Why weren't the Primarchs destroyed? (WH40K)

[Bob the Gunslinger]

You may be thinking about the Blood Ravens, who speak of a 'unknown Primarch' on occasion and... it actually hasn't been said outright where they come from, but many think they've got Thousand Sons ancestry, given their large numbers of Librarians. I'm not sure about the Raven Guard, but as current GW canon stands, the Raven Guard are First Founding, and there are only two Unknown Primarchs/Legions.

The book A Thousand Sons has some passages that all but scream "The Blood Ravens are descended from The Thousand Sons." Besides all of the corvus imagery, we find out that Magnus sent the fleet (with some Thousand Sons aboard) off with secret orders before the battle, and a couple of psykers make statements about "A Raven of Blood" which is "seeking understanding and redemption." I think that's about as clear-cut an answer as we are ever going to get.

In an old short story, Hell in a Bottle, there is a mention of the Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts chapter of space marines. When the story was reprinted later, GW changed Rubinek to a Chapter Master. Make of that what you will.

[Ghost Rider]

In an old short story, Hell in a Bottle, there is a mention of the Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts chapter of space marines. When the story was reprinted later, GW changed Rubinek to a Chapter Master. Make of that what you will.

They enjoying rewriting...a lot.

Think of the man who stood before Horus that convinced the Emperor to go all out. First it was the greatest normal human soldier, then Space marine, then Super Special Custodes.

Really, they do tend to have some rather interesting changes. I'm amazed more times then not at what remains the same through the editions.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I'm really hoping that the Horus Heresy novels will bring back the character of Ollanius Pious, or whatever his name is. Isn't he still the patron saint of the Imperial Guard?

[andrewgpaul]

Why are people so obsessed with him? IIRC, he got one mention in the entirety of the 40K canon, and that was only his head appearing on an Imperial Guard banner.

When Bill King wrote the Emperor vs Horus short story, it had to change because the fluff at that point stated that humans could only survive teleportation while wearing Terminator Armour - hence the Imperial Fist Terminator.

I can buy Ollanius Pious being a corruption of the facts over 100 centuries; Adeptus Custodes -> Emperor's bodyguard -> Emperor's Guard -> Imperial Guard. After all, the only surviving eyewitness has been in a coma for 10,000 years.

[Imperial Overlord]

When Bill King wrote the Emperor vs Horus short story, it had to change because the fluff at that point stated that humans could only survive teleportation while wearing Terminator Armour - hence the Imperial Fist Terminator.

Actually it didn't. At that point, teleportation was merely dangerous, less so if you had a teleport homer. Teleport homers came standard with Terminator Armour. Terminators were, at that point, the only part of any formal army lists that existed at the time that could teleport but it was never Terminator exclusive in the fluff.

[white_rabbit]

In the context of heavy orkish use of teleportation, from background of a similar age, it did refer to the technology as "nerve shredding" and not suitable for the use of your average human bloke unless well armoured.

[andrewgpaul]

Yes, you're right; I misremembered the line from the Shokk Attack Gun rules; "Even with heavy shielding and complex suppression systems, a human or Eldar can only withstand low levels of exposure. However Orks [...] can walk safely into and out of teleporter beams which would tear the nervous system of a human into shreds." I've obviously got confused, sorry.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I always thought the Lost Primarchs where a useful "get out clause" for gamers. Is you chapter absurdly different to the rest? they came from XI Legion.

Although, in the backstory for my guys, the Hellrazers, Primarch XI was Elijah, and he and his men have been trapped in a dense star cluster by heavy warp storms for ten thousand years. Waiting, watching, growing stronger...

Wasn't there a scene in one book where Rogal Dorn IIRC is walking through a hall with the statues of the Primarchs, and asks Malcador the Sigilant about them. And Malcador says something like "they are forgotten, lost, a mistake, don't ask about them" kind of thing?

[Bedlam]

Wasn't there a scene in one book where Rogal Dorn IIRC is walking through a hall with the statues of the Primarchs, and asks Malcador the Sigilant about them. And Malcador says something like "they are forgotten, lost, a mistake, don't ask about them" kind of thing?

I think thats from the Audio the lightning tower, it does suggest that even the other primarchs dont know what happened to their brothers so either the Emperor really hushed it up or it occured before the primarchs were scatter or found again. An anticlimactic answer might be that they failed during the early stages of creation and died or were destroyed.

[Black Admiral]

Wasn't there a scene in one book where Rogal Dorn IIRC is walking through a hall with the statues of the Primarchs, and asks Malcador the Sigilant about them. And Malcador says something like "they are forgotten, lost, a mistake, don't ask about them" kind of thing?

Not quite, if this is the scene you're thinking of;

"Then we are alone."

"No," said Malcador. "Not alone. never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us, but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others."

"Would that it were fifteen," mused Dorn.

