The Principality of Zeon in Enterprise era Trekverse

[Commander 598]

3) Humans have already been emigrating to space for decades, so propaganda about "accelerate the evolution of the human race into Newtypes" will collapse due to lack of evidence.

When Zeon talks about emigrating to space, they mean the void not another planet which if I'm not mistaken is something like 99% of the colonization in ST and most soft SF. By most SF standards, "Zeonic Idealogy" is essentially a "spacer" religion and "spacers" usually live in dank, rusty, terrible excuses of for space stations or like space gypsies on traveling ships with constant Earth gravity on both, the Zeeks are a bit different. Also, Zeon would/does have evidence and with Gihren for a mouthpiece they could manage quite well in this department.

[Darksider]

I don't give a shit how charismatic Zeon's "mouthpiece" is. When a massive group of space colonies suddenly appears on the other side of the moon and starts spewing psudo-religious bullshit that flys in the face of evolutionary theory, people on the UE aren't going to buy it.

And once the UE spots Zeon's massive military capabilities, they'll be more reluctant to negotiate with them.

[Jade Owl]

3) Humans have already been emigrating to space for decades, so propaganda about "accelerate the evolution of the human race into Newtypes" will collapse due to lack of evidence.

I wasn't aware that the Zeons had an "accelerated evolution" type ideology. This is going to be a huge No-No for the people of Earth in this scenario. Star Trek humans are hugely prejudiced against anything that even sounds like eugenics. Even if Zeon’s ideology doesn’t involve actual genetic engineering, it’s still going to sound way to close to Augment ideology for them to be comfortable with it.

[Sidewinder]

By most SF standards, "Zeonic Idealogy" is essentially a "spacer" religion and "spacers" usually live in dank, rusty, terrible excuses of for space stations or like space gypsies on traveling ships with constant Earth gravity on both, the Zeeks are a bit different.

This is precisely why Zeon ideology will fail. In ST, human colonists do not have to live in "dank, rusty, terrible excuses for space stations," they can move to other planets w/ environments comparable to Earth, or terraform planets to make their environments comparable to Earth. Char's "Spacenoids are the next step in human evolution!" line will sound like "Forcing yourself to live in the spaceborne equivalent of a ghetto, when you have the option living comfortably on a planetary surface, will make you a better person!" which has minimal appeal to the average person.

People may say, "Facing adversity will make you a better person," but how many of them will voluntarily deprive themselves of modern comforts & conveniences for the sake of self-improvement? Will you enlist in a military, exchanging the comfort of your home for life in cramped barracks that are barely fit for farm animals, depriving yourself the convenience of a personally owned vehicle- new US Army enlistees are not allowed to operate one during basic & advanced individual training- for the sake of self-improvement?

[Swindle1984]

I don't give a shit how charismatic Zeon's "mouthpiece" is. When a massive group of space colonies suddenly appears on the other side of the moon and starts spewing psudo-religious bullshit that flys in the face of evolutionary theory, people on the UE aren't going to buy it.

Even when Zeon has Newtypes to prove it?

And once the UE spots Zeon's massive military capabilities, they'll be more reluctant to negotiate with them.

So they'd rather be standoffish and possibly offend people right in their own backyard who have a massive military complex than negotiate with them and NOT start a war?




All Zeon has to do is realize that the UE has a massive advantage in FTL travel/communications/sensors, lay low with the rhetoric while subtly planting little seeds of propaganda amongst Earth's population, and bide their time while trading for technology. Shit, considering how altruistic humans in Trek tend to be, Earth will probably help boost Zeon's technology solely for being fellow humans who live in the same system.

And Zeon can pass off its military as being for self-defense because they were fighting an oppressive regime in their native universe. And, naturally, they still have a right to defend themselves from aggressors, especially now that they're in a whole new universe they're unfamiliar with. I'm sure the people of the UE, having just been through the Xindi, can appreciate that.

Thus, Zeon can spend their time gathering intelligence and allies, upgrading their ships with warp drive and shields, and then conquer the Earth when the time is right.

[Commander 598]

This is precisely why Zeon ideology will fail. In ST, human colonists do not have to live in "dank, rusty, terrible excuses for space stations," they can move to other planets w/ environments comparable to Earth, or terraform planets to make their environments comparable to Earth.

