Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Kingmaker wrote:
If Manticore's war economy has previously been operating on an uncoordinated basis, they're obviously not trying very hard..
Somewhere, there's a comment by David Weber somewhere that neither Haven nor Manticore had really started trying, i.e. for some reason they more or less kept their economies in peacetime mode throughout the war. This comes across as rather odd, especially on Manticore's end, where you'd think the lack of depth would make them a bit worried. Haven, at least, you could imagine not taking it seriously at first because they didn't really expect the war to be very serious.
Haven's economy was about as war-mobilized in PD 1904 as it could be, given that their actual population base consisted of a mass of exploited serf-worlds working to support an indolent, heavily populated capital. To be more productive and militarily effective they'd have needed to reform the Dolist economy first, which could NOT happen quickly, even in principle.

Manticore... yeah, as noted they really didn't have the balance of production to manpower right at any point during the first war- so they simply couldn't build warships at the fastest possible rate for lack of manpower. They fix this during the second war- but suffer enough losses to ship construction and infrastructure during Operation Thunderbolt that they still aren't producing as many ships as they could be.
Which reminds me: it's been a while since I read the early books. What reason was given for the Committee of Public Safety opting to continue the war? It seems like they would've had a fairly easy out if they wanted it.
Also, the war provided them with a pretext the people of Haven would accept for seriously reforming the education and welfare systems- for the war effort. And a pretext for refusing to listen to (or even permit the survival of) dissenters.
True. Also, Manticore is benefiting here from its Space-Dubai status: their government has a huge, effectively unassailable source of wealth that has literally nothing to do with taxing the income or wealth of its citizens.
Manticore also apparently controls some utterly ridiculous fraction of all interstellar shipping independent of the wormhole transit fees and dominates internal shipping in the Solarian League.
That is tied into Space-Dubai status, or possibly Space-Panama status. Their government has made Manticore the best possible place to register your merchant vessel, then leveraged that to ensure their crews and shipyards actually participate meaningfully in that merchant trade.
Found the Weber quote:
Link wrote:Moreover, despite the strain on their economies, there's no immediate prospect of either the Star Empire or the Republic running out of money. Before Mission of Honor, both of them are actually quite a ways short of a hundred-percent, all-out wartime mobilization of their industrial and economic sectors. I'm not saying they aren't feeling the strain; I'm simply saying that under the circumstances which obtain as of the first few pages of Mission of Honor, there's still quite a lot of "fat" in both star nations' industrial capacity.
18 years of war...
[/quote]Remember that both sides got a five year pause to rebuild their industrial capability from about 1914-1919 PD. Haven was by this point benefiting hugely from the Committee's economic and educational reforms, too.

In this round of the war, which at the time had only been going on for about two years or so... yeah, no wonder both sides aren't fully mobilized yet.

Plus, neither side's homeworld was directly touched by the first round of the war, and even the Battle of Manticore at the end of At All Costs didn't manage to do that much damage to Manticore's industrial productivity.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Batman wrote:Um-if Sphinx, which is considered rather newly settled, has a population of 2 billion, and while being nowhere as bad as Gryphon (a planet no sane person would want to live on) isn't exactly prime real estate, while Manticore itself is actually a pretty Earthlike planet-how come the system has a combined population of only 3 billion? Two thirds of your system's population live on the second prize planet? Seriously?
Not saying you're wrong, Weber's had some number goofs before, but where is the 2 billion on Sphinx figure coming from?

Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:
Even with all the personnel for her LAC squadrons on board, Minotaur carried a total company of under two thousand, which was less than most battlecruisers a seventh her size. Of course, she didn't mount the normal broadside weapons of a ship of the wall, but Smith figured that even a conventional warship's company could be cut by at least sixty percent if the same standards of automation and remotes were applied to her design. And that could have major consequences for the Navy's front line strength.
Some of the manpower and economic issues, 30 million Manties, or 1% of the population, now in uniform. That makes the total population about three billion. That tallies well with Honor Among Enemies (3.3 billion) though I'll note the Navie's numbers have doubled in less than two years.
Also note- the LACs have a crew of 10-12, so that translates into a ship's complement of, oh, 500-900 people for Minotaur herself.
Right, somewhere between a heavy and a BC.

LACs park in their tiny individual hangars nose (and guns) in. Which makes maintenance and reloading far, far easier than it otherwise would be, but strikes me as rather unsafe.
If the guns are capacitor-fed, it's relatively easy to simply disconnect them physically from their power supplies, and/or discharge the batteries from shipside, and recharge them as needed while preparing for action. So the weapons can be "safed" rather comprehensively, except perhaps when a LAC launch is imminent... the equivalent of a real carrier's window of vulnerability while loading up and fueling aircraft on its deck.
That should work.

Emily isn't exactly up to conjugal visits from her husband, but has proven remarkably tolerant of his tolerant of his affairs, easily forgiving the first secret one and not bothering with the others. He keeps these discreet, mostly to not twist the knife or make a public scandal.
Also, Manticore has registered "professional courtesans."

[Which makes me think... I wonder if, somewhere out there, there is a fanfic with White Haven and Inara from Firefly]
Nothing surprises me regarding fanfics anymore. Mind, we've known about the courtesans since book two or three, apparently Honor's mom wanted to pay for her to have a lovely night on the town with a happy ending when she graduated from the academy, but Honor was too mortified to accept.
Everyone has really chipped in to get Eighth Fleet assembled on time. Everyone except Manticore, because of ongoing logistics issues. In fact, they're planning to pull a quarter of their wallers back for emergency overhaul, and they'd pull in a lot more if they thought they could spare the ships.
Hm. A thought. If Erewhon actually participated in Eighth Fleet and (presumably) Buttercup, it means they not only had access to the Ghost Rider/MDM-pod equipment complex, but that they had operational experience observing such systems in action and maybe even operating some of them.

That would have made them all the more significant later on in the events of War of Honor.
Having read a few chapters ahead looking for quotes, I can confirm that Erewhon lent Eighth Fleet a dozen dreadnoughts. These were apparently all White Haven's DN hulls that weren't CLACS.

Word of Weber, outside the series, is that most Erewhonese ships, particularly capital ships, were purchased pre-War from Solarian shipbuilders and upgraded with Grayson compensators and Manty sensors and EW. They didn't have quite the upgrade mania of the other major Alliance partners, so they lagged a generation or two behind in those systems and their MDMs weren't much better than the eventual Peep ones. AFAIK, they produced pods aplenty but never had the facilities for capital hulls, so no Manty-standard SD(P)s or CLACs for them.

The first, tiniest whiff of Centrist domestic politics. A progressive income tax being one that takes away a larger percentage of your income the more you make, aka taxing the rich more. Apparently the Manticoran Constitution flatly forbids such taxes, as a permanent measure anyways, and provides mechanisms so it would be absurdly difficult to pass and end in short order as a default. Presumably more of the original colonists/aristos enshrining their own wealth and power.
True. Also, Manticore is benefiting here from its Space-Dubai status: their government has a huge, effectively unassailable source of wealth that has literally nothing to do with taxing the income or wealth of its citizens. For that matter, it can even further enhance that source of wealth by setting itself up as a financial hub (due to its central position in interstellar information flow) and as a haven from Solarian taxes (where applicable).

So it's at least viable for them to enact a low, flat tax and still have a working first-world economy. Sure, the rich get staggeringly rich, but they can afford to supply the necessary services to the poor without crushing the poor with a too-high tax rate.
For a couple years yet. Actually, even High Ridge didn't enact any new taxes, one gets the feeling the average Manty on the street really, really dislikes the idea.
And an inflation problem, c'est le guerre. Still, just as people at home are already starting to turn off the war's popularity they're finally hitting the point of needing to ask everyone to dig deep and help pay for the thing.
Also, GASP! Centralized economic planning!

Seriously, this makes any claim by Weber that the war was being fought 'to the death' for Manticore kind of laughable. This is... like... if the US had been able to wage World War Two without asking for noticeably more sacrifices on its own people than, say, the Vietnam War. No victory gardens, no Rosie the Riveter, no massive war bonds drives. Just... one percent of the population in the military, and a war being fought entirely in someone else's backyard.

I mean, in Britain a string of Conservative prime ministers (Chamberlain, Churchill) were quite willing to engage in central planning for World War Two- and Britain never even seriously considered not being a free market economy. After all, "central planning" doesn't mean confiscation or anything- it means coordination.

If Manticore's war economy has previously been operating on an uncoordinated basis, they're obviously not trying very hard. :D
I believe White Haven's point was something like "good luck getting Big Government to relinquish control afterwards." Which is fair and turns out to be fairly true. But yes, we're a ways short of total war here, whatever Ransom said.

Actually, this is a very sensible explanation for the breakneck pace of construction. Graysons have long depended on their orbital farms and industry, far more than Manticore can know. I do believe they've reached a point where asteroid mining is a hell of a lot safer than trying it on the surface. And with their outdated tech, everything was a lot more manpower intensive, so they have a large number of spacers rated in EVA. Give them modern tools and watch miracles happen.
Yes, assuming the modern tools can even be manufactured that fast- which is apparently where Manticore came in handy, though I wouldn't be surprised if much of that help came in the form of them purchasing tools from somewhere else and passing them on to the Graysons at or below cost. Their own domestic industry can only cover so much, and they really should be more of a trade hub than a manufacturing hub...
True and quite possible, remember the heart of the Solarian League is a skip and a hop away from Manticore through the wormhole, literally a week's total flight time. Of course, that'd make it relatively easy for a lot of Sollies to visit the Star Kingdom, vacation on Manticore etc. So you'd think they'd have much closer connections to and goodwill in the League than Haven.

The Grayson religion enshrines meeting God's Tests and examining your own assumptions, while long-lived Manticorans tend to be ridiculously secure in their beliefs, no matter what evidence you present them.
Some commentary on the US, maybe, though Weber might not have intended it that way. Having hyper-polarized politics where everyone is sure they know what they need to know is not good for your society's ability to adapt to changing circumstances.
Probably unintentional, but it works.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Pierre scowled and started to speak sharply, then made himself stop. Saint-Just's paranoia, both personal and institutional, was exactly what made him so valuable. He distrusted everybody, except— perhaps—Pierre. Actually, the Chairman wasn't too certain even about that. Yet paranoid or no, Saint-Just had given Pierre ample proof of the acuity of his perceptions . . . most of the time.

Unfortunately, Pierre had also had proof that the StateSec chief could occasionally go off on tangents all his own, and Oscar Saint-Just was not a great believer in moderation. He believed in playing safe . . . which, from his viewpoint, meant shooting anyone he suspected might even be contemplating treason. At least that way he could be sure he got any guilty parties, and if the occasional innocent got blotted out too, well, making an omelet was always hard on a few eggs.
Saint-Just's personal thoroughness and distrust of ambiguity.

"Tourville," Saint-Just confirmed. "You and I both know Cordelia planned to have him purged when she got him back to Haven—probably for trying to protect Harrington from her."

"We know we think she wanted him purged," Pierre corrected, and Saint-Just snorted a laugh.

"Rob, let's be honest with each other here. I mean, Cordelia's gone—and a damned good thing, too—so we don't have to stroke her anymore. And you and I know better than anyone else that she took a personal pleasure out of eliminating anyone she thought was an enemy."

"Yes. Yes, she did." Pierre sighed. And, he reflected, that was the big difference between her and you, wasn't it, Oscar? You're ruthless as hell, and completely willing to eliminate anyone you think is even a potential threat. I imagine you sleep a hell of a lot better than I do, too . . . but you don't actually enjoy the killing, do you?

"Damn right she did," Saint-Just said, unaware of the Chairman's thoughts. "The only reason she would have dragged him all the way to Cerberus and then back here with her was to make a big, ugly, public show trial out of it, and you can bet your ass he knew it, too. That's the real reason I sat on him and his crew for so long."
The other members of the triumvirate know that perfectly well that Ransom was planning to drop the boom on Tourville, and have a good idea why. They simply don't care for her lack of reasoning. But now Saint-Just is concerned that Ransom's obvious ill-intentions and months of questioning by StateSec will have caused Tourville to become disaffected.

The SS chief knew, probably better than anyone else in the universe, how the inability to deal with the PRH's economic woes had eaten at Rob Pierre. And truth to tell, it was the probability of a Republic-wide financial collapse which had brought Saint-Just over to Pierre's side in the first place. As Oscar Saint-Just saw it, his real job was to preserve the power and stability of the state, as the source of authority which held the People's Republic together. In sober fact, he cared less about who exercised that authority than that it be exercised well, and the Legislaturalists had failed that critical test.

