Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Crazedwraith
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

The active forts had strictly limited numbers of pods—another point to take up with Logistics Command, he thought grimly; when a fort is declared operational, then it should damned well receive its full ammunition allocation immediately, not "as soon as practical!"
Harringtons carry 500 pods. Believe it or not, we'll later learn that endurance is a big issue. In the short term or with a steady stream of resupply though, nobody does overkill better.
This is something I’ve been wondering about with the sudden massive increase in missile salvo size. If you’re suddenly using an order of magnitude more missiles, isn’t that going to put massive strain on your logistics? Are stockpiles of missiles being rapidly depleted in SKM and Haven?

Or is it more that engagements are now much shorter so you’re using about the same number of missiles per battle? Just crammed into a couple of exchanges rather than lengthy battles?

But none of them fired, and as he slowly relaxed in his chair once more, his memory replayed the words once more. "No mercy," Yanakov had said, not "No quarter," and a long, quavering breath sighed out of him as he realized he was not about to see a vengeful atrocity by units under his command.
What’s the distinction there supposed to be?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Terralthra wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Here, the Havenites are overestimating their enemy- assuming that the RMN's jammers are good enough to fool them with a huge ghost fleet of fake sensor images, when in fact those are real sensor images. To be fair, of course, the Manties probably could create at least a temporarily convincing ghost fleet that way...
And they do, both before and after this book...
Although the instances of this I remember are all from longer ranges- it really ought to be easier to create a convincing ghost ship from thirty million kilometers than from seven million.
Simon_Jester wrote:Honestly, if it hadn't been for the political crap, plus the secret weapons (the super-LAC, the MDM, and maaaybe to an extent Ghost Rider), I think McQueen was about to turn the war around.
MDMs are part of Ghost Rider. And really, Caparelli's approach to fending off the PRN's Operation Scylla relied heavily on Ghost Rider's capabilities. It was a key part of suckering the PRN into their Operation Bagration and giving the RMN time to build up 8th Fleet for Buttercup.
I tend to call "Ghost Rider" the EW upgrades. The early generation MDMs were frequently called "Ghost Rider" missiles, but this is in my opinion because there was no universally agreed on term for them. Weber has since shifted and consistently calls the long range missiles MDM while using Ghost Rider to describe the advanced drones and decoys.
Simon_Jester wrote:[One wonders how long it would have taken Haven to create their first native-build podlayers on their own. They know what the things are, they have to have gotten THAT much from interviewing Caslet... and now they have the pods and know damn well how effective they are]
From AoV, the Peep ONI didn't really buy his description of Wayfarer's firepower, probably figuring he was trying to make the Q-ship that captured his ship seem tougher. Believable, given the 2nd Hancock and 2nd Basilisk whitewashes.[/quote]Eh, I suppose. That increases the time estimate.

Although once you have pods, someone is going to crunch the numbers on "hey, what if we just had a ship full of these and kicked the pods out the back?" It's a fairly obvious adaptation of existing minelayer concepts.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

But none of them fired, and as he slowly relaxed in his chair once more, his memory replayed the words once more. "No mercy," Yanakov had said, not "No quarter," and a long, quavering breath sighed out of him as he realized he was not about to see a vengeful atrocity by units under his command.
What’s the distinction there supposed to be?
No mercy is a nice bit of rhetoric before you unleash hell. No quarter means no prisoners. For a moment there, Hamish was genuinely afraid the Graysons would massacre helpless Peeps in crippled wrecks, shuttles and life pods. An atrocity at least a couple Peep commanders have indulged in since the beginning, but most don't and White Haven surely doesn't want to be in command during such a thing.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:Although the instances of this I remember are all from longer ranges- it really ought to be easier to create a convincing ghost ship from thirty million kilometers than from seven million.
Re-read the Battle of Elric, in Ashes of Victory, and the aftermath report Caparelli looks over in the next chapter.
Simon_Jester wrote:I tend to call "Ghost Rider" the EW upgrades. The early generation MDMs were frequently called "Ghost Rider" missiles, but this is in my opinion because there was no universally agreed on term for them. Weber has since shifted and consistently calls the long range missiles MDM while using Ghost Rider to describe the advanced drones and decoys.
My personal canon says Project Ghost Rider was originally the project to build the miniaturized powerful fusion plants necessary for everything that falls under the aegis of both projects (and more) to work. MDMs, the advanced recon drones, Dazzlers, Dragon's Teeth...
Simon_Jester wrote:Eh, I suppose. That increases the time estimate.

Although once you have pods, someone is going to crunch the numbers on "hey, what if we just had a ship full of these and kicked the pods out the back?" It's a fairly obvious adaptation of existing minelayer concepts.
Theisman agrees with you. He slaps his head that he didn't think of it, along the lines of "well, they'd have had to redesign the shit out of SDs to make a hole that big in them for pods, but yeah, of course," pretty much the instant he hears about them.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote:My personal canon says Project Ghost Rider was originally the project to build the miniaturized powerful fusion plants necessary for everything that falls under the aegis of both projects (and more) to work. MDMs, the advanced recon drones, Dazzlers, Dragon's Teeth...
Except that most references in the novels talk about "Ghost Rider" as referring specifically to electronic warfare capabilities. Not to power plants.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Terralthra wrote:My personal canon says Project Ghost Rider was originally the project to build the miniaturized powerful fusion plants necessary for everything that falls under the aegis of both projects (and more) to work. MDMs, the advanced recon drones, Dazzlers, Dragon's Teeth...
Except that most references in the novels talk about "Ghost Rider" as referring specifically to electronic warfare capabilities. Not to power plants.
Except that when Truman is briefing Takahashi (tac officer of Minotaur, she mentions to him specifically that his experience with missile systems will be useful when they test out the fruits of Project Ghost Rider when taking Anzio through its paces.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Many of the fruits of Project Ghost Rider are undeniably, clearly, missile variants.

I would also like to point out that while Weber may have referred to the early MDMs as "Ghost Rider missiles," if you look at any of the numerous books that have come out since Ashes of Victory... he's pretty much stopped doing so. This suggests a clear distinction in the author's mind, if nothing else, between long range missiles and the essence of Ghost Rider.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

My own understanding of Ghost Rider is that it began as a simple enough project to make smarter drones, recon platforms and missiles. By this point Manticore was starting to hit serious diminishing returns on cramming more EW and computing capacity into starship hulls while the battlespace was only getting more complicated and cluttered, particularly with massive missile swarms, while fire control and number-crunching to cut through jamming and ID decoys becomes ever more important. The solution: try increasing the capacity of remote platforms, like drones, recon platforms and missiles. Smarter missiles need less hand-holding from the computers of the ship that launched them (which is really important with MDMs, which outrange effective command and control links) while the decoys can put out decent jamming of their own and they and the recon platforms can help with the number-crunching.

All of this sort of allowed new capabilities, like the Dragon's Teeth which missiles couldn't have pulled off before. Next you thing you know ALL missile/drone/satellite/platform R&D was happening under the aegis of Ghost Rider. Just for simplicity's sake. Make sense?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

It does, but I'm with Simon on this-the whole gamut of gadgets that allowed Manticore to give Haven the finger may have started out under the coverall term of 'Ghost Rider' but as the series continues it's pretty damned obvious that Weber (and from what I can tell, the protagonists) use 'Ghost Rider' mainly if not exclusively to refer to the EW aspect of their new box of toys.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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The treecat in her lap looked up at her, but without the laughing deviltry his eyes would have held under other circumstances. Instead, it seemed to take all the energy he had just to turn his head, for poor Nimitz was stretched out as flat as his crookedly healed ribs and crippled right mid-limb and pelvis would permit while he panted miserably. Even his tail was flattened out to twice its normal width. Sphinx's winters were both long and cold, requiring thick, efficient insulation of its creatures, and treecats' fluffy coats were incredibly warm and soft.
Being suddenly dropped into a hot rain forest Nimitz is a.) hot and miserable and b.) shedding like crazy.

