SGU 119, Incursion Part 1 (Spoilers)

[CaptJodan]

Oooh no, they specifically don't like how powerful they made Zats. They've said as much.

Probably explains why they avoid having the 304s fire beam weapons at every opportunity thus far too. Though I wouldn't put Zats in the same league here. I feel like SGU has done more to bring in SG-1 tech than Atlantis seemed to, referring to both events and devices as they still exist in the universe, so I find it hard that they can wash their hands on some of the most prolific weapons in the SGverse (Zats, not Beam weapons).

And what do they mean by how powerful they are? I understand why they silently buried the "3 shots vaporizes" rule, but we've lived without that rule for years on SG-1. Without that, a Zat is basically just a phaser.

The writers just flat decided not to deal with the elephant in the room with Atlantis, and seem to be taking the same stance here. But they brought the elephant food, a bed, and an entertainment center when they put Zats in Atlantis in "Midway". Up until this point, we might have written it off as they tried to use them at one point off screen, found them ineffective against Wraith biology, so stuck to stunners. Instead, it just looks stupid that they won't supply Atlantis with one of the more versatile weapons in the SG verse.

Here with the LA, it's even more incomprehensible. I can see the LA agreeing with O'Neill's speech about the staff weapon being a weapon that terrorizes people, while the P-90 is a weapon that kills people, but the absence of the Zat doesn't fly. The writers are randomly deciding what past tech is in and out based on nothing but whimsy.

[Siege]

I'm not that miffed about the Lucian Allianc not having tons of Goa'uld crap to wave around myself: most of high-end snakehead gear was pretty rare to begin with; staff weapons meanwhile are pretty unwieldy, especially in close quarters, and Zats... Well they would have admittedly been useful, but maybe there weren't any available to Kiva. Hers doesn't strike me as an unlimited resources kind of operation.

Having said that, the gateroom standoff frankly felt all kinds of contrived. It wasn't as bad as the way most sci-fi shows handle troops coming through a narrow chokepoint (at least the Alliance goons used flashbangs to make their way through the doors) but come on, Young is all hardcore about venting the atmosphere into space one moment and then mysteriously hesitates upon seeing Telford the next? Even though he knows people can be resurrected just fine if you're quick enough? That was just stupid.

I dunno, between the planet so predictably blowing up, the predictable stand-off, and the weird way Eli and Chloe end up in an unexplored part of the ship (really, after so many months they still haven't explored every nook or cranny of Destiny? C'mon, it's a big ship but not that big...) this episode felt kind of like a let-down, especially after the excellentness that was Subversion. I gave it a four, but now that I think about it that's mostly contingent on the next episode paying off. Really, this was pretty average so far.

[NecronLord]

A zat makes it much harder to write drama because it's an instant stun ray. Say the Lucians had hit Chloe with one of them instead. Both she and Eli (who she was touching at the time) would have been down and captured.

[NecronLord]

One Zat isn't enough, and two Zats not only kill, but often destroy parts of the brain. And there is the fact that they don't have any Zats. The only known solution to the brain washing is near death experience. That Zat would outright kill.

He's talking about using Zats to cure Nish'ta, which he presumably thinks is the brainwashing technology here. I don't think so, though, rather the one Ba'al used.

Nish'ta wouldn't work too long - a mild jolt can kill it - and therefore wouldn't be the Lucian's choice in this scenario, of course.

[spaceviking]

A zat makes it much harder to write drama because it's an instant stun ray. Say the Lucians had hit Chloe with one of them instead. Both she and Eli (who she was touching at the time) would have been down and captured.

If I recall correctly in SG1 people have been hit by Zats without being incapacitated, sometimes its just painful.

[PREDATOR490]

The near death experience thing was tried on Teal'c before and his son, with his son they used the Zat gun to shock him out of it as I recall.
Regardless, the idea that dying is somehow a reset button for brain-washing is bizzare and a contrivance in making Telford go from 'evil bad guy' to 'innocent victim'

As for the invasion in general, it seems neither side had a clue what they were doing. We have the LA coming with masks and equipment apparantly based on intel Telford has been feeding them yet they brought no means of subduing the people on board ?
No stun weapons, no stun gas or lethal gas to kill quickly. I presume they want people ALIVE who know how to operate the equipment so bringing stun weapons would have been a no-brainer for ensuring you dont kill these people AND can take hostages.

