Avatar Force Sub: UNSC (Halo)

[Tanasinn]

I rather think the Pelicans are going to make the difference here, what with them being capable of atmospheric entry/exit and also well-armed. It's moot, though, because while the RDA may not come back with nukes, the UNSC will; no one in the UNSC is going to give a shit about alien persecution after the Covenant war.

[Kingmaker]

In regards to dropping the explosives, do we have a good guess for how large/heavy the explosive pallets are? Given that the delivery system apparently already consisted of shoving the bomb out the back of the Valkyrie with TLAR guidance, the more intelligent thing to do may be to stick the bomb pallets in the backs of the pelicans and drop in from space, pitch the bombs out the back, and go orbital again. Since the UNSC has numerous space-capable craft in this instance, unlike RDA (they only had 2 Valkyries, if I recall correctly), doing this will be far less risky than sending the Valkyrie in alone would be. Also, boarding a Pelican and shoving a grenade into an intake vent with be considerably more difficult.

Any civilisation with experience with sentient planets and group mind ecosystems, e.g. the Imperium of Man and arguably the UNSC, will likely be wary about nasty wildlife ganging up on them.

This brings up the question of how much the UNSC knows about Pandora. Given their experience with the Flood, when their Grace Augustine analog says there's a planet-wide neural network they are more likely take her seriously. Of course, their reaction isn't going to be "we better back down and think about this." It's going to be "we're going to need a lot more dakka". On the other hand, if they're just teleported into position en route to the Tree and told "blow this tree up. Go!", then yes, they won't be expecting Pandora's Wrath any more than RDA was.

I rather think the Pelicans are going to make the difference here, what with them being capable of atmospheric entry/exit and also well-armed. It's moot, though, because while the RDA may not come back with nukes, the UNSC will; no one in the UNSC is going to give a shit about alien persecution after the Covenant war.

This is another difference. RDA gets it ass kicked by the Na'vi, it's a twenty year round trip on ships with low cargo capacity, and a population that is probably going to be more pissed off at RDA than at the Na'vi. The UNSC gets its ass kicked, they come back in a few weeks (perhaps a bit longer, I don't remember exactly how fast UNSC slipstream drives are) armed to the teeth and with superior numbers.

[Shroom Man 777]

And I optimistically thought I was joking with the characterisation of the Na'vi-wankers as 'Ewya will pown Stormies, Daleks, Xeelee, all of the above at once!'.

Stormtroopers are not invulnerable to the effects of getting hit by hard objects, like rocks. Neither are AT-STs invulnerable to the effect of getting hit by hard objects, like logs. If the Stormies don't come packing big guns, they might lose. Unless blaster "small arms" can kill those supercreatures easily, then they don't lose - and you might make a case about how this might be the case, by using the example of Jango Fett downing that Space Rhino in AOTC with one shot from his blaster pistol, and if Stormie weapons can do that then the whole bunch of them can all just one-shot those space rhinoes.

But it's not like Stormtroopers have never been defeated before by the unexpected intervention of primitive indigenous life forms they've previously underlooked.

The Astartes, perhaps they could take on and defeat the hordes of supercreatures - if these are, like, the superawesome Space Marines who kick ass and ruin shit and take names and punch space demons in the face. However, there have been occasions - such as in Dan Abnett's Brotherhood of the Snake novel - where Marines have been taken down by hordes of civilians armed with farm implements, and certain clawed beasties (however, there was also the influence of Chaos, so make of it whatever you will).

But either way, the ground battle doesn't matter. If the TIE fighters or LAATs or Thunderhawks or what have you can fight through the swarm of pterodactyls and escort the Venture Star to its target, then they can win.

Any civilisation with experience with sentient planets and group mind ecosystems, e.g. the Imperium of Man and arguably the UNSC, will likely be wary about nasty wildlife ganging up on them. Anyone with decent sensors, probably from Trek level on up, will detect the whole 'planet mind' thing from orbit and aren't likely to be surprised.