Feet swished through the low-growing, perpetually wet fern-like growth that covered every open space, and Honor's half-smile grew stronger as Alistair McKeon and Warner Caslet circled around in front of her. Like most of the other members of their small party, both of them had chopped their liberated Peep-issue pants into raggedly cut off shorts and wore only sweat-stained tee-shirts above the waist. Well, that and the ninety-centimeter bush knife each of them had slung over his left shoulder. McKeon also carried a heavy, military issue pulser (also Peep issue) holstered at his right hip, and a pair of badly worn boots—the last surviving element of his Manticoran uniform—completed his ensemble.
The Manties wouldn't remove or alter the uniforms in captivity, but bow before the climate. Fair enough.

"We're right in the middle of the equatorial zone here, and I understand from Chief Harkness that the higher temperate zones can be quite pleasant."

"Sure they can." McKeon snorted, and flipped a spatter of sweat off his forehead. "I understand the temperature gets all the way down to thirty-five degrees—at night at least—up in the high arctic."
Kidding, of course.

In fact, Caslet and McKeon had become good friends during their time aboard Tepes and after their escape, but there was still that unavoidable edge of tension. Whatever else Warner Caslet might be, he was—technically, at least—still an officer of the People's Navy. Honor liked him a great deal, and she trusted him, yet that invisible line of separation still existed. And Caslet knew it as well as she did. In fact, he was the one who had quietly suggested to her that it would probably be a good idea if no one offered to issue him a pulser or a pulse rifle, and his departure to refill his and McKeon's canteens was typical of his habit of tactfully defusing potential awkwardnesses. But she still didn't know exactly what they were going to do with him.
There is that awkwardness. Caslet may have come with them, may be passionately anti-StateSec, but he's not anti-Peep. Man swore an oath and he's the sort who takes that kind of thing seriously.

His head went back and he drank deeply, eyes closed in sensual ecstasy as the icy liquid flowed down his throat. Because it was intended for Honor, it was laced with protein builders and concentrated nutrients in addition to the electrolytes and other goodies Dr. Montoya insisted on adding to everyone else's drinking water. They gave an odd, slightly unpleasant edge to its taste, but the sheer decadence of its coldness brushed such minor considerations aside.
Honor is still half-starved after a couple weeks, so even her water has supplements.

A part of her resented the way that Montoya insisted on "pampering" her. She tried to disguise her discomfort with a light manner, but it seemed dreadfully unfair to her, particularly when everyone else in their little party of castaways had done so much more than she to make their escape possible. At the same time, she knew better than to argue. She'd been injured far more seriously than any of the others during their desperate breakout, and she'd been more than half-starved even before that. Despite the difference in their ranks, Surgeon Commander Montoya had flatly ordered her to shut up and let him "fatten her back up," and it often seemed to her that every other member of her tiny command kept saving tidbits from their own rations for her.

Not that "tidbit" was actually a word she would normally consider applying to Peep emergency rations. Prior to her arrival on Hell, she'd thought nothing could possibly taste worse than RMN e-rats.
Everyone else is contributing bits of their own meals to feed Honor's starved and tweaked heavy appetite. And, naturally, bitching about the food.
“And Jasper and Anson ran into another of those bear-bobcat thingamies that was just as ill-tempered as the other two we've met." He made a disgusted sound. "It's a damned shame the local beasties don't know they can't digest us. Maybe they'd leave us alone if they did."

"Maybe not, too," Honor replied, stroking the comb up and down against her thigh to clear a clot of Nimitz fur from its teeth. "There are quite a few things people—or treecats—can't digest very well, or even at all, that they still love the taste of. For all you know your bearcat might be perfectly happy to spend the afternoon munching on you. It might even consider you a low-calorie snack!"
Being, you know, just animals, the local fauna have no concept of left-folded vs. right-folded proteins. They see an animal, it's food or a threat. Well, if they keep blasting at every beastie to rear it's head, that'll help settle them firmly in the latter category.

Each of their two hijacked Peep assault shuttles was sixty-three meters in length, with a maximum wingspan of forty-three meters and a minimum span of over nineteen even with the wings in full oversweep for parking efficiency. Fervently as every member of their group might curse the hot, wet, rot-ridden, voracious jungle, hiding something the size of those two craft would have been an impossible challenge in most other kinds of terrain. As it was, the individual trees which supported the uppermost layer of the overhead canopy were just far enough apart that the pilots had been able to nudge their way between the thick trunks without actually knocking them over. And once the shuttles were down, the cammo netting which had been part of their standard supplies, coupled with the jungle's vines, lianas, fronds, leaves, branches, and tree trunks had made concealing them a straightforward task. The sheer grunt labor involved in spreading the nets with only seventeen sets of hands and just four portable grav lifters available for the job had been daunting, but the alternative had been a great motivator. They'd all had more than enough of the Office of State Security's hospitality.
Size of the assault shuttles, which we've already established as half again that of a pinnace. 63 meters long with a 19-43 meter (variable geometry wings) wingspan or 207 feet with a 62-141 ft. wingspan. Concealment of the assault shuttles.

"Actually," she went on, "I think their power converters may even be a bit better than ours are. They're a little bulkier and a lot more massive, but I suspect their output's higher on a weight-for-weight basis."

-snip-

McKeon had so far given only the most rudimentary consideration to what to do next. Getting the escapees down in one piece, convincing the Peeps they were all dead in order to head off any search parties, hiding the assault shuttles against accidental detection, and exploring their local environs had been quite enough to keep him busy. Yet he suspected Honor was already several steps along in working out their next move, and he was certain those shuttles were central to whatever she had in mind. But Hell's climate could not have been intentionally designed to be more brutal on delicate electronics and machinery. Senior Chief Barstow's work parties were kept busy on a daily business, pruning back the vines and other undergrowth which insisted on trying to infiltrate the intakes for the shuttles's turbines or crawl up into the electronics bays through open landing gear doors. For all that, the shuttles' battle steel hulls were undoubtedly immune to anything even Hell could throw at them, but high humidity, high temperature, and the mold, mildew, and fungus which came with that kind of environment could eat the guts right out of them, leaving nothing but useless shells.

That was why it was as essential to keep their environmental systems up and running as it was to keep the local plant life outside them, but doing that required power. Not a lot of it compared to even a small starship, perhaps, but a hell of a lot when it came to hiding a power plant from overhead sensors. Of course, they'd been careful to land on the far side of the planet from the island HQ where StateSec's garrison of prison guards hung out, and so far as Harkness had been able to determine when he raided Tepes' computers, the Peeps hadn't planted any of their prison colonies within a thousand kilometers of their present location. All of which meant that, logically, there should be no reason for the Peeps to be looking for anything out here in the middle of the jungle.

Neither Alistair McKeon nor Honor Harrington were particularly fond of including words like "should" in their planning, however. And even if there hadn't been the possibility of detection by satellite or airborne sensors, running the shuttles' onboard fusion plants would quickly have eaten up their available reaction mass even at standby levels.

But the Peeps who'd planned the equipment list for those shuttles had provided them with at least twice the thermal converter capability an equivalent Manticoran small craft would have boasted. Although the intention had probably been for the converters to provide power to recharge weapon power packs and other small items of personal gear, they also produced—barely—enough power to keep both shuttles' environmental plants on-line. Temperatures inside the craft were several degrees higher than anyone would have kept them in regular service, but the interiors felt downright frigid compared to the jungle's external temperatures, and the dehumidifiers kept the all-invasive humidity at bay.
The need for environmental systems. The creeping jungle can't harm the hull but can ruin the electronics and engines and they sort of need those. Peep thermal converters, which naturally convert heat into electricity, are bulkier than the Manty version, but actually more efficient on a pound-by-pund basis, and they issue twice as many in their survival gear so power (that won't light up any satellite sensors that may or may not be there) is not a problem.

"I want Harkness, Scotty, and Russ to break out the satellite com gear and figure out a way to sneak into the Peep com system."

-snip-

"For now, all I want to do is find a way to listen to their traffic and get a feel for their procedures. Eventually, we may need to see if we can't hack our way into Camp Charon's computers, as well."

"That's a tall order with the gear we've got here," McKeon warned. "The hacking part, I mean. And unless they're total idiots, there's no way their central systems would accept reprogramming from a remote location."

