Forerunners Vs. the Galactic Empire

[Jake]

"Then please do explain the slow ass shots we see in the Halo 2 and 3 videos and don't try to claim that 'magic slip space' did it this time. Just because the ships can move fast doesn't mean that they weren't firing slow as shit projectiles and dealing damage with them."

This is pretty much your entire argument, that since you see UNSC ships firing some type of slow ammunition in the games, they are automatically the best weapons they have. Well, I can use your so called contradiction of the books to argue the opposite. In halo 2 we see UNSC ships rapidly firing slow projectiles which you assume are MAC guns. Where's your evidence for this? I know that the UNSC, besides having MAC guns, have a variety of other weapons, including rail guns, archer missiles, and autocannons, all of which are sublight and all of which could be attributed to the weapons seen firing in halo 2. In fact, if the MAC guns fire at a significant fraction of c, .4 as given by every specifically written source, you wouldn't see them at all, and if they had a significant recharge time (as also indicated by the written sources) there's a very good chance that you would not see a ship firing a MAC gun in the span of time that they are shown in that scene. On the other hand, archer missles, which can be fired with rates as high as hundreds at once, and auto cannons and rail guns, of which their are multiple emplacements per ship, would easily match up with our sublight, rapidly firing mystery projectiles. And where did you infer that these do significant damage? We never see this in the game. In the books, archer missiles are only useful on a covenant ship when it's shields are down and even then only when fired in the hundreds. In the case of the fleet engagement depicted in halo 2, their was a fleet of human ships, each with the capacity to fire hundreds of these missiles and most likely covenant ships with their shields depleted.

As for the Halo 3 MAC scene, your argument was that a .4c projectile would create massive explosions from igniting the air. I thought about this last night and your probably right, considering a large asteroid with much less KE than a MAC projectile can do the same. However, the MACs may be firing slowly for that exact reason. They are firing right over Voi and probably don't want to ignite their own city. Also, human ships are not shielded and would probably damage or destroy themselves and definitely the fighters they had with them from an explosion created by firing at .4c in atmosphere. So it is very likely that they are firing far slower than they are capable because they have no choice.

My point is that yes, the games are higher in canon, but according to canon policy the books are also official canon unless their is a direct contradiction to the games, and since I just proved that any supposed contradiction with the game visuals is arguable at best it is obvious that there is nothing that explicitly contradicts the MAC figures which are agreed upon by all written sources, including the halo encyclopedia. So, unless cortana comes out in Halo Reach and says that MAC guns fire at kilotuns at best, your argument goes down the drain, since you can provide no definitive contradictions.

[Norade]

Okay, first off learn to use the damn quote buttons.

This is pretty much your entire argument, that since you see UNSC ships firing some type of slow ammunition in the games, they are automatically the best weapons they have. Well, I can use your so called contradiction of the books to argue the opposite. In halo 2 we see UNSC ships rapidly firing slow projectiles which you assume are MAC guns. Where's your evidence for this? I know that the UNSC, besides having MAC guns, have a variety of other weapons, including rail guns, archer missiles, and autocannons, all of which are sublight and all of which could be attributed to the weapons seen firing in halo 2.

If they are autocannons or railguns then they still show pathetic energy capacities and they don't behave like missiles so I think we can discount that option. If we take them to be anything but missiles and given where they're fired from, front and center, they seem likely to be MAC guns. For evidence I present the ship firing just as the scene ticks from 7:59 to 8:00 in this clip.

In fact, if the MAC guns fire at a significant fraction of c, .4 as given by every specifically written source, you wouldn't see them at all, and if they had a significant recharge time (as also indicated by the written sources) there's a very good chance that you would not see a ship firing a MAC gun in the span of time that they are shown in that scene.

If we ever saw a shot that large we would have known, the recoil would be crazy thus even without seeing the projectile we would know when they fired.

On the other hand, archer missles, which can be fired with rates as high as hundreds at once, and auto cannons and rail guns, of which their are multiple emplacements per ship, would easily match up with our sublight, rapidly firing mystery projectiles.

The shots we see are hardly rapid fire and the projectiles we see don't act like missiles, so they must either be railgun shots or a very slow firing auto-cannon. Yet these facts don't fit with the fact that we see a very clear shot coming from the large gun extending from the front of a ship in the scene I linked to. In fact all the shots seem to come from the same point on each ship suggesting it is the main weapon firing. We never see multiple shots at once either that, combined with the lack of behavior we expect from a missile means we can safely rule missile fire out.

And where did you infer that these do significant damage? We never see this in the game. In the books, archer missiles are only useful on a covenant ship when it's shields are down and even then only when fired in the hundreds. In the case of the fleet engagement depicted in halo 2, their was a fleet of human ships, each with the capacity to fire hundreds of these missiles and most likely covenant ships with their shields depleted.

Using both the scene where the asteroid hits the Covenant ship and the railgun firing scene from Halo 3 we see that objects with limited speed can deal damage to Covenant vessels. Though Taz claims something something slip space caused this he has no evidence to support his claim and thus I suggest that we assume that shots going at that speed can cause the destruction of a Covenant vessel. The energy I generously calculated for the railguns we're shown in Halo 2 and 3 is 68 kilotons, the energy for the flood pod will be tougher but I shall try to calculate it here.

Given the size of the chunk of rock that penetrated in this scene and assuming that it is a 20m by 30m blob weighing two-thousand kilograms per cubic meter, near that of sandstone and possibly generous given that such pods are composed mostly of flesh, we get a mass of 75,428,000kg and if we assume 10km/s which is certainly far faster than it is moving it still only imparts a total of 901 kilotons of energy. Higher than other calculations, but not even close to Star Wars standards. If we scale the speed back to a more reasonable 5km/s then we get an energy of only 225 kilotons.

It could be argued that I am underestimating the size of the pod that struck so I will double its size and do the calculations again. This new pod will mass 603,428,000kg and impart either 7.2 megatons or 1.8 megatons. This is higher than my other estimates, but it still shows a pathetic challenge for Star Wars level firepower.

As for the Halo 3 MAC scene, your argument was that a .4c projectile would create massive explosions from igniting the air. I thought about this last night and your probably right, considering a large asteroid with much less KE than a MAC projectile can do the same. However, the MACs may be firing slowly for that exact reason. They are firing right over Voi and probably don't want to ignite their own city. Also, human ships are not shielded and would probably damage or destroy themselves and definitely the fighters they had with them from an explosion created by firing at .4c in atmosphere. So it is very likely that they are firing far slower than they are capable because they have no choice.

In that case we can see that even a weak shot can kill a Covenant vessel. Thank you for showing that no higher power shot is needed.

My point is that yes, the games are higher in canon, but according to canon policy the books are also official canon unless their is a direct contradiction to the games, and since I just proved that any supposed contradiction with the game visuals is arguable at best it is obvious that there is nothing that explicitly contradicts the MAC figures which are agreed upon by all written sources, including the halo encyclopedia. So, unless cortana comes out in Halo Reach and says that MAC guns fire at kilotuns at best, your argument goes down the drain, since you can provide no definitive contradictions.

Except that we see Covenant ships being destroyed by far weaker shots in the games thus suggesting that the energies the books claim are needed to kill a Covenant vessel are orders of magnitude too high.

[Invader Taz]

After this lets just drop the stuff about UNSC and Covenant firepower and go onto Scenarios 2 and 3 since we all agree the Forerunner will ultimately be stomped in 1.

Once again we see that they can weaponize slipspace, but we have no numbers for what it can do, how large a bubble they can send, how fast it propagates so we can't determine how large a threat it is.

We have time stamps for how long the battle between MB and OB was. Culture-lite battle times with the Slipspace rifts destroying ships in what would be seconds given the time stamps for the battle.

Halo Legends is explicitly not cannon and thus can't be used.

Wrong. The stories are canon but per Frank O'Conner they had to make stylistic concessions to the medium so the visuals can not be trusted to be completely accurate. Please try and understand the English language since somehow you took the visuals not being completely reliable to mean the entire thing is non-canon.

More shit from the books that is never even remotely shown in Cannon.

Are you fucking blind or do you lack the critical reading skills needed to understand the Halo canon policy is similar to that of SW? In the event of a direct contradiction that can not be reconciled the games overrule the books. You have not shown anything that can not be reconciled outside of the Halo 2 outlier. And if you claim it is not the outlier than tell me how they even hit Covenant ships given they can accelerate far faster than the MAC round.

The high and low end scales are ass pulled with no explanation for how he figured out what the Covenant ship could handle firepower wise (Going by the scenes I have shown from Halo they look to be truly pathetic in terms of toughness.).
He actually isn't retard enough to think MAC rounds moving just over a kilometer per second are accurate instead of a clear outlier, because the fact this ships can fucking run rings around their own weapons makes no sense. That scene in Halo 2 is the same as one in TFoR: Covenant ship is 3000 kms away in TFoR. Halo 2 Covenant ships are BvR when they enter the Kill Zone and both ships and SMAC platforms open up (SMAC platform low end is still 4% the speed of light which farther shoots down your retarded low ends). State MAC round speed in TFoR is 30 km/s yet it takes only a few seconds at most to reach the Covenant ship which was 3000 kilometers away. The UNSC fires slow ass rounds that are slower than anything else ever seen in canon at BvR targets.

Either the UNSC is retarded beyond being able to even breath or this is an outlier towards the low end of Halo firepower. Links to cut scenes farther down.

Yet you can't say what will happen and can't provide any numbers for how much energy may collapse a slip stream portal or even define anything about them for me. Thus making it really hard to debate about them until you can find a decent source.

They have to open the goddamn portal up inside the core of the star as seen in Halo Wars when the UNSC destroyed that mini-star. Also all that happens when you fire something at a Slipspace portal is it gets dumped into Slipspace. That is just what happens. Also I think it has been pretty will fucking defined given how it works: An Uncontrolled Slipspace Rift is a hole torn in the fabric of space-time that causes the laws of physics to break down and destroy anything that gets to close or comes in contact with it. That is what it is.

Did you just miss this one?

Yes, it was getting late. All that happens when you shoot at a Slipspace portal is the TL bolt will enter Slipspace just like anything else. The fact they opened them up inside stars to force them Super Nova (Halo Enc. confirms Super Nova) would be a good place to start (that is what the UNSC did to that mini-star in Halo Wars with their Slipspace drive as I recall).

Then please do explain the slow ass shots we see in the Halo 2 and 3 videos and don't try to claim that 'magic slip space' did it this time.

Reasonable people understand this is what you call an outlier. It is contradicted by everything else and is also internally inconsistent because the targets are BvR when both ships and SMAC platforms first open fire. Outlier. Outlier. It is an outlier towards the lower end of Halo canon numbers.

Here are some quotes from the books before we get to the cut scenes farther down:

Page 104 TFoR
"That puts our ghost at eighty million kilometers. Even if it
were a ship, it would take a full hour to get within weapons
range. And besides--" He waved at the screen. "--it's gone
again."

Page 148 TFoR
"Contact! Contact!" Lieutenant Dominique shouted. "En-
emy plasma torpedoes away, sir!"

Plasma torpedoes are fired at the UNSC Destroyer Iroquois.

Next page:

Lieutenant Dominique turned. "Collision with plasma in
nineteen seconds, sir."

At the bottom of the page:

"Distance three hundred thousand kilometers," Lieutenant
Dominique said. "Collision in two seconds."

Depending on how you take this it means Covenant ships can engage at high single digit light second ranges or a couple light seconds.

Page 324 TFoR
"Thank you, Cortana. Is there a planet nearby?"
"Beta Gabriel," she said. "Fourteen million kilometers.
Practically next door."
"Good. Ensign Lovell, plot a course for a slingshot orbit.
Reverse our trajectory back in-system."

This takes place after they destroyed the Covenant Super Cruiser and at this time the PoA has taken heavy damage from the battle. The battle between the PoA start some time after 0616 Hours per page 317. Next pages gives us 0637 Hours for the mission being done by Spartans on one of Reach's orbital docking stations. A short time after this on Page 328 the Autumn has returned but without an exact time on the page. Now going to the Epilogue on Page 335 gives us 0647 Hours for the time after the Spartans on the orbital stations were picked up and so we know the Autumn did 14 million + kilometers in 10 minutes.

Now that is all I can recall and find at the moment in The Fall of Reach so next up is First Strike:

Page 261 First Strike
Cortana's image flickered on the holographic pad near the star
map. "Covenant cruiser is only two hundred thousand kilome-
ters away," she reported. "Closing on an intercept course."

Page 263
"Fred, move us at best speed. Harverson, come to course zero-
nine-zero. Get us closer to that moon-sized chuck of stone,
twenty thousand kilometers to port."

Note that the ship Hybrid UNSC Covenant ship Gettysburg-Ascendant Justice has taken massive damage and the engines are nowhere near their full power after the battle in Slipspace that takes place earlier in the book.

There are several more quotes that I'll look up later.

Just because the ships can move fast doesn't mean that they weren't firing slow as shit projectiles and dealing damage with them.