As for our brain-dead defenders, after this long they apparantly have no idea how to defend against incoming attackers. That might be acceptable from the civilians but for fuck sake, the military personnel should be getting that as part of their induction training into the STARGATE program. Yet, we have no defences at all or any attempt to create some once the danger of LA becomes apparant. Instead, we pin all our hopes on Young venting the atmosphere which goes to shit cause he is a pansy then have defence teams getting mauled. Although SGU has shown O'Neil and the SGC are equally incompetant or stupid because they should have had Young replaced ages ago.

[Siege]

Replaced how? It's not like they can just send in someone else, and the lieutenants on board are no better than Young is. The only way to bring in someone more competent is to perform a mind-swap, and the Ancient communication stones don't exactly strike me as the most stable device ever so during every crisis (and every time he stepped through the gate, and every time Destiny jumps to FTL or drops out of it, etc.) you'd have to worry about losing your commander. How could Stargate Command possibly replace Everett Young?

[PREDATOR490]

Which is exactly why O'Neil's scene is stupid because he says he will have someone replace Young if he cant do the job. Christ, he even says from the sounds of Young's stupidity HE should be there.

Thus, we have SGU showing that not only is O'Neil stupid for not replacing O'Neil ALREADY but blatantly highlighting the fact the stones offer the possibility for O'Neil to literally have qualified personnel on Destiny including himself in moments. Sure, the ship jumping or going through a gate will severe the link but since the goal is to DEFEND / REPAIR the ship then those two things are irrelevant.

As a result the show has made a good example of pointing out either really large gap in logic via O'Neil being stupid or a major plot hole via O'Neil having the ability to replace Young with someone more qualified to lead Destiny.

[CaptJodan]

A zat makes it much harder to write drama because it's an instant stun ray. Say the Lucians had hit Chloe with one of them instead. Both she and Eli (who she was touching at the time) would have been down and captured.

Wraith stunners are no different. They traded one stun gun for another in Atlantis. Unless you're saying that the creators were apparently pissed with the Zat AFTER Atlantis aired, in which case you say they hate stunners too.

I don't think you picked the best example for drama there. It's an easy fix. Don't have Eli touching her. Or don't have the guy who shot her carrying a Zat, thus forcing him to shoot with bullets. Not everyone has to have one. The Goa'uld aren't producing many anymore, so they're a precious commodity that the LA only gives to the higher ranks. There's a thousand ways to keep drama and not have the writers just sticking their fingers in their ears and humming loudly that Zats don't exist.

The same goes for the goa'uld stun grenades we've seen in the past. A perfect opportunity to use one here. They're probably (or could be written to be) one-shot weapons, so you wouldn't have to worry about Destiny's crew getting them at the end of the arc, but it would show the LA using more Goa'uld tech besides just the ships. If anything, the writers choice of not of using any real Goa'uld tech shows a lack of creativity on their part.

[Oskuro]

I think the reason stunners are being ignored is, precisely, for drama. With them, firefights are not as potentially lethal, and there's less tension when someone is hit, and that's really a logic I can't argue with, firefights in both SG-1 and Atlantis were, at times, a boring repetition of "heroes get shot and captured to then escape".

O'Neill can indeed replace Young simply by giving the order to have someone else take command. His point is not to imply that someone else aboard Destiny is better qualified than Young, his point is to make Young understand that he can lose command if he doesn't pull his shit together.

And I agree that Carter not beaming the pilots in was a stupid move. They should've had a ground unit still under the disruption fields being left behind instead, that would have been properly dramatic, and not as troublesome.