"I know. I'm not thinking of programming, only of stealing more data from them. And if things work the way I'd like them to, we may never have to do even that. But I want the capability in place if it turns out that we need it. And if Harkness can hack the central computers of a StateSec battlecruiser with only a minicomp, I figure he's got to have a pretty fair shot at infiltrating a simple com net. Especially since the bad guys 'know' no one else on the entire planet has any electronic capability at all."
Step one, monitor enemy communications and possibly hack their net to steal data.

"You're a hedonist, Mayhew," Sanko growled.

"Nonsense. I'm simply the product of a hostile planetary environment," Mayhew said comfortably. "It's not my fault if that sort of insecure life experience imposes survival-oriented psychoses on people. All us Graysons get horribly nervous when we have to operate out in the open, with unfiltered air all around us." He gave a dramatic shudder. "It's a psychological thing. Incurable. That's the real reason Lady Harrington assigned me to this, you know. Medical considerations. Elevated pulse and adrenaline levels." He shook his head sadly. "It's a terrible thing to require this sort of air-conditioned luxury solely for medical reasons."
Again, clearly joking but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a kernel of truth to it. Growing up on Grayson you probably hear a lot of warnings about going outside without taking proper precautions, don't mess with the air filters etc. So I'd actually be surprised if most Graysons weren't just a bit agoraphobic.

It should have been simple, Sanko thought balefully. After all, the Peeps had a planet-wide com net whose security they trusted totally, for reasons which made perfectly good sense. Not only did the StateSec garrison have the only tech base and power generation facilities on the entire planet, but their com messages were all transmitted using the latest in secure equipment. Well, not the absolute latest, even by Peep standards, but pretty darn good. Sanko was a communications specialist himself, and the SS's equipment was considerably better than any of the classified Navy briefings he'd attended had suggested it ought to be. Not as good as the Star Kingdom's, but better than it should have been, and Camp Charon had received the very best available when it was built.

Fortunately, Hell seemed to have fallen a bit behind on its upgrades since then. The planetary garrison had an impressive satellite net—why shouldn't they, when counter-grav made it dirt cheap to hang comsats and weather sats wherever you wanted them?—but their ground stations were getting a little long in the tooth. And, of course, the people they didn't know were trying to eavesdrop on them just happened to have a pair of assault shuttles which, up until very recently, had also belonged to StateSec . . . and had been fitted with the very latest in secure communication links.
That mix of paranoia and carelessness. They trust absolutely in the security of their comms, fair enough, though we'll get into the ways that's a problem in a bit. They have tons of communication and weather satellites, because spacelift is cheap, but haven't upgraded their ground stations in decades. Oh yes, and they don't actually use their fancy comm net that often, because they all live on one island facility, but when they do the lack of comm discipline is shocking.

Worse, the shuttles had extremely limited computer support compared to their Allied equivalents. What they needed for flight ops, fire support missions, troop drops, and that sort of thing was adequate—not great, but adequate. But most functions that weren't absolutely essential were done the old-fashioned way . . . by hand, or at least by extremely specific, canned software so limited, and with such crude heuristic functions, it made a man want to sit down and cry.
The Peep assault shuttles have far less computing power and capabilities than a Manty pinnace, so they can't even tell the computers to record any signals and chime when receiving.

Contrary to the works of the pre-space poet Dante, Hell had four continents (and one very large island that didn't quite qualify as continent number five), not nine circles. For the most part, neither State Security nor the exploration crews who'd originally surveyed the planet seemed to have been interested in wasting any inventiveness on naming those landmasses, either, and the continents had ended up designated simply as "Alpha," "Beta," "Gamma," and "Delta." Someone had put a little thought into naming the island, though Honor personally found the idea of calling it "Styx" a little heavy-handed, but that was about the limit of their imaginativeness. Nor did she find the repetitions on the motif which had gone into naming the planet's three moons Tartarus, Sheol, and Niflheim particularly entertaining. Oh course, no one had been interested in consulting her at the time the names were assigned, either.

Working from the information Harkness had managed to secure before staging their escape, McKeon had grounded the shuttles on the east coast of Alpha, the largest of the four continents. That put them just over twenty-two thousand kilometers—or almost exactly halfway around the planet—from Camp Charon's island home on Styx.
That's just disheartening that is. There's so many more good, hell/underworld themed names.



But as Honor had hoped, the Peeps seemed to be rather more garrulous when it came time to make their grocery runs to the various camps.

"How many of their birds did you get IFF codes on, Russ?" she asked.

"Um, nine so far, Ma'am," Sanko replied.

"And their encryption?"

"There wasn't any, Ma'am—except for the system autoencrypt, that is. That was pretty decent when it was put in, I suppose, but our software is several generations newer than theirs. It decrypts their traffic automatically, thanks to our satellite tap, and we downloaded all the crypto data to memory, of course." He eyed his Commodore thoughtfully. "If you wanted to, Ma'am, we could duplicate their message formats with no sweat at all."
Because the comm-net is known to be totally secure, no effort is wasted on encryption, besides a dated auto-encrypt that any StateSec comm will cut right through.

However confident the present proprietors of Hell had become, the people who'd originally put the prison planet together eighty-odd years ago for the old Office of Internal Security had built what were then state-of-the-art security features into their installations. Among those features was a communications protocol which automatically challenged and logged the identity of the sender for every single com message, but it appeared the current landlords were less anxious about such matters than their predecessors had been. They hadn't gone quite so far as to pull the protocol from their computers, but they were obviously too lazy to take it very seriously. Camp Charon's central routing system simply assigned each shuttle a unique code derived from its Identification Friend or Foe beacon and then automatically interrogated the beacon whenever a shuttle transmitted a message. All transmissions from any given shuttle thus carried the same IFF code so the logs could keep track of them with no effort from any human personnel.
Hades security then and now. I actually like the IFF code and challenge as a security measure.

For the rest of it, rather than bother themselves with changing authentication codes often enough to provide any sort of genuine security, those human personnel relied on an obsolete, canned encryption package which was worse than no security system at all. If anyone ever even bothered to think about it—which Honor doubted happened very often—the fact that they had a security screen in place helped foster the kind of complacency which kept them from considering whether or not it was a good screen. And almost as important as that gaping hole in their electronic defenses, only Champ Charon's central switchboard computers worried about authenticating the source of a transmission at all. As far as the human operators seemed to be concerned, the fact that a message was on the net in the first place automatically indicated it had a right to be there.
Which opens all sorts of doors for unscrupulous and clever individuals.

"You figure that they'll settle for querying our IFF."

"I think that's exactly what they'll settle for. Why shouldn't they? They own every piece of flight-capable hardware on the planet, Alistair. That's why they're lazy. They'd probably assume simple equipment malfunction, at least initially, even if they got a completely unidentifiable beacon return, because they know any bird they see has to be one of theirs." She snorted. "Scan techs have been making that particular mistake ever since a place called Pearl Harbor back on Old Earth!"
Why Honor is willing to risk a flight. That and they don't have too many options besides sitting and waiting for the food to run out.

“As nearly as Scotty and I can figure out, there are at least a half-million prisoners down here."

-snip-

"Remember that they've been dumping what they considered to be their real hard cases here for eighty T-years, My Lady. We've got fairly hard numbers on the military POWs they've sent here. Most of them are from the various star systems the Peeps picked off early on, from Tambourine to Trevor's Star. You had to be a pretty dangerous fellow to get sent to Hell, of course—sort of the cream of the crop, the kind of people who were likely to start building resistance cells if you were left to your own devices. Of course, if State Security had been running things at that point, they probably would've just shot the potential troublemakers where they were and saved themselves the bother of shipping them out here.

"At any rate, there weren't very many additions to the POW population for about ten years before they attacked the Alliance, and the nature of the POWs sent here since the war started is a bit different from what I'd expected." Honor raised an eyebrow, and he shrugged. "If I were StateSec, and I had a prison whose security I felt absolutely confident about, that's where I'd send the prisoners I figured had really sensitive information. I could take my time getting it out of them, and I'd have complete physical security while I went about it—they couldn't escape, no one could break them out, and for that matter, no one could even know that was where I had them, since the location of the system itself was classified. But StateSec apparently prefers to do its interrogating closer to the center of the Republic, probably on Haven itself. Instead of using Hell as a holding area for prize prisoners, they've been using it as a dumping ground. People who make trouble in other camps get sent here, where they can't get into any more mischief."
Hades demographics. 50 million souls, a whole lot of the most troublesome POWs, leavened with political prisoners.