Life in the colonies is much better than life on Earth. You'd have to be some kind of weirdo to prefer planetary living to the paradise that is Side 3.

Side 3 is actually a poor example given that it's the relatively overcrowded closed cylinders on the far side of the moon, but I'm pretty sure it's far from a ghetto. It might not be Frontier IV, but it's still probably pretty good for the most part.

[Sidewinder]

I don't give a shit how charismatic Zeon's "mouthpiece" is. When a massive group of space colonies suddenly appears on the other side of the moon and starts spewing psudo-religious bullshit that flys in the face of evolutionary theory, people on the UE aren't going to buy it.

Even when Zeon has Newtypes to prove it?

Zeon propaganda on "advancing human evolution" hinges on the fact that you're more exposed to radiation on a space colony than you are on a planetary surface, where you have the atmosphere- 120 kilometers thick in Earth's case- to shield you. Exposure to radiation may cause genetic mutations, such as cancer- making the "expose yourself to radiation & evolve into a Neotype" thing a game of Russian roulette.

And once the UE spots Zeon's massive military capabilities, they'll be more reluctant to negotiate with them.

So they'd rather be standoffish and possibly offend people right in their own backyard who have a massive military complex than negotiate with them and NOT start a war?

If a violent criminal begins committing crimes in your neighborhood- rape, robbery, carjacking, etc.- will you not think, "I need a weapon to defend myself," & buy a gun or two?

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

All Zeon has to do is realize that the UE has a massive advantage in FTL travel/communications/sensors, lay low with the rhetoric while subtly planting little seeds of propaganda amongst Earth's population, and bide their time while trading for technology.

Zeon will EPIC FAIL in planting these seeds, because Zeon propaganda has very little appeal to humans in the ST universe.

And Zeon can pass off its military as being for self-defense because they were fighting an oppressive regime in their native universe. And, naturally, they still have a right to defend themselves from aggressors, especially now that they're in a whole new universe they're unfamiliar with. I'm sure the people of the UE, having just been through the Xindi, can appreciate that.

What makes you think United Earth will not decide, "Yeah, having a self-defense force is a good idea," & expand its own military, instead of saying, "We need protection, but we don't want to expend resources to expand our own military. Can you Zeon guys provide protection?" making United Earth a Zeon protectorate?

Thus, Zeon can spend their time gathering intelligence and allies, upgrading their ships with warp drive and shields, and then conquer the Earth when the time is right.

What makes you think Zeon can catch up w/ Starfleet, which has operated warp-capable ships for decades, will likely continue to research warp technology, & continue to build warp-capable ships? What makes you think United Earth will not continue to send forth exploration, colonization, & diplomatic missions- i.e., scouting, expanding, & seeking allies- while Zeon is waiting for the right time?

[Sidewinder]

This is precisely why Zeon ideology will fail. In ST, human colonists do not have to live in "dank, rusty, terrible excuses for space stations," they can move to other planets w/ environments comparable to Earth, or terraform planets to make their environments comparable to Earth.

Life in the colonies is much better than life on Earth. You'd have to be some kind of weirdo to prefer planetary living to the paradise that is Side 3.

Please don't make the same mistake B & B made in "Terra Nova".

Anyway, nobody's heard from [the Terra Nova colony] in seventy years, and it turns out that early on the relations with Earth became strained. After a couple years, the space agency had wanted to send another two hundred colonists, but the colonists didn't want any more people coming. Maybe the new people weren't going to be white, I don't know. What I do know is that this is goddamn stupid. They don't want another two hundred people to land on the same planet? How much lebensraum do you people need? This is the same thing we saw in Star Trek: Insurrection, the creators don't seem to realize how big a planet is, which is stupid considering all of them have been confined to one planet their entire existence.

So we get back to the medical part of the plot, where Phlox does his usual job of explaining why there is now a Desperate Situation they'll need to solve. Turns out the water supply has been irradiated, which means everyone will die unless they relocate. So this requires trying to explain it to the old lady and the chief, but they respond with more of this stupid dialogue. "You humans tried to gut our go-befores when they lived on the overside. Now you're trying to gut us." I'm going to gut somebody if I have to listen to any more of this crap.

