Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

[mr friendly guy]

Rethinking about crucial points of this, why couldn't Rassilon just evacuate large chunks of the TL out in case Gallifrey failed to make it through.

They can send a diamond to the link with the Master, but presumably the object they send has to be small, according to dialogue.

So
1) why not stock every TL into a TARDIS. A TL prison ship can stock lots of Daleks, and we have seen how big the Doctor's TARDIS is.
2) Shrink the TARDIS down to the size of the diamond. We have seen from the old series TARDISes can be shrunk to small sizes "Logopolis", "planet of giants".
3) Send TARDIS through and enlarge on the other side.
4) Either Gallifrey stays inside the time lock and the TL win be default, so there is no need to bring about the end of time or Rassilon continues with his mad scheme, but like the Diamond, they are already there.

That's the problem with RTD. He needed a reset button method for the Doctor to win in a few minutes, so he had to make various plot points which allowed the Time Lords to come back but with a weak spot for the Doctor to manipulate. Unfortunately it also means that on closer examination the Doctor's foes should be able to also protect their weak spot.

[Gramzamber]

On the minus side, we see a fucking Dalek. As if we haven't seen enough of them to last 20 years worth of Doctor Who.

Yes, because clearly, they're going to do away with the series' most well-known villains. The TARDIS and Daleks are about the only things the general public really knows about Doctor Who.

On the other hand, it might have just been the lighting, but that one didn't look like a bronze Time War Dalek.

(WTF? Firefox's spellcheck has "Klingon" but not "Dalek"? )

Because it's been drilled into our heads that the Time Lords and Daleks are dead and gone, yet almost every fucking season some Daleks turn up and cause trouble.
I don't care if it's a Time War Dalek or a regular Dalek or a Dalek from the Peter Cushing movies. If they're gone they're gone!
On the other hand RTD wrote himself an opportunity to bring the Time Lords and by extension the Daleks for good or at least a season or two and instead gleefully hits the reset button like a child playing whack-a-mole. That's lazy and stupid.

[NecronLord]

Rethinking about crucial points of this, why couldn't Rassilon just evacuate large chunks of the TL out in case Gallifrey failed to make it through.

They can send a diamond to the link with the Master, but presumably the object they send has to be small, according to dialogue.

You are assuming it's external dimensions, and not 'relative dimensions' that have to be small. There's no reason to think so.

[NecronLord]

It didn't look like a time war era dalek. Personally I think they should give the daleks a break and introduce new villains. Makes for more variety and gives them more toys to sell.

Mondas-Cybermen. Seriously. You could redesign them into kings of awesome, and make them as powerful as you want. Why they keep using Daleks for everything is beyond me.

And I want a Rassilon figure. Timothy Dalton looked awesome in his scenes. Its a pity he was let down by RTD's script. That being said Rassilon was pretty badass in the EU, and aside from that moment where he just allows the Doctor to blow up the link, he was still cool, manipulating the Master to bring the TL back and undoing the Master's plan with a flick of the wrist.

You know, I recently ordered the Season 3 Time Lord. Now they'll have a whole new bunch out next year no doubt. And yeah, Dalton had enormous presence in this.

Another thought I had. The Timelock seems to be some sort of technobabble barrier preventing time travel through certain points related to the time war. The TL clearly could still manipulate time within the time lock (since they just retroactively caused the Master to hear the sound of drums). The Gallifreyan high council clearly breached the Time Lock for a brief period of time since Rassilon could effect things on earth. Also time lock can be breached (ask Dalek Caan) albeit with difficulty. So when the Gallifreyan high council returned back into the Time War period, the time lock resealed again.

Why couldn't the TL just reseal the time lock before something else got out. If the whole planet transiting would break the time lock, another possible plot point could have the TL send numerous TARDISes through and letting Gallifrey perish. This way they don't need to go all "end of time" on us.

Frankly, I was hoping for a scene of hundreds of TARDISes flying through the vortex. One way or another. Possibly in their old default form or some updated version, but we didn't get that.

[TC Pilot]

It was an alright episode. Not as terrible as I thought it would be, though.

For starters, was there any reason to have Donna in the episode? Any at all?

Maybe I missed it, but the Master sorta just...vanishes there at the end. His character was actually bearable this time, what with not being a babbling lunatic or putting us through those stupid eating scenes.

So Mickey and Martha are together... except wasn't Mickey in an alternate universe with Rose and family? Considering everyone just magically transmorgrified into the same person and a huge planet just materialized in orbit, that Sontaran didn't seem particularly bothered. And that bar scene with Jack was awful. Apparently aliens don't do anything like change their clothes over the course of thousands of years.

