Gandalf the white vs yoda AOTC

[Balrog]

Oi, perhaps you should've read all the other posts before this

Gandalf's powers recap:

-Mastry of fire, allowing him to make things burst in flame

-Manipulate objects with his staff (a la Force push/pull)

-Supposidly he demostrats teleportation in The Hobbit and perhaps LotR (gonna have to look that back up again)

-Turned a simple acorn in The Hobbit into a high-explosive bomb against the Warg riders attack after they escaped from the Goblins.



And what exactly is Yoda gonna do to a Balrog? He had trouble keep a big metal cylinder from falling on Obi and Anakin, much less if he could move around something three times as big. He can't shoot Force Lightning at it (who knows if it would help anyways) and a big glow stick that gives of thermal heat is really gonna help against a being of fire.

[Keevan_Colton]

Well, it's kinda like "Could Yoda beat a Balrog?" Which is highly doubtful IMO.

Why? What does a Balrog do? Is it immune to a lightsabre?

But that's besides the point, the point being that with Gandalf's more well-known powers he could easily beat Yoda.

Gandalf's more well known powers? Like what? What's to stop Yoda from merely spinning him around like a top and giving him a tree enema?

Is yoda an immortal being? If not then the first one to die thing is probably going to work against him.....

[Skelron]

Oi, perhaps you should've read all the other posts before this

And what exactly is Yoda gonna do to a Balrog? He had trouble keep a big metal cylinder from falling on Obi and Anakin, much less if he could move around something three times as big. He can't shoot Force Lightning at it (who knows if it would help anyways) and a big glow stick that gives of thermal heat is really gonna help against a being of fire.

Yoda stabs Balrog... Balrog looks confused for a minute then smacks Yoda with that VERY big sword or that even Bigger Whip... Yoda looks confused at the fact that he appears to be a lot bigger, well his legs are at the other side of the clearing after all....

Yoda vs Gandalf. It takes a little longer, well after all first off Gandalf decides to have a quick smoke, nd then he fights... It's over soon after Victory to the Istari. Why, well being a Demi God/Angel/whatever, who was present at the creation of the world I'd say gives him an advantage over the very dangerous muppet.

[Darth Wong]

Oi, perhaps you should've read all the other posts before this

Gandalf's powers recap:
-Mastry of fire, allowing him to make things burst in flame
-Manipulate objects with his staff (a la Force push/pull)
-Supposidly he demostrats teleportation in The Hobbit and perhaps LotR (gonna have to look that back up again)
-Turned a simple acorn in The Hobbit into a high-explosive bomb against the Warg riders attack after they escaped from the Goblins.

Yoda's powers recap:
- can melt any metallic object with his lightsabre, can make things burst in flame by touching them with his lightsabre
- manipulate objects massing ten tons or more without any special devices to help him
- can become briefly invisible/intangible if necessary
- if you let him pick up a blaster, he can blow up pretty much anything in Middle Earth. And giving Gandalf his toys is hardly fair if you don't give Yoda his toys.

And what exactly is Yoda gonna do to a Balrog? He had trouble keep a big metal cylinder from falling on Obi and Anakin, much less if he could move around something three times as big.

Iron is 8 times denser than flesh. Yoda can pull a starfighter (probably massing 10 tons or more) out of a swamp, which requires double the amount of force it would take to lift it under normal conditions. What makes you think a Balrog, which is mostly air and fire, will weigh more than 10 tons?

He can't shoot Force Lightning at it (who knows if it would help anyways)

He can dissipate incoming energy at will, as we saw with Dooku's force lightning.

and a big glow stick that gives of thermal heat is really gonna help against a being of fire.

Don't be an idiot. A Balrog still has a physical body under its fire; why do you think it has weight, can cause a bridge to fail, makes footsteps which can be heard, etc? The fact that something emanates flame does not mean it is immune to heat; a flamethrower emanates fire, but if you touch it with a lightsabre, it will still blow up.