Hey, how about we put some real thought into this! Their ships can accelerate at hundreds to thousands of Gs. Yet a MAC gun can't even fucking hit them because the round barely moves at more than a kilometer per second! You see the problem? The only way they could even hope to hit a Covenant ship would be if the Covenant are so retard they charge right at the UNSC fleet without any attempt at dodging the slow ass rounds. Bulk of evidence based on standard book engagement ranges (thousands of kilometers) and accelerations in both books and games shoot this down as the clear outlier it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxhpgE_LWi8 End of Halo 1. Also note that the book The Flood mentions that the Autumn's fusion reactors were the only source for the multi-Teraton fireball we see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaLsfQGkj4 Halo 2 we arrive at Delta Halo

You keep claiming this, but provide no numbers to prove that they can do anything of the sort. The ability to destroy a Covenant or Forerunner Vessel =/= to the ability to do the same through Star Wars shielding.

Its a fucking hole in the very fabric of space-time. It breaks down the local laws of physics and just makes everything go wacky. I have given you the quote. Also you will now show SW shields being able to withstand a hitting a hole in the fabric of space-time or having the local laws of physics breaking down. And no, I am not shifting burden of proof. I have given the quote that shows they destroy ships by being holes in space-time that break down the laws of physics. You claim that SW shields can take that.

It specifically said 'inertial manipulation' which could be done using manipulation of gravity. While we don't have any numbers at all for how tough a forerunner ship is if they used gravity as a weapon as part of slip space weapons then Wars can already counter this attack and return the favor in kind. An example being turning up inertial dampeners and extending the field to defeat the gravity based attacks of the Vong in NJO.

The ships as they exit the massive target that is the portal. They always seem to exit rather sluggishly.

Hm, when looking at the Delta Halo scene and the arrival at Earth at the end of Halo 2 they seem to leave at a reasonable speed.

Either way, they still allowed shambling mounts of crap to capture their technology and were then to stupid to end the threat quickly.

"Shambling"? I think we've played different games since last I checked the Flood likes to jump around and run at you instead of Borg shambling.

In the end the Forerunners chose suicide as their option and even in doing that they failed.

How did they fail? The Flood was an extra-galactic threat they had to continue to research incase it ever returned to threaten the again. The only reason their planned failed was because the Gravemind hacked their most powerful AI (Halo: Evolutions mentions it I've heard. And also one of the Halo 3 Terminals has MB mentioning that it is not him talking but the Gravemind when he is turning agains the Forerunners).

We also don't know if they survived setting off Novas or if this was a last ditch suicide tactic.

*Shrugs* I've always assume the naval battle group just opens up the Slipspace ruptures and jumps the moment the star goes Super Nova. Even so we know it did become a standard tactic to slow down the Flood which towards the end of the war had overrun over one million worlds.

Except that there can be other explanations for enhanced fireballs and that is precisely why we don;t do calculations based on ship versus ship attacks.

And what explanations would this be?

Perhaps they slowed so the flood organisms aboard could survive the impact? You simply only want to use the example that favors your side.

And now you will prove they had the ability to slow the pod down. I am simply trying to make the Halo universe reasonably consistent. Hell, the only reason I’m ever auguring for Halo Enc. calcs here is because I want an interesting thread rather than “GE Bolostomps the Forerunner with a small fleet. The end.” Mostly anymore I argue for the more reasonable mid end calcs of single digit Gigatons which happens to fit rather nicely between the two extremes.

I provided an explanation for that above, you are simply looking for an example that favors your position and then filling in proof once you've already reach a conclusion.

And you will of course prove that they had the engines do this. Otherwise I can just as easily blame the whole thing on the giant Slipspace portal. And there is still the matter of another Flood Pod clearly just bouncing off the left side of the prow at 27-28 seconds right after that one guts it.

So you suggest we throw out the main scenes from the games that show ships firing to better fit the lower tier cannon books. That is laughably bad. Face it, the only shots we see being fired in the games are weak as shit.

When everything in both the books and the GAMES contradicts this scene and you can not find a way to fucking reconcile it with other showings yes.

Yet still we see them on screen, how do you explain that fucker?

It is what anyone that understands SF universe that isn't completely consistent is an OUTLIER. Which I have proven with quotes and showings of high acceleration which make it impossible for said slow rounds to hit.

Though Taz claims something something slip space caused this he has no evidence to support his claim and thus I suggest that we assume that shots going at that speed can cause the destruction of a Covenant vessel.

I don't have evidence that supports it happening before the effects become apparent on screen. Slipspace and Forerunner relics are noted for doing werid shit (like in First Strike when they capture a Foreruner crystal the size of a fist it mucks up both artificial gravity (Covie Grav Lift) and at the very least made Reach's gravity field disappear to sensors. When Cortana makes the jump to Slipspace the crystal pulls a small Covenant fleet along with them into a Slipspace bubble. The results are that anything without sufficient mass or close enough to something with sufficient mass were disappearing and reappearing at random. That reminds mean at one point after taking much damage the Gettysburg-Ascendant Justice were able to accelerate across 10,000 kilometers in 10 seconds flat).

And sorry if I missed anything but I keep getting pulled away to do other things.

[Norade]

After this lets just drop the stuff about UNSC and Covenant firepower and go onto Scenarios 2 and 3 since we all agree the Forerunner will ultimately be stomped in 1.

I can agree to that.

Once again we see that they can weaponize slipspace, but we have no numbers for what it can do, how large a bubble they can send, how fast it propagates so we can't determine how large a threat it is.

We have time stamps for how long the battle between MB and OB was. Culture-lite battle times with the Slipspace rifts destroying ships in what would be seconds given the time stamps for the battle.

That is all well and good, but a Turbolaser can do the same thing to a weak enough force. The route took only seconds and it, being a route, implies that the enemy hardly stood a chance.

Halo Legends is explicitly not cannon and thus can't be used.

Wrong. The stories are canon but per Frank O'Conner they had to make stylistic concessions to the medium so the visuals can not be trusted to be completely accurate. Please try and understand the English language since somehow you took the visuals not being completely reliable to mean the entire thing is non-canon.

That means that we can't do any calculations based on it and may need to take other things with a grain of salt as well. It's pretty low on the scale.

More shit from the books that is never even remotely shown in Cannon.

Are you fucking blind or do you lack the critical reading skills needed to understand the Halo canon policy is similar to that of SW? In the event of a direct contradiction that can not be reconciled the games overrule the books. You have not shown anything that can not be reconciled outside of the Halo 2 outlier. And if you claim it is not the outlier than tell me how they even hit Covenant ships given they can accelerate far faster than the MAC round.

Halo 2 is hardly an outlier given that similar firepower is shown in Halo 3. The games are the highest cannon and every combat scene we see has the ships moving like beached whales and the shots moving very slowly. This doesn't match combat as seen in the books so we must discard them. It is simple.

The high and low end scales are ass pulled with no explanation for how he figured out what the Covenant ship could handle firepower wise (Going by the scenes I have shown from Halo they look to be truly pathetic in terms of toughness).

He actually isn't retard enough to think MAC rounds moving just over a kilometer per second are accurate instead of a clear outlier, because the fact this ships can fucking run rings around their own weapons makes no sense. That scene in Halo 2 is the same as one in TFoR: Covenant ship is 3000 kms away in TFoR. Halo 2 Covenant ships are BvR when they enter the Kill Zone and both ships and SMAC platforms open up (SMAC platform low end is still 4% the speed of light which farther shoots down your retarded low ends). State MAC round speed in TFoR is 30 km/s yet it takes only a few seconds at most to reach the Covenant ship which was 3000 kilometers away. The UNSC fires slow ass rounds that are slower than anything else ever seen in canon at BvR targets.

Except that for the battles we see they're clearly closer than that and game visuals trump how the books claim that battle was fought. You have to go games down, not books up to scale things. You can claim outlier all you want, but it doesn't change how every combat we see in the game looks.

[quote

]Yet you can't say what will happen and can't provide any numbers for how much energy may collapse a slip stream portal or even define anything about them for me. Thus making it really hard to debate about them until you can find a decent source.

They have to open the goddamn portal up inside the core of the star as seen in Halo Wars when the UNSC destroyed that mini-star. Also all that happens when you fire something at a Slipspace portal is it gets dumped into Slipspace. That is just what happens. Also I think it has been pretty will fucking defined given how it works: An Uncontrolled Slipspace Rift is a hole torn in the fabric of space-time that causes the laws of physics to break down and destroy anything that gets to close or comes in contact with it. That is what it is.[/quote]

How much matter can be destroyed and at what rate? We know they take seconds to form, but how fast can they move at peak? How far away can they be formed? Without these numbers there can be no debate.

Did you just miss this one?

Yes, it was getting late. All that happens when you shoot at a Slipspace portal is the TL bolt will enter Slipspace just like anything else. The fact they opened them up inside stars to force them Super Nova (Halo Enc. confirms Super Nova) would be a good place to start (that is what the UNSC did to that mini-star in Halo Wars with their Slipspace drive as I recall).

Umm, from the cutscene I saw it was already unstable and they slingshot around it. I'm not inclined to look for more if your conceding this part of the debate already.

Then please do explain the slow ass shots we see in the Halo 2 and 3 videos and don't try to claim that 'magic slip space' did it this time.

Reasonable people understand this is what you call an outlier. It is contradicted by everything else and is also internally inconsistent because the targets are BvR when both ships and SMAC platforms first open fire. Outlier. Outlier. It is an outlier towards the lower end of Halo canon numbers.

Except it isn't an outlier when you only look at the games, only when you look at the books do they seem low end. Your book quotes do nothing to change this.

Just because the ships can move fast doesn't mean that they weren't firing slow as shit projectiles and dealing damage with them.

Hey, how about we put some real thought into this! Their ships can accelerate at hundreds to thousands of Gs. Yet a MAC gun can't even fucking hit them because the round barely moves at more than a kilometer per second! You see the problem? The only way they could even hope to hit a Covenant ship would be if the Covenant are so retard they charge right at the UNSC fleet without any attempt at dodging the slow ass rounds. Bulk of evidence based on standard book engagement ranges (thousands of kilometers) and accelerations in both books and games shoot this down as the clear outlier it is.

In the games we see a lot more close range combat than we see described in the books. We also see low powered shots kill a ship in the scene in Halo 3. I see no outlier but the one you're trying to make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxhpgE_LWi8 End of Halo 1. Also note that the book The Flood mentions that the Autumn's fusion reactors were the only source for the multi-Teraton fireball we see.

The reactor and fuel blow up and release more energy than the ship can use at once? That's not surprising at all. If you exploded the fuel rods in an aircraft carrier you'd see the same thing. The engines and weapons may also not be rated for that much power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaLsfQGkj4 Halo 2 we arrive at Delta Halo

They may not have the energy to power their weapons and move quickly in combat. Also that was speed not acceleration showed there so it proves little anyway.

You keep claiming this, but provide no numbers to prove that they can do anything of the sort. The ability to destroy a Covenant or Forerunner Vessel =/= to the ability to do the same through Star Wars shielding.

Its a fucking hole in the very fabric of space-time. It breaks down the local laws of physics and just makes everything go wacky. I have given you the quote. Also you will now show SW shields being able to withstand a hitting a hole in the fabric of space-time or having the local laws of physics breaking down. And no, I am not shifting burden of proof. I have given the quote that shows they destroy ships by being holes in space-time that break down the laws of physics. You claim that SW shields can take that.

They withstood what was described as a miniature black hole in NJO. Besides, it isn't my job to show the physics and underlying theories behind your poorly explained weapon which you can give me no hard numbers for. For all I know they might be easy to avoid.

It specifically said 'inertial manipulation' which could be done using manipulation of gravity. While we don't have any numbers at all for how tough a forerunner ship is if they used gravity as a weapon as part of slip space weapons then Wars can already counter this attack and return the favor in kind. An example being turning up inertial dampeners and extending the field to defeat the gravity based attacks of the Vong in NJO.

Another missed quote here and for a bit of an important topic... You should really read my posts closer...

The ships as they exit the massive target that is the portal. They always seem to exit rather sluggishly.

Hm, when looking at the Delta Halo scene and the arrival at Earth at the end of Halo 2 they seem to leave at a reasonable speed.

Either way, they still allowed shambling mounts of crap to capture their technology and were then to stupid to end the threat quickly.

"Shambling"? I think we've played different games since last I checked the Flood likes to jump around and run at you instead of Borg shambling.

Shambling compared to a spaceship, vehicles and fighter craft.

In the end the Forerunners chose suicide as their option and even in doing that they failed.

How did they fail? The Flood was an extra-galactic threat they had to continue to research incase it ever returned to threaten the again. The only reason their planned failed was because the Gravemind hacked their most powerful AI (Halo: Evolutions mentions it I've heard. And also one of the Halo 3 Terminals has MB mentioning that it is not him talking but the Gravemind when he is turning agains the Forerunners).

The flood survived didn't they? They also started with a very small population and killed a galaxy spanning race. This same threat was able to be engaged in limited fashion by UNSC and Covenant forces.

