SGU 119, Subversion (Spoilers)

[Alyeska]

Another idea I've talked about with Chris O'Farrell.

Earth cannot currently make new Asgard beam weapons. The Asgard install many of these weapons on the Odyssey. The SGC strips a number of them off and places them on their other 304s. Not enough remain for Hammond at this time.

Or a related concept. The Asgard beam weapons are resource intensive. Duplication is not easy. The Hammond was ready before the Beams were. This fits with what has been suggested. Its also what happened with the Odyssey. Its very first mission was before it was fully ready for combat.

[adam_grif]

found a cache of Furling Hyper-Armaments,

That would be the greatest thing ever.

The pertinent fact is that the Lucians now field small flotillas of ha'taks capable of going toe to to with 304s. The how is, as yet, unknown.

I wonder how many ships they have total? Earth has like a half dozen 304's now iirc.

[Chris OFarrell]

Malozzi is full of shit. Even if it was salvaged Ori tech, I don't recall the Ori doing great against Asgard doom beams either.

Correction. Great against Asgard beams backed by a ZPM. There's no reason to think a standard 304 with Asgard beams could destroy an Ori ship nearly as easily (IE, before it was destroyed) remember, without time-fuckery, Odyssey couldn't take three at once, and it has a ZPM. For all we know, Daedalus or Apollo would be broken in half by a toilet ship still.

The Odyssey in 'Arc of Truth' took what, 4 Ori Toilets blasting in sequence one after the other for QUITE some time without shield failure. Yes that was also with the ZPM, but it shows that its performance in 'Unending' was probably down to several factors, possibly including still incomplete installs of the Asgard technology or a lack of time for Carter to become familiar with them, or the planet blowing up really doing a number on the ships defenses. I also have a working theory that the Plasma beams and shields installed on the Odyssey NEED the ZPM to power them at full strength, as the 304's just can't fit a full size Asgard powerplant.

There are some hints suggesting that the Daedalus and Apollo (and Phoenix in the ATL) had to power up and down key systems to charge the beam cannons, and they had to wait some time to recharge them between firing.

More likely though, Malozzi is just full of shit.

Seriously, the man has LONG stopped giving a damn about continunity except in the most general sense, its a FAR cry from the earlier days of SG1, the last season of Atlantis was bad enough, but its rather clear they DON'T want to talk about things in the Milkey Way in 'Universe', or are more then willing to handwave and reset the situations as needed. Hence the complete lack of talk of Atlantis and its ZPM's, of the Ori supergate technology/hyperdrive technology, of bringing Carter, Daniel, McKay, Zelenca or anyone else in on the body exchanges...

I mean even IF we accept the absurd idea that the Lucian allience was able to upgrade Ha'Taks to be far more powerful warships (not that they appeared to really bug the Hammond that much) then we would ask again why in the heck would they be so desperate to get their hands on Destiny if they have abilities like that?

The episode wasn't bad, but the Lucian Allience as the 'Big Bad', expanding out across the Galaxy and a bunch of gangsters somehow turning into fully fledged Governments? Pft.

I mean it would have been way more cool to have them as the 'FARC' of the Galaxy. Hidden bases, very limited resources compared to the major powers starting to expand out like Earth, but damn near impossible to root out, dealing drugs, scavanging tech and ships all over the place, worming their way into positions of influence on certian planets in exchange for 'protection' from rivial groups...

And it would have been WAY more cool for their 'Scientist' to be one of the Ba'al clones, the Allience managing to capture one (perhaps the one from 'Off the Grid?') and remove his subspace tracker, so the Tok'ra thought he was dead. And so they are using him for their own advancement...and thanks to Ba'al knowing the TRUE secret of Destiny from Anubis, the Lucian Allience (or at least this faction) is desperate to get their hands on the ship, but 'we' still don't find it out what 'it' is yet.

[Gramzamber]

Personally I would've preferred something like the Aschen finally getting out of their little gate rut and challenging humanity instead of these goddamn pirates pretending to be a government.

[Bilbo]

Personally I would've preferred something like the Aschen finally getting out of their little gate rut and challenging humanity instead of these goddamn pirates pretending to be a government.

Not possible. The possible future episode demonstrated that the Aschen are just too powerful to have as a foe. You would have to run them as dumb as the Ori to give the SGC any chance of sucess against them.

