Elementals (Btech) Vs. Stromtroopers

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-22 10:48pm

Close. It was his dad, Hanse Davion. And to answer Sir Wong, because it's a mecha game.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-22 11:10pm

Vejut wrote:Close. It was his dad, Hanse Davion. And to answer Sir Wong, because it's a mecha game.

Knew it was one of those Davions. That's right, Victor's the MechJock, Hanse developed the JumpChain and the combined arms tactics. Wow...it's actually kinda coming back to me now. Of course, I always thought the Draconis Combine could be powerful if they'd get over the medieval Japanese government style. Allowing shoguns (or whatever they called them) to exist is unwise.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2003-01-25 01:25am

Darth Wong wrote:The only way a BTech mech could get anywhere close to an AT-AT is if it can approach under cover of terrain, like in a mountainous environment.

You could also use the Mechwarrior RPG ranges for weapons, instead of the boardgame ranges, as they are sometimes considerably longer.

Slacker · Post by **Slacker** » 2003-01-25 11:10am

The Dark wrote:IIRC, Victor Steiner-Davion was the first to mess around with combined forces in the "modern" era. Until then, everyone had just assumed Mechs were superior and didn't try using combined forces. I may be wrong, though, BT history isn't my strong point.

Actually, the Star League Defense force was a Combined-Arms formation. While there were independent regiments of mechs in the SLDF, your average Star League Division consisted of a regiment or two of mechs, a couple regiments of armor, some mechanized or jump infantry, and a couple wings of fighters.

The concept of combined arms warfare was revived by Melissa Davion in the early 28th century as a way of giving the temporarily overmatched AFFS (This was back when the Capellans could still put up a fight) a means to outmatch their opponents.

Mike: Thing is, they're not. On their own, again, In The Battletech Universe, an all-mech regiment is little more expensive then a regiment of armor, and yet offers far more maneuverability, can be deployed far more quickly and in far more ways.

And, if they're Omnimechs, their logistics train is painfully simple. Every part, more or less, is "Swapable".
As for TIEs...they suck in the atmosphere, and aerospace fighters don't. Not to mention the whole...armor...thing. TIEs do not impress me, not at all.

Graeme-if you take the ranges in Aerotech 2 or Mechwarrior 3rd edition, then yes, ranges quadruple and quintuple. This is one of those "Game Balance" things that's been done for no really justifiable reason in the universe, but as a rule thing makes sense. It drives us nuts too.
Example: A hex in Battletech is 30 meters across.
Example: A hex in Aerotech is 17 kilometers across.

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-01-26 12:02pm

And, if they're Omnimechs, their logistics train is painfully simple. Every part, more or less, is "Swapable".
As for TIEs...they suck in the atmosphere, and aerospace fighters don't. Not to mention the whole...armor...thing. TIEs do not impress me, not at all.

Don't forget the omnivehicles and omnifighters. The ability to mount different loadouts on a combat unit is one heck of an advantage. Imagine if AT-ATs are omni capable... Oooohhh...

But why are we talking about all these when the original discussion was elementals against stormtroopers? Straight up infantry vs infantry fight. Considering the effectiveness of stormtroopers from the movies, I'm really inclined to give the elementals the win, especially when they can get their guts ripped out and continue fighting(Jake Kabrinski from Test of Vengeance).

The Nice Guy

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-26 12:59pm

And, if they're Omnimechs, their logistics train is painfully simple. Every part, more or less, is "Swapable".

Interesting leap in logic. Tell me, why would swappable components eliminate the need for a logistics train? They don't need ammo? They don't need fuel? They don't need spare parts? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-01-26 01:10pm

Darth Wong wrote:
And, if they're Omnimechs, their logistics train is painfully simple. Every part, more or less, is "Swapable".
Interesting leap in logic. Tell me, why would swappable components eliminate the need for a logistics train? They don't need ammo? They don't need fuel? They don't need spare parts? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

The best I can answer is that it can lessen the effect of a supply shortage. Ammo-intensive weapons like missiles and autocannons can be swapped out for energy weapons to prolong their use, or replace damaged components.

But at best it's a stop-gap measure, as there may not be more parts to go around to start, and definitely won't be later on down the line.

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-01-26 05:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:
And, if they're Omnimechs, their logistics train is painfully simple. Every part, more or less, is "Swapable".
Interesting leap in logic. Tell me, why would swappable components eliminate the need for a logistics train? They don't need ammo? They don't need fuel? They don't need spare parts? What the fuck kind of logic is this?

