A defense of Female Space Marines

[SAMAS]

Ghetto Edit: and who the hell cares how ripped they are, they'll be in power armor anyway. I personally hate the "almost any female character must be a hot piece of ass" credo that so many media adopt to pander to the lowest common denominator of undersexed teenagers.

At which point, then, you have to ask why would you want female Space Marines in the first place.

Because it's pretty much never a matter of having mixed sexes, like say, the SPARTAN-IIs of Halo, but it's either an all-female army, or a "Special" character who happens to be female.

I mean, let's go back to the Spartan thing. Visually, we have one example each of a male Spartan(Master Chief, of course), and a female one (Nicole in Dead or Alive 4). If you were to stand their character models together, it'd probably take a while for you figure out which was which unless they removed their helmets (Haloid notwithstanding). Canonically, there are in fact female Spartans, but not very many, and that's even before the Fall of Reach. Since the Spartans are enchanced through chemical and cybernetic augmentation, rather than the implanted organs of the Space Marines, the sex of the subject didn't matter all that much. But Space Marines aren't made like that.

But the question, again, is "why?" Why do you think a Marine without Y chromosomes is so special?

Saying "Female Marine" carries about as much weight as "Blue Ruby". However much you may want it, or whatever much claiming it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, it just doesn't work that way.

[Junghalli]

But the question, again, is "why?"

Why not?

Aside from the already mentioned fluff reason, of course.

[18-Till-I-Die]

But that's just it.

"Asside from the fluff".

That's like saying, why couldnt Palpatine be Luke's father, aside from canon.

The fluff basically IS canon, including all this stuff where it never existed is silly, there is no reason to change it AT ALL. And not only that, but no logical way to do so without discounting the fluff (i.e. the canon evidence) that says otherwise.

Why not? Well that's the answer, because it'd be wrong, from a canon standpoint. Like some fan just arbitrarily saying Luke is Palps' son, some fans just, on a lark, saying that there are female space marines makes about as much sense when one looks at the background.

[Adrian Laguna]

But the question, again, is "why?" Why do you think a Marine without Y chromosomes is so special?

You can make the same argument about female guardsmen, inquisitors, pilots, drivers, magii, sanctioned psykers, etc. Not everyone wants female Marines so they can look at hot chicks in power armour, some just want gender equality. I think it's pretty clear from the way Marines are made that there's not going to be any female ones, this is unfortunate, but them's the breaks.

[Battlehymn Republic]

I'd have to disagree with that. If Palpatine was Luke's father, it fucks up the canon in a huge way. Having female Space Marines just creates some new armies, adds in a few stupid fluff justifications about the Emperor also bestowing his gifts to select womenfolk as well, and the rest of the Imperium is largely unaffected. To my knowledge. To be honest, I've never really paid attention to the Space Marines all that much.

[Junghalli]

Why not? Well that's the answer, because it'd be wrong, from a canon standpoint.

Yes, yes, I know that.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Not everyone wants female Marines so they can look at hot chicks in power armour, some just want gender equality.

Tell that to everyone who's ever sculpted female space marines. They need to lay off the humongous triple-E bosoms and tiny belly-baring waistlines in that case.

[Gullible Jones]

Why? I don't know. Maybe they think WH40K needs less Robert E. Howard and more David Weber, or something.

[Gullible Jones]

... Or it could just be teenage fanboyism, as Spanky points out above.

[Utsanomiko]

Because The Primarchs were men because the Emperor was a man.

Because Imperial genetics isn't understood well enough that you can just make million-man and woman planetary police force into super-humans by giving them 20 geneseed-bearing implants and expecting 0.1% of them to survive the process of implantation them and activation through hormones and mental conditioning/hypnotherapy.

[Adrian Laguna]

Not everyone wants female Marines so they can look at hot chicks in power armour, some just want gender equality.

Tell that to everyone who's ever sculpted female space marines. They need to lay off the humongous triple-E bosoms and tiny belly-baring waistlines in that case.

Well, maybe I'm the only one who wants gender equality then. I was always somewhat sympathetic to those who wanted female Space Marines for that reason and that reason alone. I also, however, realize that the way the fluff has been built only an all-male Marine force fits. It's not so bad really, after all even if the Marine making process did allow women to be inducted, they'd realistically only make-up a single-digit percentage of the whole force.

[Utsanomiko]

Why? you said so yourself there's no reason they wouldn't be equal with males, just like the Imperial Guard.

I don't see it as an issues for any other reason than to be disruptive and change the background, just a more visible example of insensible geneseed manipulation fan-fiction.

It's not like Marines are more than superficially men anyhow.

[Cykeisme]

Gender equality?

Never mind the fact that we're talking about a fictional force of sci-fantasy supersoldiers, and that they canonically have to be male (likely because canonically all twenty Primarchs were male), and GW has put in the Sisters of Battle for this sort of thing, and warriors in real life were and are mostly male, what does gender equality have to do with anything?

[Ford Prefect]

Apparently the already gender equal Imperium (while most characters are male, it is very clear that gender is no real obstacle to getting to the highest echelons of power), the one which regularly practices genocide, racism and hatred actually needs to be political correct.

Apparently.

[Stark]

In the far future there will be no affirmative action in elite augment soldier units?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well they may, actually, have some form of AA.

