Shivans vs. Empire

[Alyrium Denryle]

1.) The SD in "The Empire Strikes Back" couldn't see the Millenium Falcon LATCHED ONTO it, not only that but the others in the battlegroup couldn't see it (with clear line of site) floating in it's junk, and they weren't too far away.

For one, they hid in a BLIND SPOT. Second, if your enemy is not looking for you, they will not find you. it is that simple

2.) In "A New Hope" sensors on a SD didn't seem to notice the escape pod containing droids which escaped from inside the vessel itself.

Who looks for droids? Are you going to search for droids? No. They scanned for lifeforms. It says nothing about the sensors, just the officers in charge of that gun

3.) The Empire has no FTL sensors.

Care to back that up bitch boy

4.) It's 3am and my own sensors aren't working properly, if I recall more I'll let you know.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You base your argument on a quote that says that vertical drops are hard to track. Have you ever thought that mybe that is meant for the weapons. I know that when I am trying to shoot something, tracking it horizontally is easier than tracking it vertically. The same principal would apply.

Also you made a statement that the empire would not be able to track the shivans, well quess what. the burden of proof is on you to support your claim.

In the New Jedi Order and ISD iirc was able to accuratly target a vong ship ACROSS A SOLAR SYSTEM!

I will not even begin to bring in the speed differences of the ships.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Come to think of it. I think I will bring in acceleration.

Shivan ships have a max velocity(not acceleration velocity, for some reason there is a finite limit to the speeds you can reach) Not anywhere near escape velocity.

A TIE fighter has an acceleration around 5000 gs orders of magnitude faster than your pathetic ships. HTLS would have no problem targeting your fighters. even on visual scanning, the most basic of SW sensors.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I've read the website, it said:

The Rebel base on Hoth and the Imperial fleet outside the system were able to detect and scan each other before Darth Vader was informed that the fleet had dropped out of hyperspace.

Your point? In "A New Hope" there is a referance to how much Empire FTL sensors suck, which I'll watch tomorrow and let you know (as I said). I have some evidence which equally dismisses the above which as I said I'll get back to you on.

And seeing as we're so fond of insanely large text...
Fucking prove that The Empire could track Shivan vessels.

Your entire argument is based off a burden of proof fallacy. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Empire CANT track shivan vessels. And considering that I have destroyed everything else you have, try to do that.

[Ghost Rider]

I'm sure he'll come up with some excuse that we're rabid fans who don't see the truth of the situation.

[Bob McDob]

This is what gives FreeSpace a bad name.

[Shinova]

This is what gives FreeSpace a bad name.

Indeed.


Oh, and to measure Freespace speeds, we take into account acceleration and disregard max velocity cause in space, there's no such thing as max velocity.

[Alyrium Denryle]

well in that case, their acceleration is still shit

[The Dark]

This is what gives FreeSpace a bad name.

Indeed.


Oh, and to measure Freespace speeds, we take into account acceleration and disregard max velocity cause in space, there's no such thing as max velocity.

Actually... Their maximum velocity should be limited by their radiation/particle shielding. Given that their maximum velocity is less than that of a space shuttle, we could aruge quite logically that the hulls of their ships can take less damage than the STS. Of course, it would be ridiculous to have ships that weak, but that's apparently how bad they are .

And as to the "ninjas on fire" comment, considering that MISSILES only have a speed of 5000 m/s, and ISDs have an acceleration of over at least 30,000 m/s, the ISD will simply outrun any missiles fire at it.

And Terran sensors aren't that hot anyway. A mere nebula can disable their sensors, something that wouldn't be a problem to a SW ship. Claiming that they have such great sensors shows a lack of understanding of the Freespace games.

BTW, do Shivan ships have mass? Good, then SW ships can detect them on gravitic sensors. Concession accepted, biotch.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Shivans were almost impossible to track with Terran sensors, I doubt Empire sensors (which fucking suck) would be able to see them at all.

"They went into a high-speed power-dive, perpendicular to the long axis of the Imperial vessel; vertical drops were hard to track."
- Return Of The Jedi: Chapter Nine

Can't shoot something you can't see.

Ah.. Being dishonest are we?