We also don't know if they survived setting off Novas or if this was a last ditch suicide tactic.

*Shrugs* I've always assume the naval battle group just opens up the Slipspace ruptures and jumps the moment the star goes Super Nova. Even so we know it did become a standard tactic to slow down the Flood which towards the end of the war had overrun over one million worlds.

The you can't show that Star Wars can't do the same, it was the armor to survive a nova without leaving the system, not the means to induce one that took the Maw facility so long to create.

Except that there can be other explanations for enhanced fireballs and that is precisely why we don;t do calculations based on ship versus ship attacks.

And what explanations would this be?

Shield interactions, fuel or ammo stores being set off, a mass of oxygen from a storage tank rushing in and feeding the explosion. Take your pick.

Perhaps they slowed so the flood organisms aboard could survive the impact? You simply only want to use the example that favors your side.

And now you will prove they had the ability to slow the pod down. I am simply trying to make the Halo universe reasonably consistent. Hell, the only reason I’m ever auguring for Halo Enc. calcs here is because I want an interesting thread rather than “GE Bolostomps the Forerunner with a small fleet. The end.” Mostly anymore I argue for the more reasonable mid end calcs of single digit Gigatons which happens to fit rather nicely between the two extremes.

They may have had breaking flaps or other means to slow themselves, the atmosphereic friction may have also slowed them. It's better than saying magic and not looking at the onscreen evidence. Even if we take it that some magic field slowed them you can't ignore that a slow object hulled a Covenant ship which had no reason to have shields down.

I provided an explanation for that above, you are simply looking for an example that favors your position and then filling in proof once you've already reach a conclusion.

And you will of course prove that they had the engines do this. Otherwise I can just as easily blame the whole thing on the giant Slipspace portal. And there is still the matter of another Flood Pod clearly just bouncing off the left side of the prow at 27-28 seconds right after that one guts it.

That pod may have simply been less massive and hit at an angle that didn't allow it to penetrate. It may also have not been as well held together. Please prove that magic is more likely than this explaination.

So you suggest we throw out the main scenes from the games that show ships firing to better fit the lower tier cannon books. That is laughably bad. Face it, the only shots we see being fired in the games are weak as shit.

When everything in both the books and the GAMES contradicts this scene and you can not find a way to fucking reconcile it with other showings yes.

Except that you have yet to prove this is the case.

Yet still we see them on screen, how do you explain that fucker?

It is what anyone that understands SF universe that isn't completely consistent is an OUTLIER. Which I have proven with quotes and showings of high acceleration which make it impossible for said slow rounds to hit.

Except that every combat scene we see shows the same things and thus it can't be an outlier moron.

Though Taz claims something something slip space caused this he has no evidence to support his claim and thus I suggest that we assume that shots going at that speed can cause the destruction of a Covenant vessel.

I don't have evidence that supports it happening before the effects become apparent on screen. Slipspace and Forerunner relics are noted for doing werid shit (like in First Strike when they capture a Foreruner crystal the size of a fist it mucks up both artificial gravity (Covie Grav Lift) and at the very least made Reach's gravity field disappear to sensors. When Cortana makes the jump to Slipspace the crystal pulls a small Covenant fleet along with them into a Slipspace bubble. The results are that anything without sufficient mass or close enough to something with sufficient mass were disappearing and reappearing at random. That reminds mean at one point after taking much damage the Gettysburg-Ascendant Justice were able to accelerate across 10,000 kilometers in 10 seconds flat).

So using more book wank to try and magic away a clearly shown scene from the games which are a higher level of cannon... You're like a broken record.

And sorry if I missed anything but I keep getting pulled away to do other things.

If you don;t have the time or will to debate properly please stop insulting me with half assed replies.

[Jake]

Okay, first off learn to use the damn quote buttons.

Hopefully that works

If they are autocannons or railguns then they still show pathetic energy capacities

Pathetic energy capabilities they may have, but you might as well fire something while you're waiting for your MAC to recharge.

and they don't behave like missiles so I think we can discount that option.

How can you tell? More on this in a sec.

If we take them to be anything but missiles and given where they're fired from, front and center, they seem likely to be MAC guns. For evidence I present the ship firing just as the scene ticks from 7:59 to 8:00 in this clip.

They are not all fired from front and center. The ship from your scene fires from the front (Its the one you can see the front of poking out of the roughly 120 degree angle at the bottom window correct?), but closer to the top than the center, and we know that the MAC gun is located in the center. In fact, if you look really closely, its hard to tell I know, you can see the round come out slightly above the MAC tube. Also, for your viewing pleasure, look at 7:46 to 7:52, at the two top left most ships. They are clearly firing this projectile from the side. This actually supports the railgun/autocannon/missile idea since UNSC ships have multiple rail, missile, and auto weapon emplacements. Now, back to the not behaving like missiles look at the very beginning of 8:06. The ship to the right of the master chief has fired off a round and if you pause it at the right moment(right at 8:06, it might take a few tries), you can see that the round has a wider front and a thinner back, which could indicate a missile with the wider front being the warhead and the thinner back being the plume. This would also explain the slower speed of the projectile.

If we ever saw a shot that large we would have known, the recoil would be crazy thus even without seeing the projectile we would know when they fired.

"By the time the slug is fired out the end of the barrel it has been accelerated to a speed of approximately 120,000 kilometers per second for ship-based MAC and around 150,000 kilometers per second for "Super" MAC. At the same time, a pair of thrusters on the bottom side of the station fire for a couple of seconds to counteract the acceleration imparted to the station." (Halopedia)

The shots we see are hardly rapid fire and the projectiles we see don't act like missiles, so they must either be railgun shots or a very slow firing auto-cannon. Yet these facts don't fit with the fact that we see a very clear shot coming from the large gun extending from the front of a ship in the scene I linked to. In fact all the shots seem to come from the same point on each ship suggesting it is the main weapon firing. We never see multiple shots at once either that, combined with the lack of behavior we expect from a missile means we can safely rule missile fire out.

See above responce. As for "rapid fire" I worded that badly. I meant they fire rapidly compared to a MAC gun. From Halopedia, "The time it takes to bring the MAC's systems to full charge on a UNSC vessel is the deciding force in a conflict. Thus, while a vessel may not run out of ammunition for a long time (depending on the size/weight of the shots and the capacity of the ship), a captain or commander has to carefully analyze the situation of a battle and use his shots strategically." This does not give an actual recharge time but it states that recharge is an impotant factor in battle and if MACs fired as fast as the projectiles in that scene it wouldn't be.

Using both the scene where the asteroid hits the Covenant ship and the railgun firing scene from Halo 3 we see that objects with limited speed can deal damage to Covenant vessels. Though Taz claims something something slip space caused this he has no evidence to support his claim and thus I suggest that we assume that shots going at that speed can cause the destruction of a Covenant vessel. The energy I generously calculated for the railguns we're shown in Halo 2 and 3 is 68 kilotons, the energy for the flood pod will be tougher but I shall try to calculate it here.

Given the size of the chunk of rock that penetrated in this scene and assuming that it is a 20m by 30m blob weighing two-thousand kilograms per cubic meter, near that of sandstone and possibly generous given that such pods are composed mostly of flesh, we get a mass of 75,428,000kg and if we assume 10km/s which is certainly far faster than it is moving it still only imparts a total of 901 kilotons of energy. Higher than other calculations, but not even close to Star Wars standards. If we scale the speed back to a more reasonable 5km/s then we get an energy of only 225 kilotons.
It could be argued that I am underestimating the size of the pod that struck so I will double its size and do the calculations again. This new pod will mass 603,428,000kg and impart either 7.2 megatons or 1.8 megatons. This is higher than my other estimates, but it still shows a pathetic challenge for Star Wars level firepower.

Ok, first of all the shadow of intent had just been part of a battle where it was outnumbered 3 to 1, so there's a good chance it's shields may have been out of commission. Now, go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afhT2Mes ... re=related and pause it at 0:26. You should see the projectile in question. Now go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afhT2Mes ... re=related and look at the picture of the flood dispersal pod. The two are obviously different, considering the dispersal pod has tentacle things about half the length of the main body, which the projectile in question does not. My theory is that it is a piece of the already highly damaged high charity coming off in the atmosphere. If this were true, the projectile would not be made of flesh or sandstone, but the metal that the covenant use to armor their warships. This armor is incredibly resilient (read my first post in this thread) and the intent's armor being breached by armor of the same type makes sense (only diamond can cut diamond).

In that case we can see that even a weak shot can kill a Covenant vessel. Thank you for showing that no higher power shot is needed.

Uh, we never see these weak shots even fired at a covenant vessel. All we see is them being used to absolutely no effect on a forerunner dreadnaught.

Except that we see Covenant ships being destroyed by far weaker shots in the games thus suggesting that the energies the books claim are needed to kill a Covenant vessel are orders of magnitude too high.

Would you kindly point me toward a video of a covenant vessel being killed by these weaker shots?

[Invader Taz]

That is all well and good, but a Turbolaser can do the same thing to a weak enough force. The route took only seconds and it, being a route, implies that the enemy hardly stood a chance.

IIRC that is becaue the bulk of the ships were controlled by Flood forms and were civilian craft will only MB's core fleet was Capital class ships numbering at 2011 total. Once the Halo pulse hit Offensive Bias gained the upper hand in ship numbers.

That means that we can't do any calculations based on it and may need to take other things with a grain of salt as well. It's pretty low on the scale.

That is one of the things that makes me happy about it. I can ignore the stupid idea of Hunters the size of a Scarab.

How much matter can be destroyed and at what rate? We know they take seconds to form, but how fast can they move at peak? How far away can they be formed? Without these numbers there can be no debate.

Going from the time stamps for the battle it took seconds to destroy ships 5 kilometers shorter than Super Star Destroyer (all MB had left at this point was his core fleet which would be Dreadnoughts with only a small fraction being made up of sub-capital class ships if any). I'll look through the Terminals later to see if we can get an idea of range. Though to be conservative it appears to be close range since it states collisions are being used by OB which would be in the hundreds to low thousand of kilometers area using book ranges (I'll edit the Scenarios to add the other books will also used for 2 and 3).

Umm, from the cutscene I saw it was already unstable and they slingshot around it. I'm not inclined to look for more if your conceding this part of the debate already.

The star becoming unstable is the result of Forge opening the portal up inside of it. The local laws of physics breaking and large amounts of the stars mass being sent into Slipspace caused the star to go Super Nova (a very, very, very small Super Nova of course).

They withstood what was described as a miniature black hole in NJO. Besides, it isn't my job to show the physics and underlying theories behind your poorly explained weapon which you can give me no hard numbers for. For all I know they might be easy to avoid.

How close was the black hole? But for know I will concede that unless they come into direct contact with a Rift they will not be destroyed.

It specifically said 'inertial manipulation' which could be done using manipulation of gravity. While we don't have any numbers at all for how tough a forerunner ship is if they used gravity as a weapon as part of slip space weapons then Wars can already counter this attack and return the favor in kind. An example being turning up inertial dampeners and extending the field to defeat the gravity based attacks of the Vong in NJO.

Another missed quote here and for a bit of an important topic... You should really read my posts closer...

Sorry, just a lot more busy today than normally.

True, they could turn it against the Forerunners once they figure it out. But at what time did they start doing this against the Vong during the war? Because it may take at least sometime for the Empire to start using this as a countermeasure.

Shambling compared to a spaceship, vehicles and fighter craft.

All of which the Flood had capture from the Forerunners over the course of 300 years.

The flood survived didn't they? They also started with a very small population and killed a galaxy spanning race.

Only Infection forms were not effected by the Halo Array. Given the Forerunner knew the Flood was extra-galactic it makes sense to keep some samples to study incase another Flood invasion happens or if they plan to leave and hunt it down to end the threat. The Forerunners may have won the war without having to fall back on the Array if it hadn't been for the Gravemind hacking MB and learning of their plans.

The Forerunners attempted to contain the Flood failed, mainly because after first contact, they viewed the Flood as more a disease, attempting to contain it and quarantine it to the systems it was already in, instead of treating it as the threat it was and declaring total war on the Flood. They did not start a true war until it was far to late to contain the Flood to a small number of systems.

This same threat was able to be engaged in limited fashion by UNSC and Covenant forces.

After 100,000 years of containment and with access only to their most basic forces with limited biomass to work from and no Forerunner technology beyond teleportation. Trying to compare the Flood that fought the Forerunner to the Flood that fought the UNSC and Covenant just doesn't work without knowing just how things went during the Forerunner-Flood War.

The you can't show that Star Wars can't do the same, it was the armor to survive a nova without leaving the system, not the means to induce one that took the Maw facility so long to create.

True. Though given it has only been used once it is possible it is rather rare or too expensive for use on ships larger than star fighter size.

If you don;t have the time or will to debate properly please stop insulting me with half assed replies.

Will as I said I was a lot more busy than normal today. But I should have plenty of time for the next couple hours and tomorrow.