[HemlockGrey]

He can dissipate incoming energy at will, as we saw with Dooku's force lightning.

Is there any indication as to how much energy he can dissipate?

[Darth Wong]

He can dissipate incoming energy at will, as we saw with Dooku's force lightning.

Is there any indication as to how much energy he can dissipate?

Not that I know of, although it shouldn't really matter. Yoda could simply Force-shove him off that bridge without getting anywhere close to him. The force required to lift >10 tons of starfighter out of that swamp or stop that huge metallic column from falling (anyone who's ever worked with metal should know how fucking massive that thing had to be) is more than adequate for the job.

And if it takes place on some flat plain, Yoda isn't stupid; if he can't jump to the top of the Balrog's head for the lightsabre-thru-skull strike, he can simply grab a blaster and start taking pieces out of him until he falls.

[Balrog]

Yoda's powers recap:
- can melt any metallic object with his lightsabre, can make things burst in flame by touching them with his lightsabre
- manipulate objects massing ten tons or more without any special devices to help him
- can become briefly invisible/intangible if necessary
- if you let him pick up a blaster, he can blow up pretty much anything in Middle Earth. And giving Gandalf his toys is hardly fair if you don't give Yoda his toys.

-Not only does it require his lightsaber, he has to get within melee range in order to melt said object.
-Alright, props to that too
-Since when does that little muppet become invisible?
-And since when has Yoda ever used a blaster? Wouldn't it be below his mastery of the Force to use such technology?

Iron is 8 times denser than flesh. Yoda can pull a starfighter (probably massing 10 tons or more) out of a swamp, which requires double the amount of force it would take to lift it under normal conditions. What makes you think a Balrog, which is mostly air and fire, will weigh more than 10 tons?

Because the Balrog looks to be made fire, iron, and probably some other molten rocks. Besides, the Yoda that moved a starfighter could barely move itself, had to have someone stick their hand up its ass ^_^

He can dissipate incoming energy at will, as we saw with Dooku's force lightning.

So if the little guy bursts into flame, he's just gonna absorb it and have not a scratch on him?

Don't be an idiot. A Balrog still has a physical body under its fire; why do you think it has weight, can cause a bridge to fail, makes footsteps which can be heard, etc? The fact that something emanates flame does not mean it is immune to heat; a flamethrower emanates fire, but if you touch it with a lightsabre, it will still blow up.

Alright, so say Yoda sticks his little lightsaber into the Balrog (if he can get close enough? looked like it was putting out a lot of heat). Is he expecting to hit some vital organ? From the way the WETA described how they made the Balrog in the SE, it's more like a firey body within an outer crust. So Yoda can take away all the rocks he wants, cause last time I remember a lightsaber don't do shit to fire.

[Darth Wong]

Yoda's powers recap:
- can melt any metallic object with his lightsabre, can make things burst in flame by touching them with his lightsabre
- manipulate objects massing ten tons or more without any special devices to help him
- can become briefly invisible/intangible if necessary
- if you let him pick up a blaster, he can blow up pretty much anything in Middle Earth. And giving Gandalf his toys is hardly fair if you don't give Yoda his toys.

-Not only does it require his lightsaber, he has to get within melee range in order to melt said object.
-Alright, props to that too
-Since when does that little muppet become invisible?
-And since when has Yoda ever used a blaster? Wouldn't it be below his mastery of the Force to use such technology?

Yoda isn't stupid; if it's appropriate to call in a shitload of heavily armed clonetroopers, he's more than willing to do that. So I don't see any reason to believe that against an enemy which is several stories tall, he'll try to get into melee range rather than using a ranged weapon. As for briefly turning invisible, we saw Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do it in TPM. See "Jedi Invisibility Powers" in the Pure SW forum.

Because the Balrog looks to be made fire, iron, and probably some other molten rocks.

All of which would be destroyed by a lightsabre. We're talking about something that plunges through a three foot thick blast door with little resistance.

He can dissipate incoming energy at will, as we saw with Dooku's force lightning.