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/novels/rotj.html

Lando's squadron went in low-- rock-throwing low-- this prevented the Destroyer from using its bigger guns. It also made the fighters invisible until they were directly visualised.
"Increase power on the front deflector shields," Lando radioed his group. "We're going in."
...
They went into a high-speed power-dive, perpendicular to the long axis of the Imperial vessel-- vertical drops were hard to track. Fifty feet from the surface, they pulled out at ninety degrees, and raced aklong the gunmetal hull, taking laser fire from every port.
"Starting attack run on the main power tree," Lando advised.
...
"Stay clear of their front batteries,+ warned Blue Leader. "It's a heavy fire zone down there."
"She's hurt bad on the left of the tower," Wedge noted. "Concentrate on that side."
...
Green Wing was hit. "I'm losing power!"
"Get clear, you're going to blow!"
Green Wing took it down like riding a rocket, into the Destroyer's front batteries. Tremendous explosions rumbled the port bow.

I invite anyone to look at the link and compare for themselves. The page number is 191-193 from SAxton's site. Its the same in the book copy I have.

Several details:

1.) it talks about going in LOW to hamper tracking by guns and to fly under the sensors (to make them invisible) - this simply tells us that below 50 feet (~15 meters) on the underside of a Star destroyer (or rather, the communications ship) that the sensor arrays are not placed to track anything that close. Hardly a problem for a functioning warship, when one must account for actually getting close to begin with.

Even if most other sensors are obscured, they can be visually tracked at that range.

2.) "Hard to track" is not the same thing as impossible. Nor are Freespace fighters Rebel fighters (in terms of capabilities). Naturally in this instance, it doesnt tell us what is going to have problems tracking the fighters.

3.) Regardless of their close proximity, they're still being heavily fired upon by at least laser cannons - so they can clearly still be TRACKED and TARGETED. In fact, one fighter at least is hit.

So should a group of Shivan fighters somehow get past a Destroyer's defenses to within 15 meters of the Destroyer's hull, then yes, the sensors will have trouble tracking them (although it won't be impossible.) Of course, the obvious countermeasure Is to extend teh shields 16+ meters away from the ship. Any fighter attempting to slip under will crash into the sh ields and be destroyed.

[Connor MacLeod]

1.) The SD in "The Empire Strikes Back" couldn't see the Millenium Falcon LATCHED ONTO it, not only that but the others in the battlegroup couldn't see it (with clear line of site) floating in it's junk, and they weren't too far away.

God, this argument is as old and typical as the "Asteriods destroyed the Bridge tower" stuff.

1.) The Falcon's systems were shut down (this is made clear on page 137 of the novelization for TESB, as well as page 45 of Galaxy Guide 3 - a WEG supplement pertaining to TESB.) With systems shut down, the ship is not emitting anything to detect. And what little there is would be drowned out by the STar Destroyer's own emissions.

2.) They didn't know they were there, nor did anyone think to look - there was no reason to consider it - its so crazy. Not expecting it, they wouldn't bother using active sensing on their own ships - not that its likely they'd be able to separate the Falcon from the rest of the Destroyer.

3.) There were no destroyers positioned to scan the back of the tower. Check TESB if you dont believe me.

4.) According to the novel "Ambush at Corellia" - engine emissions not only interfere with sensors while active (render them useless it would seem), but also with visual scanning (probably due to the glare of the engine thrust.) And they are quite close to the engines.

2.) In "A New Hope" sensors on a SD didn't seem to notice the escape pod containing droids which escaped from inside the vessel itself.

They didn't detect lifeforms, and you try to isolate teh emissions signatures and metallic bodies of two droids from inside another giant, more actively emitting, hunk of metal.

3.) The Empire has no FTL sensors.

Whats your basis for this? There is no explicit statement that the Empire has none in the canon movies, books, or whatnot. And according to the EU, they do (The RPG's mention hyperspace sensors, the games and the TIE Fighter pocket manual by David WEst Reynolds mentions "phased tachyon" sensors - and both Han Solo and the Lost Legacy AND the NJO novel Star By Star mention subspace sensors. Further, we KNOW they have FTL communication - sensor tech is not that large a leap (radar or lidar are used for communications purposes as well as detection.)

Unless you can furnish a direct, canon-level quote stating they HAVE no FTL sensors, you're bullshitting.

4.) It's 3am and my own sensors aren't working properly, if I recall more I'll let you know.