I did like the scene on Gallifrey and the allusion to all the shit going on in the Time War. Honestly, since it seems like the Time Lords were on the verge of completely losing, I could see why they might decide to destroy the universe in order to survive. Also, am I the only one who thought that the one Time Lord councillor, the guy that talks about the prophecy to Dalton, looks a lot like James Purefoy, the guy who played Marc Antony in Rome?

In any case, I'm pleasantly surprised by the new 11th Doctor so far.

[DaveJB]

So Mickey and Martha are together... except wasn't Mickey in an alternate universe with Rose and family?

He was, but apparently Rose dumped him because she wanted to get back together with the Doctor, so Mickey decided to stay in our universe in Journey's End.

I suppose a bigger question is what happened to the guy that Martha was meant to be engaged to in the Sontaran two-parter. Maybe the poor fool got killed off-screen in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and Mickey moved in on his girl afterwards.

Considering everyone just magically transmorgrified into the same person and a huge planet just materialized in orbit, that Sontaran didn't seem particularly bothered.

The episode didn't make it particularly clear, but presumably some time passed between the Gallifrey near-miss and Martha & Mickey's battle with the Sontaran.

[NecronLord]

So Mickey and Martha are together... except wasn't Mickey in an alternate universe with Rose and family? Considering everyone just magically transmorgrified into the same person and a huge planet just materialized in orbit, that Sontaran didn't seem particularly bothered. And that bar scene with Jack was awful. Apparently aliens don't do anything like change their clothes over the course of thousands of years.

I thought the notion was that he was travelling backward and forward in time. That Sontaran could have been weeks or years later. The Hath at least, probably should have had different breathers in that scene, though.

[Gramzamber]

Okay another issue I have with this story: Why were the Master clones so obedient? This is the Master. Is he really happy being UNIT Operator #4 or Chinese Grunt #2435 without a whole "one true Master" war breaking out?

[PREDATOR490]

I just saw this and found it completely appalling.

After all the build up to the return of the Timelords and it gets undone in minutes while having to sit through the Tennant's montage of self indulgent bullshit. Maybe if he did something WORTH it during this montage but all he does is piss around with the epic broody look. Donna I can justify being in cause thats part of the background of Wilf.

Martha and Mickey - Completely pointless and unneeded... so who was with her on the honeymoon in Children of Earth ?
Yeah, they are 'freelancers' that apparantly sat back and didnt try to help when the world's children were being held hostage. You could have done anything, even shown Martha's phone was destroyed in passing.

Jack Harkness - Yeah, dont talk Jack into going back to Torchwood and defending the Earth. Instead set him up on a date... seriously ?

Family of Blood woman - Ok, this I found a bit interesting if somewhat pointless.

Rose - When I saw her I was expecting it to be another 'collapsing a star' message. No, that could potentially have worked, instead the Doctor throws the laws of not being able to cross his own timeline and shitting bricks at the mere thought of causing a paradox... to go back in time and see Rose. Its not like Rose might remember meeting the Doctor like Martha did when he pulled that stupid stunt and its not like the Doctor is prone to fucking things up when he jumps through time. What a great idea, go back in time, see Rose when your on the verge of dying and potentially die / regenerate right in the street next to her home. The scene itself is just utterly pointless.

Donna / Wilf - Fair enough, at least that made sense for the Doctor to clear up.

As for the regeneration. From the brief look at Matt Smith, I am not impressed, it would be nice to get a Doctor that actually projects the aura of someone who has lived for 902 years and seen all this stuff. I want a snippy doctor like Colin Baker or a 'Professor' like Sylvestor McCoy. Instead it looks like they are going to try and have a 'serious' Matt Smith on occassion... much like they did with Tennant.

As for the 'preview',
Daleks, again ? = Sigh
Vampires = Lets jump on the Twilight / True Blood band wagon
Violent Doctor = Yeah, the Doctor is suddenly going to start using guns and hitting things after this special where Tennant bitches and moans about he cant / wont do that. If they want to show a much more brutal Doctor then I'm all for it but after 4 years of watching the Doctor do nothing but wave a Sonic Screwdriver around to do everything, I seriously doubt they would go down that path. Instead I can see it being another Family of Blood affair where the Doctor goes nuts in an 'evil' tangent only to be all jokes and comedy otherwise.

[Captain Seafort]

Okay another issue I have with this story: Why were the Master clones so obedient? This is the Master. Is he really happy being UNIT Operator #4 or Chinese Grunt #2435 without a whole "one true Master" war breaking out?

I interpreted them as not being independent individuals, but simply extensions of the original Master, so he was effectively multitasking on an insane level.