So if the little guy bursts into flame, he's just gonna absorb it and have not a scratch on him?

Who said he'll burst into flame?

Alright, so say Yoda sticks his little lightsaber into the Balrog (if he can get close enough? looked like it was putting out a lot of heat). Is he expecting to hit some vital organ?

Jump on its head and stick the lightsabre in. If he can't get up that high, he can just use a blaster to take him apart piece by piece from a distance, knock him off a precipice if available, or keep hitting him with big rocks until he falls.

From the way the WETA described how they made the Balrog in the SE, it's more like a firey body within an outer crust. So Yoda can take away all the rocks he wants, cause last time I remember a lightsaber don't do shit to fire.

And if we're going to invoke special-effects arguments, fire don't do shit to CGI Yoda, who exists as numbers

[Balrog]

Yoda isn't stupid; if it's appropriate to call in a shitload of heavily armed clonetroopers, he's more than willing to do that. So I don't see any reason to believe that against an enemy which is several stories tall, he'll try to get into melee range rather than using a ranged weapon. As for briefly turning invisible, we saw Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do it in TPM. See "Jedi Invisibility Powers" in the Pure SW forum.

Hmmm, seems we're getting off topic of Gandalf vs Yoda Anyways, this is just between the two characters and what they normally carried into battle, otherwise I shall invoke the massive Balrog and Dragon forces of Melkor on your ass

All of which would be destroyed by a lightsabre. We're talking about something that plunges through a three foot thick blast door with little resistance.

Lightsabes can destroy rocks but it can't destroy fire. This being is bascially an entity of fire and lava covered by molten rocks, iron, whatnot. Sure, some parts are probably pure rock (the Balrog's tusks, for example) but it's like using a flamethrower or a Molotov cocktail on the Balrog.

Who said he'll burst into flame?

Gandalf has control over the elements of Fire. He set Aragorn's sword ablaze and incinerated Legolas' arrow midflight. It's not like he'll throw an easily-deflected fireball at you, he'll make you spontaniously combust.

And if we're going to invoke special-effects arguments, fire don't do shit to CGI Yoda, who exists as numbers

Then Gandalf would win by default, since a CGI creature isn't real and he wouldn't have to fight a thing ^_^

[Darth Wong]

Hmmm, seems we're getting off topic of Gandalf vs Yoda Anyways, this is just between the two characters and what they normally carried into battle, otherwise I shall invoke the massive Balrog and Dragon forces of Melkor on your ass

You don't even want to think about escalation against someone who can call in orbital turbolaser strikes on your ass, pal. As for the subject, you were talking about a Balrog, so don't blame me. I'm just pointing out that against that type of opponent, I'm sure Yoda would go for a ranged weapon.

All of which would be destroyed by a lightsabre. We're talking about something that plunges through a three foot thick blast door with little resistance.

Lightsabes can destroy rocks but it can't destroy fire.

It doesn't have to. It only has to destroy the head of the solid creature inside the fire.

This being is bascially an entity of fire and lava covered by molten rocks, iron, whatnot. Sure, some parts are probably pure rock (the Balrog's tusks, for example) but it's like using a flamethrower or a Molotov cocktail on the Balrog.

No, it isn't. A flamethrower or Molotov cocktail is not even a remote comparison to a lightsabre. This is more like using an anti-tank weapon against a Balrog.

Gandalf has control over the elements of Fire. He set Aragorn's sword ablaze and incinerated Legolas' arrow midflight. It's not like he'll throw an easily-deflected fireball at you, he'll make you spontaniously combust.

Ah, so now we're talking about Gandalf again, eh? Stop changing combatants; if you want to start seamlessly switching between Balrogs and Gandalf to attack Yoda, I'll call in some fucking LAAT air support and get medieval on your ass

Anyway, Gandalf's parlour tricks didn't seem to be available when confronted by Orcs. Try again. If he can't kill orcs by simply lighting them on fire, he can't do it to Yoda, particularly when Yoda can absorb energy.