Yet Pierre's determination to tackle the economy now worried him. Too many things would be happening at once, creating too many potential flare-ups of the spontaneous combustion variety. And that was the hardest kind of trouble for a security officer to prepare against, because by the very nature of things, he seldom saw it coming before the flames actually burst out.
Here's the thing about Rob Pierre. He may be terrified of the revolutionary forces he unleashed, he may be engaged in a war of conquest against people who never did anything to him and his but have wealth that they want, he may have sat at the helm of bloody purges, but he's trying. He is sincere in his desire to reform the Republic to it's former glory and economic sustainability, he is torn up inside over all the blood on his hands and desperate for some small success in his reforms to justify all he's done. But even the top banana of the People's Republic is just one man caught between massive gears with generations of inertia to overcome.

"I understand the reasoning, and I don't question the need to do something" Saint-Just said. "The timing does worry me, but that would probably be true whenever we decided to implement reforms. I guess part of it is the notion of deflating the currency and cutting the BLS simultaneously."

"Better to put all the medicine down them in one nasty-tasting dose than to string it out," Pierre disagreed. "Inflation was bad enough under the old regime; it's gotten even worse in the last few years, and it's hurting what foreign trade we've been able to maintain in Silesia and with the Sollies. As I see it, we have two options: we can go whole hog and completely nationalize the economy on the old prespace totalitarian model, or we can begin gradually phasing a true free market back in, but this half-assed socialism-by-regulation is killing us."
Rob's plan is to slash the Basic Living Stipend, while deflating Havenite currency to the point where they can begin to compete in foreign trade again. Disliking the idea of total government control of the economy when the bureaucracy still has so much dead weight, he's going to try and bring back the relatively free markets of the past, a very difficult transition.

“Most of the out-planets are in better shape for that than Haven is—they never had the percentage of Dolists we had here to begin with—and even the Nouveau Paris Mob has been reacquiring the habit of work since the war started. If we deflate the currency and reduce the BLS, we'll drag more of them into the non-military labor force, as well. And, as I say, this is probably the best time to make the attempt. I know it's risky. I simply don't see how we can avoid this particular risk."
Haven itself, and Nouveau Paris the city, have always had the most Dolists, being where the system originated and was in place the longest.

"And if we don't?" Saint-Just asked very quietly.

"If we don't, then we'll lose the war in the end, anyway," Pierre said just as quietly, his eyes suddenly distant, as if he looked at something Saint-Just couldn't see, "and that will probably be the end of you, me, and the Committee. But you know, Oscar, that might not be such a tragedy. And it certainly wouldn't be undeserved, now would it? Because if we can't manage reform that's even this basic, then we'll have failed ourselves and the Republic. Everything we've done—and all the people we've killed—since the Coup will have been for nothing. And if it was all for nothing, Oscar, then we'll deserve whatever happens to us."
Rob's guilt and need to justify his actions. When you think of it. the triumvirate (and it was a foursome so briefly I still call it that) represents four very different sorts of villains. Cordelia Ransom was bughouse crazy. Saint-Just is either a functioning sociopath or just the sort of image we have of a fussy clerk who has no problem sentencing millions to die. Rob Pierre is the well-intentioned extremist, who is now praying that his reforms can justify the hideous cost. In another story, this man might be saved, redeemed. And Admiral Cluster Bomb has many admirable qualities, unfortunately married to a personal ambition that will never let her be second-string.

"I thought I'd just enjoy it on the way to the pinnace," Tourville told him cheerfully. In fact, he suspected Honeker had realized he rather regretted adopting the damned things as a part of his image. Modern medicine might have virtually stamped out the various ills to which tobacco had once contributed, but it hadn't made nicotine any less addictive, and the ash flecks on his uniform were more than mildly annoying.
Tourville's stogies, apparently in the future they won't give him lung cancer, which seems a valid concern with prolong life expectancies.

Fortunately, there was plenty of evidence to support his innocence. In fact, he had insisted—with Honeker's strong support—on having a senior member of Hades' SS garrison return to Haven with him as a witness. Citizen Warden Tresca hadn't been happy about that, but he'd known better than to argue, particularly when he himself had downplayed Tourville's initial warnings that something must have gone very wrong aboard PNS Tepes. Tresca was going to be in sufficient hot water of his own; SS brigadier or not, he didn't need to borrow trouble by refusing the orders of a senior people's commissioner or looking like he was trying to obstruct the investigation.

And so Tourville and Honeker had arrived at Haven with Citizen Major Garfield in tow. Garfield had brought along Camp Charon's scanner data on the entire episode, as well as a recording of the com traffic between Count Tilly and Charon that clearly demonstrated Tourville had been the first to sound the alarm and had done everything in his power to prevent the tragedy. In fact, Tourville and his people had come out looking considerably better than State Security had, and Everard Honeker's reports to Oscar Saint-Just had stressed their exemplary attention to duty.
What's happened to Tourville and crew since the last book. Since they were sort of the only ones in orbit when Tepes and Ransom went boom, debriefing took a while.

Still, he reflected as the lift reached the boat bay and its doors slid silently open, with Esther McQueen as Secretary of War, the Committee's promise to halt the practice of shooting losing admirals might actually be worth believing. That was the good news.
Perhaps.

It was unusual for someone to actually be able to see more than a handful of warships simultaneously with the naked eye. Men-of-war were big, especially ships of the wall, with impeller wedges whose width was measured in hundreds of kilometers. That imposed a certain dispersal upon them underway, and they tended to stay far enough apart to clear their impeller perimeters even in parking orbit. If they didn't, then they had to maneuver clear of one another on reaction thrusters before they could bring their wedges up, and that was costly in terms of both reaction mass and time.
Wedges hundreds of kilometers across and wide.

Thirty-six super dreadnoughts, sixteen dreadnoughts, eighty-one battleships, twenty-four battlecruisers, and forty heavy cruisers, he thought wonderingly, and no one even knows they're here.

-snip-

And McQueen's done Giscard proud, he mused. The screen's light— only twenty-three destroyers and light cruisers, all told—but that's still over eight hundred million tons, and that doesn't even count the supply ships and tenders. Pile it all up in one heap, and it's got to come to more than a billion tons. In sheer tonnage terms, this has got to be the Navy's biggest concentration in fifteen or twenty years.
Twelth Fleet's final strength.

Tourville could understand that. Indeed, he felt his fingers twitch with the desire to reach for another cigar as his own eyes studied the glowing chips of light and read the names beside them. Seaforth Nine, Hancock, Zanzibar and Alizon, Suchien, Yalta, and Nuada. He knew them all ... just as he recognized the bright scarlet icon of the Basilisk System.
Icarus will involve a simultaneous, or at least same-day strike on each of these targets.

At this point first reading I was getting sort of disengaged from the series, and it was around this time that I realized something, I still cared. Not necessarily about the grand war between Haven and Manticore, but I still cared for Basilisk Station. I cared what would happen to Dame Matsuko, Major Isvarian, the rest of the NPA that struggled so long and hard in probable futility. The Medusans who, over a decade ago became the hapless pawns in an interstellar conflict they couldn't properly understand.

Everyone knew battleships couldn't fight proper ships of the wall and that battlecruisers were even more outclassed by battleships than battleships were by superdreadnoughts. Fortunately, ships of the wall usually couldn't catch battleships, and battleships usually couldn't catch battlecruisers. Unfortunately for the Royal Manticoran Navy, that rule didn't always hold true. It especially didn't hold true when the battleship's captain had the nerve to take her own impellers off-line and just sit there like a hole in space until the Manties were actually in extreme missile range. Hall had that kind of nerve, and less than a month after Citizen Rear Admiral Tourville blew out the Adler System picket, she had neatly ambushed a trio of raiding Manty battlecruisers. They hadn't had the remotest suspicion she was even there until they'd built vectors which gave them no choice, even with their superior acceleration rates, but to come into her engagement range.

RMN battlecruisers were tough customers, especially given the superiority of the Star Kingdom's EW and missiles. Many Republican officers would have hesitated to engage three of them at once, even if she did out-mass them by almost two-to-one. That, in fact, had been Citizen Commander Young's earnest recommendation. Hall hadn't taken it, however . . . and she'd blown two of her enemies right out of space. The third had gotten away, but with enough damage to keep her out of action for months, whereas Schaumberg's repairs had required only five weeks of yard time. It had been a small-scale action, but it had also been a very difficult assignment, and Diamato had been on the bridge when it all went down. Despite the Manties' numerical advantage—not to mention the two destroyers screening them—Hall had made it seem almost routine. The only people who'd appeared more confident than her of her ability to handle it had been her bridge crew (aside from Young), and as Diamato watched their crisp efficiency, he had realized something he'd never quite grasped before.

A military organization was not the best laboratory for working out the proper forms of egalitarian social theory. The defense of a society which enshrined economic and political equality had to be undertaken by an authoritarian hierarchy with the clear, sharply defined sort of chain of command that put a single person ultimately in control, for combat operations were not a task which could be discharged by committee. The fact that, even after she won the battle by doing the exact opposite of what Young had recommended, it had still taken her and Addison another seven months to overcome the old tac officer's political influence in order to get rid of him had only made that even more obvious to Diamato.
Citizen Captain Hall and her now loyal minion Citizen Commander Oliver Diamoto. And a skirmish in which a Haven BB engaged 3 Manty BCs and a couple of destroyers, destroyed two and near-crippled the lone survivor.

He'd been rather proud of the shot himself. It wasn't one that was likely to prove practical in a fleet action, of course. Walls of battle didn't take kindly to units which suddenly pitched up perpendicular to their original vectors while simultaneously rotating on their long axes and turning through a radical skew turn. Doing that usually caused Bad Things to happen when impeller wedges collided, but the sim had been a single-ship duel, not a fleet action, and the unorthodox maneuver had given him an up-the-kilt shot at his simulated opponent that had inflicted extremely heavy damage.
Wedge-on-wedge is bad mojo, so fleet formations can be cramping in the sort of maneuvers you can pull off.

"The difference here is that Citizen Secretary McQueen isn't particularly interested in tricking the enemy into doing anything. Instead, she intends to take advantage of things the enemy's already done. And unlike Thurston or Citizen Secretary Kline, she's willing to take a few risks to win. So she expects us to actually do some serious fighting when we reach our objectives, but she's picked those objectives to give us the best shot of achieving our mission goals anyway."

"But Zanzibar has been a Manty ally for almost ten T-years now," Honeker pointed out. "That's why the Alliance put its new shipyard there, and they've picketed it since before Parks took Seaforth Nine away from us."

"They certainly have," Tourville agreed, "but at the moment, they're in very much the position we were in when Thurston launched Operation Dagger, if for rather different reasons. They've got an awful big chunk of their wall of battle in for overhaul at the very moment when they're strategically overextended by their successes. That means they can't possibly be strong everywhere—just as we couldn't—because they simply don't have the ships for it. And that means that someplace like Zanzibar, which is so far behind the front, and where there have been no active operations by either side for over eight years, is going to be lightly covered. They'll have enough firepower on call to deal with a raiding battlecruiser squadron or two . . . but that's why we have three battleship squadrons along for support."
Honeker rather reasonably points out "How is this different from the plan that got us into Fourth Yeltsin?" Tourville's reply amounts to "Thurston tried to avoid the enemy's main strength, draw them off and was easily tricked into believing he had. We're in this to seek and destroy the enemy, no tricks just overwhelming firepower."

Their estimate of the Zanzibar picket, and just when the new yards were coming online too.

"Frankly," he said, "this is something we should have done years ago, Sir. We lost a lot of battleships trying to stop the Manties short of Trevor's Star, but we've still got over two hundred of them, and our superdreadnought strength has been rising again for the last T-year or so. That means we ought to be using the battleships as aggressively as possible. Since they aren't suitable for the wall of battle—and since our growing SD strength means we can finally stop putting them into it anyway—they should be committed to a strategy of deep raids. They've got the accel to run away from SDs and dreadnoughts and the firepower to squash battlecruisers. That makes them pretty damned close to the ideal tool to keep the Manties thinking about the security of their rear areas. And every ship of the wall we can force them to divert to guarding a star twenty or thirty light-years behind the front is just as much out of action as one we've blown apart. That's what Icarus is all about. What we'd prefer to do is to actually gain the initiative for the first time since the war began, but even if we don't, we should at least take the initiative away from the Manties. And that, Citizen Commissioner, is a damned sight better than anything we've managed yet!"
Tourville's thoughts on strategy, use the BBs for deep raids to draw Manty wallers off the frontline, essentially use BBs like BCs.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Ahriman238 wrote:
Batman wrote:Um-if Sphinx, which is considered rather newly settled, has a population of 2 billion, and while being nowhere as bad as Gryphon (a planet no sane person would want to live on) isn't exactly prime real estate, while Manticore itself is actually a pretty Earthlike planet-how come the system has a combined population of only 3 billion? Two thirds of your system's population live on the second prize planet? Seriously?
Not saying you're wrong, Weber's had some number goofs before, but where is the 2 billion on Sphinx figure coming from?
You, actually, though upon rechecking it's under two billion which technically could mean anything under 2 billion but suggests to me that it's closer to two than one.
A238, an April 16 and pg14 of this thread wrote: Perhaps that had been her fault, she mused. She was the one from cosmopolitan (read: crowded, stratified, smug, and obsessed with stability, she thought dryly) old Beowulf, where conspicuous contributions to population growth were more than simply frowned upon. Sphinx, on the other hand, was still a relatively new planet, with a total population of under two billion. Multichild families were the rule there, not the exception, and there was certainly no stigma attached to them.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Admiral Caparelli's two-month delivery time for Eighth Fleet's Manticoran superdreadnoughts had turned into five, which meant White Haven was almost exactly fifteen months late assembling his assigned striking force. Or would be, when the last two RMN SDs actually arrived the day after tomorrow.