Edit: The projectiles we see in the Halo 2 cut scene may be the Fusion Rockets the UNSC has used before (though it did prove to be mostly ineffective against Covenant ships). This is not surprising given that at this point the UNSC was pulling out every last weapon they had.

[Jake]

Taz, could you please look up a covenant destroyer in the Halo encyclopedia and see if it agrees with the halopedia article
here: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Covenant_Destroyer. If so, I think I can end the debate using scenerio 3, info on the covie destroyer, and your sentinel power quotes from GoO.

[Ghost Rider]

So in all this back and forth, are you going to show us scenes wherein(and not just going to Halowiki and vomiting what they have done) they have demonstrated this material, and tell us why the Forerunners would have technology on par with this.

[Jake]

I will use the book Ghosts of Onyx and the Halo Wiki (but it should be supported by the halo encyclopedia, thats why I asked Taz to look for contradictions before I start the post) along with similar physics to my first post and other basic math to prove, hopefully decisively, that the forerunners would win.

So in all this back and forth, are you going to show us scenes wherein(and not just going to Halowiki and vomiting what they have done) they have demonstrated this material, and tell us why the Forerunners would have technology on par with this.

I do not just 'vomit' what the halo wiki has done. I use their descriptions of events and my physics. In fact, my numbers for MAC gun energies are different than halopedias, which are wrong. They do not take the relativistic speeds into account (which you have to since it fires at .4c) and use the formula KE=.5mv^2, while I use the relativistic formula.

This coming post is going to be relatively long and I have to go to bed, but it should be up tomorrow night or wednesday night at the latest.

[Norade]

That's why I haven't posted again yet, neither can provide any numbers for things even when asked multiple times. Taz brings up entirely non-cannon scenarios trying to use hyper inflated numbers from the encyclopedia while trying to find ways to make the games demonstrated numbers match the books when that is clearly not how cannon policies work. Not to mention when I have asked for numbers on Forerunner tech they can't give me anything that isn't overly vague and Taz entirely misses important points in my posts.

I think I'll take one last run at this before bowing out as obviously nobody else gives a shit what a pair of retards who fap to Halo and can't provide numbers think anyway as shown by the lack of response to the new scenario.

Okay, first off learn to use the damn quote buttons.

Hopefully that works

Yay, even a guy in a helmet and mittens can learn new tricks.

If they are autocannons or railguns then they still show pathetic energy capacities

Pathetic energy capabilities they may have, but you might as well fire something while you're waiting for your MAC to recharge.

That's like saying you should hose a tank with machine gun fire while your main gun reloads. You simply don't do it because it wastes ammo.

and they don't behave like missiles so I think we can discount that option.

How can you tell? More on this in a sec.

They don't accelerate like we would expect a missile burning its engine to, nor do we see them maneuver. Besides going by the books you wank they fire their missiles in mass launches not one at a time. Besides, why would they be firing missiles one at a time in a desperate battle against a superior enemy?

If we take them to be anything but missiles and given where they're fired from, front and center, they seem likely to be MAC guns. For evidence I present the ship firing just as the scene ticks from 7:59 to 8:00 in this clip.

They are not all fired from front and center. The ship from your scene fires from the front (Its the one you can see the front of poking out of the roughly 120 degree angle at the bottom window correct?), but closer to the top than the center, and we know that the MAC gun is located in the center. In fact, if you look really closely, its hard to tell I know, you can see the round come out slightly above the MAC tube. Also, for your viewing pleasure, look at 7:46 to 7:52, at the two top left most ships. They are clearly firing this projectile from the side. This actually supports the railgun/autocannon/missile idea since UNSC ships have multiple rail, missile, and auto weapon emplacements. Now, back to the not behaving like missiles look at the very beginning of 8:06. The ship to the right of the master chief has fired off a round and if you pause it at the right moment(right at 8:06, it might take a few tries), you can see that the round has a wider front and a thinner back, which could indicate a missile with the wider front being the warhead and the thinner back being the plume. This would also explain the slower speed of the projectile.

They may be autocannon or smaller railgun rounds, but as we don't see them accelerate while the glow, or engine plume as you would have it, is showing they can't be missiles. Thus it seems fair to assume that they are railgun or autocannon rounds being fired at a pitiful velocity.

If we ever saw a shot that large we would have known, the recoil would be crazy thus even without seeing the projectile we would know when they fired

"By the time the slug is fired out the end of the barrel it has been accelerated to a speed of approximately 120,000 kilometers per second for ship-based MAC and around 150,000 kilometers per second for "Super" MAC. At the same time, a pair of thrusters on the bottom side of the station fire for a couple of seconds to counteract the acceleration imparted to the station." (Halopedia)

Yet we never see this done in any scene in the games, even allowing for it happening we can see the projectile fire from the gun in the Halo 2 scene and it isn't going nearly that fast and I have shown that weak as piss MAC gun shots can destroy Covenant ships as per the Halo 3 cutscenes I have introduced as evidence.

The shots we see are hardly rapid fire and the projectiles we see don't act like missiles, so they must either be railgun shots or a very slow firing auto-cannon. Yet these facts don't fit with the fact that we see a very clear shot coming from the large gun extending from the front of a ship in the scene I linked to. In fact all the shots seem to come from the same point on each ship suggesting it is the main weapon firing. We never see multiple shots at once either that, combined with the lack of behavior we expect from a missile means we can safely rule missile fire out.

See above responce. As for "rapid fire" I worded that badly. I meant they fire rapidly compared to a MAC gun. From Halopedia, "The time it takes to bring the MAC's systems to full charge on a UNSC vessel is the deciding force in a conflict. Thus, while a vessel may not run out of ammunition for a long time (depending on the size/weight of the shots and the capacity of the ship), a captain or commander has to carefully analyze the situation of a battle and use his shots strategically." This does not give an actual recharge time but it states that recharge is an impotant factor in battle and if MACs fired as fast as the projectiles in that scene it wouldn't be.

Care to explain the scene from Halo 3 then where we see them fire low velocity shots and destroy a Covenant vessel? I won't take kindly to seeing more slipspace did it BS and suppositions that the ships shields were down when we have no proof of it and plenty that shows the UNSC simply having shit weak weapons.

Using both the scene where the asteroid hits the Covenant ship and the railgun firing scene from Halo 3 we see that objects with limited speed can deal damage to Covenant vessels. Though Taz claims something something slip space caused this he has no evidence to support his claim and thus I suggest that we assume that shots going at that speed can cause the destruction of a Covenant vessel. The energy I generously calculated for the railguns we're shown in Halo 2 and 3 is 68 kilotons, the energy for the flood pod will be tougher but I shall try to calculate it here.

Given the size of the chunk of rock that penetrated in this scene and assuming that it is a 20m by 30m blob weighing two-thousand kilograms per cubic meter, near that of sandstone and possibly generous given that such pods are composed mostly of flesh, we get a mass of 75,428,000kg and if we assume 10km/s which is certainly far faster than it is moving it still only imparts a total of 901 kilotons of energy. Higher than other calculations, but not even close to Star Wars standards. If we scale the speed back to a more reasonable 5km/s then we get an energy of only 225 kilotons.
It could be argued that I am underestimating the size of the pod that struck so I will double its size and do the calculations again. This new pod will mass 603,428,000kg and impart either 7.2 megatons or 1.8 megatons. This is higher than my other estimates, but it still shows a pathetic challenge for Star Wars level firepower.

Ok, first of all the shadow of intent had just been part of a battle where it was outnumbered 3 to 1, so there's a good chance it's shields may have been out of commission. Now, go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afhT2Mes ... re=related and pause it at 0:26. You should see the projectile in question. Now go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afhT2Mes ... re=related and look at the picture of the flood dispersal pod. The two are obviously different, considering the dispersal pod has tentacle things about half the length of the main body, which the projectile in question does not. My theory is that it is a piece of the already highly damaged high charity coming off in the atmosphere. If this were true, the projectile would not be made of flesh or sandstone, but the metal that the covenant use to armor their warships. This armor is incredibly resilient (read my first post in this thread) and the intent's armor being breached by armor of the same type makes sense (only diamond can cut diamond).

Bullshit, you have no proof that the shields are down besides an unsubstantiated claim by you that they're down. Secondly I see no tentacles on the flood pod that crashes through the window where MC is standing, in fact it looks the same as the pod that crashed through to where MC landed. It also doesn't look like a jagged chunk of metal that we would expect to see if it were a damaged chunk of ship. You also linked me to the same place twice so I can't see what the rest of your BS claim is about.

In that case we can see that even a weak shot can kill a Covenant vessel. Thank you for showing that no higher power shot is needed.

Uh, we never see these weak shots even fired at a covenant vessel. All we see is them being used to absolutely no effect on a forerunner dreadnaught.

Dreadnought, dreadnought, type it with me. Also, bullshit that we don't see weak shots fired at a Covenant vessel, the scenes I linked from Halo 2 & 3 show weak as shit things defeating Covenant vessels.

Except that we see Covenant ships being destroyed by far weaker shots in the games thus suggesting that the energies the books claim are needed to kill a Covenant vessel are orders of magnitude too high.

Would you kindly point me toward a video of a covenant vessel being killed by these weaker shots?

I already have but if I must... As we see here shots that must be traveling far slower than 40% of the speed of light kill the Covenant vessel. I have already explained how we know they are going so slowly and I don't care to repeat myself as unlike you and Taz I don't speak in circles.

That is all well and good, but a Turbolaser can do the same thing to a weak enough force. The route took only seconds and it, being a route, implies that the enemy hardly stood a chance.

IIRC that is becaue the bulk of the ships were controlled by Flood forms and were civilian craft will only MB's core fleet was Capital class ships numbering at 2011 total. Once the Halo pulse hit Offensive Bias gained the upper hand in ship numbers.

Great, then there is no reason why a fleet of Star Wars ships of the same size couldn't do the same in cutting the enemy to size.

That means that we can't do any calculations based on it and may need to take other things with a grain of salt as well. It's pretty low on the scale.

That is one of the things that makes me happy about it. I can ignore the stupid idea of Hunters the size of a Scarab.

Great we can both ignore the movie then.

How much matter can be destroyed and at what rate? We know they take seconds to form, but how fast can they move at peak? How far away can they be formed? Without these numbers there can be no debate.

Going from the time stamps for the battle it took seconds to destroy ships 5 kilometers shorter than Super Star Destroyer (all MB had left at this point was his core fleet which would be Dreadnoughts with only a small fraction being made up of sub-capital class ships if any). I'll look through the Terminals later to see if we can get an idea of range. Though to be conservative it appears to be close range since it states collisions are being used by OB which would be in the hundreds to low thousand of kilometers area using book ranges (I'll edit the Scenarios to add the other books will also used for 2 and 3).

Yes, and I'm sure that a Star Dreadnought could do the same given the weak as shit nature of Halo ships. You're not impressing me and you have provided no evidence for your side besides maybes and IIRC's. Quotes, screen shots from the games, and cutscenes if you please.

Umm, from the cutscene I saw it was already unstable and they slingshot around it. I'm not inclined to look for more if your conceding this part of the debate already.

The star becoming unstable is the result of Forge opening the portal up inside of it. The local laws of physics breaking and large amounts of the stars mass being sent into Slipspace caused the star to go Super Nova (a very, very, very small Super Nova of course).

Except that a star that size shouldn't go Nova, hint a Nova and a super Nova aren't exactly the same not that I would expect a retard like yourself to know that. We also already know that that 'star' must not be natural as it wouldn't have the gravity to stay together even as a super dense white dwarf, which is is clearly not, so they may have only disrupted whatever was keeping the mass together. This is just one of many strikes against your idea that slipspace can cause Novae in any star.

They withstood what was described as a miniature black hole in NJO. Besides, it isn't my job to show the physics and underlying theories behind your poorly explained weapon which you can give me no hard numbers for. For all I know they might be easy to avoid.

How close was the black hole? But for know I will concede that unless they come into direct contact with a Rift they will not be destroyed.

I can't find any quotes for distances or range, but I would assume that as they are described as 'micro-black holes' they would need to be touching the shields. As for you 'conceding for know', whatever that means, you still can't show how fast these rifts move or how far from a ship they can be projected so they seem as if they may be useless against any aware ship.

It specifically said 'inertial manipulation' which could be done using manipulation of gravity. While we don't have any numbers at all for how tough a forerunner ship is if they used gravity as a weapon as part of slip space weapons then Wars can already counter this attack and return the favor in kind. An example being turning up inertial dampeners and extending the field to defeat the gravity based attacks of the Vong in NJO.

Wow you missed another key point, you must be fucking dense as shit or just ignoring things that you can't explain. Please answer all my points next time.

Another missed quote here and for a bit of an important topic... You should really read my posts closer...

Sorry, just a lot more busy today than normally.

Answer all my points next time or don't bother.

True, they could turn it against the Forerunners once they figure it out. But at what time did they start doing this against the Vong during the war? Because it may take at least sometime for the Empire to start using this as a countermeasure.

They figured this out after the first encounter where military craft fought the enemy. Thus after one engagement they may figure this out.