<snip>

Well, Archer breaks out some more photos, and turns out he's got a picture of the old lady as a little girl. This isn't good enough for the chief, though, so they've no choice but to bring them back. Archer takes T'Pol aside and asks what to do. She says that, since Tucker's improved the resolution of the tunnels, the transporter could be used to beam stun grenades into the tunnels, knock everyone out, and while they're unconscious, bring them on board. Archer gets pissed at this idea, that they need to convince them it's the right thing, but T'Pol argues that Archer's idea to bring them back to Earth would destroy their culture. Of course, the compromise is so f*cking obvious I can't believe no one has even suggested it yet: just move them to the southern hemisphere, where it's not radioactive. Again, people, it's a planet. Planets are big.

Finally this occurs to Archer, so they check out the maps, and yes, believe it or not, there's a whole lot of this planet that isn't radioactive that they can survive on.

If you live on a planet & you don't like your neighbors, you likely have plenty of places you can move to. You are unlikely to have so many options if you're confined to a tin can in space. And if life on a space colony is better than life on a planet, why does Zeon propaganda claim "We must free spacenoids from oppression under Earth's elites," instead of "We must free Earthers from oppression under spacenoid elites," or something like that?

[barricade]

Someone mentioned orbital bombardment w/o the use of colonies:

08th MS Team showed Zeon's capabilities when dealing with the Apsalus II (and later III) and found data showing the Apsalus II, and III, were designed to go into orbit and fire directly straight down into Jaburo and be able to perform a one-shot kill to the entire base. Going by the images from that data you can roughly put the Apsalus II, which was the unit seen in the data, at around 300 miles up, no higher. The main cannon on the Apsalus is considered to be equal to the one in the Aspalus III, which as seen when it fired on the Federation Big Tray land cruiser, it completely cored through 80% of a mountain. I cannot give scaling for the mountain itself but at a very low-ball guess at least 8,000-9,000 feet (was snowcapped, part of the Himalayans, although portrayed as rising directly out of the jungle oddly enough). In this definition of 'cored' I mean total vaporization/distintegration. A second full power shot if much more concentrated went through the slope of a much smaller mountain and the beam still had enough power left to hit the Big Tray destroy the top 1/3 of it. Now going back to mentioning Jaburo, the base itself is at least 3km square and buried under enough armor plate and natural mesa to (supposedly) withstand any attack by external threat up to and including nuclear weapons. Colony Drops however, not so much *sarcasm*. And again, the Apsalus II was designed to utterly destroy the base in one shot.

Apsalus III in use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXfpGE-S80

Another issue is that the Big Zam is mentioned to be the spaceborne version of the Apsalus, and is equally as powerful. Both projects were initially started prior to the war, but only finished prototyping in the final days/weeks of the war. They're not yet available, however the data & tech behind them is sound, practical, and understood.

One thing that might help Zeon, and frankly is their one advantage over UE other then sheer numbers, is the Minovsky particle's effects on electronics. It causes them to arc like being directly exposed to a constant EMP field and to keep electronics working requires extremely heavy shielding over very high-tech components, or a much lower level of computer tech that is more robust, if inefficient, with lesser amounts of shielding. How much is up for debate as it was never really stated. However we do again see in 08th MS Team when Shiro pulls out computer components in his cockpit to force a reboot, that the components are much larger then ones in use even today on a circuitboard. Again, up for debate on this.

Now this will likely not affect UE sensors due to being FTL and thus beyond the reach of a physical particle, but it would directly affect the hardware once a UE ship enters the region affected by Minovsky field saturation. If UE can hold an engagement open at range where it does not need to close with the Zeon fleet, and enter the area affected, ithe UE fleet will hold all the advantages, even with sublight sensors scrambled badly. If they are forced to close, and it should be noted that a Minovsky field projected by a Musai is equal to its max effective main cannon range & can be expanded drastically further with other ships projecting the field, then they concede the tactical advantage to the Zeon fleet. During the war, even in areas where no combat had occurred for days, there were still areas several thousand miles across that still were saturated enough to completely block radio signals for more then 10-100km. Post war due to the massive losses of ships on all sides, this was less of an issue as engagements between fleets were 20-30 ships at most in total on average (0083 is an exception, along with Haman's fleet from Axis) and thus much smaller fields produced which decayed/dispersed faster.