[Gramzamber]

Personally I would've preferred something like the Aschen finally getting out of their little gate rut and challenging humanity instead of these goddamn pirates pretending to be a government.

Not possible. The possible future episode demonstrated that the Aschen are just too powerful to have as a foe. You would have to run them as dumb as the Ori to give the SGC any chance of sucess against them.

See I never got that idea.
If they're so overwhelmingly powerful, why come up with such a convoluted and ass-backwards way to conquer Earth?
Hell in the alternate future the main reason the Aschen couldn't be defeated is that they basically owned Earth and most of it's militaries had been demobilized. Their only demonstrated threat is their bioweapons, and you could explain that away by saying that the Aschen have a new leadership that doesn't want outright genocide.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I believe the Lucien Alliance captured multiple Goa'uld shipyards, which is one of the reasons they're so powerful now.

[CaptJodan]

Not possible. The possible future episode demonstrated that the Aschen are just too powerful to have as a foe. You would have to run them as dumb as the Ori to give the SGC any chance of sucess against them.

What, exactly, gives you the impression that they are so powerful as to be practically untouchable by Earth? We know they had a power capable of defeating the then un-Ancient-shield-enhanced Hataks, but that's about the extent of our knowledge about them. We get really no indication on what kind of shields they have, or ships, or weapons other than that they could protect Earth against the Goa'uld, and at the time. These were not the Goa'uld of Anubis' era.

The Ashen's plans for conquest generally relied on their superior biological technologies rather than their ships. In fact, when asked what kind of technologies they had that would help keep Earth safe in 2001, Mellon talked about a biological weapon, not ships and shields and beamy pew pews. You could say that they wouldn't give their best tech to Earth because they were conquering them, but since we never see anything resembling a warship from the Aschen, I don't see where this assumption is coming from.

[Bilbo]

Not possible. The possible future episode demonstrated that the Aschen are just too powerful to have as a foe. You would have to run them as dumb as the Ori to give the SGC any chance of sucess against them.

What, exactly, gives you the impression that they are so powerful as to be practically untouchable by Earth? We know they had a power capable of defeating the then un-Ancient-shield-enhanced Hataks, but that's about the extent of our knowledge about them. We get really no indication on what kind of shields they have, or ships, or weapons other than that they could protect Earth against the Goa'uld, and at the time. These were not the Goa'uld of Anubis' era.

The Ashen's plans for conquest generally relied on their superior biological technologies rather than their ships. In fact, when asked what kind of technologies they had that would help keep Earth safe in 2001, Mellon talked about a biological weapon, not ships and shields and beamy pew pews. You could say that they wouldn't give their best tech to Earth because they were conquering them, but since we never see anything resembling a warship from the Aschen, I don't see where this assumption is coming from.

In the Aschen future they said that they created a plague that wiped out the Goauld, a race strong enough to heal the disease that wiped out the Ancients. How do you beat that?

The Ori could have easily conquered the Milky Way if they had gone full tilt form day one with their plague. Dump it on every planet they find immediatly and it would be game over. Even of the Ancient allow Orlan to come down and save the day it wouldnt matter. You still needed Garrick to get turned by Teal'c.

The Aschen could do the same. All the Aschen need is to know where the Earth is and access to multiple hyperspace ships. Considering that one can fairly easily it seems purchase cloaking Goauld cargo ships how does the Earth defend against an enemy well versed in biological warfare? Earth cannot keep stealthed ships from coming and going at will, we see that all the time.

So much like the Ori we would need the Aschen to be crippled by stupid for the SGC to win.

[CaptJodan]

In the Aschen future they said that they created a plague that wiped out the Goauld, a race strong enough to heal the disease that wiped out the Ancients. How do you beat that?

Apparently, with an iris.

The Aschen could do the same. All the Aschen need is to know where the Earth is and access to multiple hyperspace ships. Considering that one can fairly easily it seems purchase cloaking Goauld cargo ships how does the Earth defend against an enemy well versed in biological warfare? Earth cannot keep stealthed ships from coming and going at will, we see that all the time.

Because it's not their MO. Unless you want to change the Aschen COMPLETELY from what they've been portrayed as thus far.