"According to the best numbers Scotty and I could come up with, we figure there are between a hundred eighty and two hundred thousand military prisoners down here. It could run as high as two hundred and fifty, but that's a maximum figure. The other three or four hundred thousand are civilians. About a third of those were shipped out after various civilian resistance groups from conquered planets were broken up, but most are the more usual run of political prisoners."
Resistance fighters, have we got resistance fighters. Cheaper by the thousand.

"A high percentage of them are from Haven itself, with the biggest single block of them from Nouveau Paris," Mayhew told her. "Apparently, both InSec and StateSec concentrated their housecleaning on the capital."

"Makes sense," McKeon said again. "Authority in the PRH has always been centralized, and every bit of it passes through the command and control nodes on Haven. Whoever controls the capital controls the rest of the Republic, so it's not unreasonable for them to want to make damned sure potential troublemakers on Haven were under control. It'd probably work, too. 'Hey, Prole! You get uppity around here, and—Pffft! Off to Hell with you!' Except that since the Harris Assassination, they've been sending off 'elitists' instead of 'proles,' of course."
Not that Manticore is any better. Oh, yes they give station commanders on the sharp edge a lot more autonomy and trust, but don't imagine for a moment that who controls Manticore doesn't control the Star Kingdom.

"No doubt," Honor said. "But having them here in such numbers could certainly throw a spanner into the works for us." McKeon looked a question at her, and she made a brushing-away gesture. "I wouldn't want to generalize, but I can't help thinking political prisoners would probably be more likely, on average, to collaborate with StateSec."
An awful lot of political prisoners will have been put in by the old regime and, assuming they've been told anything of events in the wider galaxy, may be eager to prove their revolutionary credentials.

"As nearly as we can tell," Mayhew went on, "the camp populations average about twenty-five hundred personnel, which means they've got approximately two hundred sites in all. Obviously, there are none at all up here on Styx Island—Camp Charon itself is purely a staging point and central supply depot for the other sites—but the mainland camps are all a minimum of five hundred kilometers from one another. That spreads them out too much for the inmates of any camp to coordinate any sort of action with any other camp, given that the only way they could communicate would be to make physical contact."
2500 or so to a prison camp, of which there are 200. Set at least 500 klicks apart. That's a bit over a week by foot, assuming there aren't interesting terrain obstacles. Faster, if there are two camps on the same river or body of water. The point being the camps are close enough to have some contact, if they're clever and determined enough, though you'd think with a whole planet's landmass to play with even 200 camps could be spaced further apart.

"A month," Honor murmured. She contemplated something only she could see once again, then nodded. "All right, Alistair," she said crisply, "that gives us a time window for any given camp, anyway. And I think Jasper's probably right, that they do make a major supply effort once a month. If so, we've got some idea of the interval we have to work with. All we need to do is figure out what we're going to do with it."
I admit I was wrong. Monthly, not weekly, food drops.

"Well," he said now, "it seems that there's one prisoner camp here on Alpha that doesn't have a number." Marchant leaned back in his chair with a questioning expression, and Tremaine smiled at him. "It's got a name, instead: Camp Inferno. And it's not exactly prime real estate. As a matter of fact, it's the only camp on the entire planet that's located directly on the equator."
Camp Inferno, the equatorial camp, is where they put the hardcore hell-raisers who aren't deterred even by Hades' formidable security. Presumably these prisoners are still considered too valuable to simply shoot or starve out.

"That's because this is our original map, and Inferno isn't on it," Tremaine told him. "When Jasper and I generated the original, we used an old camp survey from Tepes' files, and this one wasn't listed. But yesterday Russ pulled a major telemetry download from the weather sats. It included weather maps for Alpha, with the camp sites indicated, including half a dozen that're new since the file survey we used was last updated. Like these." He tapped a key and new red dots appeared on his display, one of them flashing brightly. "And lo and behold, there was this camp we hadn't mapped sitting dead center on Alpha where it shouldn't have been. So when I came on watch this afternoon, I started trying to chase it down. I thought at first that it was just another new camp, but then I found this—" he tapped more keys and the display changed again, transmuting into a terse StateSec internal memo "—in one of Tepes' secure files on Hades, and it turns out it's not a new camp at all. The survey just hadn't mapped it—apparently for security reasons."

"I see." Marchant said, and smothered a smile, for Tremaine had added the last phrase in tones of profound disgust that he understood only too well. None of the Manticoran or Grayson castaways had yet been able to figure out what sort of reasoning (or substitute therefor) StateSec called upon when it decided when it was going to get security conscious and when it wasn't, but the logic tree involved promised to be twistier than most.
Again, Tepes had confidential memos on Inferno, but didn't have the site on their planetary map because of... security? On the pleasure yacht of one of the Triumvirate, with a double complement of StateSec infantry, they didn't have the confidence to record the location of this one camp but were happy to include the others?

It should have been a fairly short hop. Camp Inferno was only about fourteen hundred kilometers from their original landing site, which would have been less than a twenty-minute flight at max for one of the shuttles. But they didn't dare make the trip at max. They thought they'd located all of the recon satellites they had to worry about, and if they were right, they had a three-hour window when they ought to be clear of observation. But they couldn't be certain about that. There could always be one they'd missed, and even if there hadn't been, simple skin heat on a maximum-speed run might well be picked up by the weather satellites parked in geosynchronous orbit. So instead of high and fast, they would go low and slow, at less than mach one. Not only that, they would make the entire flight without counter-grav, which would both hide them from gravitic detectors and reduce power requirements enough that there would be no need to fire up their shuttles' fusion plants.
Flight entirely on thrusters, below the speed of sound which is apparently crawling in Honorverse aircraft terms. At shortly above treetop level, with only the Mark One eyeball to help them spot a Bronze Age encampment in the dark.

Yeah, they make it, and after only a couple hours of looking.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:The Manties wouldn't remove or alter the uniforms in captivity, but bow before the climate. Fair enough.
Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that one of their first umpleasant discoveries in the shuttle was "what do you MEAN there isn't a sewing kit on this boat?" So their alterations to the existing clothes tend to be rather crude...
Being, you know, just animals, the local fauna have no concept of left-folded vs. right-folded proteins. They see an animal, it's food or a threat. Well, if they keep blasting at every beastie to rear it's head, that'll help settle them firmly in the latter category.
Worked in real life.
The need for environmental systems. The creeping jungle can't harm the hull but can ruin the electronics and engines and they sort of need those. Peep thermal converters, which naturally convert heat into electricity, are bulkier than the Manty version, but actually more efficient on a pound-by-pund basis, and they issue twice as many in their survival gear so power (that won't light up any satellite sensors that may or may not be there) is not a problem.
Interestingly, power converters are an example of the kind of technology that would have received no benefit from the Manticoran R&D boom during the prewar era- largely civilian technology.

This may help to explain why civilian life on Haven and Manticore don't seem all that different (ubiquitous flying cars, living in megascrapers, et cetera). Both nations have access to the same kind of civilian technology; it's details of high-end quality that mostly only matter in warfare where there's a major divergence.

Although given how Haven works, there may be numerous planets where people live in exploited conditions (say, like the Verge worlds exploited by OFS) to support the lifestyle of the people on Haven itself.
Worse, the shuttles had extremely limited computer support compared to their Allied equivalents. What they needed for flight ops, fire support missions, troop drops, and that sort of thing was adequate—not great, but adequate. But most functions that weren't absolutely essential were done the old-fashioned way . . . by hand, or at least by extremely specific, canned software so limited, and with such crude heuristic functions, it made a man want to sit down and cry.
The Peep assault shuttles have far less computing power and capabilities than a Manty pinnace, so they can't even tell the computers to record any signals and chime when receiving.
As described, that's not so much a lack of computing power. That's a lack of programmability. There are probably millions of people in the world today who could set their computers to record and ring a bell when anything interesting happens. And we have no specific grounds to think Weber entertained, even for a moment, the idea that Honorverse computers are less capable than historical 2000-era computers.