As for Eli and Chloe exploring, I'll say it again, if they find something cool, neat, if it is just a chance for them to somehow bond and talk about WoW, crap. I really hope they don't ruin Eli by making him get together with Chloe or some shit like that. Personally, I'd very much like it if at certain point Chloe actually pursued a relationship with Eli, and he turned her down (I somehow get the feeling that Scott's attitude towards relationships might lead to a drama-laden breakup that will, doublessly, affect Eli, as I totally see Chloe going after Eli as a rebound after a painful breakup).

[Covenant]

I gave it a 5, because it showed me that a lot of my initial reactions were correct, but that they're aware of it and accommodating. I think that Young will be replaced as CO by Telford when this is over, assuming Telford survives, which I hope since when he's "Normal" he seems like a good guy and is an emotive actor. Eli and Chloe seems okay, guy getting vaporized is cool, and the Lucians are worthless but at least it's some cool action.

Tons of minor quibbles, as stated, but none detracted from my fun so I was okay with them. Yes, the military looked incompetent, but since I already thought Young and his B-Team benchwarmers were incompetent, it was actually a notable plot point and may lead to the introduction of Telford as commanding officer.

As for Zats, I hardly see what the problem could be. In SG1 we had Zats, in SGA we had Stunners, and in SGU we barely ever have any aliens to fight man-to-man so what are you gonna zat? You can't zat the clock or zat the air supply system or zat the poor morale, which are the primary antagonists of the series. You can't lean out an airlock and zat the blue man group motherships either. And if they ever introduce a primary nemesis, just let it be in big clanky armor or robots, neither of which can be zatted.

It's not as if the question about "How many bullets do they have left?" is going to just go away either, and we've seen bullets and C4 be 'more powerful' than a Zat ever was. Ten Jaffa? Sweep the P90, all dead. Enemy mothership? A little C4 on the bridge. Bam! Cooked. I can't think of a single thing so far that the Zats would have made irrelevant. Sure, they make the firefights a little less tense, but let's be brutally honest. Did anyone ever expect ANY of the heroes to be shot to death? For every Zat we saw we saw 100 staff weapons, which fire exploding insta-kill balls of doom, and firefights were never 'tense'. I frankly think Zats are the most terrifying weapon to face because you don't require any real skill to use it, and being captured is much more 'dangerous' than taking a dramatic wound to the leg and limping back to the gate with a buddy.

[NecronLord]

You can't zat [...] the poor morale

<Sokar> You can if you try hard enough!

I'm not really going to defend the lack of Zats, mind, because I don't agree with it. I would have much more SG1 in the show, possibly including a Tok'ra character.

But then, I'd use the Aschen Confederation "Expanding vastly throughout the stargate network and with almost unlimited ambition" as the bad guys for the Milky Way arc; because the Aschen's build-up in SG1 was so much cooler than the Lucians'. Too.

These are minor quibbles, and I thought the Lucians were rather good in this episode, and quite cool. I particularly liked Kiva's "Then he should have done that," beat - then her Lt raises his arm and the Lucians immediately begin escaping.

I really wouldn't mind some or all of them sticking around; even though I expect they can't afford to keep Rhona Mitra on for a season.

[JME2]

I gave it a 5, because it showed me that a lot of my initial reactions were correct, but that they're aware of it and accommodating. I think that Young will be replaced as CO by Telford when this is over, assuming Telford survives, which I hope since when he's "Normal" he seems like a good guy and is an emotive actor. Eli and Chloe seems okay, guy getting vaporized is cool, and the Lucians are worthless but at least it's some cool action.

If Telford survives, it'll make for an interesting dynamic. Wray may favor him over Young and it adds a wild card into the ship's political struggle. And even though Telford was supposed to command the Expedition, the men are clearly loyal to Young, especially Greer. Would they follow his orders? Furthermore, the rest of the Expedition now knows Telford screwed them over as badly as Rush. Are they even going to care that he was brainwashed and not in control of his actions?? We could see a mob lynching.

[Covenant]

I hope they keep some of the Lucian folks too, yeah. Telford, this new chick, and some of their admittedly badass guys (the scientists among who seem quite earnest in their search for knowledge) would be a really great way to liven up the dynamics.

