Mimbari- pussies?

[SyntaxVorlon]

The Minbari represent the Israelites.
The Vorlons represent God.
The Shadows represent Satan.
The Younger Races represent modern pluralistic society.

The Minbari weren't pussies so much as assholes who looked for any excuse to scream that their enemies are the bad guys, not them (even though they're genocidal maniacs). Sound familiar?

The minbari become part of that pluralism at the end and are part and parcel with the peaceful ISA for 500 years, up to when the EA fragments and 2784 governments pop up about to make a pre-emptive strike on civilians, then they scorch earth, but they are more like an asiatic nation on earth, though they are quite unique. They are passive aggressive and their warriors had been sitting on their heels for centuries, they were arming for the coming conflict with the Shadows, so they were raring to go, and then the EA got in their scopes, and they were ready to wipe it out. But they quickly found regret at their hasty violence and the destruction they had cause but being old and inflexible, they could not see a way out of war. Though the idea that they are the unasking servants of the vorlons is clear, before metamorphasis Delenn had to see Kosh in his true form to 'know' what she was doing was 'right.'
The Vorlons and Shadows represent the idealisms of the respective 'good' and 'evil' seen in Judeo Christianity. The Angels of order and the Demons of chaos. Both are pretenders, trying to be gods to the young races and bring them to their side. The only god character is Lorien, the FIRST one, he is more a deist's diety, having no part in the universe for thousands of years. But he champions for the pluralists to free themselves of the ideals of the past.
Sheridan, Delenn, and Sinclar form the trinity of the One, a biblical/tolkien referance. They control the central position in a crux for the galaxy's future. There is a definate 'jesus' quality in Sheridan, coming back from hell, but this could be from tolkien. The idea that this story is based on the bible is not farfetched, but it isn't far reaching into the story itself. Sheridan was the champion of the people, Sinclar was the religion of the Minbari, and Delenn was the one who brought the minbari to war after hundreds of years. The trinity issue is based in the Minbari religion, not christianity.

[MKSheppard]

And everyone was supposed to get rid of their stockpiles of Mustard Gas after WWI, look how well that turned out..

We're actually burning our Chemical stockpiles....they're going up in this
huge incinerator down in Nevada...

[Perinquus]

1. Where did you get that from.

2. Read the description of any ancient campaign. You will find a lot of similarities to what you have just described.

1. The Bible. Numbers, chapter 31 in fact.

2. Not any ancient campaign. The problem is that the Israelites had a religion that looked upon other faiths as inherently evil, which in in stark contrast to other peoples' faiths. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, Germans, Vikings, and many other ancient and mediecal pagan peoples not only didn't mind that other people worshipped different gods, they sometimes assimilated gods from other faiths. These peoples had no real missionary spirit, and no incentive to kill people in the name of religion.

[Chris OFarrell]

1. Where did you get that from.

2. Read the description of any ancient campaign. You will find a lot of similarities to what you have just described.

1. The Bible. Numbers, chapter 31 in fact.

2. Not any ancient campaign. The problem is that the Israelites had a religion that looked upon other faiths as inherently evil, which in in stark contrast to other peoples' faiths. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, Germans, Vikings, and many other ancient and mediecal pagan peoples not only didn't mind that other people worshipped different gods, they sometimes assimilated gods from other faiths. These peoples had no real missionary spirit, and no incentive to kill people in the name of religion.

And thats putting it lightly. I've read through the OT at times and the number of Times God commands no-one to even THINK of worshiping, being friendly with, or doing anything BUT wiping out another race is stagering. Hell I remember once, a nation in the path of them secretly signed a peace treaty with them under the guise of poor people from far away beacuse otherwise they would have been slaughtered. When the Israelites found out, they went skitso and were going to kill them all until they remember they had signed a treaty.

So they just put them into slavery instead. Oh how nice was that.....

[Sokar]

Why do we have to re-visit all this Israel crap......I thought this thread was about the Minbari, now were arguing about the fucking Jews again...........Maybe we should change the name of this place to Messhugenah.net........sheesh

[Vympel]

*parachutes in*

this thread has been liberated by its creator!

Didn't everyone agree on an Israel debate halt?

(or was that just Israel-Palestine)

[Perinquus]

That was Israel-Palestine. This is the ancient Israelites. Far as I know their still fair game.

[Crown]

Well anyway. No the Minbari aren't pussies, they just know how to hold a grudge... Maybe their Greek?

[Crown]

That should read; they're not their.....

[Stormbringer]

That was Israel-Palestine. This is the ancient Israelites. Far as I know their still fair game.