"Do not even think it, my friend," warned Malcador. "They are lost to us, for ever."
- Mechanicum, pg. 329

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah, just went and looked it up. Mechanicum, although the hall of statues and empty plinths is seen (or heard) in "Lightening Tower"

On a related note for Primarchs, how many loyalist ones are confirmed KIA? I know a couple are MIA, but how many are confirmed as killed?

[Black Admiral]

Yeah, just went and looked it up. Mechanicum, although the hall of statues and empty plinths is seen (or heard) in "Lightening Tower"

On a related note for Primarchs, how many loyalist ones are confirmed KIA? I know a couple are MIA, but how many are confirmed as killed?

I think Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius are the only ones we actually know are dead - the rest are all missing or only implied to be dead, not stated (and there's room for them to be alive).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah, from what I remember Gulliman is in stasis, and supposedly healing. I think Jaghati Khan or whatever the White Scars name is and Leman Russ went hunting in the Eye of Terror, presumably to go after Pertuarabo and the surviving traitors

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, from what I remember Gulliman is in stasis, and supposedly healing. I think Jaghati Khan or whatever the White Scars name is and Leman Russ went hunting in the Eye of Terror, presumably to go after Pertuarabo and the surviving traitors

Lion Jonson's big schtick is he's in the darkest most secretest part of their fortress waiting for whatever and the Salamanders is really MIA more so then the others because GW hasn't said diddly squat.

The others are as you pointed out and just floating for whatever supposed final battle, much like the Eldar.

[Bedlam]

What I can remember about the current status of the Primarchs

Lion El'Jonson = Sleeping at the centre of the Rock
Fulgrim = Demon
Perturabo = Demon
Konrad Curze/Night Haunter = Killed by an assassin (probably)
Angron = Demon
Mortarion = Demon
Magnus the Red = Demon
Horus = Killed by the Emperor
Lorgar = Demon
Alpharius/Omegon = Demon? (I think I heard one of them was killed?)
Jaghatai Khan = I dont know, missing?
Leman Russ = Left for the eye of terror
Rogal Dorn = Missing presumed dead (his hands were left behind for some reason)
Sanguinius = Killed by Horus
Ferrus Manus = Killed in the Horus Heresy
Roboute Guilliman = In stasis (getting better?)
Vulkan = Killed in the Horus Heresy
Corax = I dont know, missing?

[Black Admiral]

Alpharius/Omegon = Demon? (I think I heard one of them was killed?)

Yes, Guilliman kicked eleven kinds of hell out of one of them - identified as Alpharius, but that was written before the whole Alpharius/Omegon thing turned up.

Jaghatai Khan = I dont know, missing?

Ran off somewhere, yes.

Vulkan = Killed in the Horus Heresy

When was this stated? (the Salamanders at least think he's still out there somewhere)

Corax = I dont know, missing?

Like Khan and Russ, he buggered off somewhere, yes.

[Stravo]

A piece I read on Jughati Khan says he is lost somewhere in the webway chasing down Dark Eldar. I'm a little confused as to why the fates of certain Primarchs is so sketchy especially after the Horus Heresy. With the Emperor gone at the end of the Heresy wouldn't the Primarchs be the natural heirs to the throne? Why would you let them still go off into battle or frankly why didn't one of them (most likley Guilliman) just ascend to stewardship of the Empire? It seems a little silly to see the last heirs to the Emperor's legacy running around placing themselves in danger or even just 'disappearing'. All this fuzziness surrounding some of their final fates seems a little hard to believe in light of the symbol they represented to a fractured Imperium desperately in need of leadership especially from a group that could claim a direct link to the Emperor.

Then again, it has been 10,000 years and a lot can be lost or rewritten.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Guilliman did take on a more administrative role after the Heresy; he re-organized the Imperial military, the Space Marines, and wrote the Codex Astartes. At some point he was mortally wounded (doing what, I don't know) and was placed in stasis.

Leman Russ is a loose cannon, so it makes sense that he'd run off on some mad quest for vengeance. There's never been much information on Vulkan and the Salamanders, so it's anyone's guess what's going on there, and I'm not sure about Corax.

[Bedlam]

Ferrus Manus = Killed in the Horus Heresy
Vulkan = Killed in the Horus Heresy
Corax = I dont know, missing?

My understanding was that these three were suposed to have been killed in the Istvanne battle, I know it was later stated that Corax had survived (retcon?) I hadn't heard anything about Vulkan had also survived but I wouldn't put it beyond Canon.

[Cykeisme]

While the remaining loyalist Primarchs were aware of their importance as the natural heirs to power who would be valuable in administrating the recovering Imperium, they were also aware of their duty to defend it, including seeking out and destroying the greatest threats.
Of course, some of them were zany warrior types who much preferred the threat-destroying part as opposed to the administrative-heir part.

Guilliman did take on a more administrative role after the Heresy; he re-organized the Imperial military, the Space Marines, and wrote the Codex Astartes. At some point he was mortally wounded (doing what, I don't know) and was placed in stasis.