Let's face it, there's plenty of left over shit out there from the Goa'uld, yet the Aschen tend not to leave their own world or go far from their own positions of power. It's not in their MO to start collecting the trinkets like everyone else has. Their entire method of conquering other races is far slower and more measured than others. They're not explorers, they're not well versed in the gate system, they don't go off-world often.

So much like the Ori we would need the Aschen to be crippled by stupid for the SGC to win.

No, it's more of a MAD situation. Virus' take time to work, and not everyone is going to be exposed 100% right off the bat. Even the Ori plague didn't work that way. Earth could mount a counter-strike if it chose to with a few Horizon equipped 304s, and that would really fuck up the Aschen's day.

All we've ever seen from the Aschen is that they prey on weaker races/humans. We have no idea how they supposedly wiped out the Goa'uld, but we can infer that they used the knowledge gained by Earth's Stargate program to do so, because the addresses they gained to send their viruses. Prior to that, they seemed to have little knowledge of how vast the gate system was or how many different species were out there. Without that knowledge, their striking ability is limited.

As an aside, and I know this is a terribly Shep thing to say, but knowing the Aschen's MO and knowing that they're probably still out there preying on other worlds, Earth has an interest in going there with a 304/cargo ship/something and, if they see that they're still up to their old tricks, nuking them (assuming they didn't swallow themselves up in a black hole through the gate). Eventually they may become a threat again, and they probably didn't stop what they were doing to others after Earth.

[adam_grif]

The Aschen were mentioned as being "at least 100 years ahead of us". That's unquantifiable for obvious reasons, but I hardly think that they would be on par with something like the Asgard, nor have ships that could stand up to the upgunned 304s.

[NecronLord]

There's a season ten SG1 scriptment that had the Aschen attack earth in one possible future. They just moved into orbit and dropped some bioweapon into (somehow) Cheyanne Mountain. That's certainly what the writers thought they were capable of. Asgard beam guns weren't mentioned, though, and may pose a greater challenge.

[Bilbo]

Let's face it, there's plenty of left over shit out there from the Goa'uld, yet the Aschen tend not to leave their own world or go far from their own positions of power. It's not in their MO to start collecting the trinkets like everyone else has. Their entire method of conquering other races is far slower and more measured than others. They're not explorers, they're not well versed in the gate system, they don't go off-world often.

They had a gate but no reference to use it well. They had access to a few worlds that they had guessed the gate addresses to but that was by nothing more than random chance of punching codes into a DHD.

As for taking stuff from the Goauld. How do they do that? Do the Aschen even have interstellar drive capacity for their ships?

Finally there was the fact that the Aschen had been given a list of stargate addresses that started with the black hole address and got worse from there as O'Neil put it. Who knows how much damage that did to their homeworld.

So to make them a threat you would have to give them greater use of the gate, interstellar drive technology, and explain how they survived the whole black hole experience.

[Bilbo]

The Aschen were mentioned as being "at least 100 years ahead of us". That's unquantifiable for obvious reasons, but I hardly think that they would be on par with something like the Asgard, nor have ships that could stand up to the upgunned 304s.

How many 304's would Earth need to defend itself and every planet it visits to make sure the Aschen cannot make virus bomb runs?

Also how would you even know you were under attack? Based on their normal methods the Aschen would probably drop some sort of sterility virus onto the planet that will slowly take months or years to infect and sterlize Earth's population. By the time years later that the attack was discovered most of the female population might already be sterile. Then the Aschen just sit back and wait the requisite number of decades for our population to start its massive die off.

[adam_grif]

Also how would you even know you were under attack? Based on their normal methods the Aschen would probably drop some sort of sterility virus onto the planet that will slowly take months or years to infect and sterlize Earth's population. By the time years later that the attack was discovered most of the female population might already be sterile. Then the Aschen just sit back and wait the requisite number of decades for our population to start its massive die off.

Their sterility thing was some sort of chemical weapon, not a viral attack. They also have to then just kind of hope that nothing in the Asgard database can cure it, the Sarcophagus can't cure it, it doesn't get noticed before it's infected 99% of the population, and that when it does get noticed, they don't decide to respond with gunboat diplomacy in the form of give us the cure right now or we'll destroy your civilization.

Do the Aschen even have hyperdrives?