And I wouldn't be up to strength now if the GSN hadn't anted up three more of its SDs to replace Manticoran ships which won't be arriving at all, he thought, looking at the staffers assembled around the briefing room table. Well, I suppose I should be grateful for small favors. At least it means I got the Harrington and one of her sisters.
Even more delay in getting Eighth Fleet ready to go, and the RMN still shorted them by three SDs.

The GSN had worked like demons to get the Harrington ready to christen on schedule. There had been a delay in the fabrication of her beta nodes, and they'd had to divert half a dozen from one of her sisters to meet their deadline, but they'd met it ... and a noticeably pregnant Allison Harrington had pressed the button that detonated the champagne bottle affixed to the ship's prow on the first anniversary, to the minute, of Grayson's receipt of INS's broadcast of Honor Harrington's execution.
That was a nice touch. Been a year since the book started.

"Our current strength estimate gives him twenty-six of the wall, twenty-eight battleships, twenty battlecruisers, thirty to forty heavy cruisers, thirty-five to forty light cruisers, and at least forty destroyers. We don't know how many LACs he may have, but Enki and DuQuesne Base were very heavily fortified prior to the war, and we have to assume they'll use missile pods to thicken their orbital launch capability. Call it a hundred and ninety hyper-capable units and six or seven times that amount of firepower in fixed defenses and/or LACs." She made a small face. "I'm sorry we can't be any closer to precise on that latter figure, Sir, but we simply don't know the present condition of their fortifications. We know they've had their own maintenance problems, and it's always possible a goodly percentage of their fixed weapons are down, but I wouldn't count on it. My own view is that if they were willing to reinforce him this heavily m mobile units, they would also have made every effort to put his permanent defenses on-line, and they've got the techs for that if they're willing to take them away from other, less important systems."
ONI estimate of Theisman's strength at Barnett.

Third Fleet's fifty-five SDs hung in San Martin orbit, permanently on guard to protect the system and the thick clutch of half-complete deep-space fortresses being assembled under their watchful eye. Eventually, half those forts would be left to cover San Martin while the other half were towed out to cover the terminus directly. They could have been finished long ago if the Peeps had done even a tiny bit less effective job of destroying San Martin's orbital industry before they gave up the system. As it was, the Alliance had been forced to ship in the equipment to build the facilities needed to assemble the prefabricated components of the bases. It was taking far longer than it should have, but current projections called for the first group of forts to be finished within six or seven T-months—at which point everyone would no doubt heave a sigh of profound relief. But for now the solid ranks of capital units held their watchful orbit, proudly protecting what had been won at such terrible cost in lives and ships, and White Haven let his eyes rest upon their icons.

He hated the sight. Not that he didn't feel a deep sense of pride whenever he saw them and remembered the savage fighting which had finally taken the system. Nor did he have anything but respect for Theodosia Kuzak, who had replaced him as CO 3 FLT on the new Trevor's Star Station. No, what he hated was the way the terminus acted as an anchor on Third Fleet. The idea had been for the conquest of Trevor's Star to free up fighting power, not glue it in place, but until the forts were ready, the Admiralty refused to reduce Third Fleet in any way.
For the time being, White Haven's old command the Third Fleet is stuck holding Trevor's Star and San Martin.

The holo above the briefing room table was very different from the one which had shown the "dead" icons of Ashford's section six months earlier. Instead, it showed the spectacular (if simulated) wreckage of three battlecruisers, twelve destroyers, and all thirty-three of the merchantmen those warships had been escorting. A tabular sidebar showed the LAC wing's own losses: six ships destroyed, eight more damaged beyond Minotaur's on-board repair capability, and lighter damage to another thirteen. The tonnage ratio was appallingly in the LACs' favor: two hundred and eighty thousand tons of LACs lost or seriously damaged in return for the complete destruction of almost four million tons of warships and a staggering quarter of a billion tons of merchant shipping.
LAC sims, so far an overwhelmingly weighted casualty/tonnage ration in favor of the LAC wing.

"In a simulation," Rear Admiral of the Green George Holderman pointed out sourly. Unlike Truman, Holderman hadn't been invited to the debrief; he'd invited himself. That was something Manticoran flag officers simply didn't do, yet no one had possessed the seniority to tell him no, and his personality had done its best to put a damper on Minotaur's mood ever since his arrival. He was one of the officers who had fought the entire LAC-carrier concept from the beginning, and he continued to fight on with dogged persistence. His own battle record was good enough to give his opinions a solid weight, and he'd become one of the leading spokesmen for the "missile-deck admirals," as the traditionalist opponents of the LACs had been dubbed. He considered the idea a worthless diversion of desperately needed resources and everyone knew it. Yet despite Admiral Adcock's best efforts, he'd possessed sufficient seniority—and allies within the service—to get himself named to head the special board empaneled to evaluate Minotaur's effectiveness.
Meet Holderman, he'll be the guy in the story whose job it is to harrumph at the LAC carrier concept and possibly object that it is "most unorthodox." Apparently even flag officers don't generally invite themselves to meetings in the RMN.

"With all due respect, Admiral," Truman said flatly, "until the Admiralty is willing to turn a LAC wing loose on a live target, the only way we can test the concept is in simulations. Where, I might add, the LACs have won every engagement to date."

Holderman's beefy face darkened as the golden-haired captain looked him straight in the eye. She hadn't cared for the fashion in which he'd bulled his way into the debrief, and she didn't particularly care for him as a human being, either. Nor did she like the way he'd begun tinkering with the simulations, convincing the umpires to incorporate "more realistic" assumptions ... all of which just happened to pare away at the LACs' advantages in speed, nimbleness, and smaller target size.
Holderman is also rigging the games.

"Yes, it's all been in simulations, Captain" he said even more flatly than she'd spoken. "And it will stay that way until this board and the Admiralty are convinced the concept merits testing in action. And, frankly, the unrealistic assumptions so far applied to the operational parameters of the exercises have done very little to convince me to recommend approval."

"Unrealistic, Sir?" Truman's blue eyes were hard, and several of her juniors glanced apprehensively at one another as they felt the thunderheads gathering. "Unrealistic in what way, if I may ask?"

"In every way!" Holderman snapped. "The exercise parameters assumed none of the escort captains assigned to it had ever encountered one of the new LACs before. They were forced to engage them in total ignorance of their actual capabilities!"

"I see, Sir." Truman cocked her head and bared her teeth in a tight almost-smile. "May I ask if any of the captains involved actually did have any knowledge of the Shrike's capabilities?"

"Of course they didn't! How could they have when it's still on the Official Secrets List?" Holderman demanded.

"An excellent point, Sir," Truman shot back. "But unless I misread my own briefing from the umpires, that was the objective of the exercise: to see how a force which had never encountered them would fare against them. Was I, perhaps, in error in that interpretation?"
Which is a pretty good point.

Rear Admiral Holderman had convinced the umpires to alter the immediately previous exercise's ground rules by giving the officers assigned to command the simulated superdreadnought division opposed to Minotaur a detailed briefing on the Shrike and its capabilities. The briefing had been a major change from the original exercise plan approved by BuShips, Admiral Adcock's BuWeaps, and the Bureau of Training, and everyone knew it had been intended to give the SDs a clear advantage. Despite that, however, both ships of the wall had been destroyed, although they had managed to take thirty of Minotaur's LACs with them and damaged another eleven. It had been the carrier's worst losses to date . . . and had still cost the defenders seventeen million tons of capital ship in return for only six hundred thousand tons of LACs. Not to mention twelve thousand crewmen as opposed to only three hundred and thirty-two from the LAC wing.
In the game before this, he gave broke the rules by giving the other side a comprehensive briefing on the LACs, and still a clear victory for Minotaur, albeit a costly one.

"It's simple enough, Jackie," Truman said with a chuckle. "He and Commodore Paget are the board's senior officers, and they've been sitting on the sim results for months. You and your people have blown the other side out of space over and over again, but they're damned if they'll admit it. Surely you've noticed that?"

"Well, yes. Of course I have," Harmon admitted.

"Then what makes you think they'll stop sitting on the results?" Truman demanded. "Worse, the two of them will go right on tinkering with the sim parameters until they manage to come up with a way for the defenders to swat your people in droves. And they're not idiots. In fact, both of them are superior conventional tacticians, however stupidly they may be acting in this instance. They will find a way, and you and I know it, because they're right about how fragile your LACs are. Sooner or later, they'll devise a setup which will require you to accept catastrophic losses to accomplish your mission. It won't have to be a reasonable scenario, or a situation likely to recur in action. All it has to do is be theoretically plausible and inflict massive losses on the wing for minimal results. Because when they pull it off, that's the exercise they'll use as the baseline for their report to the Admiralty."

-snip-

"But how will pissing them off stop them?"

"Because unless I miss my guess, Holderman is so hot right this minute that he can hardly wait to get back to Hancock Base, call in the umpires, and start twisting tomorrow's exercise like a pretzel," Truman said cheerfully. "By the time he's done, the sim's outcome will be the worst disaster for your LAC wing since Amos Parnell left a month early for the Third Battle of Yeltsin."

"And that's a good thing?" Harmon demanded, her expression aghast, and Truman chuckled.

"It's a wonderful thing, Jackie, because I've already drafted a dispatch to Admiral Adcock's attention at BuWeaps—with information copies to Admiral Caparelli, Vice Admiral Givens at BuPlan, Vice Admiral Danvers at BuShips, and Vice Admiral Tanith Hill at BuTrain—expressing my concern that the sims are being written unrealistically."

Harmon's eyes widened, for that was five of the Space Lords of the Board of Admiralty. In fact, it was all of them except for Admiral Cortez and Vice Admiral Mannock, the heads of BuPers and the Surgeon General, respectively. Truman saw her expression and smiled.

"Naturally I would never attribute intentional bias to anyone," she said piously, "but for whatever reason, I feel I've discerned a ... failure to fully and fairly examine the capabilities of the LAC-carrier concept in the last few exercises. In fact, I'm afraid the problem is becoming more pronounced, and so I've brought it to the attention of all the relevant authorities, exactly as I'm supposed to. Unfortunately, Chief Mantooth somehow neglected to forward a copy to Admiral Holderman or any other member of the evaluation board here in Hancock. A terrible oversight, of course. Doubtless the board's copies simply got lost in transit someplace."

"You mean—?" Harmon stared at her in something very like awe.