Afterall, we had the whole Civilian/Military uprising and it barely lasted a single episode and it didn't resolve anything. If these dorks get added as our Maquis then we'd have an actual power struggle to worry about, entirely different motives (assuming Young and Keeva retain independent commands, both under Telford) and the possibility for the Lucian Alliance to stop being the hilariously not-an-equal-match for the Stargate Alliance (in that I don't even know how many shitty Lucian Ha'tak it would take to stop our Asgard Doomship) and start them being more of a lingering dissident group.

Anyway, regardless of flaws, now we have so many more toys to play with! There have been some real stinkers, and a handful of good ones, but this is the first episode I am actually excited by. Good writing, the kind of thoughtful pacing that benefits this series, and an outside perspective to remind us "yes these aren't the cream of the crop" and help understand why this is dire. Everyone seemed spot on (even if that means being a dumbshit incompetant) and I really felt the characters living up to their best and worst aspects. They are getting consistently better at making failures exciting, and it takes a very good staff to show fumbling characters in a way that makes the audience pumped up for more, and I am. And I've been a very harsh critic in the past.

[AndroAsc]

Young is such a dick... Why couldnt he have partially vented the atmosphere of the gate room leaving the Lucian invaders incapacitated? Retarded writers. I know this is not the first time someone has said this... but this is a seriously big fucking loophole. Would it be that hard to <invent plot device> that prevents Young from venting the atmosphere, maybe something the Lucian folks brought aboard?

And why wasnt there like a fucking backup plan in the event the main plan failed? And for fuck sake, after losing the gateroom, couldn't they have least vented the atmosphere for all corridors connecting out from the gateroom? At least this way the Lucian folks can be isolated.

[GuppyShark]

I thought this episode was worthwhile just for the scene where it is explained that the Tau'ri military authority defers to civilian authority - the Lucian leader glances at Telford for confirmation and he just shoots her this priceless look as if to say "Yeah, that's how it works ."

[Alyeska]

Anyone consider that Icarus had Zats, but it was a crate that was left behind? Lucian Alliance not having Zats could also be under similiar circumstances. They aren't necessarily a primary weapon. Lucian Alliance has historically used projectile weapons. SGC has issued Zats on occasion. Both gate events to Destiny were under less than ideal circumstances for bringing a complete equipment set.

[NecronLord]

I don't think anyone's saying it's impossible, rather saying what we'd like to see?

[NecronLord]

I thought this episode was worthwhile just for the scene where it is explained that the Tau'ri military authority defers to civilian authority - the Lucian leader glances at Telford for confirmation and he just shoots her this priceless look as if to say "Yeah, that's how it works ."

From Tarquinn on SB.com

Young is such a dick... Why couldnt he have partially vented the atmosphere of the gate room leaving the Lucian invaders incapacitated?

Because for all he knows, they'd put a goa'uld probe drone through first, and then tromp through in space-suits when they discovered it was empty. Unless you mean why didn't he do it after they arrived, in which case the answer is because it now won't work. They can just march room to room and open the doors.

Would it be that hard to <invent plot device> that prevents Young from venting the atmosphere, maybe something the Lucian folks brought aboard?

Yes, that. Mind you, I find it bizarre that Destiny will let them ventilate an inhabited compartment anywhere on the ship. The most realistic thing would probably be for a screen to ping up with Ancient text saying, "THIS ACTION CONTRAVENES SAFETY PROTOCOLS. INSERT MASTER COMMAND CODE OR ABORT"

And why wasnt there like a fucking backup plan in the event the main plan failed? And for fuck sake, after losing the gateroom, couldn't they have least vented the atmosphere for all corridors connecting out from the gateroom? At least this way the Lucian folks can be isolated.

You're assuming that those corridors aren't useful to the Tau'ri moving around in their end. It's only thirty feet remember. You're also assuming that this won't provoke the Lucians into moving on at this stage; because of course, what people do when under attack is sit there and take it amrite? We really don't know who'll win if they start moving again.

