A Borg Cube in Babylon 5

[Rye]

If the 78% is based upon size of vessel and power distribution, then they are one of the most inefficent races ever. Literally they are hauling more then 50% of their vessel as useless mass. They are devoting energy to moving useless mass.

Well, yes - you have to consider that these parts propably include living quarters, storage areas, medical facilities and armor - but yes, still seems like a pretty high number.

It could be for multiple reasons; it could be the aforementioned redundancy, it could be that cubes "split" once they've assimilated enough people and material, much like nomadic and early agrarian societies do, or they could be like bumblebees and go out to collect technology and graft it to their ship to be deposited when they get back to the main hive.

[takemeout_totheblack]

I always had the feeling that Borg Cubes were self sufficient to some degree, the Borg are so pragmatic that it kind of makes sense to build a single massive vessel with an ass load of redundant features and a lot of 'fat' to cut through in case of a fight. Also I figured that they could make their own fuel, its not too outlandish a notion if you think about how huge those ships are and how little of it is devoted to life support, there could be a charge reverser thing in there to make AM out of whatever. As for gathering fuel, well I know it's never shown or mentioned more than three times (Neutral Zone, Q Who, Best of Both Worlds) but the Borg are apparently able to scoop up massive amounts of relatively dense matter (topsoil is a little over a ton/m3 I think) clean off the surface of a Class-M planet, so there's that. It would explain why they would send relatively few ships with little in the way of support craft to stomp an entire civilization, and it would also explain their range and endurance.

I'm running on pure speculation here, if anyone has evidence to support or refute these theories, post it.

Back to OP:
I don't think any Earth Force or League ships could seriously worry a Cube unless in mass quantities firing all at once (not an uncommon strategy), I think the Mimbari could stand up to the Borg for a bit though. Of course the Vorlons or the Shadows would spank the Borg easily with their rape-ships and nano-clouds and bio-wank and other such First One tech, but for the sake of argument let's say they don't get involved and its up to the Younglings and the Mimbari to stop the Borg.
Or how about this...
Hypothetical situation: Shadow's quantum up some Borg to throw at the young races as a part of their 'survival of the fittest' regimen they enforce on the primitives. While this goes down the Shadows then somehow limit Vorlon involvement so that there won't be any Deus Ex Machina on their part. It's up to our heroes at Babylon 5 to shoot the Borg until they die.

Is that a satisfactory hypothetical situation? I feel it opens up enough room for debate on both sides without resorting to 'god races murder stupid zombies lol' to put a damper on things.

[Ghost Rider]

Back to OP:
I don't think any Earth Force or League ships could seriously worry a Cube unless in mass quantities firing all at once (not an uncommon strategy), I think the Mimbari could stand up to the Borg for a bit though. Of course the Vorlons or the Shadows would spank the Borg easily with their rape-ships and nano-clouds and bio-wank and other such First One tech, but for the sake of argument let's say they don't get involved and its up to the Younglings and the Mimbari to stop the Borg.

Which is in direct contention of what we've seen how both Vorlons and Shadows act. They will come at the Borg worse then the other side given the complete unknowns of motivation and relative power comparison. We're talking about two very large angry kids arguing over a toy. They want to be the ones to determine the destinies of the lesser races, they are willing to commit genocide so the other doesn't get the chance. The Borg are in direct contention of this.

Or how about this...
Hypothetical situation: Shadow's quantum up some Borg to throw at the young races as a part of their 'survival of the fittest' regimen they enforce on the primitives. While this goes down the Shadows then somehow limit Vorlon involvement so that there won't be any Deus Ex Machina on their part. It's up to our heroes at Babylon 5 to shoot the Borg until they die.

Is that a satisfactory hypothetical situation? I feel it opens up enough room for debate on both sides without resorting to 'god races murder stupid zombies lol' to put a damper on things.

Bab5 younger races die due to the fact they have limited FTL and far lower firepower. May as well ask what happens if the Executor enters the Federation and it's mission is to take down the Federation and they have all the knowledge they need to attack every major Federation planet.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Oh.
Wait, how powerful are B5 weapons? I remember something about 500mt strategic nuclear weapons and 2mt tactical nukes used to 'claymore' some asteroids at a Mimbari ship. That and a bunch of pew-pew lasers and particle beams and glowy 'pulse' things. If they have triple digit megaton firepower kicking around they shouldn't be too outmatched, what with ST photorps being, what, 20mt if that?