The point remains that Yoda has much more powerful TK than Gandalf, and Yoda can take Gandalf's staff away from him with that TK, thus removing much of his ability.

And if we're going to invoke special-effects arguments, fire don't do shit to CGI Yoda, who exists as numbers

Then Gandalf would win by default, since a CGI creature isn't real and he wouldn't have to fight a thing ^_^

No, Gandalf would lose, since Ian Mclellan is a cool guy but your average CGI department has many guys who are much younger. A half-dozen graphic arts people may not be the toughest hombres in the world, but they can still kick one old guy's ass

[starfury]

Didnt he also destroy a warlock or something along those lines one the edge of mirkwood as well?

that was sauron himself , I think before he left for mordor. he briefly stayed there before returning to his old stomping grounds.

[Morat]

As Saruman showed, mortals can't resist the voice of the Istari. Gandalf could just order Yoda to stop fighting.

He could also hit Yoda with a lightning bolt, as he did against the Balrog (lightning was specifically mentioned when Gandalf was talking about the battle).

- manipulate objects massing ten tons or more without any special devices to help him

Haun, a Maia, was smashing mountains by accident when he got into a physical fight with one of Morgoth's cronies.

[Morat]

You don't even want to think about escalation against someone who can call in orbital turbolaser strikes on your ass, pal.

Of course, if were continally escalating, why stop at mere starships? We can bring in Illuvatar if we have to.

[Darth Wong]

As Saruman showed, mortals can't resist the voice of the Istari. Gandalf could just order Yoda to stop fighting.

Sounds like a Jedi mind trick. Big deal; Yoda's seen it before.

He could also hit Yoda with a lightning bolt, as he did against the Balrog (lightning was specifically mentioned when Gandalf was talking about the battle).

And Yoda can absorb lightning or fire it back at the user, remember?

- manipulate objects massing ten tons or more without any special devices to help him

Haun, a Maia, was smashing mountains by accident when he got into a physical fight with one of Morgoth's cronies.

Right, but Gandalf needs the Men of Gondor to help smite a few thousand Orcs at Helms Deep, and Saruman has to build aforementioned army in order to present a threat to those men

[Darth Wong]

You don't even want to think about escalation against someone who can call in orbital turbolaser strikes on your ass, pal.

Of course, if were continally escalating, why stop at mere starships? We can bring in Illuvatar if we have to.

And we'll just BDZ your ass. Superstitious fools and their imaginary deities are a lot smaller when viewed from orbit.

[Morat]

And we'll just BDZ your ass. Superstitious fools and their imaginary deities are a lot smaller when viewed from orbit.

Those imaginary starships don't look so hot compared to an entity that can create and destroy entire universes.

[The Dark]

Don't forget that Saruman was one Aule's people and thus, he would have had great knowledge of metals and metal work. He even made his own.

Did Gandalf have mastery over fire or rather was it his Elvish ring that gave him this power?

It was the Ring of Fire, Narya. Gandalf didn't use it often because it would let Sauron know where he was (since the Ring was linked to Sauron and the Rings to the Ring). Galadriel and Elrond would use their Rings since they stayed in one place (and Elrond was the one who created the wall of water, not Arwen).

Also, Gandalf was a Maiar of Manwe (although there are supposedly some sources saying Lorien). Manwe was the Maiar of the air, sky, and wisdom.

Speaking of the Blue Istari, there's a theory that one of them is the Witch-King of Angmar, transformed by Sauron, because Gandalf mentions a connection between the Istari and the Witch-King. I personally don't lend much credence to this theory, since it says plainly that the Nine Rings went to Men, and doesn't mention any Istari.

[Morat]

Sounds like a Jedi mind trick. Big deal; Yoda's seen it before.

Mind tricks are effective against weak minded people. The voice of Istari are effective against everyone (except Valar and Maiar, of course), including elves and Numenoreans.

And Yoda can absorb lightning or fire it back at the user, remember?