Show me where the OP specifies that the Haloids have any foreknowledge of the existence of the hive mind, show me where they actively expect the planet's "biodefenses". Here is the OP, btw:

Just before the final battle at the Tree of Souls, all RDA forces are replaced by their equivalent UNSC counterparts (or closest equivalent). The big Dragon gunship is replaced by a Vulture, the Scorpions by Hornets, and the Samson transports by Pelicans carrying UNSC Marines and Warthogs, each with their regular mix of light and heavy weaponry. The shuttle remains the same, although it is now defended by ODST troopers; and everyone has rebreathers so they don't die from asphyxiation. Their mission is still the same, drop the big crate of explosives onto the Tree and slaughter the natives. Jake Sully is given knowledge of this change, along with information on the new forces and time to alter his plan if he needs too. Everything else is unchanged.

If teleport extractions followed by BDZ count as a win, any civ with teleportation should win, barring possibly Trek as their flakey teleports probably don't work in the target area.

Hrm... has Stargate teleportation ever been flaky? Anyway, I don't think SG-1 would do any sort of bombardment or shit. Not with Daniel Jackson around. He'd probably suffer a grievous wound, die, and Ascend but this time partially merged with Eywa.

I rather think the Pelicans are going to make the difference here, what with them being capable of atmospheric entry/exit and also well-armed.

So they'll do atmospheric entry and exit and... get sensor-blinded by the Flux Vortex, fly into a mountain or hit a crapload of banshees... and then crash and explode?

[Xon]

Anyone who uses LIDAR rather than radar will be largely unaffected by the strong magnetic fields.

Show me where the OP specifies that the Haloids have any foreknowledge of the existence of the hive mind, show me where they actively expect the planet's "biodefenses".

The existance of a proposed hive mind is stated well after the attack on the home tree and before the attack on the Tree of Souls.

Hrm... has Stargate teleportation ever been flaky?

Baring exotic sensor jamming fields, superdense atmosphere to shield the locator beacons, and being right next to motherfucking super-sized wormhole tearing spacetime a new one.

But the base is well clear of the "flux vortex", so that wouldn't stop anyway.

Anyway, I don't think SG-1 would do any sort of bombardment or shit.

There is a planet where they turned the surface into a glowing ball of plasma, a few stars they have exploded, the use of half a dozen naquadriah-naquadah bombs on the Asuran's homeworld which produced teraton explosions, etc.

Turning a once habitable planet into a lifeless rock is a reasonable well used skillset in Stargate-verse by SGC-Earth.

So they'll do atmospheric entry and exit and... get sensor-blinded by the Flux Vortex, fly into a mountain or hit a crapload of banshees... and then crash and explode?

Proof that a vehical capable of powered atmospheric entry would get LIDAR blinded by a magnetic field? Or have it's internal interia guidance broken?

Or being utter fucktards who don't use continuous sat coverage which can see the area clearly from open sky?

Hell, there are no floating mountains above the Tree of Souls.

[Shroom Man 777]

Anyone who uses LIDAR rather than radar will be largely unaffected by the strong magnetic fields.

Wait, the Flux Vortexes are magnetic fields?

The existance of a proposed hive mind is stated well after the attack on the home tree and before the attack on the Tree of Souls.

It was also ignored in the decision process that led to the attack because it looked like the ravings of a mad woman. The force sub occurs after Sigourney Grace Ripley has been ignored, after she's already dead and Jake Sully is leading the resistance.

There is a planet where they turned the surface into a glowing ball of plasma, a few stars they have exploded, the use of half a dozen naquadriah-naquadah bombs on the Asuran's homeworld which produced teraton explosions, etc.

Turning a once habitable planet into a lifeless rock is a reasonable well used skillset in Stargate-verse by SGC-Earth.

The fact that they can blow up planets does not mean they will actually commit atrocities. Stargate Command has shown itself to be not a bunch of genocide-happy genocidal shitstains.

Proof that a vehical capable of powered atmospheric entry would get LIDAR blinded by a magnetic field? Or have it's internal interia guidance broken?