"I mean the Powers That Be are going to have ample reason to look very, very carefully at the parameters of the sims and how they came to be written as they are. And what they're going to find is a steady procession of successes by the LACs followed—hopefully— by a single, crushing, overwhelming failure. Which will cause them to look even more carefully at that particular exercise, talk to the umpires . . . and discover just how the parameters were changed, and by whom." Truman smiled nastily. "I suspect Admiral Holderman and Commodore Paget will have just a little explaining to do after that."
Setting up your superior officers, that's sneaky, nasty and pretty much exactly what I expect from Alice Truman. Imagine if she and Harkness ever touched heads on a problem.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Word of Weber, outside the series, is that most Erewhonese ships, particularly capital ships, were purchased pre-War from Solarian shipbuilders and upgraded with Grayson compensators and Manty sensors and EW. They didn't have quite the upgrade mania of the other major Alliance partners, so they lagged a generation or two behind in those systems and their MDMs weren't much better than the eventual Peep ones. AFAIK, they produced pods aplenty but never had the facilities for capital hulls, so no Manty-standard SD(P)s or CLACs for them.
They may still have some of the equipment with war-era Manticoran computers and possibly the high-density fusion bottles- which are the things Solarian technical representatives were having trouble duplicating, and providing Haven a basis for reverse-engineering the technologies at the foundation of the Manticoran tech advantage.
I believe White Haven's point was something like "good luck getting Big Government to relinquish control afterwards." Which is fair and turns out to be fairly true. But yes, we're a ways short of total war here, whatever Ransom said.
I sense in this an aristocrat's fear of the only thing big enough to stop him- Big Government. ;)
True and quite possible, remember the heart of the Solarian League is a skip and a hop away from Manticore through the wormhole, literally a week's total flight time. Of course, that'd make it relatively easy for a lot of Sollies to visit the Star Kingdom, vacation on Manticore etc. So you'd think they'd have much closer connections to and goodwill in the League than Haven.
Beowulf, literally on the other side of the wormhole, does. The rest of the League... it seems to vary. Remember that on the other side of the balance, the Solarians think of the Manticorans as "those bastards who tax all our traffic through the Junction and eat into our companies' trading position." There may be a fair number of individual Solarian private citizens who live close enough to Beowulf to have visited Manticore and like it there, but the Solarian planetary and federal government aren't going to share the same views necessarily.
Ahriman238 wrote:The other members of the triumvirate know that perfectly well that Ransom was planning to drop the boom on Tourville, and have a good idea why. They simply don't care for her lack of reasoning. But now Saint-Just is concerned that Ransom's obvious ill-intentions and months of questioning by StateSec will have caused Tourville to become disaffected.
Now see, this is more or less my point about Ransom. She's not completely nuts, but she's clearly acting in a way that really efficient, ruthless dictators and secret policemen think is overly personal and irrational.
Tourville's stogies, apparently in the future they won't give him lung cancer, which seems a valid concern with prolong life expectancies.
If you recall Honor of the Queen, supposedly they have a "vaccine" against lung cancer. Good luck figuring out how that works.
Fortunately, there was plenty of evidence to support his innocence. In fact, he had insisted—with Honeker's strong support—on having a senior member of Hades' SS garrison return to Haven with him as a witness. Citizen Warden Tresca hadn't been happy about that, but he'd known better than to argue, particularly when he himself had downplayed Tourville's initial warnings that something must have gone very wrong aboard PNS Tepes. Tresca was going to be in sufficient hot water of his own; SS brigadier or not, he didn't need to borrow trouble by refusing the orders of a senior people's commissioner or looking like he was trying to obstruct the investigation...
What's happened to Tourville and crew since the last book. Since they were sort of the only ones in orbit when Tepes and Ransom went boom, debriefing took a while.
Also, we note that an SS general is still potentially threatened by obstructing the orders of a People's Commissioner responsible for riding herd on a rear admiral.
Citizen Captain Hall and her now loyal minion Citizen Commander Oliver Diamoto. And a skirmish in which a Haven BB engaged 3 Manty BCs and a couple of destroyers, destroyed two and near-crippled the lone survivor.
Captain Hall, she like to say "boo!" :D

Hall is... kinda played up as Honor's counterpart on the opposite side of the line; there are some eerie parallels between their experiences at Hancock.
Tourville's thoughts on strategy, use the BBs for deep raids to draw Manty wallers off the frontline, essentially use BBs like BCs.
Well, sort of. Basically, the Havenites have so many battleships that they can easily use them to secure systems against battlecruiser raids. The RMN does NOT have so many dreadnoughts that they can easily use them to secure systems against battleship raids.
Ahriman238 wrote:Meet Holderman, he'll be the guy in the story whose job it is to harrumph at the LAC carrier concept and possibly object that it is "most unorthodox." Apparently even flag officers don't generally invite themselves to meetings in the RMN.
Since a debriefing is meant to be an orderly means by which the officers actually involved in an operation can analyze what happened, learn from any mistakes made, and form coherent conclusions to present to higher authority... yeah, there are good reasons not to let people crash the meeting.
Setting up your superior officers, that's sneaky, nasty and pretty much exactly what I expect from Alice Truman. Imagine if she and Harkness ever touched heads on a problem.
Truman is an expert at naval politicking and bureaucratic judo, probably due to her being a Navy girl from a long line of Navy officers and part of a highly connected family.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Mr Bean »

Ahriman238 wrote:
Setting up your superior officers, that's sneaky, nasty and pretty much exactly what I expect from Alice Truman. Imagine if she and Harkness ever touched heads on a problem.
Also scarily accurate to real life, any research project pretty much exactly like the after school special movie. There is always someone shoving their head in who has no idea what's going on and hates the entire research team.

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Starting with Second Seabring and Second Hancock, though a bit of Tourville's thoughts as his task force approaches Zanzibar.
His gravitic sensors had picked up the FTL hyper footprint, but at anything over two or three light-minutes, even the best sensors couldn't tell much about the sizes or numbers of ships which had created any given footprint. He needed individual impeller signatures before he could make that sort of estimate, and he waited patiently for the newcomers to light off their drives.

-snip-

Then again, he reflected, the duration figure on the footprint would almost have to indicate a multiship transit, now wouldn't it? Hmmm . . .
Limitations on hyperfootprint detection at any real range, duration gives an idea that it's multi-ship but a precise count is impossible without a nearby sensor platform or active wedges.

There had once been plans to provide Seaford with an FTL sensor shell as good as any other Manticoran fleet base outside the home system, but somehow those plans had gone awry. Personally, Gaines suspected the paperwork was simply lost somewhere in the bowels of BuShips' Logistics Command. He'd always figured Logistics was the closest humankind was ever likely to come to producing a genuine black hole, because any work orders or parts requests that came within shouting distance of it were doomed to be sucked in, mangled, and forever vanish from the known universe.

Of course, he could be wrong in this instance. Despite the mammoth orbital facilities the Peeps had put in before Sir Yancey Parks took the system away from them, Seaford had never had all that high a priority for the Royal Manticoran Navy. BuShips and BuWeaps had spent a year or two going absolutely wild over the opportunity to get a detailed look inside the Peeps' tech establishment. But once they'd finished crawling through every nook and cranny of the repair bases and parts storage depots and asteroid smelters, and inspecting the contents of the magazines, and carting off samples of the latest Peep computer hardware, the Star Kingdom really hadn't had all that much use for the base.

Oh, it was bigger than Hancock. In theory, the RMN could have taken over the old Peep shipyards and used them for its own construction programs. And if the Star Kingdom didn't want to do that, even the limited portions of the repair facilities it had chosen to crew could have supported a considerably larger local defense force than Hancock Station did. Unfortunately, Seaford Nine's equipment was crap compared to Manticoran hardware, and the system had no local population or even habitable planets. Upgrading the yard to Alliance standards and shipping in a work force large enough to operate it would have cost almost as much as it would have cost to build new building slips from scratch, and the system itself was badly placed as a major defensive node. Hancock was in a much better position for that, and the only reason Parks had wanted Seaford in the first place was to eliminate its threat to the long-haul Manticore-Basilisk hyper route and deny the Peeps a springboard against Hancock, Zanzibar, Alizon, Yorik, or any of the other Allied systems in the area.

Plans had been drawn at one point to upgrade at least the repair portion of the system's infrastructure to Manticoran standards despite the cost, and those plans were taken out and dusted off periodically. But the Navy was stretched too tight to make the project worthwhile. The Admiralty had acknowledged that months ago when it began pulling out picket ships for refit at Hancock or the home system without bothering to replace them. If there was anyplace the Star Kingdom had decided it could do without, Seaford Nine was it. And so there wasn't really very much here: a fairly good-sized caretaker detachment of techs to keep the huge, mostly empty main repair base more-or-less operational, two squadrons of heavy cruisers, and a reinforced division of superdreadnoughts, supported by a half-squadron of battlecruisers and a couple of destroyers. And, of course, one Lieutenant Heinrich Gaines, Senior Officer Commanding Her Majesty's Sensor Station, Seaford Nine.
A brief history of what happened when Seaford Nine was taken. The excitement at getting to take apart Peep hardware and learn their secrets, the disappointment when they learned how much of it was crap and how much work it would take to bring the facilities up to their standards. Ending in it becoming a dead-end picket.


The total destruction of Yeargin's task force had shaken the Royal Manticoran Navy to the core, however little it cared to admit it, because Peeps weren't suppose to be able to do things like that. Not to them. The official Board of Inquiry had delivered its verdict six months ago, following its painfully emotionless analysis of Yeargin's (many) mistakes with a scathing condemnation of the mindset which had let her make them. The Board had pulled no punches, and that was good. The last thing the Fleet needed was some whitewash which would allow other station commanders to make the same mistakes. Yet the report had its downside, as well, for in its wake, some officers had become more terrified of being labeled "unprepared" or "insufficiently offensive-minded" or "lacking in the initiative properly expected from a flag officer" than they were of dying.

And Elvis Santino had just proved he was one of those terrified officers. Worse, he had been caught unprepared, and insufficiently offensive-minded, and lacking in initiative . . . and whatever he chose to admit to his staff, inside he knew he had. Which only made his terror worse . . . and his desperate determination to prove he hadn't been still stronger.
Some of the after-effects of Tourville's pod-surprise punch-out of the Adler picket. On the one hand, it helped knock a lot of complacency off of various station commanders, on the downside now everyone is terrified of the career consequences of not being ready for an attack, like this guy.


"Sir, it doesn't matter if our pods have an edge if they have enough more of them than we do," she said as reasonably as she could. "And—"

"You're relieved, Commander," Santino grated. "I need advice and some offensive spirit here, not cowardice."
Santino summarily relives the only sane woman for suggesting they evacuate the base and get while the getting is good.

"What the hell do they think they're doing?" he muttered.

"They think they're going to 'distract' the enemy," a drained-sounding soprano said from beside him, and he turned his head quickly. The dark-haired, hawk-faced woman wore a skinsuit with commander's insignia and the name jaruwalski, andrea on its breast, and her eyes were the weariest, most defeated-looking eyes Gaines had ever seen.

"What do you mean, 'distract'?" he asked her, and she turned her head to look at him with a considering air. Then she shrugged.

"Are you familiar with the term 'For the honor of the flag,' Lieutenant?"

"Of course I am," he replied.

"Do you know where it came from?"

"Well, no ... no, I don't," he admitted.

"Back on Old Earth, one of the old wet navies had a tradition," Jaruwalski said distantly, returning her eyes to the display. "I can't remember which one it was, but it was way back before they even had steam ships. It doesn't matter." She shrugged. "The point is, that when one of their captains found himself up against an enemy he was afraid of engaging or figured he couldn't fight effectively, he'd fire a single broadside—frequently on the disengaged side, so as to avoid pissing the enemy off so badly they shot back—and then haul down his flag as quickly as he could."

"Why?" Gaines asked, fascinated somehow despite the disaster brewing in the display.

"Because hauling down his flag was the same as striking a wedge is today," Jaruwalski said in that same detached voice. "It was a signal of surrender. But by firing a broadside first—'for the honor of the flag'—he covered himself against the charge of cowardice or surrendering without a fight."

"He—? That's the stupidest thing I ever heard of!" Gaines exclaimed.

"Yes, it was," she agreed sadly. "And it hasn't gotten any less stupid today."
So still evacuating the base, but Santonio will try and intercept the Peeps, kick a long-range broadside at them and run using the compensator accel advantage rather than not expose his command to risk and be labeled a coward for fleeing his station without a shot fired.


"They must think they can hit us with one or two heavy salvos, then pull away with their compensator advantage," Citizen Commander Levitt said quietly, and Shalus nodded.

She could scarcely believe anyone—especially a Manty—could be that stupid even when she saw it happening, yet it was the only explanation for their antics. They'd come to meet her decelerating task force, then executed a turnover of their own. The range was coming down on six and a half million kilometers, and her overtake speed had reduced to only four hundred kilometers per second. She could never overtake them if they chose to go to a maximum safe acceleration, which meant they were deliberately allowing her to edge into range of them.

Are they that confident of the superiority of their systems? she wondered. Nothing in our intelligence briefings indicates that they ought to be . . . but, then, we don't know all there is to know about their R&D, now do we? But I simply cant believe they could possibly have a big enough tactical advantage to justify letting us into range! At max, they cant have more than forty-five or fifty pods on tow . . . and I've got three hundred and twenty-eight!

"Dead meat," she heard someone mutter behind her, and nodded.
Icarus will be a general exception to Peeps seeing something off and just assuming the opposition are idiots or insane or something similar. Relative pod numbers.


The People's Navy's missiles were less individually capable than the RMN's, with slightly shorter range, but to make up for it, each of their pods had sixteen launchers to the Manticorans' ten. Now all of them vomited their birds, and TF 12.1's internal launchers sent another fifteen hundred along with them. All together, over six thousand seven hundred missiles went screaming towards the outnumbered Manticoran task force.

*********************************************

Elvis Santino clung to his command chair arms with white knuckles, his eyes pits of horror as he saw the solid wall of missile icons streaking towards him. It wasn't possible. He knew it wasn't. But it was happening, and he heard orders crackling over the com link to Hadrian's command deck as Captain Tasco fought frantically to save his ship.