But not here.

[phongn]

Need I remind you that we have an aggressive superpower berating other countries for trying to develop nuclear and biological weapons while simultaneously hoarding huge stockpiles of said weapons themselves?

I don't see any problem with the analogy.

Why don't you STFU, Wong. Congress has directed the US Military
to destroy all Chemical weapons stockpiles by 2007, and we destroyed
all of our Bio weapons in the 70s....

2004. The treaty we signed dictates no later than April 2007, but Congress had already taken action and set a sooner date.

[Darth Wong]

(sigh) before all the fucking thread hijackers got into the act, I made a simple point about an obvious Biblical parallel to Babylon5. That point stands; most of the "rebuttals" have had nothing to do with it. FGalkin's refusal to admit that the OT Israelites were genocidal maniacs and Shep's ardent nationalism are red herrings.

The point remains that the Minbari were not "pussies" for their reaction to Starkiller; they were evil, genocidal maniacs and they were looking for flimsy excuses to pretend that they were the wronged party (as if genocide is a reasonable response to the death of one man, no matter who the fuck he is, or one ship, no matter how it died).

The fact that this mirrors the OT Israelite behaviour is an interesting parallel to the general religion-related themes in B5; if people want to get all pissy and try to pretend that my point was somehow related to anti-Semitism, they just make themselves look like jack-asses.

[Captain Kruger]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, allow me to help get this thread back on track.

To put it bluntly, FUCK THE MINBARI. Wong is dead-on in his assessment — they're genocidal maniacs. I don't care what the particulars of their civilization are, I don't care how many centuries their snotty warriors have gone without getting to vent their frustrations in battle, and most of all, I give absolutely jack shit for how much of a saint they thought Dukhat was. The incident that sparked the war was due to screw-ups on both sides. The Humans sent a trigger-happy idiot on a first contact who was more interested in protecting his own ass and making a name for himself than using common sense. The Minbari stupidly never thought for even a moment that maybe, just maybe, another species wouldn't take open gun ports as a friendly gesture.

No matter who was responsible, the arrogant Boneheads decided in their infinite wisdom that the death of one holy man should be repaid with the deaths of 20 billion (EA population at the time, IIRC) men, women, and CHILDREN. Yes, I would just love to hear a good Minbari excuse for mass-murdering kids. Minbari "warriors", Islamic "warriors"…no friggin' difference as far as I'm concerned.

And then, as if the slaughter that was the E/M war wasn't offense enough, they have the gall to hate Humans even more for using "dishonorable" tactics against them, i.e., actually finding ways to try to survive a little longer against a vastly superior force. What exactly would have been the honorable thing to do, line up for the slaughter and hope we might take a few chunks out of their ships before we get blown out of space? Please!

I do take one solace — Neroon, the most arrogant, Human-hating Minbari of them all, got burned at the stake.

On another note, as far as I'm concerned, Interstellar Alliance or not, Minbar owes war reparations to Earth. If Earth does eventually become stronger than Minbar, they should push for those reparations, and if they don't get them, kick Bonehead ass.

[His Divine Shadow]

WTF is up with the Mimbari?

I'd like to know WTF is up with people spelling Minbari as "Mimbari"?
WTF???

[His Divine Shadow]

<wonders if this thread will degenerate into speculation about Minbari reproductive equipment...>

Or fake images of Delenn and futuristic oversized dildos.

[SAMAS]

<wonders if this thread will degenerate into speculation about Minbari reproductive equipment...>

Or fake images of Delenn and futuristic oversized dildos.

Oh, do you have any?

Overall, I feel that the Minbari's overall reaction to Dukhat's death could've been very similar to the American reaction to 9/11. The Minbari were pissed, but not genocidal at that point.

Delenn, however, was in a far worse state of mind. Blinded by grief and rage(the man was like a father to her, after all), she called for what was probably the first thing on her mind. MAKE. THEM. PAY!!

Unfortunately, by the time she regained her bearings, it was too late, and the Minbari(The Warrior Caste, at least) had become Genocidal Maniacs.

As a comparison, who here thinks that Afganistan would be anything more than a parking lot if, say, any member of Dubya's family had been a victim of 9/11?

[Captain Kruger]

Overall, I feel that the Minbari's overall reaction to Dukhat's death could've been very similar to the American reaction to 9/11. The Minbari were pissed, but not genocidal at that point.

Delenn, however, was in a far worse state of mind. Blinded by grief and rage(the man was like a father to her, after all), she called for what was probably the first thing on her mind. MAKE. THEM. PAY!!