Is it even a magnetic field? It would still have to maneuver around the floating mountains, and amidst those swarms of banshees. I mean, even if those RDA aircraft were unaffected by the Flux Vortex, their course would still have brought them into those mountains and functioning sensors would not have helped them when all those pterodactyls were all over them.

Or being utter fucktards who don't use continuous sat coverage which can see the area clearly from open sky?

Did the OP also force sub the RDA's satellites for some Haloid Sputniks?

Hell, there are no floating mountains above the Tree of Souls.

Wait, what? What were all those floating mountains in the final scenes then, when the RDA aircraft were just a handful of kilometers from the Tree of Souls?

(BTW: The Haloids' mission is STILL to escort the Venture Star on its jerry-rigged bombing run. The OP situation still hinges on the Haloid force's capabilities in PROTECTING the Venture Star shuttle as it approaches the Tree of Souls. If the Pelicans go all atmospheric entry or whatever and the Venture Star gets eaten by a space dinosaur, the Haloids still lose. Game over, man.)

[Xon]

Wait, the Flux Vortexes are magnetic fields?

Unobtainium is a room tempurature superconductor. Superconductors float in strong enough magnetic fields. They demonstrate that during a $20 million per kilogram quote! There are RL examples of using supercooled superconductors racing around tracks several inches above the track untill they warmup enough and stop being superconductors.

It is going to require quite high magnetic stength to levitate those mountains, but the magnetic fields are not causing metalic objects to jump around like crazy so it puts a fairly low bar.

Magnetic fields also mean electrical fields, which is the cause of the issues of the RDA. Notice the Venture Star never had any of the flickering issues with their navigation controls where as the almost unarmored helicopter clones did.

It was also ignored in the decision process that led to the attack because it looked like the ravings of a mad woman. The force sub occurs after Sigourney Grace Ripley has been ignored, after she's already dead and Jake Sully is leading the resistance.

USNC have experiance with stupidly advanced alien lifeforms pulling insane shit, they are less likely to ignore the advice.Also, there is no actual reason to deploy ground troups on a fucking bombing run.

And with the insane lifting power of the Pelicans, they can get in and out in minutes compared to taking the ground hugging route the RDA did.

The fact that they can blow up planets does not mean they will actually commit atrocities. Stargate Command has shown itself to be not a bunch of genocide-happy genocidal shitstains.

I agree, it is unlikely Stargate Command would deploy such obsense overkill. They could just hit the site from orbit with railgun rounds without needing to reduce a sizable chunk of the planet to an inhabitable state.

However, in the original script Avatar was based on, the SGC would not hesitate to reduce the planet to a dead world.

Is it even a magnetic field? It would still have to maneuver around the floating mountains, and amidst those swarms of banshees. I mean, even if those RDA aircraft were unaffected by the Flux Vortex, their course would still have brought them into those mountains and functioning sensors would not have helped them when all those pterodactyls were all over them.

RDA aircraft are well, aircraft. Pelicans are orbital insertion units capable of lugging around +60 tonne tanks.

Did the OP also force sub the RDA's satellites for some Haloid Sputniks?

They have Pelicans. Fly one up into orbit or high atmosphere and have it on overwatch duty.

Wait, what? What were all those floating mountains in the final scenes then, when the RDA aircraft were just a handful of kilometers from the Tree of Souls?

If you look at the satellite imagery and the views as you go in, the floating mountains are around it. And the fact that it recieves considerable daylight kinda says there is nothing blocking the sun.

(BTW: The Haloids' mission is STILL to escort the Venture Star on its jerry-rigged bombing run. The OP situation still hinges on the Haloid force's capabilities in PROTECTING the Venture Star shuttle as it approaches the Tree of Souls. If the Pelicans go all atmospheric entry or whatever and the Venture Star gets eaten by a space dinosaur, the Haloids still lose. Game over, man.)

They unload the fucking explosives, load them into pelicans because they aren't fucktards?

The mission is the deploy the explosives to the target, that the Venture Star starts with them onboard is completely besides the point.

The simple true is Pelicans are better at orbital insertions and extractions than the Venture Star. Using the Venture Star to deliever the explosives only makes vague sense when you don't have them. If you have Pelicans, it well into Pant-On-Head Retarded to continue to use the Venture Star on such a mission.

