TSCC Canceled

[Thanas]

Yeah, Riley turned out to be a good character and a great plot point - but only in retrospect. It was worth it IMO, but I can fully understand people like my brother who tuned out because he didn't want to be annoyed by her anymore.

[Crazedwraith]

What bothers me more than Riley, is her season 1 equivilent. We never ever got told what was up with that chick before they moved schools in Season 2 and we never saw her again.

[Faqa]

What bothers me more than Riley, is her season 1 equivilent. We never ever got told what was up with that chick before they moved schools in Season 2 and we never saw her again.

A LOT of plotting was sloppy in Season 1. Basically, anything that wasn't related to the main plot was sloppy. I find that odd, given how careful the writers were in Season 2.

[Thanas]

What bothers me more than Riley, is her season 1 equivilent. We never ever got told what was up with that chick before they moved schools in Season 2 and we never saw her again.

A LOT of plotting was sloppy in Season 1. Basically, anything that wasn't related to the main plot was sloppy. I find that odd, given how careful the writers were in Season 2.

The writers strike screwed it up. Remember that a lot of Season 1 was cut short due to it, leaving them with stories that were never really edited or thought through. The writers strike really killed all development on those storylines, which was why they were all scrapped at the start of Season 2.

[Shroom Man 777]

I didn't actively dislike Riley and I consider her last few episodes to be rather well acted, when we realized that there was something to her other than well-meaning weird girl out of nowhere. Poor girl. She was a true innocent casualty.

Thanas, you're in contact with some of the TSCC dudes, right? Could we get like cues and insider stuff on some of the plot-threads that were not resolved? Now that TSCC is dead, may Skynet the AI God rest its soul, maybe some things like Riley v.1 from Season 1 can get declassified?

A spur of the moment idea is that part of the reason why her parents are uptight and that she gets fetched from school all hush-hushed like is because her family or something is somehow linked to Skynet - like the secretive corporate citizens of that planned community in Season 2.

[Faqa]

when we realized that there was something to her other than well-meaning weird girl out of nowhere.

And, since I'm curious - why is that boring, in and of itself? I personally think Riley had a sort of Luna Lovegood charm in her first few episodes.

She was a true innocent casualty.

Let's be fair here, yes? She had a choice every step of the way, and certainly put a LOT of effort into manipulating John(I find it difficult to believe, for example, that girl raised in a post-apocalyptic world wouldn't know how to properly slit her wrists). By the time she died, it WAS as a result of attacking Jesse and trying to kill her.

This doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for her or that Jesse wasn't a heartless bitch, but she was hardly innocent.

The writers strike really killed all development on those storylines

A shame. I wanted to see Cameron go to the prom.

Seriously, keeping John and Cameron in a high school setting may have ultimately been better for the show - it sets up that there's a 'life' for this odd little family unit, outside of following the Skynet trail. I missed that, in retrospect.

[Peptuck]

Please, no more vacant-eyed-weird-girl roles for Miss Glau, she's typecasted enough as it is, she really needs a chance to prove her acting abilities.

Most of her other acting jobs have actually been as relatively normal people.

I've seen her work on CSI and a little bit of her work on The Unit, and both were relatively "normal" characters that she played very well. I haven't seen her work elsewhere, like in The 4400 or the episode of Cold Case she was in, nor either of the movies she did outside of Serenity, but from what I've read she doesn't need to "prove" her acting abilities, as she's done a decent range of roles, just in obscure films and shows.

[PREDATOR490]

PREDATOR, if you didn't like TSCC that much then why do you always, without fail, end up in every TSCC review thread ever?

Face it, you wuv Robot Rivers! ^___________^

Sadly no.

Weaver > Robot River

Thus my utter annoyance at having no resolution to what Weaver is gonna do in the future or the potential for a Weaver + John Connor alliance.

Seriously, keeping John and Cameron in a high school setting may have ultimately been better for the show - it sets up that there's a 'life' for this odd little family unit, outside of following the Skynet trail. I missed that, in retrospect.