The catch is that the computers have to be programmable in order to do this. There has to be, say, the equivalent of a C++ compiler. Or terminal access. Or something that allows you to actually directly insert custom-created programs and scripts into the system.

And StateSec appears to have assumed that it would not need that capability. Software is presumably made at a central location and patches are loaded directly to computers on the shuttles as part of routine IT maintenance. So all that's available to the person operating the computer is the canned software that does things like decide where the missiles go, or serve as an autopilot. This is Haven; the average end user is no more likely to learn to program the damn thing himself than he is to sprout wings and fly, so why bother giving him the tools to do so?
As far as the human operators seemed to be concerned, the fact that a message was on the net in the first place automatically indicated it had a right to be there.
Which opens all sorts of doors for unscrupulous and clever individuals.
Of course, we can assume that most of the Camp Charon operators are just as ignorant of IT as the people who were supposed to fly those assault shuttles. So it wouldn't be surprising if, except for a couple of people in the entire base, they can't significantly alter their own security arrangements.

Or don't actually perceive those arrangements except on the "what do you mean the software wants me to enter my login and password four goddamn times before letting me view this file? Come over here and fix it so I only have to do that ONCE!" Because once the IT people go "sigh, fine" and do that... your security now has a hole in it. :D
Hades demographics. 50 million souls, a whole lot of the most troublesome POWs, leavened with political prisoners.
Ah, that is 0.50 million, not 50 million. Five hundred thousand.

Which is actually not that bad by the standards of an interstellar police state that has to control a hundred billion or more people, possibly up to a trillion. Then again, they probably have a lot of other prison camps in other places- this is the one that's unique for having absolute physical security so that it's literally impossible for the inmates to revolt no matter how much they want to, and that no feasible outside assistance could break them out of.
Not that Manticore is any better. Oh, yes they give station commanders on the sharp edge a lot more autonomy and trust, but don't imagine for a moment that who controls Manticore doesn't control the Star Kingdom.
To be fair, Manticore is a three-planet polity (not counting irrelevant minor worlds), and all three planets are within comfortable communications distance. Haven is a lot bigger.

Also note that the 'housecleaning' was concentrated not on on Haven in general, but Nouveau Paris in particular- power in Manticore may be concentrated on the capital world, but is it centralized to a single city? We know the offices of government agencies are in and around Landing, but that doesn't tell us how much power is held by other places around the planets, in (say) percentage terms.
2500 or so to a prison camp, of which there are 200. Set at least 500 klicks apart. That's a bit over a week by foot, assuming there aren't interesting terrain obstacles. Faster, if there are two camps on the same river or body of water. The point being the camps are close enough to have some contact, if they're clever and determined enough, though you'd think with a whole planet's landmass to play with even 200 camps could be spaced further apart.
Actually... not easily. That spacing means that for each camp, you need to be able to draw a circle 250 kilometers in radius that contains no other camps AND no other camp's circles. Area of each circle is 200 thousand square kilometers, roughly. So 200 camps requires 40 million square kilometers of land (some of which can actually be ocean).

The land area of the entire planet Earth is 150 million square kilometers. If Hades has roughly the same amount of land as Earth, then they'll have had to spread the camps out over, oh... a quarter of the land area of the planet. And bear in mind, there has to be room to expand the prison population at a later date, preferably without making the individual camps bigger or closer together...

So overall, that seems reasonable. Sure, they're not spacing the camps as widely as they could, but given that most of the planet is covered in dense jungles, the distance they did set up is large enough. Making one's way through hundreds of kilometers of jungle with no weapons, no local food sources, and probably not even any decent machetes would be a bear.
Again, Tepes had confidential memos on Inferno, but didn't have the site on their planetary map because of... security? On the pleasure yacht of one of the Triumvirate, with a double complement of StateSec infantry, they didn't have the confidence to record the location of this one camp but were happy to include the others?
Weber may be speaking from experience of Soviet-era maps, which often included deliberately misleading information, such as calling highways dirt roads and vice versa, or failing to include entire cities where classified research was taking place.

Another point is that the maps on this shuttle may be a standard-issue map that is not customized to reflect the higher security clearance aboard Tepes, compared to another random StateSec warship.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

The map was explicitly based on information taken from Tepes' database.
"That's because this is our original map, and Inferno isn't on it," Tremaine told him. "When Jasper and I generated the original, we used an old camp survey from Tepes' files, and this one wasn't listed.'
Which indicates the location and existence of Camp Inferno wasn't in said database (or at least not in however much of it Harkness was able to download).
Of course even it not being in the database at all (if we assume Harkness got all of it) isn't necessarily the same as the information not being available. Given the paranoia of StateSec in general and surrounding Hades in special, I zhink it's quite plausible they did have a complete and up to date (to the extent that's possible with no realtime interstellar communication) map of the camps including Inferno...on a space USB stick in a safe hidden in a secret compartment in the Captain's/Ransom's quarters. Kinda hard to access that from the ship's computer grip.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Batman wrote:The map was explicitly based on information taken from Tepes' database.
What I mean is that the copy of MapOfHadesPrisonCamps.jpg located in Tepes' computers isn't necessarily different from the file that any other StateSec warship would carry around.

And the odds are, no one ever gave much thought to "oh, better put Camp Inferno on this map because this ship is being used by Citizen Commissioner Ransom now!" Because it's the sort of information that no one on the ship would ever normally need, and even if it were, the odds that anyone on the ship could conveniently locate a more accurate map are miniscule.

It'd be a serious pain in the ass to fix unless you happened to be in orbit over a planet where the correct, accurate location of the camp is somewhere in that particular StateSec facility's files.

And the only such planets we can be reasonably sure exist would be, oh... Haven and Hades.
Of course even it not being in the database at all (if we assume Harkness got all of it) isn't necessarily the same as the information not being available. Given the paranoia of StateSec in general and surrounding Hades in special, I zhink it's quite plausible they did have a complete and up to date (to the extent that's possible with no realtime interstellar communication) map of the camps including Inferno...on a space USB stick in a safe hidden in a secret compartment in the Captain's/Ransom's quarters. Kinda hard to access that from the ship's computer grip.
Also very possible.

What it comes down to is whether or not Ransom has a staff diligent enough to keep her appraised of every conceivable bit of relevant information, including stuff of no conceivable value. Like the location of the nastiest prison camp on Hades.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Aren't 'of no conceivable value' and 'relevant' sort of mutually exclusive? :wtf:
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Mr Bean »

Question, we've already seen one isolated network in the brig on the Tepes, are we sure that this is just not another example of "Sectary Ransom only private network". Heck it even makes sense from Ransom's perspective. Where else would she keep the loyalty reports on the Captain after all?

And if the good Sectary had her own private network in her rooms it would be hard for our good Chief to hack it.

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Batman wrote:Aren't 'of no conceivable value' and 'relevant' sort of mutually exclusive? :wtf:
Sorry. When I wrote 'relevant' I was thinking 'things that someone, somewhere in StateSec, might conceivably know or want to know." When I wrote 'conceivable value' I was thinking "things that Citizen Commissioner Ransom, specifically, realistically, might want to know. There was an interruption between the two.
Mr Bean wrote:Question, we've already seen one isolated network in the brig on the Tepes, are we sure that this is just not another example of "Sectary Ransom only private network". Heck it even makes sense from Ransom's perspective. Where else would she keep the loyalty reports on the Captain after all?

And if the good Sectary had her own private network in her rooms it would be hard for our good Chief to hack it.
That is very plausible.

My point is that the information is so worthless under normal conditions that Ransom probably wouldn't even bother with it; but if she did, your point that it'd be on a super-private network is valid.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

It just seems so bizarre that this one thing is super double-classified, when they have no problem providing detailed and accurate maps to the rest of the planet, or memos describing events there. On what circumstances, besides the present improbable one, could this be a useful distinction to make?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Esquire »

Paranoia directed towards the camp guards this time? The only even slightly possible escape threat* left on Hades is a sympathetic guard sneaking a prisoner out, and if you only let two shuttle pilots know where the super-top-secret facility is, you've cut down the number of people to watch.