[open_sketchbook]

Seems to me like everything else stays home as another Pelican loads up with the explosives, swings down from way above Flux Vortex, Stukas the Home Tree by releasing the cargo latches, and flies away.

[Themightytom]

Hrm... has Stargate teleportation ever been flaky? Anyway, I don't think SG-1 would do any sort of bombardment or shit. Not with Daniel Jackson around. He'd probably suffer a grievous wound, die, and Ascend but this time partially merged with Eywa.

Wha.. How Dare You Sir.


Stargate teleporters haven't been flaky yet, and given the ability to teleport a building into orbit they would probably just move the tree after encountering resistance. Or given their mysterious ability tto speak to anyone, they would probably avert the battle, even after it started. They've started any number of clusterfucks and de-escalated them rather rapidly.

But either way, the ground battle doesn't matter. If the TIE fighters or LAATs or Thunderhawks or what have you can fight through the swarm of pterodactyls and escort the Venture Star to its target, then they can win.

The hornets seemingly endless supply of bullets and missiles could be handy in that reguard.

Any civilisation with experience with sentient planets and group mind ecosystems, e.g. the Imperium of Man and arguably the UNSC, will likely be wary about nasty wildlife ganging up on them. Anyone with decent sensors, probably from Trek level on up, will detect the whole 'planet mind' thing from orbit and aren't likely to be surprised.

Show me where the OP specifies that the Haloids have any foreknowledge of the existence of the hive mind, show me where they actively expect the planet's "biodefenses". Here is the OP, btw:

They knew about the natives believed in a hive mind before they went after the home tree, and Sully told them as much, Nobody lsitened because um... it sounds pretty stupid, unless you just finished fighting off the fucking gravemind...

The Op doesn't have to specify foreknowledge, he's making the point that the USMC might be better armed as SOP because of their experience. Which SHOULD be a given, as there appear to be an abundance of rockets and spartan lasers scattered about virtually every level of ODST. Why is this discrepency surprising? We jsut swapped mercs with military surplus for a legit military force.

I rather think the Pelicans are going to make the difference here, what with them being capable of atmospheric entry/exit and also well-armed.

So they'll do atmospheric entry and exit and... get sensor-blinded by the Flux Vortex, fly into a mountain or hit a crapload of banshees... and then crash and explode?

...or they can send the hornets in to scout and map the bullshittery, and use the atmospheric entry instead of flying through the canyons...

And why are there banshees?


Edited the quotes back to where they should be,

[Shroom Man 777]

The banshees are there because someone called the Pandoran pterodactyls banshees and I kind of slipped.

I agree, it is unlikely Stargate Command would deploy such obsense overkill. They could just hit the site from orbit with railgun rounds without needing to reduce a sizable chunk of the planet to an inhabitable state.

However, in the original script Avatar was based on, the SGC would not hesitate to reduce the planet to a dead world.

Eat crap.

SG-1 would so obviously resolve the situation wherein everyone ends up living happily ever after, with O'Neill making some pop culture reference that Teal'c doesn't get and gets confused at, after O'Neill and Daniel have one of their "Jack..." and "Daniel..." homoerotic exchange, while Sam gets to act like the smart and smexy smug smarmy smartass she is. The Na'vi probably end up regarding the SG-1 as heroes or something, even.


Anyway, fine, I concede. If it was a respectable military war-fighting invasion force, the Na'vi wouldn't have had a chance anyway.

[starfury]

Anyway, fine, I concede. If it was a respectable military war-fighting invasion force, the Na'vi wouldn't have had a chance anyway

The Na'vi only beat the RDA PMC force to begin since the whole thread started with aid from the hivemind to begin with, which was what lead this whole thing to begin with, the Navi are not the Covenant who are able to fight the UNSC toe to toe and blast their space fleet from the stars, and one should try conflate the two, or the Flood or Zerg swarms, that can absorb the best their enemies throw at them and shrug off even massive losses and relatively for the Zerg and Tyranid, near limitless numbers, both with actual space fleets of their own.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, the Na'vi DIDN'T have a chance against the RDA anyway. Yes, I meant Eywa.