Since the Emperor's lightning took quite a bit of time to kill Luke, I don't think it was as powerful as real lightning.

Right, but Gandalf needs the Men of Gondor to help smite a few thousand Orcs at Helms Deep

As he demonstrated in The Hobbit, he could have taken on that entire army by himself. However, the Valar (and possibly Illuvatar) have forbidden him to use his powers except in certain circumstances.

and Saruman has to build aforementioned army in order to present a threat to those men

Not really. As he showed at Isengard, he could have easily made all those men surrender with a few words, if he had been allowed to use his powers that way.

[Balrog]

You don't even want to think about escalation against someone who can call in orbital turbolaser strikes on your ass, pal. As for the subject, you were talking about a Balrog, so don't blame me. I'm just pointing out that against that type of opponent, I'm sure Yoda would go for a ranged weapon.

Then I call down the Valar and Ilúvatar from on high to smite ye infidels

It doesn't have to. It only has to destroy the head of the solid creature inside the fire.

Except the head of the creature is also mostly fire covered in rock, except for some parts like the tusks.

No, it isn't. A flamethrower or Molotov cocktail is not even a remote comparison to a lightsabre. This is more like using an anti-tank weapon against a Balrog.

And would be just about as successful as using an anti-tank weapon against the Balrog. A lightsaber gives off a lot of thermal energy, otherwise it wouldn't have melted the blast doors. Talk about feeding the fire

Ah, so now we're talking about Gandalf again, eh? Stop changing combatants; if you want to start seamlessly switching between Balrogs and Gandalf to attack Yoda, I'll call in some fucking LAAT air support and get medieval on your ass

Anyway, Gandalf's parlour tricks didn't seem to be available when confronted by Orcs. Try again. If he can't kill orcs by simply lighting them on fire, he can't do it to Yoda, particularly when Yoda can absorb energy.

The point remains that Yoda has much more powerful TK than Gandalf, and Yoda can take Gandalf's staff away from him with that TK, thus removing much of his ability.

I was keeping it on the original subject . The reason the Valar sent the Istari to Middle Earth was to guide the younger races, not fight their battles for them. This is why people ask "Well, why didn't he kill all those orcs?" It's because the Valar don't want the races of Middle Earth to become dependant on them to save the day. Besides, that was Gandalf the Grey in Moria, and we never had to see wither he would have used his powers or not

It really becomes a contest of who's faster: Could Yoda pull away Gandalf's staff before he becomes a fried frog? Can Yoda force the staff out of Gandalf's hand (Saruman was more powerful when he pulled Gandalf's staff away)? And would Gandalf need his staff to turn Yoda on fire (Saurmon didn't use it to pull the staff away)

No, Gandalf would lose, since Ian Mclellan is a cool guy but your average CGI department has many guys who are much younger. A half-dozen graphic arts people may not be the toughest hombres in the world, but they can still kick one old guy's ass

Bah, I've seen those CGI guys that worked on Yoda, they're a bunch of geeks that could get beaten up by the local elementary school football team much less a talented old man

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Let's review the Balrog vs Gandalf fight.


1. Before they even meet Gandalf is using magic to slow down the Balrog.
2. Gandalf says swords are useless. Some may say "But then how'd Gandalf use his sword?" However he obviously used his magic on it. Normal blades can't survive contact even with Nazgul, which are Eagle scouts compared to the most feared servants of the Dark Lord. And every time Gandalf struck the Balrog, there was a flash of white light.
3. The Balrog takes a swing at Gandalf. Using his sword, Gandalf blocks and sends the Balrog's sword flying. Even if the Balrog was only using his physical strength and no magic, this is impressive.
4. Gandalf knocks the bridge down. The fact that his staff should have shattered proves what really collapsed the bridge, along with another flash of light.
5. They start fighting even as they fall. Gandalf wacks it a few times, and gets wacked in return.
6. They hit the bottum. It has cold water, putting out the Balrog's flames. Even into water this fall should have killed them both.
7. For 8 days they fight. Finally the Balrog runs, pursued by Gandalf.
8. Untop of a mountain peak the Balrog bursts into flames once again and they fight. Finally Gandalf throws it down, smashing a mountain side.