[Ghost Rider]

Oh.
Wait, how powerful are B5 weapons? I remember something about 500mt strategic nuclear weapons and 2mt tactical nukes used to 'claymore' some asteroids at a Mimbari ship. That and a bunch of pew-pew lasers and particle beams and glowy 'pulse' things. If they have triple digit megaton firepower kicking around they shouldn't be too outmatched, what with ST photorps being, what, 20mt if that?

500 MT weapon that were just bombs. No means of propulsion and possibly all explosive as a device with a timer to trigger. The 2 MT weapon was used against the Minbari by the humans and wasn't a direct hit on said ship either.

I can see if there were any notions of triple digit MT weaponry but I believe that was put into heavy doubt.

And while ST warheads are rated around mid-high KT on the low end with 64 MT at the absolute high end(from a dubious uncanonized source to boot). The Borg have displayed that they are able to take more then of those shots.

This also doesn't contend that the Younger races have a far more limited FTL then the Borg. That is a very large factor.

And again, side steps that the OP stated the Borg knew of the technology of the Younger and the Vorlons. Given the sheer difference between the Vorlons and lesser races. The Borg's target will be the Vorlons and through that the Shadows. Both races having far more firepower and speed then the Borg are contended and are contending with.

[Anguirus]

I think that the younger races can still win against the Borg with pure ship-spam, but it will be a bloodbath and whole populations could be lost. I never got the impression that B5 ship-mounted WMDs were inferior to Star Trek's, it's just that they don't have shields so the impact is greater.

Also, if the Borg could be lured near a jumpgate, we've seen a couple of times that those can be turned into MASSIVE bombs.

[Stark]

'Far more limited FTL' that could be amusingly used offensively against the slow, huge Borg.

[takemeout_totheblack]

What are Babylon 5 FTL speeds again? It's been a while since I've watched the show.

[Stark]

It seems to vary pretty widely; things take a long time to get to B5 from Earth, but military forces seem to move much faster.

[adam_grif]

I'm fairly certain a Borg cube can't fit inside Babylon 5. I don't think it's wide enough.

But as others have said, conventional races will get stomped, old races (not necessarily just Shadows/Vorlons) will likely annihilate the cube.

[Stark]

It's likely that the crap construction of a cube and B5's tendency for rapid-fire weapons will cause disproportionate damage.

[Lost Soal]

Minbari on a war footing is hundreds of ships all shooting simultaniously at one target. Even if their individual weapons are slighty less powerfull, the sheer number wll more than make up for it. They also engage at greater distances than the Borg have been shown to be capable of.

Incidently, at the time given for the OP, the Shadows have not woken up yet so their involvement will be limited to their allies, i.e Drakh.

[Darth Wong]

Rather than useless mass it's probably full of redundant power generation systems and such, so you can't damage one half of the ship and expect the other to shut down.
Though I'm no engineer but it seems to me any well designed warship should be like that. Trek ships usually aren't though, coming with "hit this and win" spots (e.g. "target their weapons array").

That's insane. If you have that much excess mass, it would make far more sense to use it for armour and extra defensive systems like heavier and more redundant shield generators. Building a massive ship full of redundant power generators which are used to soak up punishment is just ... well, the concept of actually designing something that way is mind-boggling.

[Simon_Jester]

Excuse me, I'd like to make sure I'm clear on what you mean.

Do you mean that designing a ship with distributed power generation well above its theoretical needs is mind-boggling? Because I really don't understand why it would be, for a warship. For a civilian liner, I can see why you'd go for a centralized power supply even though it's a single point of failure. For something that you seriously expect to get the crap shot out of it, the priorities are a little different.

Or do you mean that a ship which dedicates 78% of its mass to redundant power generation is mind-boggling? Because yes, that's ridiculous. But then, there's no reason to assume that all 78% of the "redundant mass" is power generators. I'm guessing that's why Gramzamber said "power generation systems and such." "And such" would probably include yes, armor and redundant shield generators. And support or repair facilities to help keep the critical 22% in action as long as possible.

[Rye]

What are Babylon 5 FTL speeds again? It's been a while since I've watched the show.