Unfortunately, by the time she regained her bearings, it was too late, and the Minbari(The Warrior Caste, at least) had become Genocidal Maniacs.

As a comparison, who here thinks that Afganistan would be anything more than a parking lot if, say, any member of Dubya's family had been a victim of 9/11?

You raise a good point. However, many in the US government (particularly Democrats) would have raked Bush over a cheese grater if they thought he was using the most powerful military on Earth to flatten a third-world country out of personal grief. If it was found that he stepped way over his bounds and permanently damaged America's image, he would have been called to task on it. Of course, some would say this is what he's doing anyway, but that's another discussion.

In any event, I was under the impression that the Minbari populace as a whole never even thought of questioning the Great Holy War to Murder a Species. The wisdom of the Gray Council was supposed to be absolute. The Worker and Religious Castes are nothing but a bunch of lambs and the Warrior Caste are just a bad hybrid of Klingons and the snobby Vulcans from Enterprise. The whole species is worthless and pathetic. Am I generalizing? You bet. Let's keep in mind that EVERY SINGLE MINBARI is a member of one of these three castes and is expected to tow their party line. They can be judged as an entire species just as easily as the Borg can.

The only kudo I'll give the Minbari is that the built the White Star, the second-prettiest starship in all of science fiction.

[Enlightenment]

"I say to our enemies, we are coming. God may show you mercy. We will not." -- Sen. John Mccain, 12 Sept 2001.

"No mercy" -- Delenn, Atonement/ItB

EA launched an unprovoked attack against the Minbari government, killing both its leader and several members of the GC. In the real world, anyone who doubts that the United States--and most other nuclear-armed countries--would react to an attack on its government leading to the death of its head of state and several cabinet ministers with anything less than a nuclear countervalue strike is quite simply deluded. Go one gets to take potshots at heads of state without suffering the consequences. EA got exactly what they deserved.

The Minbari fought an extremely clean war by any standard. All this talk about the boneheads wiping out humanity is just more retroactively-added bullshit--akin to Lucas making Greedo shoot first--that's hardly supported by operational evidence.

[Stormbringer]

Enlightenment is right. For all their talk of no mercy they inflicted remarkably low casulaties. They did slaughter military personel and civilians of target of military value. But they killed remarkably few, only a quarter of a million according to JMS. That with 19,800 dead at The Line. Hardly genocide by anyones standards.

[SAMAS]

Actually, from what I remember, they were planning on eliminating all resistance, then coming back later for everyone else.

[Alex Moon]

Enlightenment is right. For all their talk of no mercy they inflicted remarkably low casulaties. They did slaughter military personel and civilians of target of military value. But they killed remarkably few, only a quarter of a million according to JMS. That with 19,800 dead at The Line. Hardly genocide by anyones standards.

And the Nazis only slaughtered 6 million jews during the holocaust, there were still Jews alive after the war

They were willing and planning to commit genocide. That makes them evil. Note that they're entire race went along with it, even those who thought it was wrong. That makes them evil.

[Alex Moon]

"I say to our enemies, we are coming. God may show you mercy. We will not." -- Sen. John Mccain, 12 Sept 2001.

"No mercy" -- Delenn, Atonement/ItB

EA launched an unprovoked attack against the Minbari government, killing both its leader and several members of the GC. In the real world, anyone who doubts that the United States--and most other nuclear-armed countries--would react to an attack on its government leading to the death of its head of state and several cabinet ministers with anything less than a nuclear countervalue strike is quite simply deluded. Go one gets to take potshots at heads of state without suffering the consequences. EA got exactly what they deserved.

The incident in which Dukhat was killed was a missunderstanding, brought on by a failure of communication. It would be equivalent to a foreign nation firing at a unidentified target in their airspace that wasn't responding to their hails, only to discover it was Airforce One and that there had been a commications breakdown between them and the plane.

The Minbari fought an extremely clean war by any standard. All this talk about the boneheads wiping out humanity is just more retroactively-added bullshit--akin to Lucas making Greedo shoot first--that's hardly supported by operational evidence.

They were planning on going back and killing the surviving colonists after they had taken care of Earth first. The fact that you don't like that they were willing to commit genocide doesn't make it any less a fact of the show.

[Captain Kruger]

And the Nazis only slaughtered 6 million jews during the holocaust, there were still Jews alive after the war

They were willing and planning to commit genocide. That makes them evil. Note that they're entire race went along with it, even those who thought it was wrong. That makes them evil.