He was mortally wounded by Fulgrim after hunting down the traitor Primarch and his entourage of Emperor's Children.
He was really pulling his weight doing both aforementioned duties, though the latter got him quasi-killed.


Regarding the topic of the OP three pages back, I would assume that the Chaos Gods' inability to destroy the Primarchs (merely scattering them) goes hand-in-hand with the fact that the Primarchs all landed on human inhabited worlds. Were their placement random, the odds of them even landing on planets of any sort are astronomically low, much less all landing on human colonized planets.
Even as infants, they must have had some sort of powers of their own, or the Emperor was able to influence events just enough to save them.

[Eternal_Freedom]

IIRC, Ferrus Manus, Vulkan and Corax and their legions where the first wave tht got minced at Istvaan V by the four traitor legions of the second wave. Ferrus got decapitated by Fulgrim, no idea about the other two.

Fulgrim seems to have a pretty good record against his brother primarchs. Bastard

[Black Admiral]

IIRC, Ferrus Manus, Vulkan and Corax and their legions where the first wave tht got minced at Istvaan V by the four traitor legions of the second wave. Ferrus got decapitated by Fulgrim, no idea about the other two.

The audio-novel Raven's Flight confirms Corax survived (having been rescued by the Raven Guard & Imperial Army forces that had stayed behind at the Ravenspire). Vulkan's fate is still unknown, TMK (although the Salamanders think he survived Istvaan V, that doesn't mean much - the Iron Hands think Ferrus did also, and we know he's deader than disco).

[The Grim Squeaker]

IIRC, Ferrus Manus, Vulkan and Corax and their legions where the first wave tht got minced at Istvaan V by the four traitor legions of the second wave. Ferrus got decapitated by Fulgrim, no idea about the other two.

Fulgrim seems to have a pretty good record against his brother primarchs. Bastard

Well, he is one of the only traitor Primarches to be 100% "dedicated" to Chaos, what with it being a Daemon in his body and not the primarch himself.
Many of the Primarch "deaths" were due to a lack of conviction/ruthlessness (Lion El Johnson hesitating when fighting Luther, The Emperor and Horus, etc'), while "Fulgrim" was absolutely focused on just killing his brothers. At least, that's how I rationalize the Primarch of hedonists killfucking more Primarchs than Horus (Sanguinius) and Logren (none, despite his being the first to fall. Unless his first chaplain turned him first) combined .

[Connor MacLeod]

Index Astartes 2 described Rogal Dorn as dying during a Black Crusade (although considering how he supposedly died aboard a Despolier class Battleship that existed many millenia before the class itself was actually made according to BFG, that's debatable.) The novel Space Marine also described his skeleton on more than one occasion likewise indicating he was dead.

Vulkan was noted in Index Astartes 4 as surviving the Dropsite massacre IIRC, but HH collected visions mentions that his body was never recovered from the Dropsite massacre (at least not from Terra) and that he hadn't been heard from afterwords. I'm also pretty certain there is hints he (supposedly) set up that whole "Treasure Hunt" scheme his Chapter is supposed ot undertake to prove worthy of his leadership, too.

[Koolaidkirby]

Well heres the list of primarchs I found

I = Lion El'Jonson =loyal =Alive, asleep within a secret chamber on the Rock..
II = Deleted from Imperial records, authorization unknown.
III = Fulgrim =traitor =Daemon Prince.
IV = Perturabo =traitor =Daemon Prince, ruler of Medrengard.
V = Jaghatai Khan =loyal =Unknown, sucked into the webway during a battle against the Eldar. not seen since
VI = Leman Russ =loyal =Unknown, disappeared into the Eye of Terror. will return at the End Times
VII = Rogal Dorn =loyal =Died in a Black Crusade.
VIII = Konrad Curze =traitor =Dead, assassinated by Callidus assassin M´Shen.
IX = Sanguinius =loyal =Dead, slain by Horus.
X = Ferrus Manus =loyal =Dead, slain by Fulgrim and his head offered to Horus.
XI = Deleted from Imperial records, authorization unknown.
XII = Angron =traitor =Daemon Prince.
XIII = Roboute Guilliman =loyal =Mortally wounded by Fulgrim currently held in stasis, rumored to be healing.
XIV = Mortarion =traitor =Daemon Prince, ruler of the Plague Planet.
XV = Magnus the Red =traitor =Daemon Prince, ruler of the Planet of Sorcerers.
XVI = Horus =traitor =Dead, slain by the Emperor.
XVII =Lorgar =traitor =Daemon Prince, ruler of Sicarus.
XVIII =Vulkan =loyal =Unknown, disappeared, said he'd return at the End Times
XIX = Corax =loyal =Unknown, disappeared, last seen heading for the Eye of Terror.
XX = Alpharius/Omegon =Traitor =One may be dead, slain by Roboute Guilliman. (It is not known which of the twins was killed. The reliability of this information is disputed, therefore it is possible that both Alpharius and Omegon are still alive.)