[Bilbo]

Also how would you even know you were under attack? Based on their normal methods the Aschen would probably drop some sort of sterility virus onto the planet that will slowly take months or years to infect and sterlize Earth's population. By the time years later that the attack was discovered most of the female population might already be sterile. Then the Aschen just sit back and wait the requisite number of decades for our population to start its massive die off.

Their sterility thing was some sort of chemical weapon, not a viral attack. They also have to then just kind of hope that nothing in the Asgard database can cure it, the Sarcophagus can't cure it, it doesn't get noticed before it's infected 99% of the population, and that when it does get noticed, they don't decide to respond with gunboat diplomacy in the form of give us the cure right now or we'll destroy your civilization.

Do the Aschen even have hyperdrives?

Its not known if they have hyperdrive. Since they can only travel to the few worlds they figured out gate addresses to I would expect that they do not.

[Gramzamber]

Again you could, if reintroducing the Aschen as the main threat, say that having expanded into the galaxy they're not interested in genociding every single world they come across, and they can't do it to Earth because, you know, 304s with death rays and all.

[CaptJodan]

They had a gate but no reference to use it well. They had access to a few worlds that they had guessed the gate addresses to but that was by nothing more than random chance of punching codes into a DHD.

That's basically what I'm saying. Given their limited scope, they don't likely have access to Goa'uld tech. Presumably before they met SG-1, they didn't even know of the Goa'uld's existence.

As for taking stuff from the Goauld. How do they do that? Do the Aschen even have interstellar drive capacity for their ships?

Again, you're arguing on my side all of a sudden here. How are they going to bomb Earth with bio weapons from orbit if they don't have interstellar ships. You said they probably don't have hyperdrive capable ships, you say they can steal some Goa'uld leftovers, but then you're making my point, which is that they have been to limited places and probably wouldn't have access to goa'uld tech. Make up your mind.

Finally there was the fact that the Aschen had been given a list of stargate addresses that started with the black hole address and got worse from there as O'Neil put it. Who knows how much damage that did to their homeworld.

Assuming they dialed it. If they had any brains whatsoever, they'd consider the possibility that Earth might have given them shit addresses and not dialed them. But given how desperate they were for addresses, it wouldn't surprise me that they dialed it.

So to make them a threat you would have to give them greater use of the gate, interstellar drive technology, and explain how they survived the whole black hole experience.

Which is basically what I said. You'd need to change their whole MO and how they operated. You claimed they were unstoppable in their current configuration, not this hypothetical Aschen society where they get all these toys. You'd have to make them smart and capable before you dumbed them down again (as you claim would have to be done in order for Earth to win).

Another aside: I've always imagined that the Grace ship could have been an Aschen warship. I know it canonly isn't, but it would have given the Aschen respectable space capability along with their other toys and would actually make for a more interesting debate here. It'd also explain the attack.
"Hey we're from Earth, and we come in peace."
"Oh, these fuckers again. They black-holed our homeworld. Time to die! But they don't need to know it's us, just incase they get out of it."

[Gramzamber]

How do we know O'Neill was even being serious about the black hole?
Whatever the crimes of the Aschen regime, that'd still be tantamount to genocide against millions of innocent people. Besides, it "gets worse from there"? How do you possibly get worse than a black hole in your face?

By the way they dialed to that same black hole in the Atlantis/SG-1 crossover episode didn't they? That means the connection is clear, so even if they dialed it they haven't anymore.

[CaptJodan]

Whatever the crimes of the Aschen regime, that'd still be tantamount to genocide against millions of innocent people.

You could say something similar about the Asurans. Yes, they were replicators instead of flesh and blood, but they did have a more peaceful faction in their midst, and who knows how many of those might have died when Earth decided first to nuke them, then later to outright blow up their planet.

The Aschen as we've seen them have shown no desire for negotiation or compromise. They go right to total war, using biological weapons of various types on their enemies, and even most of their friends. Ideally, Earth would drop a few special forces or intelligence gathering people down on the Aschen homeworld to see what the real political situation is and see if you can destabilize it from within. Barring that, though, the threat of the Aschen is pretty damned high given their MO...worse than the Goa'uld in many respects. If the populace is generally supportive of the government's actions, the Shep solution would have to be considered.