*Barring main character intervention, obviously.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Another possibility that just occurred to me, and may be precluded by the text:

Maybe "Camp Inferno" is actually an unofficial thing created by the garrison, purely on their own authority. The other camps are 'on the books' because they were surveyed as potential camp sites by InSec decades ago, and mapped accordingly. The garrison keeps InSec/StateSec posted on how many such camps there are, because they need to supply reasonably accurate information on the prison population (plus or minus a few percent).

But "Inferno" exists purely as a way to screw with the most obnoxious and troublemaking inmates without actually executing them. It may simply be undocumented in off-planet information because it's not 'officially' a prison camp at all.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by VhenRa »

Simon_Jester wrote:Another possibility that just occurred to me, and may be precluded by the text:

Maybe "Camp Inferno" is actually an unofficial thing created by the garrison, purely on their own authority. The other camps are 'on the books' because they were surveyed as potential camp sites by InSec decades ago, and mapped accordingly. The garrison keeps InSec/StateSec posted on how many such camps there are, because they need to supply reasonably accurate information on the prison population (plus or minus a few percent).

But "Inferno" exists purely as a way to screw with the most obnoxious and troublemaking inmates without actually executing them. It may simply be undocumented in off-planet information because it's not 'officially' a prison camp at all.
Thats actually not a bad idea.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah. It's like "if you disobey the guards at Camp Blob, they'll lock you in a disused garden shed in the back of the base that's in direct sunlight all day long and has no ventilation."

The odds are, the guards are not listing that disused garden shed as an actual prison cell. Even if they're NOT trying to conceal from their higher-ups that they're locking people in the shed, it's still kind of... beneath the notice of the senior prison hierarchy. No reason to tell them and get a memo about how they want to sign off on the creation of more camps for some bullshit reason.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

It was not only drier here, it was also hotter. They were squarely in the middle of the continent, far away from the moderating influence of the oceans, and the aptly named Camp Inferno was, indeed, directly on the equator. It was as well that Nimitz had shed his winter down before they moved, yet even so, he and Honor were driven to retreat into one of the shuttles by noon.
So it is a hotbox on a planetary scale.

"Seriously. I don't like you risking yourself this way, and you are still weak. You know you are."

"Yes, I do. And I also know that it's my job as senior officer to be there if you three actually run into someone from Inferno," she said equally quietly. "I'm responsible for whatever decisions get made, so I need to be there when they get made in the first place. Besides, it's going to be essential that I get a . . . feel for anyone we contact."
Honor justifying hiking to make first contact with the camp because she's in charge and may need to make decisions on the spot, and thanks to Nimitz and her own budding empathic powers she'll know if there are any rats.

The fact that Hell's gravity was barely seventy-two percent that of her native Sphinx helped, but she wasn't fooling herself.
Which I figure as 0.97 Earth gravity. Sphinx having 1.35 Gs if you care to check me on that.

She'd grown accustomed to her status as Steadholder Harrington, though it still felt unnatural sometimes, and she'd been a part of the stratified world of the Navy's rank structure since she was seventeen T-years old, and she understood the value of military discipline and authority. But her present "command" was even smaller than the one she'd held when she'd skippered LAC 113 twenty-eight T-years ago, and she'd learned then that informality was just as valuable, as long as the chain of authority remained intact, in a group which must be tight knit and completely interdependent. More to the point at just this moment, it felt good not to be removed or barricaded off from people who were friends as well as subordinates.
Honor's feelings on the lack of formality in her present command. Also the only reference I know of to her flying an LAC. Which might explain why she considered LAC swarms too wasteful in human lives at the beginning of the series.

Several tall trees grew on the hilltop, promising both additional cover and at least some shade once the sun came up, but most of the hill was overgrown in head-high, stiff, sword-like grass. The area around the huddle of structures below them, on the other hand, had obviously been completely clear-cut when the camp was put in, although two or three years must have passed since the last time it was brushed back. Clusters of saplings had sprung back up out of the grass of the clearing, and the western side of the fence surrounding the camp was covered in a thick, leafy canopy of vines. It all gave the place a disheveled, somehow slovenly look
.
On the other hand, she reflected, first impressions might be misleading. The grass had been cut or trampled down in something almost like a fifteen-meter moat around the enclosed area, and that stuff on the fence might actually have been trained to grow there. Four larger huts, all built out of native materials, were packed tightly along the inner face of the fence there, and unless she was mistaken, that thicket of vines would start offering them shade from very shortly after local noon.

A ceramacrete landing pad and some sort of storage sheds thrust up through the grass about a kilometer north of the camp, and a plastic water tank stood on tall, spindly-looking legs almost at the center of the fenced enclosure. A windmill squeaked with endless, inanimate patience, its plaintive sound clear and forlorn in the predawn stillness, and water splashed from an overflow pipe on the tank. Clearly the windmill powered a pump to keep the tank filled, but it was equally clear that no one had used any of that mechanical power to generate electricity.

The explanation for the lights she'd seen during their approach was obvious enough from where they lay, concealed by yet more of that tall, stiff grass. There were four gates in the fence, located at the four major points of the compass and all tightly closed at the moment, and beaten dirt tracks connected them to form a cross-shaped intersection just south of the water tank. Two rows of dimly glowing lanterns on three-meter posts bordered each lane, and pairs of much brighter lanterns marked their intersection.
Camp Inferno. Not sure how typical it is of these camps, but it's the only one we get a detailed description of. The landing pad, water tank and maybe the windmill well-pump seem set up by StateSec with technology. Otherwise I believe it's up to the prisoners to build and maintain their shelter.

"I'd guess it at about six or seven hundred," she said finally, and turned her head to look at LaFollet, lying on his belly on her right. "Andrew?"

"Your guess is as good as mine, My Lady." He twitched his shoulders in a shrug. "I'd say you're probably close to right, but I thought each of those camps was supposed to have a couple of thousand people in it."

"The others do," she replied, "but this one's not like them. They're mainly just holding areas; this one is a punishment camp."
Inferno has such a small population, they could theoretically give everyone a weapon.

"Well, they certainly put it in the right place for that, My Lady!" Clinkscales muttered, and she heard the sharp smack of his hand as he swatted another of the insects Sarah DuChene had christened "shuttlesquitos." It was fortunate that they didn't swarm like the Old Terran mosquitos they outwardly resembled, because a "swarm" of blood-drinking predators with wingspans wider than Honor's palm would have been deadly. On the other hand, it would have been even more fortunate if they'd realized that however good human beings might taste, they couldn't live off them. In fact, human blood seemed to kill them quickly . . . which didn't keep their surviving brainless relatives from darting in for their own quick solo drinks.

"I could really learn to hate this place," the ensign added wryly, and she chuckled.
Mosquitoes the size of your hand, another of the charming local features on Hades. At least they don't swarm and die quickly after biting.

It was clear from the memo Scotty Tremaine had pulled out of the Tepes data that StateSec used Camp Inferno as a dumping site for troublemakers from all the other camps. Apparently, prisoners who sufficiently disturbed the status quo to tick their captors off without quite inspiring StateSec to simply shoot them and be done with it were shipped off to Inferno. An average sentence here for a first-time visitor was one local year—a bit shorter than a T-year—with longer terms for repeat offenders, and at least some of the inmates had been sent here permanently. Which, she suspected, was the real reason Inferno existed at all. It was a punishment short of shooting which everyone knew about, and cycling bad boys and girls through it on a semiregular basis would keep its existence—and threat—in the fronts of people's brains. And leaving some of them here permanently was a pointed hint that even on Hell, StateSec could always make someone's life still more miserable . . . and leave it that way.
Hades has a year just a little shorter than Earth's. Troublemaking prisoners get rotated through to spread the story that even after InSec/StateSec have disappeared you to a horrible prison, there's a more horrible prison you can be disappeared off to.