That just screams 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' to me and I would not be suprised if this is what Fox first thought this series was going to be like. If they wanted to make TSCC into comedy / Teenage drivel shit with Connor fawning over some girl like Buffy did over Angel then sure but I dont see that meshing with having gunfights in the corridors with Killer Cyborgs.

[Faqa]

That just screams 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' to me and I would not be suprised if this is what Fox first thought this series was going to be like. If they wanted to make TSCC into comedy / Teenage drivel shit with Connor fawning over some girl like Buffy did over Angel then sure but I dont see that meshing with having gunfights in the corridors with Killer Cyborgs.

It could certainly be that, if handled badly.

But it gave... structure to the show. It made John a teenage boy, more of a real person, instead of a badass future leader following the plot threads. Giving him the opportunity for this was kind of the premise for the series

Mind you, I'm not saying it was TERRIBLE to not have it, just that it would've been nice.

Why wouldn't it mesh with "gunfights in the corridors with killer cyborgs"? In Buffy, so long as you're bringing it up, it managed to mesh with swordfights and crossbows.

[PREDATOR490]

Gunfights in school corridors in L.A tend to draw attention I would hope and there is the messy cleanup required afteward with the blood, bodies and endoskeletons.
It works in Buffy due to the 'magical' nature of the world she lives in and the obvious half-serious nature of the series. TSCC has the whole grimdark theme going like Buffy did towards the later seasons and I dont see T's busting out in song for a musical episode a.k.a Once More With Feeling.

Being a stupid airhead like Buffy is nothing compared to having John Connor sitting in class with a straight face knowing that at a T could kick the door in and systematically slaughter the school just to get at him A.K.A T1 Police Station. Watching Cameron getting completely pussified into being more human like a cheap rip off of Data would be horrible IMO.

[Thanas]

If they had continued with any school stories, I am positive that they would have been handled in a proper manner.

However, a huge part of the show involved John growing up - and leaving school was a major step in that direction.

[Faqa]

Gunfights in school corridors in L.A tend to draw attention I would hope and there is the messy cleanup required afteward with the blood, bodies and endoskeletons.

All managable. Of course, if every Termie-of-the-week is after him, then repeated disposal would get ridiculous.

If it's just Cromartie, he can be easily written to get less of a break in finding John and therefore only one disposal would be needed at some point.

Being a stupid airhead like Buffy is nothing compared to having John Connor sitting in class with a straight face knowing that at a T could kick the door in and systematically slaughter the school just to get at him A.K.A T1 Police Station.

He might've been, true. It's a fact of the life he lives that this could happen at any time.

And he was determined to not let this stop him from living. That's why he took up with Riley, that's why he also stayed in school at the beginning of the season. We may call it stupid, but it's one of the things he felt he needed, John Connor or no.

I can't recall WHY he dropped out. Does anyone remember?

Watching Cameron getting completely pussified into being more human like a cheap rip off of Data would be horrible IMO.

Why would this neccesarily follow? We've already seen that Cameron could interact extensively with humans without giving a shit about them. I doubt the writing would be so clumsy.

However, a huge part of the show involved John growing up - and leaving school was a major step in that direction.

I always thought that leaving school wasn't a sign of growing up per se, but more that he accepted that probably they wouldn't be able to stop Skynet and that he had no chance of ever having a normal life. Learning to accept his fate and assume his role was what I assume his growing up was.

[Thanas]

I can't recall WHY he dropped out. Does anyone remember?

Because he told his mother he had to focus on other things (Riley, Cam malfunctioning etc being implied there).

Watching Cameron getting completely pussified into being more human like a cheap rip off of Data would be horrible IMO.

Why would this neccesarily follow? We've already seen that Cameron could interact extensively with humans without giving a shit about them. I doubt the writing would be so clumsy.

Completely agreed here. In fact, having her interact with humans was a highlight in every episode.

However, a huge part of the show involved John growing up - and leaving school was a major step in that direction.