Not 'eliminate'. 'Simplify'.

That's one of the quirks of the BT universe. Because any given mech unit might have as many as 40-60 different designs, all with vastly different weapon manufacturers for the same type of weapon, it means the quartermaster can literally die from having to keep track of how many 80mm autocannon shells needed to be stockpiled for one specific autocannon.

Then when omnimechs came along, they almost forced all the manufacturers to start standardising their products. So instead of a quartermaster needing to keep track of 40mm, 50mm, 60mm shells for various AC/5 rated autocannons(for example), he only needs a single predetermined standard shell, since all the various bores were reduced to a single bore that could be mounted on any omnimech. Every weapon type is reduced to having only one model. So in that sense, it simplifies their logistics.

Of course, it's also possible to achieve the same by utilizing only a selected few designs that are not omnimechs using the same equipment, but then it brings in the issue of situation compatibility.

For example, one day somebody wants fire support. So the techs say 'okay', and use the prior standardized LRM pods and mount them on the mechs/tanks. Voila! The next day, the CO sez, "Get ready for a city fight with infantry". The overworked techs say 'okay', and install machine guns, flamers, and other anti-infantry stuff on the mechs/tanks.

It doesn't mean that they don't need a logistics train, it only means they only need a simplier one. They still need spare parts, fuel, and the like. But ammowise the issue is simplified, and ditto for weapons. In some cases, where only a few omnimech designs were used in lieu of 40-60 different designs, it makes logistics like engine parts etc even easier to handle.

Imagine a modern vehicle capable of mounting either an artillery gun, MLRS rocket launchers, a mass of machine guns for a city fight, or an anti-armor cannon. Instead of needing three/four different vehicles, and the more complex logistics to supply these different vehicles, one single omnitank(or four of the same model) can fulfill all these functions, with the maintainance logistics for 4 vehicles(ball bearings, tracks, engine parts etc) reduced to just one.

The Nice Guy

Lt. Nebfer · Post by **Lt. Nebfer** » 2003-01-29 01:29pm

if we realy want to be evil we can bring in the elementals frends (gnome,ect,ect)of corce we can bring in the stormtroper frends too(scout,space,ect,ect)

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 2003-01-29 03:05pm

Actually, compared to a modern military force, the 'tail' on a Mech unit will mainly be very different.

Ammunition consumption is MUCH higher... ive seen Assault designs that carried 10 tons of ammunition, and expected to use them in the course of an intense 10-20 minute firefight.

Crewing requirements for the actual AFVs (at least mechs) is much lower... usually 1 per mech. Less food, less water, less 'stuff' for the tail to bring up.

Fuel is (at least for mechs) a non-issue. Fusion powerplants that run on water. Yay!

The nature of the logistics train for a batallion with 12 different mech designs in it caused me to, many moons ago when I was playing battletech, standardize ALL the units for my small power. We used less than 10 Mech types as actual 'combat' pieces, and gave all the support roles to fusion powered vehicles.

That was always one B Tech reality problem, just all the different types of parts you need.

Still, off topic. Powered Armour>Leg Infantry.

Slacker · Post by **Slacker** » 2003-01-29 10:57pm

Marcus wrote:The nature of the logistics train for a batallion with 12 different mech designs in it caused me to, many moons ago when I was playing battletech, standardize ALL the units for my small power. We used less than 10 Mech types as actual 'combat' pieces, and gave all the support roles to fusion powered vehicles.

That was always one B Tech reality problem, just all the different types of parts you need.

Still, off topic. Powered Armour>Leg Infantry.

Was that you who came up with that alternate history with the Capellans that had Max getting offed early and some no-name Liao take the throne?

And yes, Mike, I should have been more clear. Simply, not eliminate. Simply put, all the parts for one mech can generally be subsituted for another, up to and including entire limbs on many models, and within a couple of hours.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-30 03:21am

Typhonis 1 wrote:Stormtroopers arent that much fun vs Elementals gimme SPACETROOPERS or even a Sith *L* an Elemental vs Vader would be fun

No, an Elemental vs. a DarkTrooper.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-30 12:07pm

Which variant Dark Trooper? Mk1 MK2 or MK3?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-30 01:13pm

Mk. 3

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-30 01:21pm

poor poor stupid clansmen *shakes head*