Lieutenant Commander Uller, Santino's acting ops officer after Jaruwalski's eviction, barked the command to flush their own pods without Santino's orders, but the Manticoran response seemed feeble in the face of the Peep tsunami, and Santino closed his eyes, as if he could somehow evade his hideous responsibility by shutting the sight away.

ONI had warned him, and so had Jaruwalski, but he hadn't believed it. Oh, he'd heard the reports, nodded at the warnings, but he hadn't believed. He'd seen the Manticoran missile storm loosed upon the Peeps, but he had never seen an answering storm front, and somewhere deep down inside him, he'd believed he never would. Now he knew he'd been wrong.

Yet he'd been almost right, after all; he would only see it once.
Foolish man, bringing a mere 900 bird salvo to a contemporary missile duel. Confirmation of 16-missile pods from Haven.

ONI was wrong, Jaruwalski thought detachedly. They said the Solly systems had probably improved the Peeps' point defense by fifteen percent; it's got to be closer to twenty. And their penaids must be better than we thought, too. Of course, with that many incoming birds to swamp the systems—

Her detached thoughts froze as the Peep missiles reached attack range. Santino's desperate point defense had thinned them, but no force as small as his could possibly have killed enough of those missiles to make any difference. Almost four thousand of them survived to attack, and a holocaust of bomb-pumped X-ray lasers ripped and tore at impenetrable impeller bands, all-too-penetrable side walls . . . and the wide open bows and sterns of Santino's wedges.
Max-range launch of 6700 missiles, the Manties stop 2700. And killed one SD and seriously damaged, maybe killed, a second. Haven point-defense gets a nearly 20% boost in effectiveness from Sollie hardware and software.


Santino's return fire hadn't been entirely futile, she saw. A single Peep SD blew apart as violently as his own flagship had, and a second reeled out of formation, her wedge down, shedding lifepods and wreckage. But the rest of the Peep armada didn't even hesitate. It just kept driving straight ahead, and she looked away at last as the missile batteries which had massacred men and women she had known and worked with for over two T-years came into range of the orbital facilities. Old-fashioned nuclear warheads bloomed intolerably bright as the enemy fleet methodically blew the abandoned, defenseless installations into half-vaporized wreckage, and Andrea Jaruwalski felt old and beaten and useless as she turned her back upon the hideous plot at last and made her way from Cantrip's CIC.
TF 12.1 (the Peep attackers) demolish the old repair yard at Seaford Nine. Which were never updated for the Manties' needs anyway.

Rear Admiral Holderman had leaned on the umpires hard, and the result had been an order for the LACs to make their approach on Hancock Base without utilizing their stealth systems at all. They could come in at whatever acceleration they liked, on whatever vector they wished, from a starting point that would be completely their own choice. But they could not take advantage of a single aspect of their powerful EW suites on the approach. Worse, the umpires had decided to reduce their active missile defenses' efficiency by forty percent in order to "reflect probable enemy upgrades in scan data enhancement and fire control," which was bullshit if Smith had ever heard it.

But at least they'd get to try it in real space, not the simulators, he reminded himself. If nothing else, that would prevent Holderman and his merry band from fudging the exercise's parameters still further once it was actually underway—and Scooter Smith wouldn't put even that past this bunch.
Holderman's newest twist for the next exercise, rather ham-fisted, particularly as we're about to see how good LAC stealth systems are.

"In the end, missile engagements come down to numbers, Citizen Commissioner," she said, "because probability theory plays no favorites. Differences in electronics warfare, jammers, and decoys can divert fire from a target, thus reducing the number of birds which become actual threats, but if a missile achieves lock, and if it retains maneuver time on its drive, only active defenses can stop it."

She paused for a moment, and Penevski nodded to show she was following her.

"Any ship, or squadron, or task force has only a finite active antimissile capability," Kellet resumed, "and that capability is defined by the interplay of scanner sensitivity, the sophistication of the defenders' fire control and supporting ECCM, and the effectiveness and numbers of the weapons systems the defender can bring to bear upon incoming fire.

"Since the war began, the Manties have held a considerable advantage in scanners, fire control, and ECCM. Their missiles' onboard seekers and penaids are also better than ours, but that's a separate issue and harder to quantify, anyway. Our countermissiles and laser clusters are roughly comparable to theirs, and it appears that we do a little better job with our main battery energy weapons when we use them in counter-missile mode, as well. But the Manties' electronics superiority, coupled with their previous monopoly on the missile pod, has given them a very substantial edge in missile engagements.

"But now our Solly . . . associates have helped us upgrade our electronics and reduce their superiority in that area from probably a thirty to thirty-five percent or so advantage to no more than fifteen or sixteen percent. Even more importantly, however, we can now swamp their fire control with massive salvos, just as they've been doing to us ever since the Battle of Hancock.
When you think about it, the People's Commissioners are wonder tools of exposition. Having a clueless civilian on the bridge whose decisions matter and thus needs everything explained is a much better way of setting up infodumps than Weber's usual technique of just breaking out into it.

Traditionally the Manties have enjoyed a 30-35% advantage in stopping missiles, now cut down to 15-16% by the Sollie tech-transfers. Peeps actually have a slightly better track record at using their broadside energy mounts for point defense, though you'll see slowly there are downside even to that.

Intelligence estimates that the Manties have a maximum of a heavy battle squadron, with screen, waiting for us— call it twelve SDs, maybe the same number of battlecruisers, and twenty or thirty cruisers and destroyers. Assuming previous engagements are any meterstick, they'll choose a compromise between the maximum numbers of pods they can tow and their acceleration curves. They don't like to reduce their max accel, so their super-dreadnoughts will be good for ten to twelve pods each, but their battlecruisers will probably have a maximum of four on tow, with perhaps two more for each heavy cruiser. Taking the worst case estimate, then, they'll have a hundred forty-four behind the SDs, forty-eight behind the battlecruisers, and call it thirty-two behind heavy cruisers.
Manticoran picket strength at Hancock Station, neglecting Minotaur. You can tow pods inside a wedge at the cost of sharply limiting their numbers, but they won't hurt your accel until you kick them loose before firing. I suspect they require different tractors for work within the wedge, otherwise with hundreds of cubic kilometers to play with and pods no more than 94 meters long, they could carry a lot more than 12 to an SD, 4 to a BC and 2 for a CA.

"That gives them two hundred twenty-four pods, with a total missile load of about twenty-two hundred. We on the other hand, have a lot more tractor capability than they do, and the new Mars-class heavy cruisers have more brute impeller strength than their compensators can handle anyway."

She chose not to complicate her little lecture by explaining that that was because the People's Navy had hoped that either they would have captured intact samples of the Manties' new inertial compensator technology or that their Solarian suppliers would have figured out how they worked by now. Neither had happened, which left the Mars-class ships ridiculously overpowered. But that had its good points, as well. For one thing, they could lose quite a few beta nodes before their maximum attainable acceleration dropped. For another, they could tow twice as many pods as a Manty Star Knight could for the same acceleration loss. And as far as the People's Navy knew, the Manties didn't yet have a clue that that was the case. Of course, if they'd had the compensator efficiency the Manties had, they could have towed three times as many pods, but who knew? The Republic might yet manage to acquire that efficiency somehow, and then . . .
Don't all impeller craft have capabilities far beyond what their compensators limit them to? Ah well, Peep Mars-class built overpowered in the futile hope they could duplicate Grayson compensators, but the plus side is they can tow twice as many pods as a Manty CA without getting slowed down.

"What all that means, Ma'am," she went on, shaking off the reflexive thoughts, "is that we'll be going in with twelve pods behind each battleship and six behind each heavy cruiser. It'll reduce our max acceleration substantially—by about twenty percent for the cruisers—but it will give us four hundred fifty-six pods and well over seven thousand missiles in our opening salvo. Which," she smiled again, with that same pearlescent ferocity, "is the reason I'm so looking forward to the Second Battle of Hancock."
An even bigger opening salvo for a moderate reduction in acceleration. I'm starting to think the Peeps are overcompensating after so much time spent on the receiving end of fuckoff-huge missile swarms.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

So still evacuating the base, but Santonio will try and intercept the Peeps, kick a long-range broadside at them and run using the compensator accel advantage rather than not expose his command to risk and be labeled a coward for fleeing his station without a shot fired.
The one for the flag thing is a real thing. And Ironically, if CS Forrester is to be believed anyway, was a frequently a french thing. Which of course is who the Haven officers discussing how stupid it was were based on. :)
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Actually it was Manties in one of the few cruisers detached to escort the civilians out, but your point is otherwise taken.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

In keeping with that recommendation, she'd also argued that the retention of their own ships' full acceleration capability was more important than putting the maximum possible number of pods in space. That liveliness in maneuver, after all, was the one advantage battleships held over ships of the wall, and she refused to throw it away. So rather than tow the pods astern, she'd suggested, they should take a page from the Manties' book in the Fourth Battle of Yeltsin and tractor the pods inside the wedges of their battleships, where they would have no effect on their acceleration curves. Their battlecruisers could tractor only two pods inside their wedges, and the heavy cruisers and destroyers lacked the tractors and wedge depth to tractor any inside at all, but that was fine with her.

Some of the squadron ops officers had hit the deckhead at the very suggestion, but she had simply waited them out with a cold, almost mechanical patience. And when the hubbub had settled, she'd pointed out that battleships had been designed as general purpose workhorses, which meant, among other things, that they had more tractors on a ton-for-ton basis than any other ship type in the Republican order of battle. Each of them could tractor eleven pods— more than most superdreadnoughts, actually—tight in against their hulls. That meant that when they actually deployed them, they could still put over forty-two hundred missiles into space at once, with another three hundred eighty from the battlecruisers. In the meantime, their entire task force's ability to maneuver at full acceleration would not only make them fleeter of foot but might actually convince the defenders that they hadn't brought along any pods until it was too late.
Battleships can carry eleven pods, and BCs two, inside the wedge where they won't foul with the accel until they're kicked loose. Mind, now they're saying the cruisers and tin cans can't do that due to lack of wedge depth.


Karen Lowe was an excellent astrogator, but a hyper voyage this long provided a great deal of scope for minor astrogation errors to produce major results. Overshooting their intended n-space translation point wouldn't be all that terrible . . . unless, of course, they overshot it too badly. A ship which attempted to translate out of hyper inside a star's hyper limit couldn't. As long as it made the attempt within the outer twenty percent of the hyper limit, all that happened was that it couldn't get into n-space. If it made the attempt any further in than that, however, Bad Things happened. Someone had once described the result as using a pulse cannon to fire soft-boiled eggs at a stone wall to see if they would bounce. Lester Tourville rather doubted they would, and even if he was wrong, it was a proposition he had no desire at all to test firsthand.

And that was what made the nervous serpent shift and slither in his belly as the digital display counted down towards the translation, because after a voyage of over a light-century and a half, it would take an error of only one five-millionth of a percent to give them all an egg's-eye view of that stone wall. He trusted Citizen Commander Lowe implicitly . . . but he couldn't quite shut his mind off when it yammered about teeny-tiny errors and misplaced decimal points.
What happens if you try and come out of hyper inside a hyper-limit. Mostly nothing happens, but if you wind up deep enough inside the well you go splat. Of course, a minor drop-out and correction from a short distance out would negate a lot of that risk, but add in the risk of detection.

The system's G4 primary had a hyper limit of just over twenty light-minutes, the planet Zanzibar orbited it at nine light-minutes, and their course had been chosen to drop them into n-space at the limit's closest approach to the planet. All of which meant that if Lowe hit her translation point exactly right, they should drop into n-space almost exactly eleven and a half light-minutes from their target. And with an initial velocity of 14,390 KPS and a maximum fleet acceleration of 450 gravities, they could reach Zanzibar's orbit in one hundred and sixteen minutes. They'd be moving at over forty-five thousand KPS when they crossed it, and decelerating and coming back to tidy up would be a time-consuming pain, but the advantages of a high-speed pass more than compensated. Even if the Manties and Zanzibarans were there in sufficient strength to stand and fight, his velocity would be such as to make their engagement window very brief. And whatever happened, his units would pass close enough to the planet to take out its orbital installations with missiles without hitting too many neutral merchantmen ... or the planet itself.
Tourville and Foraker's plan for Zanzibar amounts to a drive-by shooting.