Anyway, there was a slight chance that the UNSC forces in this force sub would've lost if the situation played out as it did in the movie. But with this new force, the situation could very easily NOT play out as it did in the movie, and that would end up with the total defeat of the Na'vi and the destruction of the Tree of Souls and the victory of the UNSC Haloid forces.

The Na'vi CAN still win the OP though, if Jake gets to blow up the Venture Star.

[starfury]

The Na'vi CAN still win the OP though, if Jake gets to blow up the Venture Star.

Ventare star, just like the little exhaust port that allowed mr. Luke skywalker to destroy that original weapon of technological terror, the Death star, it even rthymes

[Starglider]

I submit that Avatar should be edited down to 15 minutes, then made a mandatory educational film for all HAB children immature carbon units. To be used as edutainment to teach the 7 - 9 age bracket why massive overkill is always justified, and why you should always take the biggest guns you can carry.

[Sky Captain]

Since shuttle is the most important asset if Halo forces can protect it a bit better it would be a win for them. Even in original scenario without Jake blowing up an engine shuttle would have dumped the explosives on a tree, they were seconds from doing it anyway.

[Covenant]

You are incorrect, however, about the Mind and AI thing. Even modules have a drone level AI (i.e. clearly more intelligent than most humans but not godlike as the Minds) and all actual starships have a Mind by the time of the Culture novels.

Some have several. Larger GSVs have up to three Minds in residence (Remember, GSVs are the "cities" of the Culture, Orbitals and Rocks and the odd planet are hicksville.

You're right, I should have been more specific--I specifically meant the kind of mind that does these sorts of things and has these capabilities. A special circumstances drone or even a reasonably equipped general purpose drone is, as we've seen in Excession, capable of gruesome counterattack capabilities. I don't recall offhand if a normal shuttle (like the ones deployed by Sleeper Service) carry effectors, but that's irrelevent anyway.

I was just using them as an example to highlight to people, who may have lost sight of it, that the force-sub conditions were greatly at fault for the lopsided results, not any kind of wanking of power level. I doubt anyone disputes that it would be an exceedingly easy task to fight them with military weapons, but this wasn't a military force.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, having watched the movie now, some things becomes apparent:

1.) The RDA merc forces are basically Blackwater in space. Given their tactics in the movies and generla atittude (IE assholes) I'm not sure how closely you can use them as a "comparison" for other forces, both in terms of equipment and training/morale. I mean they're basically just fucking thugs and bullies the way they are portrayed in the novel, and they don't seem to be equipped all that well except for purely anti-personnel work (The sole exceptions being the gunships.) But they lacked APCs, tanks, artillery, aerial support was limited at best. Frankly the whole ground battle was superfluous and just more "Hur hur pick on he natives" bullshit that that asshole commander seemed to love.

2.) Eywa's internvetion on Behalf of the Na'Vi relied GREATLY on surprise for its effect. Not only were the RDA forces not equipped for anything other than anti-personnel work, the "When Animals Attack" tactic depended upon a complete lack of air support, combined arms warfare, and generally being able to get so insanely close before being noticed or reacted to that the enemy literally had only seconds to respond. The same applied for aerial forces too.

3.) the Na'vi tactics could have been far better, especially given Sully's involvement. I mean, come on. They had complete surprise, and given Sully's tactics to take out both shuttle and the heavy gunship, they could have taken that thing out easily from the get go (designate specific Na'Vi to assault shuttle AND gunship and toss grenades/handheld bombs into the rotors like he did - we SAW Na'Vi using RDA gear so they're not exactly stupid.) Or maybe Sully could have, you know, tossed one of those RDA gunships INTO the bigger shuttle or heavy gunship - the way he did with the smaller ones.

The tactics they employed with Trudy's gunship was also fairly moronic near as I can see (see above WRT dropping grenades) - I distinctly remember seeing when they actually steal it that it has rocket or missile pods attached - why weren't they used? Even if they just had Na'vi on the side chucking them at the enemy I'd imagine they'd be more effective than those door guns Trudy was using (then again its not like the shuttle or gunship appeared to be moving all that quickly either.)