Amen, Alex. I think far too many people have been making excuses for the Minbari because:

1. Many think they have the coolest ships in B5.
2. They initiated the Rangers and the Army of Light, plus were a major reason for the ISA getting started.

Neither of these things changes the fact that they were genocidal psychopaths. What's even worse is that they have NEVER been called upon to even so much as make an apology for an unjustified holy war, let alone pay reparations for it. Germany and Japan were brought to their knees for such barbarity.

"I say to our enemies, we are coming. God may show you mercy. We will not." -- Sen. John Mccain, 12 Sept 2001.

"No mercy" -- Delenn, Atonement/ItB

EA launched an unprovoked attack against the Minbari government, killing both its leader and several members of the GC. In the real world, anyone who doubts that the United States--and most other nuclear-armed countries--would react to an attack on its government leading to the death of its head of state and several cabinet ministers with anything less than a nuclear countervalue strike is quite simply deluded. Go one gets to take potshots at heads of state without suffering the consequences. EA got exactly what they deserved.

Oh yeah…like this is reeeallly an accurate analogy. Ahem…correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that every single nation on Earth knows who the United States is and what we're like. This is no "first contact" situation…there have been none of those on Earth for centuries. That is NOTHING like meeting a totally alien species for the first time…who just happens to think flashing their fucking ships' guns won't look hostile.

The Minbari fought an extremely clean war by any standard. All this talk about the boneheads wiping out humanity is just more retroactively-added bullshit--akin to Lucas making Greedo shoot first--that's hardly supported by operational evidence.

WHAT?!?! Are you nuts? There's nothing retroactive here! There is no B5 Special Edition where JMS changed canon! It has been stated from the very beginning, even by the Minbari themselves, on COUNTLESS OCCASIONS throughout the series, that the obliteration of Earth was the eventual goal. Did you somehow watch a different version of B5 than the rest of world?

What the hell are you talking about?

[Stormbringer]

Enlightenment is right. For all their talk of no mercy they inflicted remarkably low casulaties. They did slaughter military personel and civilians of target of military value. But they killed remarkably few, only a quarter of a million according to JMS. That with 19,800 dead at The Line. Hardly genocide by anyones standards.

And the Nazis only slaughtered 6 million jews during the holocaust, there were still Jews alive after the war

They were willing and planning to commit genocide. That makes them evil. Note that they're entire race went along with it, even those who thought it was wrong. That makes them evil.

Some of the Minbari were in a genocidal mood. Not all of the were or they never would spared the planetay populations. That to me implies there is debate among the Minbari. One sufficiently powerful as to delay the "final solution".

And if you didn't notice, the less genocidal faction did try to make peace and avoid genocide. They couldn't stop the war, the warriors had the ships and guns and the mandate to use them. Instead they did the best they could to stop them. And luckly succeeded.

[Alex Moon]

Enlightenment is right. For all their talk of no mercy they inflicted remarkably low casulaties. They did slaughter military personel and civilians of target of military value. But they killed remarkably few, only a quarter of a million according to JMS. That with 19,800 dead at The Line. Hardly genocide by anyones standards.

And the Nazis only slaughtered 6 million jews during the holocaust, there were still Jews alive after the war

They were willing and planning to commit genocide. That makes them evil. Note that they're entire race went along with it, even those who thought it was wrong. That makes them evil.

Some of the Minbari were in a genocidal mood. Not all of the were or they never would spared the planetay populations. That to me implies there is debate among the Minbari. One sufficiently powerful as to delay the "final solution".

Sparing the planetary populations could have been an act of convenience. If they had slaughtered them outright they would be facing stiffer resistance from a world whose inhabitants knew that they weren't going to live anyways. It's the same thing as what happened on the fourth flight on 9/11, the one that went down in Penn. The passengers knew they were going to die if they stayed still, so they risked fighting back.

And if you didn't notice, the less genocidal faction did try to make peace and avoid genocide. They couldn't stop the war, the warriors had the ships and guns and the mandate to use them. Instead they did the best they could to stop them. And luckly succeeded.

They conducted secret negotiations, and from what I gathered from the show, they never spoke out publically about ending the war. Remember that the original vote for war was tied 4-4 before Delenn voted. Why weren't they proposing an open embassy to arrange a peace treaty? The warrior caste may have the ships and guns, but they would still have to follow the will of the counsel if it sought an end to the war other than genocide. BTW, they only succeded at the end because they convinced the Grey Counsel that there were religious reasons why they couldn't kill humans, never that the war should be stopped because it was wrong.