He shuddered. He would never forgive himself if he let something like that happen. But more important than any personal guilt he might feel, however traumatic, violation of the Eridani Edict's ban on indiscriminate planetary bombardment was the one thing guaranteed to bring the Solarian League Navy down on any star nation like a hammer. There wouldn't be any internal Solarian debate, no arguments or resolutions or declarations, for none would be needed. Enforcement of the Eridani Edict had been part of the League's fundamental law for five hundred and three years, and the League Navy's standing orders were clear: any government or star nation or rogue mercenary outfit which indiscriminately bombarded an inhabited planet or directed a bombardment of any sort against a planetary population which had not first been summoned to surrender would be destroyed.

It was probably the closest the Sollies would ever come to a clear-cut foreign policy decision, at least in his lifetime, Tourville reflected. But it was one they came by naturally . . . and one they had implemented five times since 1410 p.d.

The first two centuries after the Warshawski sail had rendered interstellar warfare practical had seen more than their share of atrocities, including ruthless attacks on defenseless planetary populations. It had been bad enough then; with the weapons available now, it would be far worse. A single superdreadnought—for that matter, even a single battlecruiser—could exterminate every city, town, and village on any planet once the target's defenses had been suppressed. These days, they could do it with kinetic missile strikes, duplicating on a far grander scale the so-called "Heinlein Maneuver" Old Earth's rebellious colonists had employed in the Lunar Revolt of 39 a.d. The Lunar rebels had settled for dropping cargo shuttles loaded with rock into Old Earth's gravity well; a missile capable of eighty or ninety thousand gravities of acceleration was incomparably more effective than such crude, improvised weapons. And a kinetic strike would do minimal damage to the rest of a planet and leave it suitably empty for the attacker's own colonists.

Except that the Solarian League, having experienced the bitter horrors of trying to clean up after such an atrocity on one of its member worlds, had not only unilaterally issued the Eridani Edict but incorporated it as Amendment Ninety-Seven of the League Constitution. Seven billion human beings had died in the Epsilon Eridani Massacre. The Solarians had not forgotten them, even today, and no one who was still in shouting distance of sanity wanted to remind them once again and bring the League Navy down on his head by violating the edict.
The Eridani Edict and relevant history. I'm blanking on any Heinlein works that would make dropping rocks "the Heinlein Maneuver" so I'll probably feel really dumb when someone points it out to me.

Thirty-plus battleships, ten or twelve heavy cruisers, and a half-dozen destroyers, she thought, fingers drumming nervously on the arm of her command chair. Individually, nothing in that force could stand up to Rear Admiral Truitt's superdreadnoughts; collectively, they could demolish everything Truitt had in twenty minutes of close action. They'd get hurt in the process, but they could do it. And their low acceleration made her wonder if they'd need even twenty minutes ... or get hurt all that badly. They had to be towing heavy loads of pods to account for that acceleration, and Adler had proved Peep missile pods were not to be taken lightly.
Back to Hancock, with TF 12.3's strength given.

"Yes, Ma'am! We're loading the mags with war shots now. We'll be ready to launch in four minutes."
Less than ten minutes to swap out a Shrike’s missile loads.

Minotaur had swept in from the side, angling to cross the Peeps' course well behind them. Her EW was the best in the RMN, which (presumably) meant the best in space, at least for the moment, and she was using it for all she was worth. Not that the Peeps would worry too much if they did see her. She would cross directly astern of them in a little over twelve minutes, but she would also be something like eight million kilometers from them, well beyond effective missile range, especially for missiles trying to overtake them from astern.

Of course, there were a few other things the Peeps didn't know about. Like the ninety-six LACs which had launched from the big carrier over half an hour ago and darted away on a radically divergent course. Their impellers were far more powerful than any previous LAC's, but they were still much weaker than any conventional warship's. Coupled with their EW, that let them move at almost five hundred gravities and remain undetected at a range as low as thirty light-seconds. They could probably get even closer than that under ideal circumstances—like against Peep-quality sensors manned by people who had no idea they existed.
Stealth. In particular, where most ships are restricted to a hundred gravs or less of acceleration if they want to hide the wedge from across the system, the LACs can accel/decal as quickly as most cruisers while under stealth. 30 light-seconds being the maximum range at which the Peeps could theoretically spot them.

Passing that suggestion had worried her. Not the mechanics of the transmission; Minotaur had been within less than two light-seconds of one of the FTL com platforms, easily close enough to hit it with a whisker laser and let it transmit her message in-system. Nor had she worried about the Peeps detecting the grav-pulse message and realizing someone was behind them. By now they had to be able to recognize such transmissions—any decent gravitic sensor could detect them; the trick was learning how to generate them ... or read them—but the entire FTL scanner net had been yammering away with enough data transmissions to hide a broadcast of the annual Address from the Throne in the background chatter.
The Peeps know all about FTL comms by now, but that doesn't mean they can read them. So Truman is able to tell Truitt the plan, one in which the Peeps will encounter the LACs, Truitt's task force and Minotaur's first salvo of MDMs all within the space of a few minutes.

"Anything from the Flag?" he asked.

"No, Citizen Captain," the com officer replied, and he turned towards Tactical.

"Why did the flagship bring her EW on-line?" he demanded.

"I don't know, Citizen Captain," the tac officer replied.
I'll give you a hint, Peep, because I like you. When the lead ship does any of the following: raises shields, starts their EW suites, or starts putting out chaff as applicable, you don't stand around asking silly question, you do what they're doing. Then you can ask what's up, but ask them not your juniors.

Ninety-six LACs fired ninety-six grasers within the space of barely two seconds. Their angle of closure was too broad for them to get shots up the open after aspects of the Peep ships' impeller wedges, but they weren't shooting at ships. They were firing at missile pods, and they killed ninety-three of them in the first salvo.

The pods were utterly defenseless, following docilely along behind their mother ships, and grasers which could blast through a ship of the wall's armor ripped them to splinters with dreadful ease. When a weapons-grade energy beam hit a target, it didn't melt that target. The energy transfer was too enormous, too sudden. Natural alloy or synthetics, ceramics or human flesh, it vaporized explosively, literally blowing itself apart with fearsome force, and some of the first salvo's targets' sister pods succumbed to proximity damage as fragments blasted into them like old-fashioned prespace armor-piercing shot.

But the LACs weren't counting on that sort of fortuitous kills. Their fire control lashed the other pods viciously, despite the fact that the laser emissions were giving the Peeps' targeting beacons of their own, and a second fusillade of grasers ripped out even as the Shrikes' missiles tubes went to maximum rate fire.
For an Alpha Strike, the LACs take out most of TF 12.3's pods, which is going to be mighty awkward when Admiral Truit and the defenders arrive. They also fire missiles into the Peeps' formation. Honorverse energy weapons are energetic enough to vaporize, well, essentially any material that might get in their way.

The Manticoran missiles came howling down on their targets, in final acquisition before more than a handful of counter-missiles could launch, and laser clusters and main energy mounts vomited beamed energy in a desperate effort to pick them off. PNS Alcazar, senior ship of the task force's understrength destroyer screen, took a direct main battery hit, squarely amidships, from Tascosa. The battleship was only trying to protect herself, but Alcazar was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the hapless ship blew up with all hands as the massive graser ripped contemptuously through her sidewall.
Blue-on-blue as a Peep battleship turns it's energy weapons to point-defense and accidentally one-hit kills a member of it's own destroyer screen.

Reaction thrusters flared, pushing LAC Wing One's bows sideways with old-fashioned brute power. It was slow and ponderous compared to maneuvering on impellers, but it let them maintain their powerful bow sidewalls as they simultaneously turned and rolled to present the bellies of their wedges to the enemy.

Jacquelyn Harmon watched the maneuver with fierce elation. That asshole Holderman might have hung them up out here for months while he tried to sabotage Operation Anzio, but at least his machinations had given her people plenty of time to train. They were reacting like veterans, bringing themselves far enough around to deny the Peeps down-the-throat shots so they could go in pursuit, and she felt herself leaning forward against her shock frame as if to physically urge Harpy on.
One way around not being able to maneuver under impeller with a bow wall up, is to use old fashioned chemical thrusters. All ships have them for docking maneuvers and emergencies, but they mean so much more with the small mass of an LAC. At least Holderman's rigged scenarios really were good training.

All nine missiles were locked onto a single target, and they had not only plenty of power for terminal attack maneuvers but a straight shot directly up the after aspect of its wedge. Two of them actually detonated inside the wedge, and the other seven all detonated at less than eight thousand kilometers. The hedgehog pattern of their X-ray lasers enveloped the stern of PNS Mohawk in a deadly weave of energy, and the battleship's after impeller room blew apart, and her wedge faltered. Unfortunately, however, it didn't fail . . . and every man and woman aboard her died almost instantly as one laser scored a direct hit on her inertial compensator and two hundred gravities smashed the life from them like an enraged deity's mace.
Minotaur's MDMs arrive and kill a BB by compensator failure. Ouch. Sadly, it will be less effective as they can track future salvos in and Minnie's only got the nine tubes.

Truitt's task group had reversed acceleration, charging to meet the Peeps now that their pods had been mostly destroyed, and his own pods launched as he entered attack range. They flew straight into the Peeps' faces, and ships slewed wildly as they tried to turn the vulnerable throats of their wedges away from the incoming fire. But that turned them almost directly away from Harmon's LACs, exposing their vulnerable after aspects, and her people had turned far enough away that they were no longer crossing their own "T"s for the enemy. That meant they'd been able to take down their bow walls, unmasking their missile tubes once more

"Reengage with missiles! Flush the reserves now!" she ordered over the wing command channel, and the missiles she'd held back from the initial attack for just this moment went roaring out.
The LACs did hold back some missiles, just for this moment when the Peeps present them with open kilts to evade Truitt.

Her tac people could find them now that they'd made their presence felt and brought their wedges up, but their decoys and jammers were hellishly effective for such small vessels. Locking them up for fire control should have been easy at this short range, but it wasn't. Worse, they were splitting into two forces which angled away from one another, obviously intending to race out on either flank before they turned and scissored back towards one another with her in the middle. She could see it coming, but the maneuver had turned the bellies of their wedges towards her, which meant she could engage only with missiles.
Flanking for dummies, the unexpected evasiveness and resilience of the LACs.

"Flush remaining pods at the LACs!" she snapped, her brain whirring like a computer as she considered options and alternatives. She didn't know how many missiles she had left, but she had a decent chance of keeping the ships of the wall from getting into energy range. That meant it was the damned LACs which were the real threat. They, and they alone, had the acceleration and, more importantly, the position from which to overtake her fleeing units. Which meant that every one of them she killed would be—
The LACs recognized as the major threat, even though Truitt will be in missile range a bit longer.

Joanne Hall felt her ship lurch, heard the alarms, saw the flag bridge com screen go blank, and knew instantly what had happened. Disbelief and horror foamed up inside her, but she had no time for those things. She knew what Kellet had been thinking and planning, and as the crimson bands of battle damage flashed in her plot, ringing the icons of the task force's ships, she had no idea who was the surviving senior officer. Nor was there time to find out.

"Message to all ships!" she told her com officer without even looking away from her plot. " 'LACs are primary targets. Repeat, LACs are primary targets. All ships will roll starboard and execute previously specified course change.'" She looked over her shoulder at last, meeting the white-faced Citizen Lieutenant's eye. "End it Kellet, Citizen Rear Admiral," she said flatly.
Here's that similarity between Joanne Hall and Honor, both took command in their dead admiral's names at Hancock.

"Citizen Captain, I have a com request from Citizen Rear Admiral Porter. He wants to speak to the Citizen Admiral," the com officer said quietly.

He would, Hall thought, watching the missiles fly. And I have to give him command . . . which I wouldn't mind at all—at least I could also let him have the responsibility!—except that he doesn't have a clue what to do with it.

She darted a look at Addison.

"Citizen Commissioner?" She couldn't ask him for what she really wanted, not in so many words. But he recognized her expression and drew a deep breath. He looked back at her for several seconds, then spoke to the com officer without even glancing in the young woman's direction.

"Inform the Citizen Rear Admiral that Citizen Admiral Kellet is . . . unavailable, Citizen Lieutenant," he said flatly. "Tell him—" He paused, thinking hard, then nodded once. "Tell him our com systems are badly damaged and we need to keep our remaining channels clear."
With her Commissioner's support, naturally. Anything else would be Treason to the People.

Yes, they'd left the ships of the wall behind, but not before their fire, coupled with those incredible missiles coming in from the lone dreadnought so far astern of her— and, of course, the LACs—had killed another four battleships. That made nine gone out of thirty-three, with all of the survivors damaged. All the tin cans were gone, as well, and only two heavy cruisers remained to her, both badly damaged.

Which means I have no screen at all, she thought coldly as the LACs raced back up on her flanks like shoals of sharks. She had a count on them now, and her people had managed to destroy sixteen of them outright and drive another five off with damage. But that left seventy-five, and their acceleration was incredible. The bastards were hitting her with what was obviously a well-thought-out maneuver; charging up on TF 12.3's flanks, taking their licks from her missiles—which were far less effective than they ought to be— until they reached their attack points, and then slashing in in coordinated runs from both sides. They were scissoring through her formation, firing as they came, and the damage they were doing was immense.