Shambling compared to a spaceship, vehicles and fighter craft.

All of which the Flood had capture from the Forerunners over the course of 300 years.

Except that a smart races would kill them before they can grow that strong. Or is that too hard for you to grasp?

The flood survived didn't they? They also started with a very small population and killed a galaxy spanning race.

Only Infection forms were not effected by the Halo Array. Given the Forerunner knew the Flood was extra-galactic it makes sense to keep some samples to study incase another Flood invasion happens or if they plan to leave and hunt it down to end the threat. The Forerunners may have won the war without having to fall back on the Array if it hadn't been for the Gravemind hacking MB and learning of their plans.

The Forerunners attempted to contain the Flood failed, mainly because after first contact, they viewed the Flood as more a disease, attempting to contain it and quarantine it to the systems it was already in, instead of treating it as the threat it was and declaring total war on the Flood. They did not start a true war until it was far to late to contain the Flood to a small number of systems.

No, a smart race wins the war and kills them again if they come back. You defeated them the first time and should do so again assuming your tech and their tech advance at the same rate so keeping a dangerous foe around for study is retarded especially. They should have simply learned what they could from dead samples and based on how the war went and called it a day.

Also their quarantine procedures must suck to let the flood spread that much.

This same threat was able to be engaged in limited fashion by UNSC and Covenant forces.

After 100,000 years of containment and with access only to their most basic forces with limited biomass to work from and no Forerunner technology beyond teleportation. Trying to compare the Flood that fought the Forerunner to the Flood that fought the UNSC and Covenant just doesn't work without knowing just how things went during the Forerunner-Flood War.

Given that we can use these flood as a base they're piss easy to contain and never should have spread anywhere.

The you can't show that Star Wars can't do the same, it was the armor to survive a nova without leaving the system, not the means to induce one that took the Maw facility so long to create.

True. Though given it has only been used once it is possible it is rather rare or too expensive for use on ships larger than star fighter size.

Except in total war you could send in AI suicide ships that won't survive, start a nova, and and lose a simple drone. That said I doubt this is used as we have never seen it done before. I highly doubt the war hinges on the ability to make star go Nova though especially as you haven't shown how swiftly the Forerunners could even cause a main sequence star to go Nova.

If you don't have the time or will to debate properly please stop insulting me with half assed replies.

Will as I said I was a lot more busy than normal today. But I should have plenty of time for the next couple hours and tomorrow.

Then maybe you should have posted when you had the time to do a proper job.

Edit: The projectiles we see in the Halo 2 cut scene may be the Fusion Rockets the UNSC has used before (though it did prove to be mostly ineffective against Covenant ships). This is not surprising given that at this point the UNSC was pulling out every last weapon they had.

As I said in response to Jake they didn't accelerate as we expect a rocket or missile to maintaining a stead speed so that can't be the case. Try again.

I will use the book Ghosts of Onyx and the Halo Wiki (but it should be supported by the halo encyclopedia, thats why I asked Taz to look for contradictions before I start the post) along with similar physics to my first post and other basic math to prove, hopefully decisively, that the forerunners would win.

Are you too lazy or too dumb to do your own work?

So in all this back and forth, are you going to show us scenes wherein(and not just going to Halowiki and vomiting what they have done) they have demonstrated this material, and tell us why the Forerunners would have technology on par with this.

I do not just 'vomit' what the halo wiki has done. I use their descriptions of events and my physics. In fact, my numbers for MAC gun energies are different than halopedias, which are wrong. They do not take the relativistic speeds into account (which you have to since it fires at .4c) and use the formula KE=.5mv^2, while I use the relativistic formula.

This coming post is going to be relatively long and I have to go to bed, but it should be up tomorrow night or wednesday night at the latest.

Except that you haven't shown anything from the highest tier of cannon to support the numbers the books claim for the MAC and Super MAC weapons. Thus your calculations mean nothing.

[Invader Taz]

Great, then there is no reason why a fleet of Star Wars ships of the same size couldn't do the same in cutting the enemy to size.

Upon checking the Terminals the total number of lesser warships (not counting the core fleet of the civ ships) was 86,000. The only reason the tide turn was because most of MB's ships were controlled by Flood Forms outside of his Core Fleet.

Also prehaps you would like to point out to me how a fleet of SW ships of the same size would be able to do it given they don't have Culture-lite AI's? Because like with the Culture that is the reason the battles happen so fast.

Also you will now give proof of thousands or tens of thousands of Super Star Destroyer class ships being built.

Yes, and I'm sure that a Star Dreadnought could do the same given the weak as shit nature of Halo ships. You're not impressing me and you have provided no evidence for your side besides maybes and IIRC's. Quotes, screen shots from the games, and cutscenes if you please.

Stop fucking lying. You have been given quotes, links to scenes and everything. But you do seem to be against his debate being interesting by bring up retard low end sub-kiloton BS.

Except that a star that size shouldn't go Nova, hint a Nova and a super Nova aren't exactly the same not that I would expect a retard like yourself to know that.

THE FUCKING STAR EXPLODE YOU IDIOT. WHAT DO YOU CALL A STAR WHEN IT EXPLODES? I USE SUPER NOVA BECAUSE THAT IS THE FUCKING NAME GIVEN BY THE HALO ENC. FOR WHEN A SLIPSPACE DRIVE FORCES A STAR TO EXPLODE.

But since you think I'm a retard:

Nova: Most Nova happen within a binary star system where the older star is a white dwarf and the other star is a red giant. As the red giant expands, it fells it's Roche Lobe and the white dwarf sucks in matter from it. This forms a hydrogen envelope around the dwarf. As more matter falls in and the pressures increase along with temperature to several million kelvins, the hydrogen envelop ignites, fueling the massive explosion that is a Nova.

Super Nova: A Super Nova happens in stars with 20-30 times the mass of our sun. Towards the end of their multi-million year lifes, this massive stars expand into either red super giants or blue super giants. There are two general types of Super Nova; Type I and Type II. Once the star has expand all of it's available and the iron core has formed, it collapses under it's own massive gravity field in minutes and rebounds off the iron core (which exceed 1.4 solar masses) in the massive explosion known as Super Nova.

We also already know that that 'star' must not be natural as it wouldn't have the gravity to stay together even as a super dense white dwarf, which is is clearly not, so they may have only disrupted whatever was keeping the mass together. This is just one of many strikes against your idea that slipspace can cause Novae in any star.

Quote me. Don't even think of putting words in my mouth.

Pg. 169 the Halo Enc.

DRASTIC ACTION
It soon became clear to the Forerunners that ordinary
naval tactics would prove fruitless in stemming the
mounting infection. They decide their only hope of
defeating the parasitic swarm would be to create even
more lethal weaponry. At first, robotic drones were
sent to battle and contain the Flood onslaught using
surgical, localized tactics. Soon after, the Forerunner
Fleet Command considered "pre mature stellar
collapse," by which a supernova would be triggered by
naval battel groups, engulfing a planetary system and
preventing any possible risk of Flood infection.

On time the only thing we really have is that the Flood can infect a planet with a population of 220 billion in 32 hours. That would be a fair bench mark I believe.

I can't find any quotes for distances or range, but I would assume that as they are described as 'micro-black holes' they would need to be touching the shields. As for you 'conceding for know', whatever that means, you still can't show how fast these rifts move or how far from a ship they can be projected so they seem as if they may be useless against any aware ship.

I mean as in I am conceding until there is farther canon information on this type of Slipspace rift. And I have given you the low ends for S2 and S3 based off the goddam terminal quote and books (which you claim has not been given it seems) and what we see in the books (which is *GASP* what make this debate interesting in S2 and S3). And on how fast they move? Its hole in space time, it is open on or near the fucking ship from what we are seeing and it rips it apart.

Wow you missed another key point, you must be fucking dense as shit or just ignoring things that you can't explain. Please answer all my points next time.

I fucking answered you below.

They figured this out after the first encounter where military craft fought the enemy. Thus after one engagement they may figure this out.

Ok.

Except that a smart races would kill them before they can grow that strong. Or is that too hard for you to grasp?

Yeah because its not like the Forerunners attempted to do just that. The Flood spread from planet to planet fast enough that the Forerunner could no keep up.

No, a smart race wins the war and kills them again if they come back.

Yeah, because you shouldn't study your enemy and see you can find a weakness that will make the next war far easier.

You defeated them the first time and should do so again assuming your tech and their tech advance at the same rate so keeping a dangerous foe around for study is retarded especially.

The Forerunners spent 300 years studying the Flood and all they could find was: This thing shouldn't even be alive.

Given how little they know about the Flood it makes fucking sense to keep some around to study in case they ever invade again with even greater force than before. Also "assuming your tech and their tech advance at the same rate" what the hell? The Flood as far as we know has never made any attempts to improve Forerunner technology. Given the fact the Forerunner don't have any idea what a second Flood invasion could be like, keeping samples around to study in an attempt to find a weakness is what makes sense.

They should have simply learned what they could from dead samples and based on how the war went and called it a day.

And maybe they did but they need live samples instead. Given they have live samples that means living Flood has something in it that dead samples don't.

Also their quarantine procedures must suck to let the flood spread that much.

Might have to do with the fact the Flood took them by complete surprise and was moving from world to world faster than the forces they had at the start of the war could keep up.

Given that we can use these flood as a base they're piss easy to contain and never should have spread anywhere.

WE HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHA THE FLOOD WAS LIKE THEN. Really, I find it stupid they lose to the Flood to, but at least I don't jump to conclusions without first having all the facts. Which is something you have been doing a lot of in this thread.

Except in total war you could send in AI suicide ships that won't survive, start a nova, and and lose a simple drone. That said I doubt this is used as we have never seen it done before. I highly doubt the war hinges on the ability to make star go Nova though especially as you haven't shown how swiftly the Forerunners could even cause a main sequence star to go Nova.

We know it takes the Flood 32 hours to infect a planet of 220 billion per the Halo 3 Terminals. That is a good spot to start from since a world with a smaller population will be overrun faster.

Then maybe you should have posted when you had the time to do a proper job.

Will I was waiting for you to reply. What am I suppose to reply to if you don't?

Except that you haven't shown anything from the highest tier of cannon to support the numbers the books claim for the MAC and Super MAC weapons. Thus your calculations mean nothing.

Point me to were the games at all contradict even the low end of 4% the speed of light for the SMAC. Because if the games don't contradict in a way that can't be reconciled the SMAC is still 50GT low end.

I will use the book Ghosts of Onyx and the Halo Wiki (but it should be supported by the halo encyclopedia, thats why I asked Taz to look for contradictions before I start the post) along with similar physics to my first post and other basic math to prove, hopefully decisively, that the forerunners would win.

I don't see any contradictions in the Halopedia article.

[Invader Taz]

Ghetto edit

Quote me. Don't even think of putting words in my mouth.

Ok, misread that pretty badly. Just ignore this.

[Norade]

Great, then there is no reason why a fleet of Star Wars ships of the same size couldn't do the same in cutting the enemy to size.

Upon checking the Terminals the total number of lesser warships (not counting the core fleet of the civ ships) was 86,000. The only reason the tide turn was because most of MB's ships were controlled by Flood Forms outside of his Core Fleet.

Also prehaps you would like to point out to me how a fleet of SW ships of the same size would be able to do it given they don't have Culture-lite AI's? Because like with the Culture that is the reason the battles happen so fast.

Also you will now give proof of thousands or tens of thousands of Super Star Destroyer class ships being built.

You wouldn't need them given the light guns on an ISD will frag each ship single shot as from the Halo 3 cutscene low megaton attacks will one hit a Convenant ship. Given that the battle was fought at close range and took seconds that gives plenty of time for each of the hundreds of light guns to pop your shitty ships. Not to mention fighters being launched or using ships designed for rapid fire low powered shots.

Yes, and I'm sure that a Star Dreadnought could do the same given the weak as shit nature of Halo ships. You're not impressing me and you have provided no evidence for your side besides maybes and IIRC's. Quotes, screen shots from the games, and cutscenes if you please.

Stop fucking lying. You have been given quotes, links to scenes and everything. But you do seem to be against his debate being interesting by bring up retard low end sub-kiloton BS.

Except I have shown very clearly that this is the case using videos and easy to follow math, you have done no work and shown nothing you retarded donkey raping soon of a syphilitic whore.

Except that a star that size shouldn't go Nova, hint a Nova and a super Nova aren't exactly the same not that I would expect a retard like yourself to know that.

THE FUCKING STAR EXPLODE YOU IDIOT. WHAT DO YOU CALL A STAR WHEN IT EXPLODES? I USE SUPER NOVA BECAUSE THAT IS THE FUCKING NAME GIVEN BY THE HALO ENC. FOR WHEN A SLIPSPACE DRIVE FORCES A STAR TO EXPLODE.

But since you think I'm a retard:

Nova: Most Nova happen within a binary star system where the older star is a white dwarf and the other star is a red giant. As the red giant expands, it fells it's Roche Lobe and the white dwarf sucks in matter from it. This forms a hydrogen envelope around the dwarf. As more matter falls in and the pressures increase along with temperature to several million kelvins, the hydrogen envelop ignites, fueling the massive explosion that is a Nova.