[Darth Wong]

You don't even want to think about escalation against someone who can call in orbital turbolaser strikes on your ass, pal. As for the subject, you were talking about a Balrog, so don't blame me. I'm just pointing out that against that type of opponent, I'm sure Yoda would go for a ranged weapon.

Then I call down the Valar and Ilúvatar from on high to smite ye infidels

Small problems:

1) Their abilities to directly do anything to anyone on Earth are apocryphal; they did not appear in the actual LOTR trilogy or any other material published by Tolkien himself.

2) They do not answer to Gandalf. The clone army does answer to Yoda.

Except the head of the creature is also mostly fire covered in rock, except for some parts like the tusks.

So? Break open the head, and it's still dead. Unless you're suggesting that its physical body is completely unnecessary, in which case the obvious question would be "why does it have one?"

And would be just about as successful as using an anti-tank weapon against the Balrog. A lightsaber gives off a lot of thermal energy, otherwise it wouldn't have melted the blast doors. Talk about feeding the fire

I'm afraid you don't get it; it blows apart his physical body, and fire cannot sustain itself without some kind of base. Goodbye, Balrog.

I was keeping it on the original subject . The reason the Valar sent the Istari to Middle Earth was to guide the younger races, not fight their battles for them. This is why people ask "Well, why didn't he kill all those orcs?" It's because the Valar don't want the races of Middle Earth to become dependant on them to save the day. Besides, that was Gandalf the Grey in Moria, and we never had to see wither he would have used his powers or not

Excuses, excuses ... the point remains that we've never seen any of these awesome powers in use, and the supposedly mega-powerful beings that govern all of these things aren't much good for anything in this debate if they won't interfere, so why bother mentioning them? You're still doing everything in your power to take this away from Gandalf on his own vs Yoda on his own, both using their observed abilities.

It really becomes a contest of who's faster: Could Yoda pull away Gandalf's staff before he becomes a fried frog? Can Yoda force the staff out of Gandalf's hand (Saruman was more powerful when he pulled Gandalf's staff away)? And would Gandalf need his staff to turn Yoda on fire (Saurmon didn't use it to pull the staff away)

Yoda can see into the future. This is no small advantage. Yoda reacts faster.

Bah, I've seen those CGI guys that worked on Yoda, they're a bunch of geeks that could get beaten up by the local elementary school football team much less a talented old man

A lot of geeks are meaner than they look

[The Dark]

2. Gandalf says swords are useless. Some may say "But then how'd Gandalf use his sword?" However he obviously used his magic on it. Normal blades can't survive contact even with Nazgul, which are Eagle scouts compared to the most feared servants of the Dark Lord. And every time Gandalf struck the Balrog, there was a flash of white light.

Don't forget that the sword is magical also. I forget whether his is Orcrist or Glamdring, but it's one of the two.

6. They hit the bottom. It has cold water, putting out the Balrog's flames. Even into water this fall should have killed them both.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from very high altitudes, water is the worst thing to fall into because it won't compress at all. Even moderately high falls are worse onto water than normal ground.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Sorry as much as I like Star Wars and prefer tech over fantasy the Blarog just owns any muppet out there.

I really must get around to reading LotR again.

I remember that the Valar and Maiar have intervened before, Eru did once and basically stopped a war I think, I'll have to check (he also banished Morgoth from the realms of Middle-earth too).

[Darth Wong]

How much of this stuff took place in LOTR or the Hobbit, and how much of it is documented in the apocrypha?

[Darth Wong]

PS. Stop assuming that magical > technological. I'm sick of that assumption; you must always justify it. And if you blow apart a Balrog with high explosives, it doesn't fucking matter whether he's made of fire; he has no physical body, and dissipates. Goodbye.