And then that one warrior dude actually manages to jump INSIDE the shuttle and is starting to chuck troops around like rag dolls up until he gets blasted. How would thing have fared if he'd had other warriors backing his assault (you know, coordinated tactics?) They could quite probably have held the bay if there had been more than just one warrior and if they'd held a choke point - the Na'Vi are strong and agile and have a long reach so CQB favors them heavily unless they get surprised by a gun-wielding enemy.

Of course, the RDA has their share of stupid tactics too (see previously mentioned "superfluous ground battle" to their "terror tactics".)

Now, all that said: If you put any sci fi forces in EXACTLY THE SAME position that the RDA were in (ground and probably air) and ignore any other possible qualities the yhave (EG tanks and such) they're likely to get screwed over royally by Eywa for the same reasons - unless they have rapid fire, anti-tank grade weaponry, nuclear explosives, or whatever. (and I mean something like Posleen verse ACS in the role of AMPs) - most other sci fi forces that could in theory take OUT the "When Animals attack" tactic without heavy weaponry or vehicle support would require time and/or range to wear them down, and in that exact configuration they have niehter. Likewise, range and time apply to any enemy attacked aerially as well, for similar reasons.

I tend to object to that sort of nerfing because it tends to ignore how such forces usually fight (most I know of don't really fight in the way RDA chose to fight, regardless of whether its aliens or not) - if a force like the UNSC has a combined arms doctrine, why aren't they allowed to utilize it if they can?

[Balrog]

1.) The RDA merc forces are basically Blackwater in space. Given their tactics in the movies and generla atittude (IE assholes) I'm not sure how closely you can use them as a "comparison" for other forces, both in terms of equipment and training/morale. I mean they're basically just fucking thugs and bullies the way they are portrayed in the novel, and they don't seem to be equipped all that well except for purely anti-personnel work (The sole exceptions being the gunships.) But they lacked APCs, tanks, artillery, aerial support was limited at best. Frankly the whole ground battle was superfluous and just more "Hur hur pick on he natives" bullshit that that asshole commander seemed to love.

The ground battle I thought was so that they could contain/wipe out the Na'vi forces amassed while the Tree was bombed, preventing them from escaping and, in the off chance the Tree's destruction doesn't completely destroy their fighting spirit, keeps them from reforming and attacking again.

The tactics they employed with Trudy's gunship was also fairly moronic near as I can see (see above WRT dropping grenades) - I distinctly remember seeing when they actually steal it that it has rocket or missile pods attached - why weren't they used?

I'm almost positive there weren't any rocket pods attached to it when they stole it, and even if there were I doubt they would be loaded; leaving live ordinance like that out on the landing strip seems like a bad idea.

I tend to object to that sort of nerfing because it tends to ignore how such forces usually fight (most I know of don't really fight in the way RDA chose to fight, regardless of whether its aliens or not) - if a force like the UNSC has a combined arms doctrine, why aren't they allowed to utilize it if they can?

Because in truth it would be a very short and ultimately pointless debate - what can the Na'vi do against 90mm of tungsten? Tank beats Space Dino, any day of the week (and yes, I did just fit in two Halo references ). It would be an excuse for the milwankers to go on about slaughtering the natives with massed artillery formations and whatnot. However, the UNSC has fought battles without the full use of their military doctrine (there weren't any armored divisions on the first Halo as I recall), and they routinely use heavier weapons than RDA carries (but really, the Stanchion? That's just pushing it). The real discussion point would be if the change in weaponry, tactics and such in the same situation make a difference?


As far as taking a Pelican up and dive-bombing from orbit, recall that the shuttle that they had was similarly capable, and yet they were forced to take it low and slow. Presumably the airspace around the Tree is just too thick with shifting, floating mountains and whatnot. Besides, would the Pelican even be capable of carrying the explosives and releasing them on target?