Super Nova: A Super Nova happens in stars with 20-30 times the mass of our sun. Towards the end of their multi-million year lifes, this massive stars expand into either red super giants or blue super giants. There are two general types of Super Nova; Type I and Type II. Once the star has expand all of it's available and the iron core has formed, it collapses under it's own massive gravity field in minutes and rebounds off the iron core (which exceed 1.4 solar masses) in the massive explosion known as Super Nova.

Except that the ball of fire we see there is clearly not a star you fucking brain damaged slug. No stars that small can exist without an outside source holding them together so please do show that that has the same characteristics as a regular main sequence star. Also you prove that in universe the people in Halo are retarded and don't know their ass from a hole in the ground as if the core was sucked out there would be no iron to rebound from and thus it couldn't be a Super Nova. They didn't know it and you didn't either you ignorant chunk of rectal seepage.

We also already know that that 'star' must not be natural as it wouldn't have the gravity to stay together even as a super dense white dwarf, which is is clearly not, so they may have only disrupted whatever was keeping the mass together. This is just one of many strikes against your idea that slipspace can cause Novae in any star.

Quote me. Don't even think of putting words in my mouth.[/quote]

I'm not putting words in your mouth at all and don't even try to use that fucking rag of an encyclopedia given that it is so wrong in many aspects that it has no value.

Pg. 169 the Halo Enc.

DRASTIC ACTION
It soon became clear to the Forerunners that ordinary
naval tactics would prove fruitless in stemming the
mounting infection. They decide their only hope of
defeating the parasitic swarm would be to create even
more lethal weaponry. At first, robotic drones were
sent to battle and contain the Flood onslaught using
surgical, localized tactics. Soon after, the Forerunner
Fleet Command considered "pre mature stellar
collapse," by which a supernova would be triggered by
naval battel groups, engulfing a planetary system and
preventing any possible risk of Flood infection.

On time the only thing we really have is that the Flood can infect a planet with a population of 220 billion in 32 hours. That would be a fair bench mark I believe.

So they have 32 hours to get there and stop you, that's piss easy, given how fast Wars ships move. Then they have to fire a light gun and you die. I see a curb stomping in the making.

I can't find any quotes for distances or range, but I would assume that as they are described as 'micro-black holes' they would need to be touching the shields. As for you 'conceding for know', whatever that means, you still can't show how fast these rifts move or how far from a ship they can be projected so they seem as if they may be useless against any aware ship.

I mean as in I am conceding until there is farther canon information on this type of Slipspace rift. And I have given you the low ends for S2 and S3 based off the goddam terminal quote and books (which you claim has not been given it seems) and what we see in the books (which is *GASP* what make this debate interesting in S2 and S3). And on how fast they move? Its hole in space time, it is open on or near the fucking ship from what we are seeing and it rips it apart.

So you're going to concede that the weapon is worthless as you can provide no numbers besides the no limits fallacy that it can destroy anything. Excellent, one point down, many to go.

Wow you missed another key point, you must be fucking dense as shit or just ignoring things that you can't explain. Please answer all my points next time.

I fucking answered you below.

Not really and given your record of missing my points it needed repeating anyway.

They figured this out after the first encounter where military craft fought the enemy. Thus after one engagement they may figure this out.

Ok.

Yay, another point that actually made it through your thick skull to the hunk of crap inside you call a brain.

Except that a smart races would kill them before they can grow that strong. Or is that too hard for you to grasp?

Yeah because its not like the Forerunners attempted to do just that. The Flood spread from planet to planet fast enough that the Forerunner could no keep up.

So a race that should have had no access to space ships beyond civillian models and possibly a limited number of military craft were able to out pace a full navy and multiple planets worth of Firerunners? That is the definition of fail.

No, a smart race wins the war and kills them again if they come back.

Yeah, because you shouldn't study your enemy and see you can find a weakness that will make the next war far easier.

Not when they're that piss easy to beat conventionally by simply using two braincells.

You defeated them the first time and should do so again assuming your tech and their tech advance at the same rate so keeping a dangerous foe around for study is retarded especially.

The Forerunners spent 300 years studying the Flood and all they could find was: This thing shouldn't even be alive.

Given how little they know about the Flood it makes fucking sense to keep some around to study in case they ever invade again with even greater force than before. Also "assuming your tech and their tech advance at the same rate" what the hell? The Flood as far as we know has never made any attempts to improve Forerunner technology. Given the fact the Forerunner don't have any idea what a second Flood invasion could be like, keeping samples around to study in an attempt to find a weakness is what makes sense.

Except that they fail because if it is alive then it should be alive, that was like the old claim that according to physics a fly shouldn't be able to fly.

Also, if your enemy uses no tech and dies to your guns why study them. Why not just nuke whichever planet they hit and go on with life?

They should have simply learned what they could from dead samples and based on how the war went and called it a day.

And maybe they did but they need live samples instead. Given they have live samples that means living Flood has something in it that dead samples don't.

Maybe, maybe not, either way they failed to contain a defeated foe and ultimately lost due to gross stupidity.

Also their quarantine procedures must suck to let the flood spread that much.

Might have to do with the fact the Flood took them by complete surprise and was moving from world to world faster than the forces they had at the start of the war could keep up.

Unless the flood can make ships fly faster that should have been impossible. Then again the Forerunners were obviously as brain dead as you are.

Given that we can use these flood as a base they're piss easy to contain and never should have spread anywhere.

WE HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHA THE FLOOD WAS LIKE THEN. Really, I find it stupid they lose to the Flood to, but at least I don't jump to conclusions without first having all the facts. Which is something you have been doing a lot of in this thread.

Funny, I'm the one that has done math scaled from cutscenes and you jumped to conclusions and bent over backwards to claim that because of... handwave... the scenes were all wrong and had to be discarded. Then you ignored my points in several posts. So go fuck yourself you ignorant sack of shit.

Also why would the flood suddenly get worse? Do Forerunners make better food than humans and Covenant or something?

Except in total war you could send in AI suicide ships that won't survive, start a nova, and and lose a simple drone. That said I doubt this is used as we have never seen it done before. I highly doubt the war hinges on the ability to make star go Nova though especially as you haven't shown how swiftly the Forerunners could even cause a main sequence star to go Nova.

We know it takes the Flood 32 hours to infect a planet of 220 billion per the Halo 3 Terminals. That is a good spot to start from since a world with a smaller population will be overrun faster.

Maybe, however this can only happen if you people are terminally stupid and don't leave the planet before they can be infected. Doing this would deny the flood bodies and food and keep them easy to fight. You know, the smart thing to do.

Then maybe you should have posted when you had the time to do a proper job.

Will I was waiting for you to reply. What am I suppose to reply to if you don't?

I was more speaking of when you ignored points before and claimed you missed them. However I understand you're challenged so I'll let it slide.

Except that you haven't shown anything from the highest tier of cannon to support the numbers the books claim for the MAC and Super MAC weapons. Thus your calculations mean nothing.

Point me to were the games at all contradict even the low end of 4% the speed of light for the SMAC. Because if the games don't contradict in a way that can't be reconciled the SMAC is still 50GT low end.

We saw the Super MAC in Halo 2 fire a vastly sub C slug in the video you linked and in that scene it had no reason not to be firing all out so fuck off.

As we can see once again Taz ignores points, earlier he tried to hand wave away my calculated numbers, he has no response to me proving that the projectiles seen weren't missiles and he generally just argues in circles trying to make the games match the books. In short he is full of shit.

EDIT:

Ghetto edit

Quote me. Don't even think of putting words in my mouth.

Ok, misread that pretty badly. Just ignore this.

This is awesome, Taz now proves my claims that he is retarded and can't read. xD

[Xess]

I did some rough scaling on the Halo 3 crater fight scene with MS Paint, hence the rough part, and found the 14 km tall Keyship to be 69 pixels tall and the crater to be about 350 wide given the edge is just off the screen. The crater is circular and the UNSC frigates fire from the edge from what I can tell. The last shot fired impacts at most a second later, let's say .1 seconds since we just see the explosion. That means the crater is 71 km wide and the MAC round had a velocity of 710 km/s. That gives a KE of 1.5123e17 Joules, or 36 megatons for a 600 ton shell.

[Norade]

I did some rough scaling on the Halo 3 crater fight scene with MS Paint, hence the rough part, and found the 14 km tall Keyship to be 69 pixels tall and the crater to be about 350 wide given the edge is just off the screen. The crater is circular and the UNSC frigates fire from the edge from what I can tell. The last shot fired impacts at most a second later, let's say .1 seconds since we just see the explosion. That means the crater is 71 km wide and the MAC round had a velocity of 710 km/s. That gives a KE of 1.5123e17 Joules, or 36 megatons for a 600 ton shell.

I would have to say 0.1 seconds is generous, but even so 36 megatons is shit all to Star Wars. If we go with a more conservative 0.5 seconds we get a velocity of 142km/s a KE of 6.049E+15J for a yield of 1.44 megatons. Going way down to one second we get a very low end speed of 71km/s for a KE of 1.512E+15 for 361 kilotons yield. Thus, as three ships fired in the scene in question, we get a high end range value of 108 megatons a mid range of 4.32 megatons and a low end of 1.08 megatons to kill a Covenant ship

These numbers are impressive in real life, but not so much for fictional universes. They also fit with my calculation for the scene where the flood pod kills a Covenant vessel which I calculated at a high end of 7.1 megatons for a 40m by 60m flood pod massing 600,000 tons and moving at 10km/s. If we go up and scale at an even higher end mass of 4.8 million tons for an 80m by 120m pod moving at 10km/s we get a KE of 2.414E+17J or 56.7 megatons which fits with the high end estimate done by your calculations.

At this level my low end calculations for the slow 12km/s projectiles of an assumed mass of 400 tons do have trouble fitting as they have a yield of only 6.8 kilotons per shot however against weak points they may still have a use. If we get really generous and up the speed to 120km/s, this is assuming the human ships we see are 12km long and the shots pass them in 1/10th of a second which is pretty generous, we get a KE of 2.880E+15J or 688 kilotons per shot. The high end one fits with the mid range calculations done based on the flood pod and crater scene and place the Halo universe in a mid tens to mid single digit megaton range. Respectable, but hardly a threat to Star Wars at any level given that the Tsar bomb would be a massive threat and 1960's earth built that.

[Invader Taz]

You wouldn't need them given the light guns on an ISD will frag each ship single shot

WOW! And I thought we agreed that if we go with the low end the Forerunner lose and so we should move onto the more interesting part of the debate?

as from the Halo 3 cutscene low megaton attacks will one hit a Convenant ship.

Hardly. We don't have any idea what damage the carrier's hull had taken and we also know the shields were down because there was no shield flare.

Given that the battle was fought at close range and took seconds that gives plenty of time for each of the hundreds of light guns to pop your shitty ships. Not to mention fighters being launched or using ships designed for rapid fire low powered shots.

Yeah, just keep on wanking there. Covenant/UNSC ships=/=Forerunner ship.

Except I have shown very clearly that this is the case using videos and easy to follow math, you have done no work and shown nothing you retarded donkey raping soon of a syphilitic whore.

No, all you've really done is completely ignore what you don't like in canon becaue you clearly already came to your conclusions. So let me answer somethings now since you don't seem to want to debate the OP:

Halo 3 Scene: Halo 3 shows multi-megaton explosion (Keyship is 14 kilometers as scale against High Charity in Halo 2 and the size of the explosions we see are mutli-kilometer so say 5 MT each) which proves your claim of sub-kiloton wrong. That is a good deal more than the 68 kilotons high end calc for the Halo 2 scene you did. And it gets better. We see they fire multiple shots in that scene which supports my theory they were already under stress from the portal as we see later.

Oh, but your going to go on about shields doing something or fuel cooking off:

1. No reason to believe the shields were up. We see no shield flare at all like we do with Covenant vessels. Also please show an example of shields in other sci-fi that are similar to those of the Covenant making the fireballs larger than they should be.

2. The hull was completely intact so there is no way in which anything could be cooking off. Idiot.

If you are going to try this sort of thing actually watch the scene in question since after shield interactions you just proved you are being biased and are making it so it fits with the extreme low end of Halo which requires us to throw out everything else.

Also since you claim the games must overrule the books because of the ground total of three major battles we see are at close range ( yeah those Covie ships in Halo 2 WERE SO not BvR):

Halo 2 - UNSC ships are ordered to take up defense position around the Orbital Gird in Geo orbit and are seen slowly accelerating towards the Covenant fleet that is BvR as they fire. Note the fact they were ordered to take up defensive positions nearby like at the start of the Battle of Reach so this slow speed is easily explain as them staying near the Orbital Platforms as ordered. And gasp! There are other battles that have this exact same thing happening in TFoR where the UNSC take up position and keep a relatively stationary position against Covenant ships for a time! The start of the Second Battle of Sigma Octanus IV and the start of the Battle of Reach where they were defending the planets! Who would have thought?