As if you've demonstrated your knowledge and memory are reliable.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, you made the first argument saying the Empire can't detect Shivans. Now you're putting that burden of proof onto Spanky and Stormbringer.

Actually when I said that the Empire wouldn't detect Shivan vessels I used evidence from Freespace itself based on Terran sensor technology against their inferior Empire counterparts (the whole "not being able to detect vertically moving ships speaks for itself.)

And you're assuming Imperial sensors are equal to Freespace Terran sensors. I assume you have some concrete proof to substantiate that comparison.

[Connor MacLeod]

Your point? In "A New Hope" there is a referance to how much Empire FTL sensors suck, which I'll watch tomorrow and let you know (as I said). I have some evidence which equally dismisses the above which as I said I'll get back to you on.

We're still waiting for that evidence, Bitchfist. Gonna keep delaying?

And seeing as we're so fond of insanely large text...
Fucking prove that The Empire could track Shivan vessels.

Star by Star and Han Solo and the Lost Legacy both prove that subspace sensors exist in the SW universe. Suck it up, bitch.

[Connor MacLeod]

Lets Review:

1.) Embracer made a claim that Shivan sensors > Empire sensors baserd on the logic that Terran Sensors < Shivan sensors. Yet he has not proven that Empire sensors = Terran Sensors.

2.) he's relied on narrow interpretations of specific quotes quite COMMONLY used by anti-Wars fanatics who try to make the exact same claim he has. Each has been soundly rebutted and contradicted with evidence to the contrary. Yet he insists that we disprove him.

3.) he's relied on misdirection, fallacies, and red herring delaying tactics to substantiate his point and divert attention away from the weaknesses in his claims.


Yep, its quite clear he's winning.

[The Dark]

Anyone have a reference to SW ships acting in a nebula? If their sensors worked, we can prove SW sensors > Terran sensors.

[Connor MacLeod]

Anyone have a reference to SW ships acting in a nebula? If their sensors worked, we can prove SW sensors > Terran sensors.

At least one reference. I believe that the Falcon's sensors operated in the Black Bantha Nebula in Star by Star (it was the same source where the "subspace sensors" are drawn from.

I'll try double checking and get back to it

[Sektor31]

Come to think of it. I think I will bring in acceleration.

Shivan ships have a max velocity(not acceleration velocity, for some reason there is a finite limit to the speeds you can reach) Not anywhere near escape velocity.

A TIE fighter has an acceleration around 5000 gs orders of magnitude faster than your pathetic ships. HTLS would have no problem targeting your fighters. even on visual scanning, the most basic of SW sensors.

The max velocity was for gaming purposes, to make the game more fair. The actual Shivan speed is far better than seen.

[Stormbringer]

Anyone have a reference to SW ships acting in a nebula? If their sensors worked, we can prove SW sensors > Terran sensors.

At least one reference. I believe that the Falcon's sensors operated in the Black Bantha Nebula in Star by Star (it was the same source where the "subspace sensors" are drawn from.

I'll try double checking and get back to it

If the Falcon's sensor's can operate near a neutron star and in The Maw a little nebula will be no bother at all.

[DocMoriartty]

No wonder so many people avoid this site like th plague. With assholes like you posting 24-7 its amazing anyone comes here.

There's more "research" than just watching the fucking films and reading the novels, you stupid cunt.

[DocMoriartty]

Your entire argument is based off a burden of proof fallacy. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Empire CANT track shivan vessels. And considering that I have destroyed everything else you have, try to do that.

I hate to tear you away from your monkey spanking session but your the one wrong here.

It is impossible to prove a negative. Completely and utterly impossible. Anyone with even the most minute skill in debating will tell you that.

Look at this simple item as an example.

"Prove to me you don't beat your wife."

It is impossible. Can't be done. You can say no bruises. I will say bruises heal. It goes on forever and ever. You cannot win the proving a negative arguement.

Now look at the other side.

"Prove to me that he beats his wife."

Easy I saw you hit her. Boom, instant proof arguement over.

Now I am not saying he is right. He has given some items that support his statement in a small way but he has backed them up very poorly and his description of the Shivans ability is one minor unsupported statement he made.

[Smiling Bandit]

I hate to tear you away from your monkey spanking session but your the one wrong here.