[Hawkwings]

That pallet sure wasn't 60 tons. I imagine they could rig it to attach to where a scorpion tank would attach, and put another one in the troop bay. As for releasing on target, it's a matter of simple math.

[Sarevok]

They could drop a 60 ton Scorpion tank instead of the pallet. At sufficient speed and altitude that could produce a bigger boom.

[NecronLord]

This is ridiculous. It could be Na'vi vs Imperial Space Marines and Shroom would be 'oh, they wouldn't bother to bring anything bigger than a bolt pistol, despite having plenty of experience on sentient Death Worlds such as Pandora. The suprise dino-rhinos would squash them'. Let me guess, Stormtroopers die too? Clearly the RDA shouldn't have bothered with the Unobtanium, if they'd repurposed these supposed supermegakillbeasts as biological weapons they could push Weyland Yutani's weak little 'xenomorphs' right out of the market.

Maybe Pandora has telepathic powers. Anyone with effective weaponry will leave them behind so they become slaughter for planets bio defenses. Clonetroopers ? They will deploy without armor, no blasters, no LAAT gunships, no walkers or even speederbikes. I mean why would they wear bulletproof armor with sensors and carry droid busting rifles when there is nothing to shoot ? Even though Clonetroopers never deploy without their standard loadout they will make an exception for Pandora. They will actually be walking around without helmets, armor, no blasters and vehicles so they can be killed by native fauna.

These posts were borderline trolling; there's nothing whatsoever to them other than insults and 'comical' exaggeration directed at the other side. I don't want to see that again people.

And Starglider, for the record, with the exception of Exodite worlds (which do not control their wildlife), sapient planets are as rare as mercy in the Warhammer 40,000 setting. There's one in a Last Chancers short story, and that's about it.

I'd like to point out that the Na'Vi were not all that hard to kill. A short rifle burst did them in just fine.

For the record, there's a deleted scene where Tsu'tey survives that, and the fall from the shuttle. He is then cut on by a human while he's injured. Whether this'll make it to the Director's Cut is not known at present.

There is a planet where they turned the surface into a glowing ball of plasma, a few stars they have exploded, the use of half a dozen naquadriah-naquadah bombs on the Asuran's homeworld which produced teraton explosions, etc.

They didn't believe the Asurans to be alive (machines ∴ not alive) even Weir's argument was 'let's not provoke them until we can genocide them all in one go' - it's not like they're going to bomb a group of primitives out of existence for no real reason.

[Grif]

And Starglider, for the record, with the exception of Exodite worlds (which do not control their wildlife), sapient planets are as rare as mercy in the Warhammer 40,000 setting. There's one in a Last Chancers short story, and that's about it.

There's another "sapient" deathworld in Imperial Guards Omnibus. Death World IIRC. With plants that can become toxic over the course of few days and zombies and what-not.

As far as taking a Pelican up and dive-bombing from orbit, recall that the shuttle that they had was similarly capable, and yet they were forced to take it low and slow. Presumably the airspace around the Tree is just too thick with shifting, floating mountains and whatnot. Besides, would the Pelican even be capable of carrying the explosives and releasing them on target?

They could just airlift the explosives like how they did the Scorpion tanks. And there's no reason they can't use more than one Pelicans for the job.

[CBG]

First of all, RDA had pretty fucked up tactics. Instead of using the Valkyrie like one of their choppers (fly low and slow), making it vunerable to the Na'vi flying infantry, they could just make some use of the fact that Valkyrie is a trans-atmospheric craft, and it could fly both higher and faster than any living creature that Pandora could throw at it. If the bomb was guided, droping it from greater altitude would not be a problem, if not, then stukaing it at supersonic speed should be sufficent anyway. It would be like trying to intercept a B-1B with a biplane. Actually, even a properly used XX century B-1B would have done the job better. On the other hand, any other aircraft used the same stupid way as the Valkyrie was used, would be fucked up, unless it is a flying bunker.
Flying high would also solve the flying mountain problem.

Other interesting stuff would be pitting zergs against Pandora.