Halo 3 - Admiral Hood leads an assault on the Keyship which has them getting in close for the attack. Now there is a perfectly good explanation for the close range nature of these assault: Protection from the Covenant ships.

Halo: The Flood Pg. 8

'Fulsamee touched the light panel in front of him. A symbol
glowed red. "Prepare to fire plasma torpedoes. Launch on my
command."
'Ikaporamee raised both hands in alarm. "Ni! We forbid it.
The human vessel is much too close tothe construct! What
if your weapons were to damage the holy relic? Pursure the - Pg. 9 -

ship, board it, and seize control. Anything else if far too
dangerous."

The Covenant fleet surrounding the Portal can not risk firing on Hood’s fleet without risking damage to the Portal or the Keyship. If they are forced to fire upon an area with relics it will be at reduced firepower output. Given Hood has all the data gain from the Battle of Alpha Halo and at the second battle of Reach he will know about this and use it.

Halo 3 - The Elite Fleet appears out of the Portal close to the Brute Fleet. This doesn't really need to be explain given they were already in close range and the Elite fleet has good reason to get in closer (Give what cover they can to the dropships landing on the Ark).

Except that the ball of fire we see there is clearly not a star you fucking brain damaged slug.

Its a fucking artificial star you idiot. Given it is a ball of hydrogen under going fusion just what should we call it? IT is a fucking star even if it a miniature one.

No stars that small can exist without an outside source holding them together so please do show that that has the same characteristics as a regular main sequence star.

The UNSC has had the theory for sometime now that Slipspace drive + Star = (Super)Nova.

Also you prove that in universe the people in Halo are retarded and don't know their ass from a hole in the ground as if the core was sucked out there would be no iron to rebound from and thus it couldn't be a Super Nova. They didn't know it and you didn't either you ignorant chunk of rectal seepage.

Really, stop being an idiot please. Slipspace causes the stars to explode as Super Nova. Fucking fact as proven with two quotes (game and Enc.).

I'm not putting words in your mouth at all and don't even try to use that fucking rag of an encyclopedia given that it is so wrong in many aspects that it has no value.

Sorry, sorry. Misread that badly there. But please tell me how the Encyclopedia which is fucking canon is wrong (Beyond your whining and say so) because the only thing I've found wrong beyond retarded weapon ranges is the dates are off.

So they have 32 hours to get there and stop you, that's piss easy, given how fast Wars ships move. Then they have to fire a light gun and you die. I see a curb stomping in the making.

Yeah keep on wanking. I'll be sitting here laughing as they Slipspace their asses. See, two can do that. Now we both agreed that S1 was a curbstomp so can we debate something is interesting? Because that is the whole reason I made a scenario that scaled from the Halo Enc.

So you're going to concede that the weapon is worthless as you can provide no numbers besides the no limits fallacy that it can destroy anything. Excellent, one point down, many to go.

IT is a fucking hole in the fabric of fucking space time you idiot. How is it really a no limits fallacy when anything that tends to get too close or touch those disappears into oblivion like what happen to the Prototype Death Star and the Sun Crusher?

So a race that should have had no access to space ships beyond civillian models and possibly a limited number of military craft were able to out pace a full navy and multiple planets worth of Firerunners? That is the definition of fail.

No, a race that have access to mostly civillian models and a limited number of military craft moved from world to world fast enough that the Forerunner forces at the very start of the war after thousands of years of peace couldn't keep up.

Not when they're that piss easy to beat conventionally by simply using two braincells.

Yeah, let me look at the Terminal and what happens once they have a Gravemind. Yep, their not fucking easy to beat conventionally because for each soldier you manage to put on the ground they still outnumber you a thousand to one or any other ratio.

Except that they fail because if it is alive then it should be alive, that was like the old claim that according to physics a fly shouldn't be able to fly.

What part of that did you not get? The Flood makes no sense is what they found and shouldn't be alive. Yet as you said it is.

Also, if your enemy uses no tech and dies to your guns why study them.

You are this fucking brain dead? Did you even play the first Halo game or read The Flood? The Flood was making repairs to both the Pillar of Autumn and the Truth and Reconciliation even when they only had a Proto-Gravemind. Given they have no idea what a second Flood invasion could arrive with they want to study the Flood to find a weakness that can put an end to the war fast.

Why not just nuke whichever planet they hit and go on with life?

So you admit to not even knowing the basics of the Forerunner-Flood War before jumping to conclusions? Good. Because is what they did idiot. The Forerunner first evacuated what they could of the population and when a Forerunner fleet arrived if there wasn't one already there they either completely wiped out the planet's biosphere or set off a Super Nova.

Maybe, maybe not, either way they failed to contain a defeated foe and ultimately lost due to gross stupidity.

1. Failed to contain it? So is that why the Flood had been locked up for 100,000 years before the Covenant and UNSC arrived and let it out? Hell the Covenant manage to lock it away again until Keyes arrived and unleash it for the second time.

2. They didn't lose due to gross stupidity you idiot. They lost because their most fucking advance AI was hacked and turned against them by the Gravemind.

Unless the flood can make ships fly faster that should have been impossible.

The Flood had a head start over the Forerunner fleets and moved from world to world and infected fast enough that normally by the time a proper fleet arrived the Flood had already moved on. Is it really that hard to warp your tiny brain around somethin that simple?

Then again the Forerunners were obviously as brain dead as you are

.
No I think that is you who is brain dead.

Funny, I'm the one that has done math scaled from cutscenes

Cut scenes that are not fucking consistent. Hell, are you going to bring up the great idea again that flaps were used by the Flood to slow down from several thousand kilometers per to several kilometers per second... at the last instant before impact? Really, because the atmosphere would not be able to slow something that fast down in time.

and you jumped to conclusions and bent over backwards to claim that because of... handwave...

No, I study both the games and books and came to my conclusions from using both canon tiers. You just... handwave... don't even want to see if there is a way to reconcile the sources before crying lower tier SURELY must be wrong.

the scenes were all wrong and had to be discarded.

Quote me idiot. Where did I say they were ALL wrong?

Also why would the flood suddenly get worse? Do Forerunners make better food than humans and Covenant or something?

1. More biomass to work with. The Flood in the fucking games only had High Charity and a single Cruiser to work from.

2. Yeah, might have to do with the fact the Flood back then had access to Forerunne technology.

Maybe, however this can only happen if you people are terminally stupid and don't leave the planet before they can be infected. Doing this would deny the flood bodies and food and keep them easy to fight. You know, the smart thing to do.

Yeah, might have to do with the fact there would not be enough ships on single planet to move everyone at once and fast enough.

I was more speaking of when you ignored points before and claimed you missed them.

I did miss them. I'm not lying.

However I understand you're challenged so I'll let it slide.

No that would be you since you can't even understand that if a scene is not internally self-consistent it makes it harder to judge. So mind telling me why the targets they fire at were BvR in Halo 2? Because the fact is that scene can be used both to prove the UNSC have C fractional weapons and low KPS at the same time as it stands right now.

We saw the Super MAC in Halo 2 fire a vastly sub C slug in the video you linked and in that scene it had no reason not to be firing all out so fuck off.

Please tell me where I linked to that scene. Last I checked you were the one who linked to it first. Also see above.

As we can see once again Taz ignores points,

I missed them. Is that really so hard to believe? It happens sometimes.

earlier he tried to hand wave away my calculated numbers,

Try that you ignore the fact the scenes are not even internally self-consistent and simply use the low end.

he has no response to me proving that the projectiles seen weren't missiles

Maybe that is because I pretty much drop the off topic part of the debate and was only suggesting there in my edit those might be Fusion Rockets.

and he generally just argues in circles trying to make the games match the books. In short he is full of shit.

No I take into account all of canon and see if events that on the surface that appear to contradict other sources can be reconciled. If they can not be reconciled I throw out the lower canon and go with higher. Now find instances in top tier canon that can not be in anyway reconciled with lower canon and I will concede on standard Halo ship firepower.

[dragon]

Don't forget they were using MAC rounds against ground targets in HALO Wars.

[Night_stalker]

True, but they were probably using light rounds or something similair, as a heavy slug is mentioned as weghing 600-tons and is fired at 120,000 KPS normally!

[Srelex]

You can't really make any quantification from that, really, owing to gameplay; unless you want to argue that UNSC and Covenant group forces can barely see beyond thirty meters.

[Norade]

You wouldn't need them given the light guns on an ISD will frag each ship single shot

WOW! And I thought we agreed that if we go with the low end the Forerunner lose and so we should move onto the more interesting part of the debate?

Because you have no evidence to show why we should even consider the higher end based on in game cutscenes.

as from the Halo 3 cutscene low megaton attacks will one hit a Convenant ship.

Hardly. We don't have any idea what damage the carrier's hull had taken and we also know the shields were down because there was no shield flare.

Except that as shown in the collision scene from Halo wars those flashes don't always show up so that proves nothing. The same goes for the Spartan versus Elite fight from the same game as we know elites should have shields.

Given that the battle was fought at close range and took seconds that gives plenty of time for each of the hundreds of light guns to pop your shitty ships. Not to mention fighters being launched or using ships designed for rapid fire low powered shots.

Yeah, just keep on wanking there. Covenant/UNSC ships=/=Forerunner ship.

Except I'm not wanking, we know exactly how much firepower an ISD can put out and you can't show any numbers for a Forerunner vessel. Please provide one firm number or one scene we can calculate the power of a Forerunner vessel from. If you can't all we have to go by is the calculations that can be done for durability based on Covenant ships as they use much the same tech. Even if we assume Covenant ships are 100x better than a Covenant ship in toughness we get single digit gigatons at best based on the scenes that we see in the games, and that is at the high end.

Except I have shown very clearly that this is the case using videos and easy to follow math, you have done no work and shown nothing you retarded donkey raping soon of a syphilitic whore.

No, all you've really done is completely ignore what you don't like in canon becaue you clearly already came to your conclusions. So let me answer somethings now since you don't seem to want to debate the OP:

Go fuck yourself, I have done math and you have provided nothing, nor disputed the energy calculations that Srelex and I have put forth. You simply try to find any alternative you can to prove that the games have the same firepower as the books when it doesn't work that way. We have to evaluate the books based on what we see in the games dipshit, yet you can't seem to get that simple point. I also could give a shit less about your shitty OP that nobody even discussed.

Halo 3 Scene: Halo 3 shows multi-megaton explosion (Keyship is 14 kilometers as scale against High Charity in Halo 2 and the size of the explosions we see are mutli-kilometer so say 5 MT each) which proves your claim of sub-kiloton wrong. That is a good deal more than the 68 kilotons high end calc for the Halo 2 scene you did. And it gets better. We see they fire multiple shots in that scene which supports my theory they were already under stress from the portal as we see later.

Please explain how my firepower numbers derived from the Halo to scene was wrong? You claim of missiles or rockets is false as we don't see them accelerate once fired so they must be simple none powered projectiles of some kind. As they must be slugs of some kind, please show how my math is wrong with simple retorting with 'outlier' and using the books to claim higher numbers must be the norm.

Also which scene, the flood pod or the scene with three UNSC ships firing Mac guns?

Oh, but your going to go on about shields doing something or fuel cooking off:

1. No reason to believe the shields were up. We see no shield flare at all like we do with Covenant vessels. Also please show an example of shields in other sci-fi that are similar to those of the Covenant making the fireballs larger than they should be.

They aren't the only explanation for a larger fireball.

2. The hull was completely intact so there is no way in which anything could be cooking off. Idiot.

Which scene are you talking about? I can't debate you if you won't even tell me which scene we are discussing. I ask as we have thus far used two scenes from Halo 3, one of which, doing updated calculations was showed to have a 36 megaton per shot. That is still weak as shit, even going up and unreasonable 100x more we only get 3.5 gigatons which is child's play for an ISD to kill.

If you are going to try this sort of thing actually watch the scene in question since after shield interactions you just proved you are being biased and are making it so it fits with the extreme low end of Halo which requires us to throw out everything else.

Given that I've linked to both scenes I used you must be a dishonest fucker or a retard, I'm leaning towards both. If we use the scene with three UNSC ships firing then all we see is a fireball as the ship explodes. If we go by the flood pod then we see no real explosion at all.

Also since you claim the games must overrule the books because of the ground total of three major battles we see are at close range ( yeah those Covie ships in Halo 2 WERE SO not BvR):

In that case we ignore dialogue and go by what we can see, or do you not know how to debate. Hint, you don't work from a preconceived notion and then adjust the evidence to fit, you look at evidence that can be viewed and throw out the rest that doesn't fit what you can see.

Halo 2 - UNSC ships are ordered to take up defense position around the Orbital Gird in Geo orbit and are seen slowly accelerating towards the Covenant fleet that is BvR as they fire. Note the fact they were ordered to take up defensive positions nearby like at the start of the Battle of Reach so this slow speed is easily explain as them staying near the Orbital Platforms as ordered. And gasp! There are other battles that have this exact same thing happening in TFoR where the UNSC take up position and keep a relatively stationary position against Covenant ships for a time! The start of the Second Battle of Sigma Octanus IV and the start of the Battle of Reach where they were defending the planets! Who would have thought?