So its possible Zeon, as the OP has it with its overall fleet at its highest strength ever, could begin to produce a massive Minovsky field well before it begins to move its fleet(s) and hide behind it as they move towards Earth.

Generally though, I will agree that unless Starfleet drastically F's up, they will mow through Zeon ships left and right. The only real question is whether or not they'll be able to do so when the odds are almost 1:100 against them due to sheer numbers. On the ground however, albeit if Zeon can even get there intact that is, then UE is pretty much going to be in a world of pain

[Samuel]

The biggest turn off for colonies is that they are extremely easy to control- hold the life support systems and the populance has to dance to your tune. That and they blow up easily, something that the population of Earth is unlikely to embrace. After all, you had a Xindi ship jump into orbit and kill 4 million- who wants to live in a settlement where the alien of the week can do that in 12 seconds?

[Samuel]

I need to clarify. The Xindi proto-Weapon made a huge gash across the planet:



The gash it produces is pretty deep, but I can't find the screenshot

It is future tech, but I don't think the population of Earth knows or would be consoled by that.

I'm pretty sure this could split open a colony. Which would be bad. I haven't seen the show so I don't know size or strength... or any Gundam actually. Just reading about Zeon... holy shit are they evil.

[Sidewinder]

Please don't make the same mistake B & B made in "Terra Nova".

I'm not talking about size at all (though, even if I was, you'd have no case - the space population in MSG is several times that of the Earth population, and everyone we see live in spacious houses). The living conditions inside a habitat are simply better than on a planet. You don't have to deal with weather or pests. You get as much space as you want. You get whatever gravity you desire.

I think you're mistaken regarding the setting of Mobile Suit Gundam.

The Earth Federation was formed in the pre-Universal Century (i.e. the 20th Century), when overpopulation began causing famines, outbreaks of disease, and wars over living space, food, and resources.

Space colonization
In order to relieve Earth of the burden and allow it to heal, the Earth Federation announced the Space Colonization Plan. The Earth Federation began the construction of orbital habitats, based on the designs and research of Gerard K. O'Neill, and located in the Earth-Lunar Lagrangian Points. The colonies, called Bunches (possibly due to the ballistic pairing of the colony cylinders) were then organized into administrative sectors called Sides. While most of the human population was forced to relocate to the colonies as part of the Space Colonization Plan, the wealthy and influential members were able to remain on Earth. This gave rise to the popular image of the Earth Federation as "Earth-Born Elite", living comfortably on Earth while the ordinary populace, for the most part, has been forced to live in space.

Emphasis mine.

And if life on a space colony is better than life on a planet, why does Zeon propaganda claim "We must free spacenoids from oppression under Earth's elites," instead of "We must free Earthers from oppression under spacenoid elites," or something like that?

Why the fuck would they call themselves the oppressors in their own propaganda?

If life on a space colony is better than life on Earth, as you claim, why would the oppressors choose to live on Earth instead of the space colonies?

[Ford Prefect]

(I can't think of a single colony actually destroyed, except in drops, of course.)

There were a bunch (lol) destroyed at Loum. The target of Dozle's colonyjack operation was completely destroyed, for example. It is generally depicted as being really difficult, simply because of their huge size and mass.

Speaking of, does anyone recall the size of A Baoa Qu?

[Commander 598]

Zeon wasn't really all that evil, it was mostly just Gihren planning to be Hitler when he assumed the throne and planning to knock off family members...

As for the size of the colonies, roughly they're about 30-60km long and up to 10km wide O'Neill Island III Habitats. They are big enough to get blue sky inside them. Gundam makes use of two variations, open and closed types. The open types had agricultural rings for food production however we also know they had whole colonies devoted to food production, like the Texas colony, which was effectively a cattle ranch before Loum.

http://www.nss.org/settlement/space/oneillcylinder.htm

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/ ... 200459.jpg - Meitzer Ronah looking out over the newly annexed Frontier IV colony from the docks (BlueRay F91 is nice)


I wonder what the Maharu Laser (Giant laser made out of a colony hull) would've done had it been fired on the Earth...