[Drooling Iguana]

On the minus side, we see a fucking Dalek. As if we haven't seen enough of them to last 20 years worth of Doctor Who.

It looked like an old-style grey Dalek, though, so maybe this means that they're going to bring them back in such a way that they're not going to have to kill them off again at the end of every episode.

As for the episode itself, Eleven made a decent first impression, but the rest was utter drek. Still, it was the same sort of utter drek that I've come to expect from RTD finales, so I can't really be too angry with it, especially given the knowledge that this is the last RTD finale we're going to have to suffer through (for a while, at least. I wouldn't rule out him coming back to the show in a few years if the BBC thinks it'd boost ratings.)

[NecronLord]

Okay another issue I have with this story: Why were the Master clones so obedient? This is the Master. Is he really happy being UNIT Operator #4 or Chinese Grunt #2435 without a whole "one true Master" war breaking out?

I bet you'd be complaining about it being a cliché if they fought over who was in charge, too.

[Captain Seafort]

As for the episode itself, Eleven made a decent first impression, but the rest was utter drek. Still, it was the same sort of utter drek that I've come to expect from RTD finales, so I can't really be too angry with it, especially given the knowledge that this is the last RTD finale we're going to have to suffer through (for a while, at least. I wouldn't rule out him coming back to the show in a few years if the BBC thinks it'd boost ratings.)

Actually, I'd call it 90 per cent very good quality. The problem was that part of the 10 per cent was the "evil Time Lords" point, which directly led to the whole thing falling flat. Remove that point and there's no reason for the Doctor to try and send them back, which leads to a natural conclusion of the permanent return of the Time Lords. That can lead into the next few years of the Doctor running into all the other nasties brought back with them, including being able to have Dalek stories without having to wipe them all out at the end.

[Darwin]

So apparently Eleven's catchphrase is going to be 'Geronimo!'? Ugh.

[Gramzamber]

Okay another issue I have with this story: Why were the Master clones so obedient? This is the Master. Is he really happy being UNIT Operator #4 or Chinese Grunt #2435 without a whole "one true Master" war breaking out?

I bet you'd be complaining about it being a cliché if they fought over who was in charge, too.

The Master is a walking cliche, why would I?

[Drooling Iguana]

Actually, I'd call it 90 per cent very good quality. The problem was that part of the 10 per cent was the "evil Time Lords" point, which directly led to the whole thing falling flat. Remove that point and there's no reason for the Doctor to try and send them back, which leads to a natural conclusion of the permanent return of the Time Lords. That can lead into the next few years of the Doctor running into all the other nasties brought back with them, including being able to have Dalek stories without having to wipe them all out at the end.

The other 90 per cent was just standard RTD bombast and plotless melodrama. I wouldn't call that "very good quality."

Although I did like the cactus girl. Wouldn't mind seeing her actress back in another role.

[Captain Seafort]

The other 90 per cent was just standard RTD bombast and plotless melodrama. I wouldn't call that "very good quality."

The Master trying to find out what the noise in his head is? A natural part of the character, and probably the best performance I've seen from Simm in the series.

The Time Lords' return? It's about time (no pun intended), it could have been absolutely brilliant, and Dalton was excellent.

Bernard Cribbins with a laser cannon? Nuff said.

The Doctor grumbling about his approaching regeneration? If you'd been killed nine times and come back as, effectively, a different person each time I suspect you'd be pretty hacked off at the prospect of it happening again as well.

I freely admit that even the rest of it isn't the best episode of sci-fi ever made (far from it), but bad because of two fundamental aspects - hitting the reset button on the Time Lords (which can be traced back to them wanting to wipe out creation), and the drivel between the Doctor getting a fatal dose of radiation and his actual regeneration. Even that montage would have been alright (if something of a drag) if the regeneration had been Time Lord-imposed rather than due to injury.

[Bedlam]

Looks like we get Silurians or Sea Devils next series which I'm looking forward to.

Also more angels I dont feel good about that, I dont think they can top Blink.

And vampires apparently or at least something with very pointy teeth.

[NecronLord]

The weeping angels had pointy teeth, as I recall.

And it's not like Vampires are unknown in who, either. I doubt very much they'll resemble Twilight or True Blood.

[Captain Seafort]

And it's not like Vampires are unknown in who, either. I doubt very much they'll resemble Twilight or True Blood.

Indeed, and given that one's already turned up (or at least as near as damnit) in "Smith and Jones" it's about time they had the genuine article. I hope they at least make a reference to the war and Rasillon's decree.