[Gramzamber]

You know if they had a zat they could've just bypassed the whole atmosphere venting hole to restore Telford to begin with.
Or they could've had Young vent the atmosphere only for the Lucians to turn up in breathing masks, making a) Young not an idiot and b) the Lucians smarter than they look (surely it's prudent to wear breathing apparatus when boarding a hostile spaceship?).

But then again Young is a guy who'll bang his wife in the body of someone he hates so maybe he's supposed to be a moron.

[Covenant]

As stated, a near-death experience was the only way for some of the more hardcore mind-control stuff to be done.

I didn't remember this either until people mentioned it and I recalled the episode where Teal'c was forced to languish and die while Brae'tac kept pushing him to renounce Apophis again, and remember his past. I woulda' liked a similar scene with Telford (because I suddenly really like his actor's acting) and it woulda' established how hard it is to break this mindcontrol and why Young and Telford may have once had a warmer relationship.

[Gramzamber]

As stated, a near-death experience was the only way for some of the more hardcore mind-control stuff to be done.

I didn't remember this either until people mentioned it and I recalled the episode where Teal'c was forced to languish and die while Brae'tac kept pushing him to renounce Apophis again, and remember his past. I woulda' liked a similar scene with Telford (because I suddenly really like his actor's acting) and it woulda' established how hard it is to break this mindcontrol and why Young and Telford may have once had a warmer relationship.

They could simply say the Lucians only have access to basic brainwashing tech making Telford as recoverable as Rayak was.
Or is it that the Lucians have total understanding and usage of Goa'uld tech when the plot says so? I doubt brainwashing gear was something your average Jaffa could operate.

[Temujin]

I hope they keep some of the Lucian folks too, yeah. Telford, this new chick, and some of their admittedly badass guys (the scientists among who seem quite earnest in their search for knowledge) would be a really great way to liven up the dynamics.

I could see a common foe (CoughBlueManGroupCough) interrupting their little waltz and forcing them to work together. Of course NecronLord will come along now and pop that little thought balloon.

Afterall, we had the whole Civilian/Military uprising and it barely lasted a single episode and it didn't resolve anything. If these dorks get added as our Maquis then we'd have an actual power struggle to worry about, entirely different motives (assuming Young and Keeva retain independent commands, both under Telford) and the possibility for the Lucian Alliance to stop being the hilariously not-an-equal-match for the Stargate Alliance (in that I don't even know how many shitty Lucian Ha'tak it would take to stop our Asgard Doomship) and start them being more of a lingering dissident group.

I could see their numbers and their superior knowledge of local conditions working in their favor. After all, Earth has only had just over a decade of travel off world with only a small numbers of personnel via the Gate, and an even smaller number of ships.

[Gramzamber]

It would be interesting if the Lucians stopped being antagonists, particularily because as antagonists they're just a bunch of shin-kicking twits who are only getting any major successes because the Tau'ri are carrying the idiot ball.
But much like my hopes that the Asurans as a whole would be anything other than evil killbots who must be destroyed I'm sure this idea will be dashed upon the shores of dissapointment.

[Manus Celer Dei]

I'm curious, are there any major budget constraints for SGU that would limit them from using more of the special effects we've seen previously?

I think they're actually rather embarrassed about some of the concepts in older episodes, and don't want to use them again. Notice the thing Rush was tortured with in the last episode was quite different from the full size goa'uld version; more like a taser than producing the light-from-the-mouth effect.

I dunno, I don't think it's that they're embarrassed but that SGU seems to be going out of it's way to differentiate itself from SG1 and SGA to drive home that it's a very different show; recycling bits from the old show's visual style would be sort of counterproductive in that case. Honestly I don't really mind little discontinuities like this, sure the question of why they don't have any fun toys is kind of niggling, but it'd be more jarring to see the Lucian Alliance guys tramp through the 'gate with a bunch of staffs and jackal-helmets or whatever.

New Goa'uld-tech derived foldy-unfoldy helmets would be pretty bitchin' though.