If life on a space colony is better than life on Earth, as you claim, why would the oppressors choose to live on Earth instead of the space colonies?

Because that's where they sent all the poor brown people? Actually, I think they Earth's population continued to dwindle all the way into Victory Gundam (UC 0153) where it's pretty much law that you can't live on Earth outside of certain cities IIRC.

[Darwin]

If life on a space colony is better than life on Earth, as you claim, why would the oppressors choose to live on Earth instead of the space colonies?

Inertia. They were already there and didn't want to leave. Nobody really likes having to leave home.

Their hearts were dragged down by the force of gravity. Only in space can humanity truly be free.

[avatarxprime]

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

History doesn't mean squat. We've routinely seem Starfleet pull stunts that no sane military would ever do. We also know that when faced with some new alien the first thing UE is gonna do is try to establish friendly first contact. The following sob story Zeon will deliver combined with genetic testing showing that they are just as human as ST humans will leave them trying to figure out what is going on more than thinking "we should go on a war footing." If anything they would probably want to immediately incorporate Zeon and their resources into their proto-Federation. The entire point of the UE is that all humans should be working together.

Zeon should then be able to hold off doing anything overtly antagonistic for 2 years. At that point Earth will be embroiled in the Romulan War. Zeon offering up their troops for assistance in that conflict with the condition they be fitted with warp drive and FTL comms would probably go over just fine with Starfleet. That gives Zeon access to all the tech they would require to bootstrap themselves to comparable levels to the Starfleet.

[Commander 598]

If life on a space colony is better than life on Earth, as you claim, why would the oppressors choose to live on Earth instead of the space colonies?

Inertia. They were already there and didn't want to leave. Nobody really likes having to leave home.

Their hearts were dragged down by the force of gravity. Only in space can humanity truly be free.

(Disregard the flag)

[Sidewinder]

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

History doesn't mean squat. We've routinely seem Starfleet pull stunts that no sane military would ever do. We also know that when faced with some new alien the first thing UE is gonna do is try to establish friendly first contact. The following sob story Zeon will deliver combined with genetic testing showing that they are just as human as ST humans will leave them trying to figure out what is going on more than thinking "we should go on a war footing." If anything they would probably want to immediately incorporate Zeon and their resources into their proto-Federation. The entire point of the UE is that all humans should be working together.

Zeon should then be able to hold off doing anything overtly antagonistic for 2 years. At that point Earth will be embroiled in the Romulan War. Zeon offering up their troops for assistance in that conflict with the condition they be fitted with warp drive and FTL comms would probably go over just fine with Starfleet. That gives Zeon access to all the tech they would require to bootstrap themselves to comparable levels to the Starfleet.

Go back & read what my post was replying to.

And once the UE spots Zeon's massive military capabilities, they'll be more reluctant to negotiate with them.

So they'd rather be standoffish and possibly offend people right in their own backyard who have a massive military complex than negotiate with them and NOT start a war?

If a violent criminal begins committing crimes in your neighborhood- rape, robbery, carjacking, etc.- will you not think, "I need a weapon to defend myself," & buy a gun or two?

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

All Zeon has to do is realize that the UE has a massive advantage in FTL travel/communications/sensors, lay low with the rhetoric while subtly planting little seeds of propaganda amongst Earth's population, and bide their time while trading for technology.

Zeon will EPIC FAIL in planting these seeds, because Zeon propaganda has very little appeal to humans in the ST universe.

And Zeon can pass off its military as being for self-defense because they were fighting an oppressive regime in their native universe. And, naturally, they still have a right to defend themselves from aggressors, especially now that they're in a whole new universe they're unfamiliar with. I'm sure the people of the UE, having just been through the Xindi, can appreciate that.

What makes you think United Earth will not decide, "Yeah, having a self-defense force is a good idea," & expand its own military, instead of saying, "We need protection, but we don't want to expend resources to expand our own military. Can you Zeon guys provide protection?" making United Earth a Zeon protectorate?