[Kingmaker]

First of all, RDA had pretty fucked up tactics. Instead of using the Valkyrie like one of their choppers (fly low and slow), making it vunerable to the Na'vi flying infantry, they could just make some use of the fact that Valkyrie is a trans-atmospheric craft, and it could fly both higher and faster than any living creature that Pandora could throw at it. If the bomb was guided, droping it from greater altitude would not be a problem, if not, then stukaing it at supersonic speed should be sufficent anyway. It would be like trying to intercept a B-1B with a biplane. Actually, even a properly used XX century B-1B would have done the job better. On the other hand, any other aircraft used the same stupid way as the Valkyrie was used, would be fucked up, unless it is a flying bunker.

Except that what we saw of the Valkyrie suggests that it is not very agile or fast when manuevering in an atmosphere, it was very large, and the bomb was not guided. Which is not surprising, as the Valkyrie is space shuttle, not a bomber. They
were shoving improvised bombs made from pallets of mining explosives out of back. Their approach probably could have been better, but a slow, low approach was required at some point.

Somehow, I don't think suborbital dive-bombing attacks are in the Valkyrie's mission profile.

[Shroom Man 777]

First of all, RDA had pretty fucked up tactics. Instead of using the Valkyrie like one of their choppers (fly low and slow), making it vunerable to the Na'vi flying infantry, they could just make some use of the fact that Valkyrie is a trans-atmospheric craft, and it could fly both higher and faster than any living creature that Pandora could throw at it. If the bomb was guided, droping it from greater altitude would not be a problem, if not, then stukaing it at supersonic speed should be sufficent anyway. It would be like trying to intercept a B-1B with a biplane. Actually, even a properly used XX century B-1B would have done the job better. On the other hand, any other aircraft used the same stupid way as the Valkyrie was used, would be fucked up, unless it is a flying bunker.
Flying high would also solve the flying mountain problem.

Other interesting stuff would be pitting zergs against Pandora.

1. How can the Valkyrie (the Venture Star) maneuver inside the Flux Vortex? Wouldn't it have to decelerate as it traveled in between the floating mountains in the sky, and the crapload of flying monsters, while the Flux Vortex screwed up its sensors?

2. How can it drop a guided bomb when the Flux Vortex also interfered with the missile systems of the gunships?

3. How can the RDA make a guidance system for a bomb? Everyone keeps on going about it, about how they can jerry-rig some sort of guidance system for an air-dropped weapon or for some orbital weapon, but do they even have the resources to do this? It's not something trivially easy to MacGuyver, and it's not something they can whip up without a period of testing and trial and error.

4. A B-1B would have to maneuver inside the Flux Vortex, where its sensors would've been blinded, forcing it to fly by sight and fly slowly unless it wants to kiss a mountain or fly into a pterodactyl. The Vortex, which screwed up missile guidance systems, might also screw up with the B-1's bombs. And, again, the RDA did not have the time and may not have had the resources to jerry-rig guidance systems for their makeshift bomb.

5. Flying high would not solve the flying mountain problem. The flying mountains were all over the area and would have obscured the target. The Flux Vortex jammed sensors, forcing people to rely on their Mk. 1 Eyeballs to target the Tree of Souls that's under those floating islands, that's also inside the jungle and surrounded by those weirdo ribcage structures. Unless the RDA or the B-1B has some WW2-era optical bomb sights, they cannot target the Tree of Souls without going down low or without carpet bombing the area.


Simply put, flying high and fast at supersonic speeds while dropping an unguided bomb at a target that's surrounded by jamming, and by physical barriers in the form of floating mountains, is going to be very imprecise and inaccurate. If you want to destroy the Tree of Souls in a single bomb run, you are going to have to get up close and personal to do it.

[Starglider]

Simply put, flying high and fast at supersonic speeds while dropping an unguided bomb at a target that's surrounded by jamming, and by physical barriers in the form of floating mountains, is going to be very imprecise and inaccurate. If you want to destroy the Tree of Souls in a single bomb run, you are going to have to get up close and personal to do it.

Or you could just use some of the antimatter fuel being manufactured for the starship engines. PR can sell it as 'an unfortunate accidental loss of containment - procedures have now been tightened up'.