But they lost ground and velocity on her each time they crossed her base course. For some reason, they appeared to completely stop accelerating each time they turned in for a firing pass, but they were turning out over six hundred and thirty gravities of acceleration before they turned in, and they snapped right back up to it as they turned back to parallel her course once more at the end of each pass. Which meant they had more than enough maneuvering advantage to continue battering away at her remaining twenty-six ships all the way to the hyper limit.
More Flanking for Dummies, their impressive accel (630 gs) noted, and someone noticed that they stop accelerating on their attack runs.

LAC Wing One altered course and came slashing in, firing savagely. Another Peep battleship blew up, and one of the surviving cruisers, but the enemy had been waiting for this, and their own energy batteries replied savagely. Even more dangerously, the Peeps were firing missiles past them now, as if someone on the other side had figured out about their bow walls. A passing shot was always a harder targeting solution, but the laserheads exploding astern of the LACs probed viciously at their wedges' open after aspects. One of them died, then two more, then a fourth, but the others held their courses, unable to accelerate as they locked their bow walls and poured fire into the enemy.
It wasn't actually intentional just giving them one more thing to worry about. Still, if it's stupid and works it's not stupid. Particularly if you notice and repeat it. This convinces Harmon that it's finally time to pack it in, just one more pass.

He laid the sighting circles by eye, hit the override button that stripped the targeting lidar away from the central computer's command, and painted his chosen targets for his energy battery crews' on-mount sensors. Green lights blinked — he couldn't tell exactly how many—as at least some of his crews picked up the designator codes and locked onto them. However many it was, it would have to do.

See you in hell, Manty! he thought viciously, and pressed the fire key.

A fraction of a second later, LAC 01-001, call-sign Harpy, exploded in an eye-wrenching flash as Oliver Diamato's crews sent two capital ship grasers cleanly through her bow wall.
So much for Jackie Harmon, the original COLAC. Survivors escape from Hancock, half the capital ships. None of the screen made it out. They lost an Admiral, and Joanne Hall, though Diamoto will live to report what he saw, and get laughed at because his messed-sensors won't produce a coherent record.

Guns in local control, but the bridge still picks the targets, likely due to battle damage and not a standard arrangement.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by gigabytelord »

So I just finished the first book in this series and I have to say I quite enjoyed it. The fight between the Fearless and the Q-ship at the end was particularly hair raising, and my god the ships in the universe can take a hell of a beating.

The one thing that I found to be irritating was the info dumps. While interesting to read out of the context of the story I tired of them quickly and even skipped ahead a couple of times. Thankfully they were a relatively small part of the novel.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

The original idea that impeller driven ships can go pretty much instantaneously from zero to lightspeed, it's the compensator that is the limiting factor (or at least the only limiting factor) seems to have been quietly dropped sometime before. I'm still trying to understand why they can tow more pods outside the wedge than in, because as Ahriman says, it can't be physical crowding (not with those wedge sizes).
Yes, smaller ships are wont to have less tractor emitters, but that number doesn't change just because you park the pods outside the wedge.
Unless you want to argue that the wedge interferes with the number of pods a single tractor beam can tow, which is certainly possible given this is s]magic[/s]technobabble and the technology can do-or fail to do-anything Weber wants but I don't think it (or the reason why pods towed outside the wedge draw down a ship's acceleration) is ever explained, at least not in the main series.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Terralthra »

Ahriman238 wrote:The Eridani Edict and relevant history. I'm blanking on any Heinlein works that would make dropping rocks "the Heinlein Maneuver" so I'll probably feel really dumb when someone points it out to me.
The hint is in the text. "The lunar revolt..." In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, the lunar colony sends kinetic impactors against small towns on Terra.
Ahriman238 wrote:
"Anything from the Flag?" he asked.

"No, Citizen Captain," the com officer replied, and he turned towards Tactical.

"Why did the flagship bring her EW on-line?" he demanded.

"I don't know, Citizen Captain," the tac officer replied.
I'll give you a hint, Peep, because I like you. When the lead ship does any of the following: raises shields, starts their EW suites, or starts putting out chaff as applicable, you don't stand around asking silly question, you do what they're doing. Then you can ask what's up, but ask them not your juniors.
In fairness, Admiral Kellet didn't order the EW suites up, Captain Hall did on her own authority and is at this minute justifying this to the Admiral. Not that "if some other ship in the formation brings up their EW suddenly, maybe you should too" is a bad thing, but in a long-running engagement, tac officers on the other side spend a lot of time analyzing the EW of opposing formations and fire tends to get more effective (cf. Second Yeltsin, comments made in other battles). So, there are valid reasons not to put up your EW systems until you need them.
Ahriman238 wrote:
He laid the sighting circles by eye, hit the override button that stripped the targeting lidar away from the central computer's command, and painted his chosen targets for his energy battery crews' on-mount sensors. Green lights blinked — he couldn't tell exactly how many—as at least some of his crews picked up the designator codes and locked onto them. However many it was, it would have to do.

See you in hell, Manty! he thought viciously, and pressed the fire key.

A fraction of a second later, LAC 01-001, call-sign Harpy, exploded in an eye-wrenching flash as Oliver Diamato's crews sent two capital ship grasers cleanly through her bow wall.
So much for Jackie Harmon, the original COLAC. Survivors escape from Hancock, half the capital ships. None of the screen made it out. They lost an Admiral, and Joanne Hall, though Diamoto will live to report what he saw, and get laughed at because his messed-sensors won't produce a coherent record.

Guns in local control, but the bridge still picks the targets, likely due to battle damage and not a standard arrangement.
In fairness to the later complaint of "retcon!", this is not the end of the battle. The POV switches now, but the battle is far from over. Just after this, Diamato, unable to cover up the loss of Hall and Kellet, passes command to Admiral Porter, who orders a scatter, and basically eviscerates his own defenses in the process, screwing the entire TF out of the defensive formation it had managed so far. This little thing, passing command to Porter who then screws the TF over, leads to the whole "McQueen's bullshit super-LACs" in the next book, and so is relevant.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:So still evacuating the base, but Santonio will try and intercept the Peeps, kick a long-range broadside at them and run using the compensator accel advantage rather than not expose his command to risk and be labeled a coward for fleeing his station without a shot fired.
This is not actually a terribly stupid plan if you honestly think your flotilla's missile defense can handle the Havenite counterattack.

However, there is no way in hell that three superdreadnoughts (probably older classes) and four RMN battlecruisers (Reliants at best, probably older ships) can defend themselves against, say, the full pod loadout of four squadrons of Havenite capital ships. A four thousand missile salvo is just too much even for RMN missile defense. I don't think Santino properly factored that in.

Before the Havenites developed missile pods of their own this would probably have actually worked- the Manticoran fleet did something similar at the Battle of Minette, and managed a favorable exchange rate against McQueen's capital ships, despite being almost as badly outnumbered as Santino.
Icarus will be a general exception to Peeps seeing something off and just assuming the opposition are idiots or insane or something similar. Relative pod numbers.
Honestly, which Havenite officer did this, except Thurston? I'm not remembering.

Also, by this late point in the war, Haven has been taught a very solid respect for Manticoran technology, and how it allows them to get away with 'insane' tactics (like firing from eleventy jillion times your weapon range), or allows them to conceal a very clever tactic as an 'insane' one (like charging with superdreadnoughts disguised as battlecruisers).

So when they see something that looks stupid, they're trained to think "wait, what if they can actually pull this off?"
Foolish man, bringing a mere 900 bird salvo to a contemporary missile duel. Confirmation of 16-missile pods from Haven.
To be fair, nine hundred missiles is still a not-too-shabby launch from anything other than a stacked salvo by an SD(P) squadron. It's just that the enemy has a lot more ships than he does- about four squadrons' worth of capital units, instead of about half a squadron.
Max-range launch of 6700 missiles, the Manties stop 2700. And killed one SD and seriously damaged, maybe killed, a second. Haven point-defense gets a nearly 20% boost in effectiveness from Sollie hardware and software.
My estimate is that it normally takes about 200-300 missile hits to destroy a single superdreadnought. The upgraded warhead yields in the latest books might change that- dunno.

RMN missile salvoes against First Havenite War PN ships usually have hit rates of 50% or better; Havenite salvoes, not so good.
Traditionally the Manties have enjoyed a 30-35% advantage in stopping missiles, now cut down to 15-16% by the Sollie tech-transfers. Peeps actually have a slightly better track record at using their broadside energy mounts for point defense, though you'll see slowly there are downside even to that.
...How?

Again, I honestly think that in this context the Havenites have a more progressive design philosophy than the RMN. Their ships, by all appearances, de-emphasize beam weapons in favor of ruthlessly packing on the largest possible missile broadside. Instead of mounting great numbers of superheavy beam weapons that are hardly ever fired, they have a moderate-to-large number of relatively light lasers that (in principle) can be fired rapidly to help thin out missile barrages, joining the ship's own point defense lasers.

Since the shipboard energy weapon is in the process of being rendered obsolete throughout known space under all but the most bizarre combat conditions, this strikes me as a very intelligent decision on Haven's part.
Manticoran picket strength at Hancock Station, neglecting Minotaur. You can tow pods inside a wedge at the cost of sharply limiting their numbers, but they won't hurt your accel until you kick them loose before firing. I suspect they require different tractors for work within the wedge, otherwise with hundreds of cubic kilometers to play with and pods no more than 94 meters long, they could carry a lot more than 12 to an SD, 4 to a BC and 2 for a CA.
That, or the ship only physically carries so many tractor beam mounts? I mean, most of these ships were physically designed before missile pods were a thing.

There are a lot of reasons for warships to have tractors, but unless you have missile pods to make them a weapon they're not crucial systems. Far less important than, say, radar or laser cannons or missile batteries.

So the ships' tractor capability may only allow them to carry so many missile pods, especially if there's any possibility of interference from 'crossing the streams' of two tractors or having one missile pod's shadow block another's. Or, come to think of it, having a missile pod physically get in between the ship and a distant target you're trying to keep track of. :D
Don't all impeller craft have capabilities far beyond what their compensators limit them to? Ah well, Peep Mars-class built overpowered in the futile hope they could duplicate Grayson compensators, but the plus side is they can tow twice as many pods as a Manty CA without getting slowed down.
All impeller craft do, but the sustained capability may be much closer to the compensator's limits*, and when you're towing pods for hours, sustained capability matters. Also, it may be that this 'extra' capability is exactly what you eat into by having any pods tractored at all, so that the more extra capability you have, the more you can tow.

*(i.e. the drive could burn itself out by producing several thousand g for a few minutes, but it WILL burn out; if that weren't a serious constraint, missile drives would probably be a lot longer-lived).
An even bigger opening salvo for a moderate reduction in acceleration. I'm starting to think the Peeps are overcompensating after so much time spent on the receiving end of fuckoff-huge missile swarms.
Who wouldn't?

Also, the Havenites show a persistent willingness to accept risks and sacrifice one aspect of performance to gain advantages in another area. It's one of the things that allows them to remain competitive with Manticore despite the technological inferiority; I suspect Weber models it after the (perceived and real alike) traits of Russian military hardware during the Cold War.

So it's very typical for them, doctrinally, to go in with a superior force, and know they're accepting an acceleration disadvantage in order to tow a massive missile pod salvo. And they do this because:

1) They have an acceleration disadvantage anyway, nothing for it.
2) Their target is the naval base, which cannot escape. If the RMN mobile force chooses to fight, so be it, but even if they don't, the raiders accomplish their objective even if their ships are too slow to catch the Manticorans.
3) This way, the Havenites know that if they do get into missile range of the enemy, they will win, not get drawn into an extended slugging match with damnably hard-to-kill RMN superdreadnoughts.

Remember that they don't actually have much more in the way of battleships than Thurston took to Grayson for Fourth Yeltsin. And they anticipate that the RMN may have twice as many superdreadnoughts as Honor did at Fourth Yeltsin. So they are really really counting on missile pods as an equalizer, and they'll want to make that equalizer as big and nasty as they can.
Ahriman238 wrote:Battleships can carry eleven pods, and BCs two, inside the wedge where they won't foul with the accel until they're kicked loose. Mind, now they're saying the cruisers and tin cans can't do that due to lack of wedge depth.
Maybe they didn't bring along any Marses?