Thus, Zeon can spend their time gathering intelligence and allies, upgrading their ships with warp drive and shields, and then conquer the Earth when the time is right.

What makes you think Zeon can catch up w/ Starfleet, which has operated warp-capable ships for decades, will likely continue to research warp technology, & continue to build warp-capable ships?

It's a far cry from "Zeon bides its time, catches up w/ Starfleet, & then conquers United Earth," & "Zeon bides its time, allies itself w/ Starfleet during the Romulan War, & then unites w/ United Earth to form a new state."

The biggest turn off for colonies is that they are extremely easy to control- hold the life support systems and the populance has to dance to your tune.

Not true. The life support is the local ecosystem, just like on Earth, which isn't so easy to take out.

Just look at Gundam - if it were this easy, why didn't the combatants do that?

The combatants have done this, you deluded fool!

"The Three Seconds of Declaration"
At 0720 on January 3, U.C.0079, the Principality of Zeon unilaterally declares war against the Earth Federation. Merely three seconds later (known to UC historians as Zeon's Three Seconds of Declaration), the Zeon forces launch all-out surprise attacks against the Federation's garrisons at the space colonies located in the Zahn province of Side 1, the Hatte province in Side 2 and the Mua province in Side 4. NBC Weapons are used indiscriminately, while Zeon nerve gas attacks (used to suppress the garrisons from mobilizing) slaughters the spacenoids Zeon claims to protect. In just one day of fighting, over 2.8 billion innocent civilians are killed.

Operation British
<snip>
During the opening battles of the One Week War, Zeon troops launch a gas attack on Island Iffish, a colony in the Hatte province of Side 2, employing a highly-toxic nerve gas known as GG, which is able to enter even into the gas shelters via the colony's ventilation system. The cleansing of the colony's entire population is accomplished within 20 minutes.

The Antarctic Treaty
With the capture of General Revil, the aborted colony drop and heavy losses on both sides, the Earth Federation and Principality of Zeon agree to a truce. Using the recent victory at Loum, Gihren Zabi intends to intimidate the Federation into submission by threatening dropping Luna II on Jaburo. While negotiating the conditions of the Federation's surrender, Revil is rescued by federal agents within the Principality and makes a speech to the Federation Assembly, revealing "Zeon is exhausted!". The Federation receives a boost in morale and rejects the conditions of surrender, but agrees to treaty prohibiting the use of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, colony drops, and attacks on the Jupiter Energy fleets, whilst recognizing the neutrality of the space colonies at Side 6, and determining the rules of war. This Antarctic Treaty was signed on January 31st UC 0079.

The Earth Drop Operations
<snip>
The ban on nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, and colony drops dashes Zeon's hope for a quick conclusion to the war, forcing them to invade Earth territories to secure mining resources, which are scarce in space.

The citizens of the Federation start to resent the Titans' methodology, and on July 31, UC 0085, a massive protest is held in Side 1's 30 Bunch (the 30th colony in the area) against the Titans' actions, but the demonstration soon turns into chaos, rioting breaking throughout the colony. After repeated failed attempts by Federation colonial forces to suppress the riots, the Titans are dispatched to put it to an end. Shutting off the colony's air supply, they proceed to pump the whole colony cylinder (about 20 miles (32 km) long and 4 miles (6.4 km) wide) with a lethal nerve gas called G3, killing the entire populace.

Emphasis mine.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Does anyone actually have a video clip of one of the Colony drops? Ive been trying to find one on youtube and havn't, mostly because I want to look at the speed and angle that its coming down.

[Commander 598]

Don't think there is one but according to Gundam Century the Operation British colony hit reentry at about 11km/s, possibly over or in the vicinity of Arabia which is where it collapsed.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Does anyone actually have a video clip of one of the Colony drops? Ive been trying to find one on youtube and havn't, mostly because I want to look at the speed and angle that its coming down.

The only one I know of is in a prologue from the first dozen or so episodes of the original series, but I don't think it's very accurate for calculations because it's animated impacting the surface so slowly (although that could be because of its size).