I don't think it's so much the speed that's the issue as much as it is the established practise of opening hyperspace windows within the ships of the enemy. There's also the silly-destructive stuff that happens when they try to open a wormhole within an already open wormhole.

[Darth Wong]

Excuse me, I'd like to make sure I'm clear on what you mean.

Do you mean that designing a ship with distributed power generation well above its theoretical needs is mind-boggling? Because I really don't understand why it would be, for a warship. For a civilian liner, I can see why you'd go for a centralized power supply even though it's a single point of failure. For something that you seriously expect to get the crap shot out of it, the priorities are a little different.

OK, let me spell it out for you: 10 tons of armour will give you far more protection than 10 tons of redundant power generation, because power generation systems are necessarily very delicate compared to armour. Similarly, 10 tons of shield generators will give you far more protection than 10 tons of redundant power generation, because power generation systems are necessarily very delicate compared to shields. So yes, using power generators to soak up punishment is fucking stupid. And finally, there's the fact that a distributed power generation system also necessarily requires extensive fuel distribution facilities; the whole idea results in massively wasted space and material. The resulting vessel will be delicate and volatile, with large chunks of it prone to explosion upon taking any damage.

You would not design a ship that way. Anyone with half a brain would bury the reactors as deep as possible in the ship, instead of putting them everywhere, and (obviously) putting fuel feed lines everywhere as well. The only rational explanation for it is that their ships "grow" in some kind of modular fashion rather than being properly engineered, because it's extraordinarily inefficient. Redundancy is good, but that's in the sense that you would have several well-protected reactors, not this stupid "distributed power generation" system spreading throughout the entire ship and being used to soak up punishment.

Or do you mean that a ship which dedicates 78% of its mass to redundant power generation is mind-boggling? Because yes, that's ridiculous. But then, there's no reason to assume that all 78% of the "redundant mass" is power generators. I'm guessing that's why Gramzamber said "power generation systems and such." "And such" would probably include yes, armor and redundant shield generators. And support or repair facilities to help keep the critical 22% in action as long as possible.

You have not thought this through at all.

[Teleros]

You would not design a ship that way. Anyone with half a brain would bury the reactors as deep as possible in the ship, instead of putting them everywhere, and (obviously) putting fuel feed lines everywhere as well. The only rational explanation for it is that their ships "grow" in some kind of modular fashion rather than being properly engineered, because it's extraordinarily inefficient. Redundancy is good, but that's in the sense that you would have several well-protected reactors, not this stupid "distributed power generation" system spreading throughout the entire ship and being used to soak up punishment.

It would at least make more sense if the power supply was not of the volatile variety, say if it merely tapped something else (subspace?) for energy and doesn't blow up when broken. That way you could put smaller (ie, individually less effective) power generators throughout the ship, which would help when it came to the issue of redundancy and local backups. That's not to say that a centralised power generator wouldn't be almost certainly more efficient in terms of volume & mass (and probably maintenance too), but depending on the particular tech involved a sci-fi civilisation may find it an acceptable trade-off.

This could've worked with the Borg when we first met them, because at the time we knew so little about them. It could've been a big point in an episode that blowing up a reactor on board didn't destroy the whole ship like it would with most Starfleet warp cores.


Getting back to the B5 v Borg issue, I think the best bet the younger races have for defeating the cube is to lure it to a hyperspace gate and blow it up that way, or possibly into a minefield of some of those nice big 500MT nukes G'Kar supplied. The trouble will be whether or not the Borg can warp away from the gate before it explodes, and whether they'll be able to detect the nukes & steer clear of them. Being practically undetectable by B5 standards doesn't necessarily make them hidden from Borg scanners.

[Darth Wong]

It would at least make more sense if the power supply was not of the volatile variety, say if it merely tapped something else (subspace?) for energy and doesn't blow up when broken.

Yeah, that's the Trekkie excuse for everything they do that makes zero engineering sense. "Tap into subspace". Hooray, no more worries about practical issues like fuel feed lines!

[Marcus Aurelius]

Getting back to the B5 v Borg issue, I think the best bet the younger races have for defeating the cube is to lure it to a hyperspace gate and blow it up that way, or possibly into a minefield of some of those nice big 500MT nukes G'Kar supplied. The trouble will be whether or not the Borg can warp away from the gate before it explodes, and whether they'll be able to detect the nukes & steer clear of them. Being practically undetectable by B5 standards doesn't necessarily make them hidden from Borg scanners.