[TC Pilot]

He was, but apparently Rose dumped him because she wanted to get back together with the Doctor, so Mickey decided to stay in our universe in Journey's End.

I'd forgotten that. I just assumed he got dumped into the alternate universe along with everyone else.

Here's another thing: why did Mr. Smith bother to put out a cover story for the incident? Is it any more traumatic than "Big Ben smashed by flying saucer," "Aliens hypnotize a quarter of the population on Christmas," "Star-shaped ship with death ray attacks London on Christmas," "Flying Titanic nearly hits Buckingham...on Christmas," "Alien ship appears over London and snatches up millions of balls of fat," "Giant Cyberman invasion/battle with Daleks," "Giant Dalek invasion," or are DoctorWho earthlings even more stupid than Stargate Earthlings?

[Darwin]

huh. confirmed by RTD in episode commentary, the Woman in White is the Doctor's mother.

[mr friendly guy]

What the fuck. Its the Doctor's mother. Is there a point just introducing a character which is supposed to have some connection to the protagonist only to have her killed off so quickly. Heck, at least if it turned out to be Susan or Romana it would have been a nice reveal moment.

[Parallax]

I'm watching part 2 right now so I think I'll make notes as I go. I've tried to avoid spoilers and other people's comment thus far.

Rather strong start; the glimpses of Gallifrey with Time War Damage were interesting but kind of throw the Time War timeline into question. Is that the main Dalek fleet dead on the ground around the Citadel? If so, then the Time War would have to be over by this point. The Citadel seems to be rather heavily damaged but I really like that table.

The Visionary seems a throwback to the Pythia (from the novels). She needs to eat some fish tongues.

Nice conversation between the Doctor and the Master but the dialogue was awkward. "You're wonderful" and all that ... half expected them to start making out. Donna scene entirely unnecessary.

Cactus aliens still unnecessary. Wheeling the Doctor around thing cringe worthy, the background music is really bad. Far too slapstick. The Master thinks not to post guards around the central control area for the technology allowing him to be everyone? The Doctor was right, he is an idiot.

Cactus people spaceship CGI was nice. Obviously Cactus people went and raided one of the Starbugs off the Red Dwarf at some point and just gave it a quick paint job. Hm, background music is still rather bad, badly matched to the scenes.

Wilf is a really good, solid character. He's really had minimal screen time before this but he's still stealing all the scenes he's in despite being a non-manic and non-energetic character. This is a character I would like to see being a TARDIS companion rather than wastes of oxygen such as Rose or even Martha.

So, these Time Lords are within the Time Lock. That suggests that the Time War is over ... that makes sense given the destroyed Dalek fleet on the doorstep. But didn't Gallifrey burn as per the Doctor's words? Went boom? Guess he was bullshitting again. At least this scene explains why the earlier (and better) Master's didn't hear the drums ... the Time Lords retroactively changed the Master's timeline.

If the Time Lords are capable of only sending out a very basic message and a special diamond/mini-star through the Time Lock ... how is the Time Lady able to send out a pretty real/detailed image of herself that's able to interact fully with Wilf? Why not just talk to the Doctor and tell him what to do? Why not appear to the Master and verbally bitchslap him? Once again, however, Wilf is awesome even though he's completely out of his depth and looks hopelessly lost and confused.

Imagine a Doctor Who drinking game. Every time the Doctor says "sorry" you have to take a shot. I think you'd end up dead before the end of the series.

Template snapping ... at least that explains why the Master-clones aren't all fighting to get control and are blindly taking orders. Not a great reason but I suppose it's plausible.

"Never! I can't use a gun! Time Lords? Gimme that thing!"
Hm, I guess the Doctor's principles aren't all that steadfast.

The High Council seems to have increased in number a lot. It used to be half a dozen or so people, now it seems every living Time Lord gets a voice judging by that hall. Not a good idea.

In regards to being stuck in space on the pseudo-spacebug ... the Doctor seems to have forgotten the trick regarding being able to summon the TARDIS using the TARDIS key and a battery. Facing the Master, who really wants to get his hands on it, you'd think one of the things the Doctor would do is want to get it off Earth and say ... onto an orbiting spaceship pretty quickly. It'd also mean, oddly enough, the Doctor and friends would have an instant way to bypass any UNIT, NATO, etc defences the Master has control of.

Missiles? What about the Torchwood alien weapons designed to destroy alien craft? Laser pods seem very Millennium Falcon. Needs more TIE Fighters. How about a small nuke ... I'm sure an EMP would work nicely to disable the Starbug.

For a spaceship, it seems to take a long time to cover a mere fifty kilometres.