I always thought that leaving school wasn't a sign of growing up per se, but more that he accepted that probably they wouldn't be able to stop Skynet and that he had no chance of ever having a normal life. Learning to accept his fate and assume his role was what I assume his growing up was.

That's an interesting viewpoint, but I am not so sure that was the focus point. I also cannot imagine the John from Today is the day attending high school and all that vapid nonsense of american teenage high school life.

[Faqa]

I also cannot imagine the John from Today is the day attending high school and all that vapid nonsense of american teenage high school life.

Well, no, because he dropped out and left, didn't he?

I'm not saying he would give a shit about the football team. But a framework in which he could pretend to be normal, that prepared him for a normal life would be interesting to watch. As I said, it would show the Connor family just... living, instead of always chasing Skynet.

[Thanas]

I also cannot imagine the John from Today is the day attending high school and all that vapid nonsense of american teenage high school life.

Well, no, because he dropped out and left, didn't he?

I'm not saying he would give a shit about the football team. But a framework in which he could pretend to be normal, that prepared him for a normal life would be interesting to watch. As I said, it would show the Connor family just... living, instead of always chasing Skynet.

Didn't it do that in a way? I am thinking of Cameron and the bird/library arc, with the whole deal with the neighbour, Riley etc...

[Shroom Man 777]

when we realized that there was something to her other than well-meaning weird girl out of nowhere.

And, since I'm curious - why is that boring, in and of itself? I personally think Riley had a sort of Luna Lovegood charm in her first few episodes.

Did I say it was borings mang? But still, having her play no part at all to the overall story while playing such a big part in John's life, I don't know. She wasn't bad or anything. Still, I found Pregnant Chick's presence more enjoyable.

She was a true innocent casualty.

Let's be fair here, yes? She had a choice every step of the way, and certainly put a LOT of effort into manipulating John(I find it difficult to believe, for example, that girl raised in a post-apocalyptic world wouldn't know how to properly slit her wrists). By the time she died, it WAS as a result of attacking Jesse and trying to kill her.

This doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for her or that Jesse wasn't a heartless bitch, but she was hardly innocent.

Fine, replace "innocent casualty" with "tragic character".

Goddamn motherfucking...

[NecronLord]

I didn't actively dislike Riley and I consider her last few episodes to be rather well acted,

You know, given how much I've seen you rant "That bitch Riley" and "FAT FAT FAT RILEY" - I'd hate to see what you'd say if you did actively dislike her.

[Shroom Man 777]

There'd be copious usage of the word "WHORE".

I just went on about her being a bitch and being FAT FAT FAT because of how she was stealing John away from Robot River. But in a non-Robot River context, she wasn't bad. Just kind of odd and weird and rather really nosey (do normal kids invite folks to their home right after meeting them out of the blue at school). But yes, she was an odd character (until we got an explanation for what's what). I didn't know what to make of her. She was just there, saying things with her valley girl accent. Until they gave her depth, she was pretty meh.

I guess I dislike her in the same way as PREDATOR dislikes TSCC. He dislikes TSCC but watches it as religiously as either Thanas or I, though how THAT makes sense I don't know.

EDIT:

Maybe Riley would've also gone over well if they gave her depth WITHOUT making her a FAT FAT FAT from the future. Instead of making her part of Jesse's bitch plan, she could've been just a normal present-day person. But an orphan or something, with difficulties.

A troubled teen living a "normal" troubled teen life. That would've been an excellent counterpoint to John's troubled teen living a very abnormal troubled teen life.

Yeah, even without the Jesse plot, her character would've still been rather workable. Now that I think about it (which I rarely do!).

[Faqa]

Didn't it do that in a way? I am thinking of Cameron and the bird/library arc, with the whole deal with the neighbour, Riley etc...

Well, Riley tied back into the main plot, don't forget. As for the neighbor, she was a nice aspect but underused.

Cameron, yes, she got some well-defined character episodes.

The show did not ignore the family aspect, but I feel it got short shrift the more the series went along.