[I gather the quote here was talking about Shannon Foraker's plan for the attack on Zanzibar.]
The Eridani Edict and relevant history. I'm blanking on any Heinlein works that would make dropping rocks "the Heinlein Maneuver" so I'll probably feel really dumb when someone points it out to me.
It may not come as a surprise that I am quite familiar with The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress... ;)

Meanwhile, I'd also like to point out that this axiomatic certainty that the League will step in to enforce an Eridani Edict violation does not sit well with Weber's later characterization of the League. On the other hand, he may have made that intentional- the Edict being part of the 'old rules' status quo that the League's modern, creaky and corrupt state makes irrelevant.
For an Alpha Strike, the LACs take out most of TF 12.3's pods, which is going to be mighty awkward when Admiral Truit and the defenders arrive. They also fire missiles into the Peeps' formation. Honorverse energy weapons are energetic enough to vaporize, well, essentially any material that might get in their way.
Also, the Shrike can fire multiple graser shots during the close-approach period. Not sure exactly what rate of fire that implies, but it almost has to be in the low double digit seconds.
Blue-on-blue as a Peep battleship turns it's energy weapons to point-defense and accidentally one-hit kills a member of it's own destroyer screen.
OK, to be fair that IS a problem. Easiest solution is to wire the shipboard energy weapons to fire at reduced power when operating in missile defense mode.

...

Hm. I think you skipped the part that proves Minotaur was firing MDMs, or at least some kind of superior-range missile.

Fair enough, because I cited it a couple of weeks ago:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 9#p3831979
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote: In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, the lunar colony sends kinetic impactors against small towns on Terra.
Actually the initial salvo is targeted on empty spaces in the named target nations, after that they hit major strategic targets eg hitting Cheyenne Mountain repeatedly until it's just a crater.
So I stare wistfully at the Lightning for a couple of minutes. Two missiles, sharply raked razor-thin wings, a huge, pregnant belly full of fuel, and the two screamingly powerful engines that once rammed it from a cold start to a thousand miles per hour in under a minute. Life would be so much easier if our adverseries could be dealt with by supersonic death on wings - but alas, Human resources aren't so easily defeated.

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:The Eridani Edict and relevant history. I'm blanking on any Heinlein works that would make dropping rocks "the Heinlein Maneuver" so I'll probably feel really dumb when someone points it out to me.
It may not come as a surprise that I am quite familiar with The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress... ;)

Meanwhile, I'd also like to point out that this axiomatic certainty that the League will step in to enforce an Eridani Edict violation does not sit well with Weber's later characterization of the League. On the other hand, he may have made that intentional- the Edict being part of the 'old rules' status quo that the League's modern, creaky and corrupt state makes irrelevant.
In fairness, he does characterize the Edict as more or less the only (consistent) foreign policy that the League has. It's possible to consider this one tradition old enough that no matter how much internecine bureaucratic bullshit there is, everyone still refuses to argue with the Edict.

Which raises the question of why the 5 Mandarins (or the Mesan Alignment) didn't try to fake an Eridani Edict violation on Manticore's part to bring the Solarian League's battle fleet in, backed 100% by basically the entire League, instead of the piecemeal Frontier Fleet provocations.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote:
Which raises the question of why the 5 Mandarins (or the Mesan Alignment) didn't try to fake an Eridani Edict violation on Manticore's part to bring the Solarian League's battle fleet in, backed 100% by basically the entire League, instead of the piecemeal Frontier Fleet provocations.
High risk high reward, either you get the entire League gunning for Manticore or you get the entire League asking who's was the real murderers. And since Beowulf is favorite cousins of Manticore it's a little tricky to come up with a plan that won't instantly be seen through.

I mean you could have one compromised captain order a kinetic bombardment of Peep capital cities but hell other ships could intercept said kinetic weaponry not to mention the crew refusing not to mention how many sensor logs and the like ready to show Manticore side of things.

Also there is the small possibility that Mesan believes in the Eridani Edict as much as anyone else... habitual planets are valuable things after all.

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote:In fairness, he does characterize the Edict as more or less the only (consistent) foreign policy that the League has. It's possible to consider this one tradition old enough that no matter how much internecine bureaucratic bullshit there is, everyone still refuses to argue with the Edict.
The writers of the Edict took the League's disfunctionality IRT foreign affairs into account - that's why the Edict is an amendment to the Solarian Constitution. It comes into effect automatically, without the Assembly needing to approve it (at least in theory, I assume that there are some provisions to determine if a violation actually took place before taking action, and you could presumably fudge with that investigation if you were so inclined).
Which raises the question of why the 5 Mandarins (or the Mesan Alignment) didn't try to fake an Eridani Edict violation on Manticore's part to bring the Solarian League's battle fleet in, backed 100% by basically the entire League, instead of the piecemeal Frontier Fleet provocations.
Besides the risk Bean pointed out, there's also the issue of controlability. The Mandarins, at least initially, wanted to leave themselves an out. Invoking the Edict means that they can't stop the conflict until one side surrenders unconditionally. As for the Mesans (besides the fact that Weber pointed out that even they wouldn't slaughter planetary populations casually) wouldn't want Manticore being made unambiguous villains of the piece, since that would unify the League rather than using the issue to help splinter it.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Maybe it's because I've been reading the later books that go into exquisite detail with regards to how far behind the SLN is, but at this stage in the war is the Solarian League really still that much better than Haven at missile tech? Could it be that Haven is getting tech that the SLN for whatever reason has decided to not acquire?
The fight between the Fearless and the Q-ship at the end was particularly hair raising, and my god the ships in the universe can take a hell of a beating.
Yes, it might just be the most visceral fight in the whole series. Honestly, after reading a dozen fleet actions I'm kind of missing the intimate fight between two ships.
Which raises the question of why the 5 Mandarins (or the Mesan Alignment) didn't try to fake an Eridani Edict violation on Manticore's part to bring the Solarian League's battle fleet in, backed 100% by basically the entire League, instead of the piecemeal Frontier Fleet provocations.
Neither of them probably view Manticore as being that big of a threat yet. The Sollies certainly don't, and Mesa had their own plans which would have worked too if it wasn't for a couple of meddling spies. On a more practical note: how would you even go about trying to do that. Nanotech isn't going to help you here.

So I finished A Rising Thunder, and I have now realized that the two spinoff series of Torch and Saganami Island were supposed to be read before At All Costs. While certainly not incomprehensible, I did find it unusual that Torch and Talbott were not gone into in much depth.

Two questions:

How are you going to handle this with regards to the tread? Also, I'm assuming they're still worth reading after getting this far into the series, so which of the two should I start with first?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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DarkArk wrote:
Which raises the question of why the 5 Mandarins (or the Mesan Alignment) didn't try to fake an Eridani Edict violation on Manticore's part to bring the Solarian League's battle fleet in, backed 100% by basically the entire League, instead of the piecemeal Frontier Fleet provocations.
Neither of them probably view Manticore as being that big of a threat yet. The Sollies certainly don't, and Mesa had their own plans which would have worked too if it wasn't for a couple of meddling spies. On a more practical note: how would you even go about trying to do that. Nanotech isn't going to help you here.
Nanotech made a weapons officer on a Solly superdreadnought press the "fire everything" button, in very specific circumstances. Suborning that one specific officer with nanotech is not the easiest thing in the world. It can't be any more difficult to suborn a tac officer on an RMN ship to press the just-in-case-we-need-it "fire weapons on planetary target" button when orbiting some Silesian backwater.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote:Nanotech made a weapons officer on a Solly superdreadnought press the "fire everything" button, in very specific circumstances. Suborning that one specific officer with nanotech is not the easiest thing in the world. It can't be any more difficult to suborn a tac officer on an RMN ship to press the just-in-case-we-need-it "fire weapons on planetary target" button when orbiting some Silesian backwater.
I get the impression that navies don't tend to actually have fire plans for attacking planets. That only worked at Second Manticore because such last-minute firing plans are a common thing to have ready if you absolutely need to. I would be very surprised if it were possible to launch such a surprise attack against a planet, since it would require a much more complex series of actions. At least not before their comrades stopped them.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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DarkArk wrote:
Terralthra wrote:Nanotech made a weapons officer on a Solly superdreadnought press the "fire everything" button, in very specific circumstances. Suborning that one specific officer with nanotech is not the easiest thing in the world. It can't be any more difficult to suborn a tac officer on an RMN ship to press the just-in-case-we-need-it "fire weapons on planetary target" button when orbiting some Silesian backwater.
I get the impression that navies don't tend to actually have fire plans for attacking planets. That only worked at Second Manticore because such last-minute firing plans are a common thing to have ready if you absolutely need to. I would be very surprised if it were possible to launch such a surprise attack against a planet, since it would require a much more complex series of actions. At least not before their comrades stopped them.
Solarian ships certainly have fire plans for kinetic strikes against planetary targets, as we see in one of the Saganami novels.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote:Solarian ships certainly have fire plans for kinetic strikes against planetary targets, as we see in one of the Saganami novels.
They have ground-strike fire plans, but the question is how much additional input is needed to initiate them (the "launch everything" fire plan in ART was specifically designed to be launched quickly with minimum additional "fuss"). Also, unlike the plan we saw in ART, any fire plan for ground strikes would probably be against specific targets rather than an indiscrimate "flush everything at the planet plan"* - and therefore would not necessarily constitute an EE violation even if they could pull the launch off.

*The "free fire" plan is designed for a use-it-or-lose-it situation where everything's gone to crap and you need maximum fire volume now. A fleet might face that situation against another fleet, hence why these plans are routine against spaceborne targets, but I cant imagine a situation where you'd need something like that against a ground target.

Beyond that, the EE is designed for cases where the government orders an attack. Presumably there are conditions for the government to hand over the offending parties if it was a lone nut. And except in (ironically) the current situation - where Manticore knows about the Mesan nanotech but the SL doesn't believe it exists, Manticore would have little reaosn not to hand him over. And note that Mesa really didn't want word of the nanotech to get out.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote:In fairness, he does characterize the Edict as more or less the only (consistent) foreign policy that the League has. It's possible to consider this one tradition old enough that no matter how much internecine bureaucratic bullshit there is, everyone still refuses to argue with the Edict.
Maaaybe. Then again, maybe that's only true because OFS and Frontier Fleet can usually sort out the offender on the quiet without the need for much actual firepower.
Which raises the question of why the 5 Mandarins (or the Mesan Alignment) didn't try to fake an Eridani Edict violation on Manticore's part to bring the Solarian League's battle fleet in, backed 100% by basically the entire League, instead of the piecemeal Frontier Fleet provocations.
One:
They want a war that will collapse the League, not unify it. If Manticore is seen as having committed an Eridani violation, all or nearly all power blocs within the League will agree that it should be fought. For instance, Beowulf would probably agree to attack Manticore. They'd do this instead of choosing to not only dissent but actually align themselves with Manticore.

Remember, the Alignment isn't trying to destroy Manticore by provoking Manticore, Haven, and the League into fighting; they're trying to destroy the League. They've got their own plans for taking care of Manticore. Witness the Yawata Strike which has put a huge dent in their long-term combat potential; they're essentially going to have to fight the entire war using stockpiled equipment and whatever they can scrape up from shipyard equipment in allied star systems.

Two: In response to something said later, it occurs to me that a "fire everything" button on Filareta's fleet is a lot more likely than a "randomly bombard planet" button on an RMN warship. The Mesans have much better penetration of the League Navy, so they can arrange for a "attack nearest target" button to be placed on an operations officer's console in the first place. This may require the collaboration of multiple suborned officers and saboteurs, but they have multiple suborned officers and saboteurs.

They can also wait for the ship to be at red alert and in a hostile star system- which is exactly when "fire indiscriminately" plans could occur, because the normal safeties on a weapon system are likely to be relaxed.

Whereas for an RMN warship wandering around Silesia, there is no logical reason for a ship to have missile or beam fire plans programmed to indiscriminately blast the crud out of a planet. If you mind-controlled an RMN officer with the Mesan nanites (and they could do this; see Timothy Meares)... well. You'd have have the nanites not only force him to press a button or pull a trigger or fly an aircar into something, not a gross physical action like that. You'd have to have this RMN officer specifically program weapons to attack the planet. And bypass any lockouts designed to stop weapons from being fired at inappropriate times, and somehow answer any "Lieutenant, what the hell are you doing" questions anyone might ask him while he sets up the attack. Which requires use of higher thinking skills and executive function in a way that, so far, Weber has not pitched the Mesan nanites as being able to do.

I do appreciate this, by the way. The Mesan mind control nanites are in some ways an obnoxious plot device, but they're made a bit more credible by having some hard limits on performance- they can make you perform a fairly basic physical task (turn steering wheel, open drawer, remove gun, pull trigger, push button), but they can't make you spend an extended amount of time performing complex tasks (converse with a person asking you questions, perform calculations, write up a paper on the technical secrets of a new weapon and send it to Mesan agent).
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