That falling sequence was really, really bad. You'd think he'd avoid such a thing (by, say, using a TARDIS) since his 4th self went out via a much shorter and somewhat softer (grass vs tiles) drop.

Head-shaking looks just as incredibly bad as it did the first time around. Scenes like this really make you think RTD needs a script editor to beat him about the head with a rewritten/polished script a lot.

Dalton really does look like a magnificent bastard. I'd certainly like to see him return to this series as head of the Time Lords.

The link is inside the Master's head. Fine. It's a desperate gamble on the part of the Time Lord's and rather ad hoc. Usual precautions can't be taken - but the plan falls down at the point where the President rebukes the Master and basically tells him to sod off. If the Master dies when creation goes bye-bye then the link goes away and the ascension can't happen because the Time Lords are suddenly time locked again.

The President really is an idiot. He's got the disintegration glove to remove the Doctor with. Or, if that needs time to recharge, he can simply throw his damn six foot tall staff at the Doctor's head while he's busy pointing a gun at the Master. Of course, pointing an ordinary gun at a TIME LORD really is pointless anyhow since regeneration is going to happen. You need to take out both hearts or decapitate them to stop it.

The whole time lock thing is really a non-factor anyhow. We've seen that a single Dalek can break it (though it sent it insane) at a moments notice. I can only assume that a prepared bunch of Time Lords could manage it without too much hassle - all they'd have to do is avoid the insanity bit. I'd imagine a TARDIS could easily do it.
"So, our plan failed, President 'Rassilon'."
"Yeah, bugger it. Stupid time lock around us. Oh well, back to sitting around a cool table and listening to a crazy tattooed woman for us, I guess."
"Yes, times like this you wish you had a bunch of time vehicles which could penetrate the barriers around universes, time and even go outside of spacetime, don't you."
"..."

I'm guessing that Time Lady is Romana in another incarnation. It's the only way she could influence the Doctor with just a look. Would have been nice if they'd gotten Lalla Ward in for a cameo (she still looks remarkably the same despite the years).

"Rassilon" ... hm. Not sure if it's really him or if the Doctor was using it as some sort of cultural insult. eg, "Your schemes and plans were as insane and evil as Rassilon's so I'll call you by his name."

Haha. The four knocks thing is a nice touch. Wilf is awesome, if nothing else because he's the cause of the death of Emo-Doctor. Though, once again, summoning the TARDIS would get both of this predicament rather easily. Maybe the show needs a continuity editor as well as a script editor.

Oh, grow up you emo-twit Doctor. You've died willingly before for people (Peri springs to mind, amongst many others) without the slightest hesitation. The fifth Doctor may have been a vulnerable, probably-too-human pacifist at times but he showed ten times the nobility and maturity you are.
And can't the Doctor shake the radiation out of his foot like ... you know, he did at the start of the season? Then again, Planet of the Spiders radiation did him in once before.

The Doctor seems to have forgotten about the whole finger-snap-to-open-TARDIS-door thing. This is probably a good thing just for the sake of narrative drama (people stealing the key, key gets lost, mad scramble to put key into lock, etc) but it's still an example of script continuity weakness.

Oh look. Mos Eisley space port. Scum and villainy abounds.
Hh. Yeah, the best gift the Doctor can give Jack is a date? Way to feed his already overblown ego.

This whole goodbye/visiting sequence seems to reek of self indulgent wankery somehow. It's certainly going on for far, far, far too long.

"never carry money" ... Hm. So all the times he's emptied his pockets with all sorts of alien currency didn't happen. Gotcha.

Oh bugger. Like we needed to see bloody Rose and her bloody mother again. *sigh*. Ood ... the singing and background music. Yep, self indulgent wankery.

Once again, grow the hell up. "I don't want to go" ... probably a nice example of the immature nature of this Doctor. None of the previous incarnations particularly wanted to end either but at least they all, to a man, faced it with honour and nobility. Way to let the team down. When he gets to where-ever past incarnations go, I can just see the 1st Doctor giving the 10th a huge verbal beat down on this matter.

Um, so why did the TARDIS explode and catch on fire this time when it didn't during the 9th/10th sequence (which was more or less identical)? You'd think if there was a chance of this happening then the Doctor would have the TARDIS on a hospitable planet rather than zooming through rather inhospitable space.

[Darwin]

What the fuck. Its the Doctor's mother. Is there a point just introducing a character which is supposed to have some connection to the protagonist only to have her killed off so quickly. Heck, at least if it turned out to be Susan or Romana it would have been a nice reveal moment.

Yeah, it's like RTD purposely avoided doing anything that would be an awesomely cool throwback.

I was really hoping it was Susan.