Just kind of odd and weird and rather really nosey (do normal kids invite folks to their home right after meeting them out of the blue at school). But yes, she was an odd character (until we got an explanation for what's what).

Again, I point out that that's what fascinated me about her - among other things, her nonchalant acceptance of the weirder aspects of John's life. And among the explanations they COULD have given for this, I feel they chose a less interesting one.

(Not to say that the writing was BAD of course, it's just that the choices it made could have been better)

I just went on about her being a bitch and being FAT FAT FAT because of how she was stealing John away from Robot River.

Oi vey. I was GOING to put this in the list of reasons why people don't like Riley, but I thought it would come off as a smarmy condescending assumption.

Suffice to say that I feel that the romanticization of Cameron is something I feel is far more interesting when John does it, to give us insight into how he thinks. And how it gets crushed, eventually.

I think that's one of the defining events of Season 2, really - forcing John to face the fact that the 'female' he's closest to is a machine, who can be reprogrammed at will. As demonstrated in rather dramatic fashion in the first and last episodes of the season(Cameron going rogue in the first, and John having to 'fix' her in the last, thus reinforcing the whole "It's a MACHINE" thing).

They may be sentient beings, but they ain't human.

Maybe Riley would've also gone over well if they gave her depth WITHOUT making her a FAT FAT FAT from the future. Instead of making her part of Jesse's bitch plan, she could've been just a normal present-day person. But an orphan or something, with difficulties.

A troubled teen living a "normal" troubled teen life. That would've been an excellent counterpoint to John's troubled teen living a very abnormal troubled teen life.

Yeah, even without the Jesse plot, her character would've still been rather workable. Now that I think about it (which I rarely do!).

Well, you'd have to deal with the fact that she WASN'T normal - she walked up to the creepy glaring kid in the corner and befriended him, for a start. That's part of the point of her.

But yeah, your idea could've also worked out very well. You should think more.

I think a greater challenge would've been to make the Jesse subplot more interesting. As it stood, it had some good scenes, but it just stagnated for most of the season. I think it was mainly intended to advance Derek's character, which it did, but could've been more.... I dunno, poignant. Perhaps it's the fact that the actress was smokin' hot but not terribly compelling.

[Thanas]

Well, Riley tied back into the main plot, don't forget. As for the neighbor, she was a nice aspect but underused.

Cameron, yes, she got some well-defined character episodes.

The show did not ignore the family aspect, but I feel it got short shrift the more the series went along.

In a sense, most of the (rather boring) Sarah stand-alone episodes were about family development as well. And I think it is necessary to give the family aspect less time when you come up to the end of the season (and now the series, sadly).

Again, I point out that that's what fascinated me about her - among other things, her nonchalant acceptance of the weirder aspects of John's life. And among the explanations they COULD have given for this, I feel they chose a less interesting one.

(Not to say that the writing was BAD of course, it's just that the choices it made could have been better)

I am curious - what choices? Because IMO you have no other way to do it without ditching the jessie plot.

Suffice to say that I feel that the romanticization of Cameron is something I feel is far more interesting when John does it, to give us insight into how he thinks. And how it gets crushed, eventually.

Or not...

I think that's one of the defining events of Season 2, really - forcing John to face the fact that the 'female' he's closest to is a machine, who can be reprogrammed at will. As demonstrated in rather dramatic fashion in the first and last episodes of the season(Cameron going rogue in the first, and John having to 'fix' her in the last, thus reinforcing the whole "It's a MACHINE" thing).

They may be sentient beings, but they ain't human.

Oh, definitely. But that is also a main plot point with regards to the other stories - without Connor getting so close to machines in general and Cameron especially, you wouldn't have the Jessie subplot etc.

I think a greater challenge would've been to make the Jesse subplot more interesting. As it stood, it had some good scenes, but it just stagnated for most of the season. I think it was mainly intended to advance Derek's character, which it did, but could've been more.... I dunno, poignant. Perhaps it's the fact that the actress was smokin' hot but not terribly compelling.