Two groups of ten or fifteen people apiece were hauling branches and vines and fern-like fronds out of the jungle while another five armed with long, slender spears watched over them protectively. Another group was busy with clumsy looking wooden sickles, cutting back the grass along the edges of the cleared zone about the fence, with another little knot of spearmen guarding them, and others were busy with still more chores, most of them almost impossible to figure out from this distance. Only the pair Lady Harrington had selected weren't obviously embarked on such a task.
Daily maintenance includes hacking back the growth while bewaring local predators, who seem to have not gotten the idea after 75 years of human habitation. I'm guessing they really don't have decent machetes if they're using wooden sickles for this.

Standard English had been the interstellar language of humanity from the earliest days of the Diaspora. It had become that almost inevitably, for it had been the international language of Old Earth and had been carried to the other bodies of the Sol System long before it left them for the stars. Many worlds and even star nations spoke other languages among their own citizens—German in the Anderman Empire, for example, or Spanish on San Martin, French on New Dijon, Chinese and Japanese on Ki-Rin and Nagasaki, and Hebrew in the Judean League—but every educated human being spoke Standard English. And, for the most part, electronic recordings and the printed word had kept its pronunciation close enough from world to world for it to be a truly universal language. But Honor had to concentrate hard to follow this woman's mushy accent. She'd never heard one quite like it, and she wondered what the other's native tongue was.
Linguisitics in the honorverse. In the future everyone will speak English like civilized, reasonable people. At least as a lingua franca for dealing with outsiders.

"Wait. You said 'Harrington.' Are you Honor Harrington?" she demanded harshly, and it was Honor's turn to blink in consternation.

"I was the last time I looked," she said cautiously. She looked past the newcomers at Mayhew, one eyebrow quirked, but the Grayson lieutenant only shook his head.

"My God," the woman muttered, then turned back to the man. He returned her stare without comment, then shrugged and raised both hands palm uppermost.

"May I ask how you happen to know my first name?" Honor asked after a moment, and the woman wheeled back around to face her.

"A couple of dozen Manty prisoners got dumped in my last camp just before the Black Legs sent me to Inferno," she said slowly, narrow eyes locked on Honor's face. "They had a lot to say about you—if you're really the Honor Harrington they were talking about. Said you took out a Peep battlecruiser with a heavy cruiser before the war even started, then ripped hell out of a Peep task force at someplace called Hancock. And they said—" her eyes darted to Nimitz "—that you had some strange kind of pet." She stopped and cocked her head aggressively. "That you?"
Oh for the love of- even people locked in the Peeps' supersecret prison for the last sixty years have heard of Honor? I call bullshit. I call approximately all the bullshit.

Honor nodded. She had only a vague notion of the Pegasus System's location, but she knew it was close to the Haven System . . . and that it had been one of the PRH's very first conquests. And from the flavor of Harriet Benson's emotions and the steel she sensed at the older woman's core, she strongly suspected the captain would have attempted to resist the Peeps whatever she had or hadn't known about the future.
Pegasus, one of the first planets to fall. Benson formed a resistance group and got herself sent her.

"Toulon, in the Gaston System," Benson said. "When the Peeps moved in on Toulon, the Gaston Space Forces gave them a better fight than we did in Pegasus. Then again," her mouth twisted, "they knew the bastards were coming. The first thing we knew about it was the arrival of the lead task force."
Which probably explains a lot about Pegasus' quick fall.

"Yes, the Dague." Benson nodded. "And when the system government surrendered, Dague's skipper refused to obey the cease-fire order. She fought a hit-and-run campaign against the Peeps' merchant marine for over a T-year before they finally cornered her and pounded Dague to scrap. The Peeps shot her and her senior surviving officers for 'piracy,' and the junior officers got shipped to Hell where they couldn't make any more trouble. I guess it was—what? About ten T-years, Henri?—after that when we met."
Henri was a marine aboard a doomed ship that fought on after the surrender.

"But you were asking how I wound up here. The answer's simple enough, I'm afraid—ugly, but simple. You see, neither InSec nor these new Black Leg, StateSec bastards have ever seen any reason to worry about little things like the Deneb Accords. We're not prisoners to them; we're property. They can do anything the hell they like to us, and none of their 'superior officers' are going to so much as slap their wrists. So if you're good looking and a Black Leg takes a hankering for you—"
Cue story about a girl a StateSec goon wanted shortly after the Glorious People's Revolution. Her brother died to protect her, and the other prisoners formed a neatly nonaggressive human wall, Gandhi-style, until they gave up and went away. Next month, no food flight, and the next couple they just hovered there, a silent message "give us the girl and maybe we'll feed you again." Until the girl slits her own throat in full view of the shuttle crew who resume the food flights. After waiting another month to make their point. And the 'ringleaders' all got a one-way ticket to Camp Inferno.

"I didn't mean to interrupt," Honor half-apologized. "But it was our understanding that no prisoners were allowed on Styx."

"Prisoners aren't; slaves are," Benson said harshly. "We don't know how many—probably not more than a couple of hundred—and I guess it's against official policy, but that doesn't stop them. These sick bastards think they're gods, Commodore. They can do whatever the hell they like—anything—and they don't see any reason why they shouldn't. So they drag off just enough of us to do the shit work on Styx for them . . . and for their beds."
Sounds about right, the place was designed with a sensible rule or precaution, in this case "Absolutely no prisoners on our technologically advanced island stronghold" that is later overruled by StateSec ignoramuses.

"I wanted to drag them off their frigging shuttle and rip them apart with my bare hands, and we could have done it." She looked up at Honor with a corpse smile. "Oh, yes, it's been done, Commodore. Twice. But the Peeps have a very simple policy. That's why I was so upset when I thought you'd attacked one of the food runs, because if you hit one of their shuttle flights, then no more shuttles ever come to your camp. Period. They just—" her right hand flipped in a throwing away gesture "—write you off, and when the food supplies don't come. . . ."
The penalty for attacking the shuttles. Apparently it's been done before but the prisoners couldn't even get them off the ground, some sort of security measure I presume.

"But they got even with us," she said softly. "They cut off the food shipments anyway." She drew another deep breath. "You've noticed mine and Henri's 'accents'?" she asked

"Well, yes, actually," Honor admitted, surprised into tactlessness by the non sequitur, and Benson laughed mirthlessly.

"They aren't accents," she said flatly. "They're speech impediments. You probably haven't been on-planet long enough to realize it, but there actually is one plant we can eat and at least partially metabolize. We call it 'false-potato,' and it tastes like— Well, you don't want to know what it tastes like . . . and I'd certainly like to forget. But for some reason, our digestive systems can break it down—partially, as I say—and we can even live on it for a while. Not a long time, but if we use it to eke out terrestrial foods, it can carry us. Unfortunately, there's some kind of trace toxin in it that seems to accumulate in the brain and affect the speech centers almost like a stroke. We don't have a lot of doctors here on Hell, and I never had a chance to talk to anyone from one of the other camps, so I don't know if they've even figured out humans can eat the damned stuff, much less why or exactly how it affects us. But we knew, and when the food flights stopped, we didn't have any choice but to eat it. It was either that or eat each other," she added in a voice leached of all emotion, "and we weren't ready for that yet."

"They were in the other camps—the other two the Tiges-Noires let starve to death," Henri said softly to Honor, and Benson nodded.

"Yes, they were," she agreed heavily. "Eventually. We know they were, because the Peep psychos made holo chips of it and made all the rest of us watch them just to be sure their little demonstration was effective."
False-potato, the one sort of edible food on Hades. One that will let you stretch out your food for a couple months without drops if you're careful and don't mind the damage.

Oh, and the two camps that hit shuttles? The Peeps cut off the food flights, filmed the resulting cannibalism and made the other camps watch.

"We were . . . well, call it bird-watching, Dame Honor."

"Bird-watching?" Honor blinked, and Benson shrugged.

"Well, they're not really birds, of course. Hell doesn't have birds. But they're close enough analogues, and they're pretty." She shrugged again. "It's an interest we share—a hobby, I suppose—and yesterday and today were our free days, so we decided to see if we couldn't spot a mated group we've been seeing foraging in the sword grass for the last couple of weeks. You do realize, don't you, that all native life here on Hell is trisexual?" Her expression brightened with genuine interest. "Actually, there are four sexes, but we think only three of them are immediately involved in procreation," she explained. "The fourth is a neuter, but it's actually the one that does the nursing in the mammal equivalents, and it seems to do most of the foraging or hunting for the others. And the birth rates for all four sexes seem to be set by some sort of biomechanism that—"
Further peculiarities of Hades fauna. Three for sex and a neuter that nurses, I wonder how that works.