The Salamanders, for example, is basically the Astartes Colored Division. So is the Thousand Sons, or were, if the Horus Heresy artbook is canon at all.

Which gives a whole new meaning to the term "battle brother".

[Ford Prefect]

18, the Space Marines recruits their members from different planets. The Black Templars don't have a single world they pick from, they grab their neophytes from where-the-fuck ever. They would all have different skin tones depending on where they came from or were stationed.

[18-Till-I-Die]

No, the Salamanders pick from a specific planet. It's part of their backstory. They also serve as leaders of a sort on that planet, IIRC, and have a closer than normal relationship with the population.

[Adrian Laguna]

Never mind the fact that we're talking about a fictional force of sci-fantasy supersoldiers, and that they canonically have to be male (likely because canonically all twenty Primarchs were male), and GW has put in the Sisters of Battle for this sort of thing, and warriors in real life were and are mostly male, what does gender equality have to do with anything?

I'm talking about personal preference here, and consistency. The Imperium of Man has never been shown as being discriminatory against humans* on any basis. Thus it would stand to reason that if they could recruit females into the Space Marine's ranks, they would. The fluff has established that they can't, for biological reasons. That's all right, but if I had magic powers I might make it so that a portion of the Space Marine force would be female. And yes, they'd be just as muscular as the dudes.

*As defined by them

Apparently the already gender equal Imperium (while most characters are male, it is very clear that gender is no real obstacle to getting to the highest echelons of power), the one which regularly practices genocide, racism and hatred actually needs to be political correct.

You almost hit the nail on the head and then veered off at the last second. The Imperium is fairly gender equal, except when it comes to Space Marines. Would be nice if there were no "except", is all. It's no big deal that there is.

[Stark]

Well they may, actually, have some form of AA.

The Salamanders, for example, is basically the Astartes Colored Division. So is the Thousand Sons, or were, if the Horus Heresy artbook is canon at all.

Which gives a whole new meaning to the term "battle brother".

That's not affirmative action. That's 'we get guys from here'. Lowering standards to allow augmented women with lower capabilities to become marines would be affirmative action.

Can we all see the obstacle courses with little steps for the female space marines? Oh, the hilarity...

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ghetto edit: for that matter, so do most SM Chapters as far as i know. They mainly have specific planets they choose from. The Space Wolves get most if not all their people from Fenris, the Iron Hands i'm pretty sure get most or all their people from Medusa (different from Medusa VI or whatever it was called), the Black Templars are fairly unique in that they have no homeworld(s) to speak of.

The only other ones that come to mind like that are the Smurfs, the Dark Angels, and the Imperial Fists. Maybe the Blood Ravens, i'm not sure about them to be honest.

All the rest have primary worlds they draw from. Their homeworlds or founding planets mostly. For example the Raven Guard draw mostly from their homeworld, IIRC. Which is a heavily mutated industrial world.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Man, my jokes suck. I always have to explain them.

I'm like Jimmy Kimmel, only i was born a man.


All this talk of gender equality ignores the fact that genders are not, by definition, perfectly equal. Men ARE typically stronger than women. Enhancing a women with the same technology as a man would only create women stronger than normal men, but still weaker on the whole than the men you also enhanced, so it would still be utterly moot. The situation would hardly be reversed at all.

And God forbid that some conflict arises when Space Marines start getting horny or something. They're hard enough to control when they're sterile and practically sexless.

[Ford Prefect]

You almost hit the nail on the head and then veered off at the last second. The Imperium is fairly gender equal, except when it comes to Space Marines. Would be nice if there were no "except", is all. It's no big deal that there is.

You're pretty much right with your last comment. The cries of gender inequality with regards to Space Marines should be met with a resounding 'who cares?' Zomg no female Space Marines is no big deal - there are no male soldiers in the Ecclesiarchy for example. One is an example of being genetically impossible, whereas on the other it is a matter of Imperial Law.

[Stark]

So how are they going to get horny? Oh wait, they're not.

And call me crazy, but that's exactly what the fluff says. The procedure for augmenting the candidates doesn't work on women, ie women can't meet the required standards. Thus, you'd need to lower standards to let women join or develop a different procedure for the sole reason of changing the chromosomal makeup of your rectangular brick-soldiers, to satisfy some bizarre need for 'gender equality' and 'bewbies'.

[Adrian Laguna]

All this talk of gender equality ignores the fact that genders are not, by definition, perfectly equal. Men ARE typically stronger than women. Enhancing a women with the same technology as a man would only create women stronger than normal men, but still weaker on the whole than the men you also enhanced, so it would still be utterly moot. The situation would hardly be reversed at all.

There's a reason I said that if it were possible to make female Marines, they'd only make-up a single-digit percentage of the force.

And God forbid that some conflict arises when Space Marines start getting horny or something. They're hard enough to control when they're sterile and practically sexless.

And call me crazy, but that's exactly what the fluff says. The procedure for augmenting the candidates doesn't work on women, ie women can't meet the required standards. Thus, you'd need to lower standards to let women join or develop a different procedure for the sole reason of changing the chromosomal makeup of your rectangular brick-soldiers, to satisfy some bizarre need for 'gender equality' and 'bewbies'.

I already made it clear that I understand the fluff states, indirectly, that women can't be made into Marines because female+geneseed=failure. My point is basically that if the Imperium could make female Marines they would, they can't, so they don't.