Or they could just use ship spam. The major powers in B5 have somewhat larger space fleets than a typical Alpha quadrant power, so let's say a combined Narn, EF and Non-Aligned World fleet could easily be several hundred ships, even if we assume that the Minbari and the Centauri would not co-operate with the rest. Of course assembling such a fleet would not be easy from a logistical or political point of view, but on the other hand the Borg present a much more overt, clear and present danger than the much more subtle Shadows. It's pretty clear that you can't negotiate with the Borg, which makes forming Alliances against them much easier. Furthermore, we already know that concentrating fire power is not a foreign concept for B5 space fleets; the Narn cruiser captains did it on their own initiative against the Shadows, although it did not help them much in the end.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Since this versus does include the Vorlons/Shadow, it renders that particular part mute. We know they have some want to keep the younger races alive until THEIR Ragnarok. And given the Borg Cube can and would disrupt large portions of that plan, they will go after this with more the usual interference. The Shadows and Vorlons have demonstrated firepower in excess of the Federation/Klingons and other races and shown to have greater numbers. So in this scenario the Borg are going to fight against a superior foe after they screw around with the inferior and no way of making the odds better in their favor.

What episodes have demonstrated firepower greater than Federation/Klingon figures, or are you thinking of their planet killers?

[Ghost Rider]

Since this versus does include the Vorlons/Shadow, it renders that particular part mute. We know they have some want to keep the younger races alive until THEIR Ragnarok. And given the Borg Cube can and would disrupt large portions of that plan, they will go after this with more the usual interference. The Shadows and Vorlons have demonstrated firepower in excess of the Federation/Klingons and other races and shown to have greater numbers. So in this scenario the Borg are going to fight against a superior foe after they screw around with the inferior and no way of making the odds better in their favor.

What episodes have demonstrated firepower greater than Federation/Klingon figures, or are you thinking of their planet killers?

Not just the Planet killers, which are in deep excess and not the best weapons to throw at a ship. I'll have to dig up but I remember the thought that their cutting beam figures is a greater output then phasers. And no, not using Adarx and such not

[Teleros]

From BabTech on the Net:

-Vorlon light cruisers have a firepower in the 40 petawatt range (9.56 MT).
-50PJ (~12 MT) was enough to defeat & "mutilate" but not vaporise a Shadow warship.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Not just the Planet killers, which are in deep excess and not the best weapons to throw at a ship. I'll have to dig up but I remember the thought that their cutting beam figures is a greater output then phasers. And no, not using Adarx and such not

If the Borg had any sense of self preservation and simple tactics then I'd agree that a planet killer isn't the best thing to throw at a cube. However, going by established canon the cube will likely fight to the death against whatever is thrown at it. Might as well be a planet killer which would have the best chance of killing a cube without suffering losses.

You are correct that their cutting beam has a much greater output than phasers, and for every second they deal about the same damage as mid range photon calculations.

I'm going off the figures calculated on this website Babtech <--- OT; I'm happy to see that this site is being maintained even after all these years.

The upper offensive beam output for a Shadow warship is 544Kt/s. Which is much greater than phasers, but equal to mid range calculations for photon torpedoes if one second dwell on target = one torpedo. Upper defensive limit for a shadow warship is 60 megatons delivered in a split second.

Since it seems Shadow warships can pretty much turn on this beam and keep it going for several seconds this would make a Shadow vessel a serious threat to even the most advanced Federation starships, however, the difference isn't so great to mean that a Sovereign couldn't destroy a Shadow warship on its own. This is especially true if upper firepower/defensive figures for UFP vessels are used.

[Simon_Jester]

Where do our best "kilotons per second" type figures come from for phasers? That shot in Wrath of Khan that digs a nice, measurable trench out of Enterprise? Or something else?

[DrStrangelove]

Where do our best "kilotons per second" type figures come from for phasers? That shot in Wrath of Khan that digs a nice, measurable trench out of Enterprise? Or something else?

Phaserizing a largish comet in TNG, and calcs based off loose interpretation of some of the drilling into planets also from TNG. Starfleet Jedi is full of such nonsense.