In practice, one could prove that group Y cannot do action X successfully. While not a perfect from a deductive standpoint, if you have reasonable evidence that Y has been trying to the best of its ability to accomplish X, and fails, it is not inductively illogical to assume that Y cannot succeed when trying action X. The questions presented is fair, if slightly inaccurate due to the imposition of language.

In this case, we have demonstrated abilities that the Empire can and has detected small craft at long ranges - ranges exceeding by far the size of a solar system. Since Shivan vessels do not differ in composition wildly from Imperial/SW vessels, we can logically conclude they could be detected. Imperial Star Destroyer sensor technology seems to be less effective at super-close range, and this is logically not a problem since its primary function is as a heavy capital ship rather than a fighter-killer. If someone can provide good evidence that Imperial sensor technology is blind or has some specific flaw related to Shivan jamming technology, one could reasonably conlude the Shivans have a sensor advantage.

While some of my fellows here are less than polite, they were baited and insulted by a trollish poster with a chip on his shoulder.

Finally, I have played Freespace II. The Shivans [and terrans too in some ways] are arguably the least threatening space fleet I have ever seen since the Kilrathi.

1) They have "maximum velocity" in space.

2) They have very... stupid tacticas and strtategy, with no clear goals other than to kill.

3) Their capital ships are less than impressive compared to Imperial vessels. Their largest heavy ships actually are bigger than a Star Destroyer, but wastes most of the space in comparison. A full volley rom a Star Destroyer easily equals a full fleet of Shivan heavy capital ships. Moreover they seem to need to be at ludicrously close ranges to fire effectively (within a few km), although this may be due to heavy jamming.

4) I personally slew over two thousand enemy fighters, not to mention the capital ships I helped take out. My character, on average, died once for every 250 enemy. That is *not* an acceptable kill ratio. Moreover the speeds and firepower of the craft I was using do not compare to the Imperial TIE. And in flight combat, speed and firepower are almost everything.

Also, fighter are far more effective against Shivan capital ships, barring a lucky shot such as the A-Wing that, against all odds, took out the Executor. (I've always wondered if the Force didn't give a wee little bit of help there.)

[Embracer Of Darkness]

While some of my fellows here are less than polite, they were baited and insulted by a trollish poster with a chip on his shoulder.

Finally someone with a brain, my plan has surfaced a whole *twelve hours* after being implimented... Getting up "rabid Warsie's" asses proves to be very entertaining for me when facing boredom .

As for my points, you think I didn't *know* most of them were idiotic? Come on I had one of you scrolling through the novelisation of Return Of The Jedi for fuck's sake *sigh*

Buy a clue, bored people can piss you off.

This time though, and seriously, I'm saying that I think the Shivans stand a decent chance against The Empire but I'd have to actually play the campains again and run some calcs.

[Shinova]

While some of my fellows here are less than polite, they were baited and insulted by a trollish poster with a chip on his shoulder.

Finally someone with a brain, my plan has surfaced a whole *twelve hours* after being implimented... Getting up "rabid Warsie's" asses proves to be very entertaining for me when facing boredom .

As for my points, you think I didn't *know* most of them were idiotic? Come on I had one of you scrolling through the novelisation of Return Of The Jedi for fuck's sake *sigh*

Buy a clue, bored people can piss you off.

This time though, and seriously, I'm saying that I think the Shivans stand a decent chance against The Empire but I'd have to actually play the campains again and run some calcs.

Those calcs have already been done many, MANY times. And they still can't compare to ISD weapons.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

I've personally not seen any calcs for Shivan weapons, sensors or shields (and no I am not baiting) and I would be very interested in that kind of reading material if anyone has it to hand...

Thanks.

[DocMoriartty]

Moreover the speeds and firepower of the craft I was using do not compare to the Imperial TIE. And in flight combat, speed and firepower are almost everything.

I would have to disagree with this one. Weapon range and C3 support are far more important.

A F-4 modified to fire Amraams with Awacs support will win 99 times out of 100 against the most advanced S-35 Flanker varient in the world no matter who the pilots are.

This even plays out in most flight sim (or space sim) games as well. Load up on the super long range missles every game eventually gives you and see what happens. Most of the times it means you get a bunch of kills with those missles then you are forced to move into close combat where each following kill is MUCH more difficult.