Yeah, Stephanie Jacobsen...I don't know what to think of her. I've only seen her on BSG and Farscape, but she seems to stick to one role and then uses the same body language and moves to portray her.

[PREDATOR490]

Meh, saw the Riley reveal coming. The amount of attention that got directed to her and the weirdness factor telegraphed the fact she was going to be a plot point. That she sticks around John so much and kept an obvious distance from Cameron gave away she was from the future or had a knowledge of it so I wasnt very suprised and Jesse pressuring her into doing it was equally unoriginal. The revenge point on Jesse's part was again, predictable.

I liked Season One but Season two is where I dislike TSCC. S2 just takes a nosedive into a whole world of convoluted conspiracy type nonsense between everyone. Noone seems to actually give a straight answer to what the hell is going on and the episodes progress in a way to keep the viewer guessing about whats going on. Thus the season develops in a dramatic fashion rather than one that is logical which quickly makes things tiresome IMO.

[Thanas]

The above post makes no sense to me, especially the dramatic/logical duality.

And as for season 1 not keeping the viewer guessing. Dungeons and Dragons anyone?

Heck, that one episode kept me guessing more than the first half of S2 in its entirety.

[Faqa]

In a sense, most of the (rather boring) Sarah stand-alone episodes were about family development as well

Not really. They were mostly about Sarah. The only one that reflected on the family was the dream clinic episodes, which was mainly HER view of John and Cameron.

And I think it is necessary to give the family aspect less time when you come up to the end of the season (and now the series, sadly).

I suppose I can agree with that.

I am curious - what choices? Because IMO you have no other way to do it without ditching the jessie plot.

Tying Riley into her plot was a choice, for example. She could have been the puzzled outsider, providing companionship to John. Actually showing him who they're trying to save.

And Jesse could just as easily have REALLY been an AWOL who then tried to use Derek to get to Cameron or something of the sort.

There's plenty of ways to manage that, particularly with the talented team of writers the show had.

Or not...

He got two graphic reminders that SHE is an IT, a robot with a pre-programmed mission. I'd call that crushing.

Yeah, Stephanie Jacobsen...I don't know what to think of her. I've only seen her on BSG and Farscape, but she seems to stick to one role and then uses the same body language and moves to portray her.

She was on BSG? As what?

Oh, definitely. But that is also a main plot point with regards to the other stories - without Connor getting so close to machines in general and Cameron especially, you wouldn't have the Jessie subplot etc.

I had no problem with the basic idea of Jesse's mission. It made sense that there would be a faction that thought that way.

Just the way it was executed. Or, for many episodes, NOT executed. How many episodes did we see her just sleep with Derek or appear for two minutes?

[Thanas]

Tying Riley into her plot was a choice, for example. She could have been the puzzled outsider, providing companionship to John. Actually showing him who they're trying to save.

And Jesse could just as easily have REALLY been an AWOL who then tried to use Derek to get to Cameron or something of the sort.

There's plenty of ways to manage that, particularly with the talented team of writers the show had.

But the role of companion was already filled by both Derek, Cameron and Charlie. We do not need another "outsider finds out about robots, is shocked" storyline, as we already had those with no less than three persons (charlie, Ellison and to a degree, John himself).

He got two graphic reminders that SHE is an IT, a robot with a pre-programmed mission. I'd call that crushing.

Meh. Neither really managed to break the bond between them. In fact, right in the S2 finale, he once again gambles everything just to get her back.
In fact, I believe the only thing that would have stopped acting that way would have been her putting a bullet into his mother.

She was on BSG? As what?

Major Kendra Shaw, XO, Pegasus. BSG Special "Razor".

Just the way it was executed. Or, for many episodes, NOT executed. How many episodes did we see her just sleep with Derek or appear for two minutes?

Yeah, but it also gave us the great Fisher ep.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's not that crushing, actually. Cameron overrode her termination orders for John in Samson and Delilah, and we can see that she's more than just an emotionless machine.