By the way they dialed to that same black hole in the Atlantis/SG-1 crossover episode didn't they? That means the connection is clear, so even if they dialed it they haven't anymore.

Different black hole. They dialed a black hole in the Pegasus galaxy.

[stormthebeaches]

So to make them a threat you would have to give them greater use of the gate, interstellar drive technology, and explain how they survived the whole black hole experience.

The Aschen rule a confederation of planets. They must have interstellar drive technology in order to run the confederation effectively. As for surviving the black hole, they could have evacuated a sizeable portion of their population to another world in their confederation (most of the worlds are backward farmworlds that feed the Aschen homeworld).

[Gramzamber]

You could say something similar about the Asurans. Yes, they were replicators instead of flesh and blood, but they did have a more peaceful faction in their midst, and who knows how many of those might have died when Earth decided first to nuke them, then later to outright blow up their planet.

True, but then Stargate has always had a "hurf hurf they're just machines" vibe running through it even with the occassional sympathetic machine character (who are usually copies of the main cast and killed off anyway).

The Aschen as we've seen them have shown no desire for negotiation or compromise. They go right to total war, using biological weapons of various types on their enemies, and even most of their friends. Ideally, Earth would drop a few special forces or intelligence gathering people down on the Aschen homeworld to see what the real political situation is and see if you can destabilize it from within. Barring that, though, the threat of the Aschen is pretty damned high given their MO...worse than the Goa'uld in many respects. If the populace is generally supportive of the government's actions, the Shep solution would have to be considered.

That kind of thinking would also justify sending naquada bombs to Chulak and every other Jaffa world during the height of the Goa'uld threat though.

Different black hole. They dialed a black hole in the Pegasus galaxy.

Ah yeah, I was wrong. Could've sworn they dialed the black hole gate some time after the Aschen thing.

The Aschen rule a confederation of planets. They must have interstellar drive technology in order to run the confederation effectively. As for surviving the black hole, they could have evacuated a sizeable portion of their population to another world in their confederation (most of the worlds are backward farmworlds that feed the Aschen homeworld).

Not really. The Genii were also at the head of a "confederation" with nothing but stargates and 1930's level technology.

[stormthebeaches]

Not really. The Genii were also at the head of a "confederation" with nothing but stargates and 1930's level technology.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Aschen maintaining their "confederation" before they found the Stargate? And even if they only maintained the confederation through the Stargate, it doesn't mean that they lack interstellar drive technology.

[NecronLord]

Its not known if they have hyperdrive. Since they can only travel to the few worlds they figured out gate addresses to I would expect that they do not.

Wrong.

DANNY
That’s a good question. They have ships,
but they only use them to travel to
the planets within the confederation.

HAMMOND
Of which the Volien system is apart.

DANNY
Right. Uh ... Borren said that both the Ashen and Volien gates were discovered buried like ours was, and no DHD was ever recovered.

They got there by hyperspace (or FTL? It's likely, having no goa'uld contact, they developed their own technology after all)

Mmm. The producers seem to think that an Aschen fleet could show up and defeat Earth in minutes. That doesn't clash with their power level as presented in the other episodes (defeat the goa'uld - and yes, an actual war was mentioned as well as just bio-bombing) at all.

[NecronLord]

The Aschen as we've seen them have shown no desire for negotiation or compromise.

Wait, what? They're meant to be enormously big on that, to the point that they're parodies of bureaucrats and diplomats. They would far prefer to negotiate than fight. They simply have a tendency to want to limit their subjects' population levels. Bastards, yes, but that's no reason to think they can't be negotiated with at all, so long as you're not foolish enough to subject yourself to them.

They go right to total war, using biological weapons of various types on their enemies, and even most of their friends. Ideally, Earth would drop a few special forces or intelligence gathering people down on the Aschen homeworld to see what the real political situation is and see if you can destabilize it from within. Barring that, though, the threat of the Aschen is pretty damned high given their MO...worse than the Goa'uld in many respects. If the populace is generally supportive of the government's actions, the Shep solution would have to be considered.

The Shep solution would likely be really fucking stupid. These people aren't just a threat, they're an intelligent and proficient technical threat. Avoidance is rather better than starting a total war. Of course, they've already destroyed Aschen, so the rest of the Confederation probably wants total war when they find out where Earth is anyway.