[Commander 598]

Disregard that above,

11km/s plus:

The colony entered the atmosphere at a shallow angle, at an altitude of more than a hundred kilometers over Africa. It continued its flight while undergoing about three gees of deceleration due to the atmosphere, and was scheduled to fall on Jaburo about 40 minutes later. However, its flight went smoothly only for the first few minutes after atmospheric entry.

As it passed over Arabia, the colony collapsed. The front section veered south and fell onto Sydney, Australia. All three of the rear section's land panels veered north, with two falling onto North America and one in the Pacific Ocean. The remaining mirror fragments fell across the surface of the Earth.

[Samuel]

which is able to enter even into the gas shelters via the colony's ventilation system.

Isn't a useful as

Shutting off the colony's air supply

Zeon wasn't really all that evil, it was mostly just Gihren planning to be Hitler when he assumed the throne and planning to knock off family members...

... They killed 2 billion civilians. They were collateral damage, but their goals required that billions had to die.

Probably. Though, being on Earth was no protection either. It is sheer luck that that beam didn't slash through major cities.

It did. Tucker lost a sister due to the beam.

The natural resources of Zeon are less than 1/30 of the Earth Federation's. Despite that major difference, how is it that they were able to fight the Federation for so long? It was because their goal in the war was a rightous one.

The Principality of Zeon had a long and arduous struggle to achieve freedom for all citizens of their great nation. Their fight was sacred, their cause divine!

They tried words, but words didn't work. They needed action to ensure their freedom would never be trampled by the Federation again.


Don't just look at the one-sided propaganda of the Federation victors. Look at the real facts and see the truth.

Hail Zeon!

So, not Space Nazis, but Space Empire of Japan?

[Ford Prefect]

For the higher number, let's do the math on 11 km/s. 1/2 m * v^2 = ~1e20 joules. About 24 gigatons. (Give or take a factor of ten.)

I'm pretty sure this is closer to the number than Captain Synapse gives to Nina Purpleton when they're flying over 'Sydney' in Stardust Memory.

"Looks like we're almost at Australia."
"Actually, we've been flying over Australia for some time."

[Swindle1984]

I don't give a shit how charismatic Zeon's "mouthpiece" is. When a massive group of space colonies suddenly appears on the other side of the moon and starts spewing psudo-religious bullshit that flys in the face of evolutionary theory, people on the UE aren't going to buy it.

Even when Zeon has Newtypes to prove it?

Zeon propaganda on "advancing human evolution" hinges on the fact that you're more exposed to radiation on a space colony than you are on a planetary surface, where you have the atmosphere- 120 kilometers thick in Earth's case- to shield you. Exposure to radiation may cause genetic mutations, such as cancer- making the "expose yourself to radiation & evolve into a Neotype" thing a game of Russian roulette.

Oh hey, wikipedia links to the definition of words used in common english. Yes, you're very clever. For a fifth grader.

Does Zeon have a higher rate of cancer than earth-bound humans? If cancer is a concern, are Zeon's and the UE's medical technologies unable to deal with it? Maybe Phlox can put a booger up your ass and cure your prostate cancer.

And once the UE spots Zeon's massive military capabilities, they'll be more reluctant to negotiate with them.

So they'd rather be standoffish and possibly offend people right in their own backyard who have a massive military complex than negotiate with them and NOT start a war?

If a violent criminal begins committing crimes in your neighborhood- rape, robbery, carjacking, etc.- will you not think, "I need a weapon to defend myself," & buy a gun or two?

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

All Zeon has to do is realize that the UE has a massive advantage in FTL travel/communications/sensors, lay low with the rhetoric while subtly planting little seeds of propaganda amongst Earth's population, and bide their time while trading for technology.

Zeon will EPIC FAIL in planting these seeds, because Zeon propaganda has very little appeal to humans in the ST universe.

And Zeon can pass off its military as being for self-defense because they were fighting an oppressive regime in their native universe. And, naturally, they still have a right to defend themselves from aggressors, especially now that they're in a whole new universe they're unfamiliar with. I'm sure the people of the UE, having just been through the Xindi, can appreciate that.

What makes you think United Earth will not decide, "Yeah, having a self-defense force is a good idea," & expand its own military, instead of saying, "We need protection, but we don't want to expend resources to expand our own military. Can you Zeon guys provide protection?" making United Earth a Zeon protectorate?