"Actually, I suppose I am the senior officer in some respects," Benson went on after a moment. "I was in the second draft of military prisoners sent to Hell, so technically, I guess, I'm 'senior' to just about everybody on the damned planet! But the senior lifer here in Inferno is a fellow named Ramirez, a commodore from San Martin." She grinned wryly. "In some ways, I think they built Inferno just for him, because he was a very, very bad boy while the Peeps were trying to take Trevor's Star. He was the senior surviving officer from the SMN task force that covered the Trevor's Star end of your wormhole junction while the last refugee ships ran for it, too, and he made more waves when they first dumped him on Hell than Henri and I ever did."
In a startling coincidence, Tomas Ramirez's father, Jesus Ramirez, is here and the senior POW of Inferno.

"From what you've said, it sounds unlikely that the Peeps have spies in Camp Inferno," Honor told her. "If I were in command, I'd have them there, or at least listening devices, but it doesn't sound to me like StateSec has anything like a real security consciousness."

"Yes and no, Dame Honor," Benson cautioned. "They're arrogant as hell, and God knows Henri and I know they don't give a good goddamn what they do to us or how we might feel about it. And, no, I don't think they have any spies or bugs down in the camp. But they might, and they don't take any chances at all with their personal safety off Styx. Only a camp full of outright lunatics would try to rush one of the supply shuttles. Even if they took it, they couldn't go anywhere with it, and all they'd get would be a month or so of food, whereas everyone in the camp knows that the Peeps would starve them all to death for any attack. But they come in armed, and they'll shoot one of us down for even looking like we might be a threat. We need our spears for defense against the local predators—they haven't figured out they can't digest us—and our knives—" she gestured at the blades in LaFollet's belt "—are survival tools. But if even a single blade is within a hundred meters of the shuttle pad, they'll hose it off with heavy pulser fire and kill every single prisoner inside the landing zone before they touch down." She shrugged. "Like I say, nobody gives a good goddamn what the Black Legs do to us."
The "we couldn't fly the shuttles" bit, and the fate of anyone carrying a possible weapon when the shuttle touches down. They don't think there are any spies or bugs, but are still not going to tell Jesus Ramirez why he needs to come out into the bush.

He was over five centimeters taller than she was, yet that only began to tell the tale, for San Martin was one of the heaviest gravity planets mankind had ever settled. Not even people like Honor herself, descended from colonists genetically engineered for heavy-grav planets before humanity abandoned that practice, could breathe San Martin's sea-level atmosphere. It was simply too dense, with lethal concentrations of carbon dioxide and even oxygen. So San Martin's people had settled the mountaintops and high mesas of their huge home world . . . and their physiques reflected the gravity to which they were born.
Similar to the Grayson agoraphobia, San Martinos tend to be very leery of heights. Even a relatively short fall on San Martino can be lethal. Which is ironic for a plateau-and-mountaintop civilization.

"Kilkenny?" Honor repeated, and Ramirez laughed with no humor at all.

"That's the Black Legs' term for what happens when they stop sending in the food supplies," he told her. "They call it the 'Kilkenny Cat' method of provisioning. Don't you know the Old Earth story?"
In case you missed the reference:

There once were two cats of Kilkenny
Each thought there was one cat too many
So they fought and they fit
and they scratched and they bit
'Til instead of two cats there weren't any!


Yeah...

"I see." He leaned back, a solider piece of the darkness beside her as he crossed his ankles and folded his arms across his massive chest. "Well, I suppose we should consider relative seniority, then," he said courteously. "My own date of rank as a commodore is 1870 p.d. And yours is?"

"I was only eleven T-years old in 1870!" Honor protested.

"Really?" Laughter lurked in his voice. "Then I suppose I've been a commodore a little longer than you have."

"Well, yes, but—I mean, with all due respect, you've been stuck here on Hell for the last forty years, Commodore! There've been changes, developments in—"
It's not often we get to see Honor taken to school. Props to Jesus Ramirez. Who proves his class further by immediately conceding that it's Honor's people who gave them this chance, Honor's shuttles and Honor's plan so he'll defer to her. When they get their act together they decide it's simpler to deal with her as a Grayson admiral than a Manty commodore.

"And you'll support me after the initial operation?" she pressed. "What happens then is going to be even more important than the preliminary op—if we're going to get off-planet, at any rate—and no one can command this kind of campaign by committee." She paused a moment, then went on deliberately. "And there's another consideration, as well. I fully realize that you and thousands of other people on this planet will have your own ideas about what to do with the Peeps, and how. But if we're going to carry through to a conclusion that actually gives us a chance to get off Hell, our command structure will have to hold all the way through . . . including the 'domestic' side."
Honor realizes that even after they take Styx, getting everyone concentrated and off this rock will be a major undertaking. The main concession Ramirez makes is no simple reprisal killings, any StateSec guys they capture get a court-martial in accordance with the Deneb Accords.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Um-Honor's first command being a LAC is on like page 9 of OBS?
Fifteen years—twenty-five T-years—since that first exciting, terrifying day on the Saganami campus. Two and a half years of Academy classes and running till she dropped. Four years working her way without patronage or court interest from ensign to lieutenant. Eleven months as sailing master aboard the frigate Osprey, and then her first command, a dinky little intrasystem LAC. It had massed barely ten thousand tons, with only a hull number and not even the dignity of a name, but God how she'd loved that tiny ship!
As for people on Hell knowing of Honor's early exploits, I find the way Weber presents it moderately plausible. Those people haven't been completely isolated from the rest of the world for *insert number of decades*, they've merely been 'stuck' there...with a steady influx of people taken prisoner as the war started and moved on, to the point that there's prisoners taken recently enough that they know of Honor's alleged execution.
Given the press coverage Honor apparently got on both sides it's hardly surprising Mantie captives taken after she did the stuff that got her that coverage would know about it, and share their tales.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Honor's feelings on the lack of formality in her present command. Also the only reference I know of to her flying an LAC. Which might explain why she considered LAC swarms too wasteful in human lives at the beginning of the series.
Especially since His Majesty's LAC #113 apparently had a crew of over thirty, whereas the new Shrikes have a crew of about twelve.

So far as I know there are no stories about Honor's tenure as a LAC captain.
Inferno has such a small population, they could theoretically give everyone a weapon.
Yes- and another indicator that it might not be officially documented; it's a nonstandard installation in terms of size. It probably has the worst amenities of any camp- some of the others might have some prefab housing or other improvements, especially the relatively nice ones used for political prisoners who might be rehabilitated some day.
Daily maintenance includes hacking back the growth while bewaring local predators, who seem to have not gotten the idea after 75 years of human habitation. I'm guessing they really don't have decent machetes if they're using wooden sickles for this.
Right.

And yeah, after a few generations you'd think the local fauna would know humans are poisonous. Then again, I wouldn't want to be the guy who died being eaten by the last local bear-cat who didn't get the memo, so anti-predator watches might continue to be a thing well after the worst of the predator threat vanished.
Oh for the love of- even people locked in the Peeps' supersecret prison for the last sixty years have heard of Honor? I call bullshit. I call approximately all the bullshit.
The part about Manticoran POWs having made it to Hades makes sense. The part about their stories getting a lot of traction... kinda doubt it. Although in fairness, once the RMN prisoners start telling stories about how Manticore is kicking the Peeps' asses, most of the other prisoners will be interested to hear.

Especially since it's the only news they've had in decades that suggests they might eventually get off this mudball.
Sounds about right, the place was designed with a sensible rule or precaution, in this case "Absolutely no prisoners on our technologically advanced island stronghold" that is later overruled by StateSec ignoramuses.
To be fair, by itself it seems to work, probably because the StateSec garrison outnumbers the entire slave population.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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A lot of the local fauna here hasn't gotten the message that messing with humans is really not a good way to ensure your continued existence, with thousands of years to learn-why would animals on another planet necessarily be any smarter?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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