I didn't want to quote this entire mess of inanity, but it bears quoting just so you can look at the nonsense you wrote and my responses.

WWII Britain and Germany is completely fucking different from Zeon and the UE. If you're too stupid to understand that, then go sit in the corner and play with your colored blocks.

Britain had fought a war with Germany just previously, Germans held a grudge against Britain and France for screwing them over after the war, and had begun a massive military build-up whilst their leader spouted rhetoric about Germans being the master race destined to conquer the earth. Oh, and that little thing with invading Czechoslavakia and Poland. NO SHIT Britain wanted to get its military built up in case the Germans started a war.

In this case, you have the UE suddenly having an entire civilization from another universe magically appearing in their backyard, complete with a massive military. All they know about Zeon's history is what the Zeons tell them, and considering the sob story they can spin up about having been fighting a war of self-defense against an evil, despotic regime that sought to enslave them (even better if they casually mention that the EF had allied with aliens to do it. Now they've got everyone with a poor opinion of aliens after the Xindi attack sympathetic to them.), so OF COURSE they have a big military. These are not a people who have a history of attacking the UE, nor have they spontaneously started attacking Earth's neighbors. And Zeon's schtick is that humanity as a whole should colonize space (which the UE is fine with, though not quite the same way the Principality of Zeon means) and evolve into Newtypes (which may smack of eugenics to the people of the UE, but if Zeon plays it right... Considering how Phlox and Archer murdered an entire sentient species so another species could "evolve", telling people that they're on the next step of evolution probably wouldn't put them off too badly.), not that Zeons are destined to conquer and enslave all non-Zeon's.

And yes, while the UE probably won't be comfortable with a huge military suddenly popping up on their doorstep (who would be?), they would still realize that they hold a massive strategic advantage over Zeon for the moment. All Zeon has to do is play up the "best interests of humanity as a whole" angle and seek to open formal relations (ambassadors, trade agreements, etc.) and 'prove' that they're not hostile and the UE will start to relax. "Oh, this new universe we've mysteriously appeared in is full of hostile aliens who launched genocidal attacks against your planet? Gee, we'd better keep our military then, just in case we get attacked too. How about a mutual defense treaty?"

No, Earth isn't going to subcontract its military to Zeon. Suggesting that anyone would think such is fucking retarded.

All Zeon has to do is convince the UE that it isn't hostile long enough to buy what it needs to close the technological gap. You also have to factor in Starfleet (granted, most of it being post-Enterprise) doing stupid shit like not building up its defenses or refusing to fight back for fear of offending someone who is actively hostile toward them. Especially since they seem to consider all humans as being united, much like all Vulcans are united, all Romulans are united, etc. rather than having multiple nations made up of the same species (i.e., no Klingon Empire here, Klingon Republic there, and a group of Klingon Libertarians over there. Just one Klingon political entity.). They likely would try to convince Zeon to join the UE.

Thus, Zeon can spend their time gathering intelligence and allies, upgrading their ships with warp drive and shields, and then conquer the Earth when the time is right.

What makes you think Zeon can catch up w/ Starfleet, which has operated warp-capable ships for decades, will likely continue to research warp technology, & continue to build warp-capable ships? What makes you think United Earth will not continue to send forth exploration, colonization, & diplomatic missions- i.e., scouting, expanding, & seeking allies- while Zeon is waiting for the right time?

[/quote]

Considering other species have purchased warp drive and other technology and become interstellar traders, it's not impossible for Zeon to do the same. Especially since Starfleet is still fledgling compared to the rest of the Alpha Quadrant and doesn't have much in the way of a military fleet.

Voila. Zeon buys warp drives for its fleet of warships and starts installing shields while foreigners (other humans or alien traders like the Ferengi- not the Ferengi themselves, before you try to nitpick that, dumbass) help train them in its use. They don't need to know the physics behind all that shit (do you need to know how an internal combustion engine works or how to program a computer in order to drive your car?), they just need to know how to install it, maintain it, and use it. Their scientists and engineers can figure out the physics later; meanwhile, everybody can read the fucking manual.