Once again using book battles and dialogue to try and prove that things aren't as they are clearly shown. You will notice the battles we see are all fought within kilometers yet hey are supposed to be BVR, looks like the dialogue was wrong. You also can't use the books to try and show that the battles in the games are outliers as they are highest tier cannon. You fail to understand that visuals ? dialogue, games > books.

Halo 3 - Admiral Hood leads an assault on the Keyship which has them getting in close for the attack. Now there is a perfectly good explanation for the close range nature of these assault: Protection from the Covenant ships.

Yes but coupled with all other cases we see them fighting close and firing slow weapons. No matter how you cut it these weapons were fired and expected to do damage and the games show them moving very slowly by the standards of a higher end universe.

Halo: The Flood Pg. 8

'Fulsamee touched the light panel in front of him. A symbol
glowed red. "Prepare to fire plasma torpedoes. Launch on my
command."
'Ikaporamee raised both hands in alarm. "Ni! We forbid it.
The human vessel is much too close tothe construct! What
if your weapons were to damage the holy relic? Pursure the - Pg. 9 -

ship, board it, and seize control. Anything else if far too
dangerous."

The Covenant fleet surrounding the Portal can not risk firing on Hood’s fleet without risking damage to the Portal or the Keyship. If they are forced to fire upon an area with relics it will be at reduced firepower output. Given Hood has all the data gain from the Battle of Alpha Halo and at the second battle of Reach he will know about this and use it.

Halo 3 - The Elite Fleet appears out of the Portal close to the Brute Fleet. This doesn't really need to be explain given they were already in close range and the Elite fleet has good reason to get in closer (Give what cover they can to the dropships landing on the Ark).[/quote]

Still doesn't explain how such slow shots deal killing blows when, if the books have any weight at all, we see sub 40 megaton shots kill a Covenant keyship. As we can also see they describe scenes from the games wrongly as well so anything in them must be taken with a grain of salt.

Except that the ball of fire we see there is clearly not a star you fucking brain damaged slug.

Its a fucking artificial star you idiot. Given it is a ball of hydrogen under going fusion just what should we call it? IT is a fucking star even if it a miniature one.

Yes, but it is not a star as a star can hold together by its own gravity and the thing you showed us couldn't. It is a ball of plasma or a fusion reaction f some sort, not a star of any kind.

No stars that small can exist without an outside source holding them together so please do show that that has the same characteristics as a regular main sequence star.

The UNSC has had the theory for sometime now that Slipspace drive + Star = (Super)Nova.

Yes, but has it ever been tested by them?

Also you prove that in universe the people in Halo are retarded and don't know their ass from a hole in the ground as if the core was sucked out there would be no iron to rebound from and thus it couldn't be a Super Nova. They didn't know it and you didn't either you ignorant chunk of rectal seepage.

Really, stop being an idiot please. Slipspace causes the stars to explode as Super Nova. Fucking fact as proven with two quotes (game and Enc.).

Except that the characters are clearly wrong as, if your assumption about how slip space works is right it should simply suck hydrogen and energy into another dimension and that would cause the star to disappear, thus a slip space portal can't cause a Nova so it must be another effect such as destabilizing the shield that holds the plasma together.

I'm not putting words in your mouth at all and don't even try to use that fucking rag of an encyclopedia given that it is so wrong in many aspects that it has no value.

Sorry, sorry. Misread that badly there. But please tell me how the Encyclopedia which is fucking canon is wrong (Beyond your whining and say so) because the only thing I've found wrong beyond retarded weapon ranges is the dates are off.

Dates are wrong, battles are described wrong, weapons yields are wrong, dates are wrong. Pretty damn much everything is wrong and thus the book can't be used as evidence. When a source gets as much wrong as it does right then you really can't use it as a source.

So they have 32 hours to get there and stop you, that's piss easy, given how fast Wars ships move. Then they have to fire a light gun and you die. I see a curb stomping in the making.

Yeah keep on wanking. I'll be sitting here laughing as they Slipspace their asses. See, two can do that. Now we both agreed that S1 was a curbstomp so can we debate something is interesting? Because that is the whole reason I made a scenario that scaled from the Halo Enc.

No, consider this shitty thread hijacked until you can refute a single claim I have made. You also can't prove how fast the slip space rifts can move, how much mass they can effect, or how far away from a ship they can travel. The only thing that we do know is they take seconds to fully form. I can show numbers for Wars and you have nothing definitive even when you do try to use the Halopedia to define Forerunner tech.

So you're going to concede that the weapon is worthless as you can provide no numbers besides the no limits fallacy that it can destroy anything. Excellent, one point down, many to go.

IT is a fucking hole in the fabric of fucking space time you idiot. How is it really a no limits fallacy when anything that tends to get too close or touch those disappears into oblivion like what happen to the Prototype Death Star and the Sun Crusher?

Except that we have seen cases where miniature black holes have been defeated. Besides, slip space can't by definition violate laws of physics so it must have limits based on energy put in, and size.

So a race that should have had no access to space ships beyond civillian models and possibly a limited number of military craft were able to out pace a full navy and multiple planets worth of Firerunners? That is the definition of fail.

No, a race that have access to mostly civillian models and a limited number of military craft moved from world to world fast enough that the Forerunner forces at the very start of the war after thousands of years of peace couldn't keep up.

Sounds like they were too retarded to even do emergency drills and have plans for large scale disasters.

Not when they're that piss easy to beat conventionally by simply using two braincells.

Yeah, let me look at the Terminal and what happens once they have a Gravemind. Yep, their not fucking easy to beat conventionally because for each soldier you manage to put on the ground they still outnumber you a thousand to one or any other ratio.

Except that they fail because if it is alive then it should be alive, that was like the old claim that according to physics a fly shouldn't be able to fly.

What part of that did you not get? The Flood makes no sense is what they found and shouldn't be alive. Yet as you said it is.

Except that there are alive so they should be alive. What part of this is difficult?

Also, if your enemy uses no tech and dies to your guns why study them.

You are this fucking brain dead? Did you even play the first Halo game or read The Flood? The Flood was making repairs to both the Pillar of Autumn and the Truth and Reconciliation even when they only had a Proto-Gravemind. Given they have no idea what a second Flood invasion could arrive with they want to study the Flood to find a weakness that can put an end to the war fast.

Yes initially they came with no tech and thus we can posit that in future invasions, should they happen they will likely do the same.

Why not just nuke whichever planet they hit and go on with life?

So you admit to not even knowing the basics of the Forerunner-Flood War before jumping to conclusions? Good. Because is what they did idiot. The Forerunner first evacuated what they could of the population and when a Forerunner fleet arrived if there wasn't one already there they either completely wiped out the planet's biosphere or set off a Super Nova.

They should have nuked the first world before it spread to the point where defeat was inevitable. Thus they are retards.

Maybe, maybe not, either way they failed to contain a defeated foe and ultimately lost due to gross stupidity.

1. Failed to contain it? So is that why the Flood had been locked up for 100,000 years before the Covenant and UNSC arrived and let it out? Hell the Covenant manage to lock it away again until Keyes arrived and unleash it for the second time.

There are no Forerunners anymore thus they lost after samples they were studying hacked a computer and broke out.

2. They didn't lose due to gross stupidity you idiot. They lost because their most fucking advance AI was hacked and turned against them by the Gravemind.

They are still limited by how fast they can expand and what fraction of the military they can take. Thus they should be easy to kill in space before they can land on a planet.

Unless the flood can make ships fly faster that should have been impossible.

The Flood had a head start over the Forerunner fleets and moved from world to world and infected fast enough that normally by the time a proper fleet arrived the Flood had already moved on. Is it really that hard to warp your tiny brain around somethin that simple?

You find a planet hit by the flood, thus you jump to the closest worlds and look for signs of infection and start cleansing the planets. You simply need to form a ring around where you expect them to hit next and kill them before they land.

Then again the Forerunners were obviously as brain dead as you are

.
No I think that is you who is brain dead.

Funny, I'm the one doing math and not mindlessly quoting a book for all my numbers.

[Fquote]unny, I'm the one that has done math scaled from cutscenes

Cut scenes that are not fucking consistent. Hell, are you going to bring up the great idea again that flaps were used by the Flood to slow down from several thousand kilometers per to several kilometers per second... at the last instant before impact? Really, because the atmosphere would not be able to slow something that fast down in time.[/quote]

Well given that Occam's razor means we need to compenstae in the simplest way possible we must assume that the pods had some means of slowing themselves down instead off adding an effect never mentioned in the source or the effects of an artifact that has even less support. Quit making shit up and accept that I am doing the math the correct way and in doing so am showing the the numbers across the games are consistant.

and you jumped to conclusions and bent over backwards to claim that because of... handwave...

No, I study both the games and books and came to my conclusions from using both canon tiers. You just... handwave... don't even want to see if there is a way to reconcile the sources before crying lower tier SURELY must be wrong.

Except that the games clearly show battles, firepower, and many other things differently from the games and thus much of the books data must be discarded.

the scenes were all wrong and had to be discarded.

Quote me idiot. Where did I say they were ALL wrong?

If they aren't all wrong, then ships can be damaged by sub megaton, or maybe even subkiloton attacks as a low end and killed by a trio of 36 megaton attacks at the high end. Either way that isn't impressive and means they lose to even Trek.

Also why would the flood suddenly get worse? Do Forerunners make better food than humans and Covenant or something?

1. More biomass to work with. The Flood in the fucking games only had High Charity and a single Cruiser to work from.

Yes and MC was more than a match for hundreds of them as we take gameplay on Legendary as the highest form of cannon. This they are not much of a threat.

2. Yeah, might have to do with the fact the Flood back then had access to Forerunner technology.

The flood shown in Halo have access to Human and Covenant technology and they can still be beaten back by those powers. They have less of an industrial base than what they fight against so even equal tech they still have less ships to fight with.

Maybe, however this can only happen if you people are terminally stupid and don't leave the planet before they can be infected. Doing this would deny the flood bodies and food and keep them easy to fight. You know, the smart thing to do.

Yeah, might have to do with the fact there would not be enough ships on single planet to move everyone at once and fast enough.

Yes, but you don't need to remove everybody even denying some mass and removing all the ships means they can't leave that planet in great numbers. Obviously you;re to stupid to see that though.

[quote

]I was more speaking of when you ignored points before and claimed you missed them.

I did miss them. I'm not lying.[/quote]

Then you're a fucking retard with a memory span that can't even last while you're reading my post and typing point by point replies.

However I understand you're challenged so I'll let it slide.

No that would be you since you can't even understand that if a scene is not internally self-consistent it makes it harder to judge. So mind telling me why the targets they fire at were BvR in Halo 2? Because the fact is that scene can be used both to prove the UNSC have C fractional weapons and low KPS at the same time as it stands right now.

Except that we see that they clearly aren't BVR in the visuals so you have no point ass hat.

We saw the Super MAC in Halo 2 fire a vastly sub C slug in the video you linked and in that scene it had no reason not to be firing all out so fuck off.

Please tell me where I linked to that scene. Last I checked you were the one who linked to it first. Also see above.

No contradiction, we see it fire, it has no reason not to be firing at full power, and we see a vastly sub c slug. Where did I go wrong again?

As we can see once again Taz ignores points,

I missed them. Is that really so hard to believe? It happens sometimes.

I would believe it more if I had ever done it and you hadn't ducked important points instead arguing in circles again.

earlier he tried to hand wave away my calculated numbers,

Try that you ignore the fact the scenes are not even internally self-consistent and simply use the low end.

No, I have shown them to work and you try to use books and dialogue as proof of inconstancy even though that is not how analysis of a visual medium works.

he has no response to me proving that the projectiles seen weren't missiles

Maybe that is because I pretty much drop the off topic part of the debate and was only suggesting there in my edit those might be Fusion Rockets.

Which a cursory glance shows they can't be. You offered no reason why they should be rockets either simply stating that they may be with no further evidence. In fact that is how you have conducted this entire debate. You have no proof that isn't over ridden by game visuals so you have no fucking case.

and he generally just argues in circles trying to make the games match the books. In short he is full of shit.

No I take into account all of canon and see if events that on the surface that appear to contradict other sources can be reconciled. If they can not be reconciled I throw out the lower canon and go with higher. Now find instances in top tier canon that can not be in anyway reconciled with lower canon and I will concede on standard Halo ship firepower.

Except that it doesn't work that way, you don't average cannon, you work from games down analysising that as if the books don't exist and then you look at the books and see what fits. You argue that we should loom from the books up which is clearly wrong. Now fuck off and die you brain dead soon to be titled waste of matter.

[Jake]

For this post I will be using Taz’s scenario 3, that information to be used can be obtained from Ghosts of Onyx and The Halo encyclopedia. Since Taz sent me a reply that an article from Halopedia I will use does not contradict the encyclopedia, it will come into play as well. Before I start my main post, I would like to address Norade on the subject of the canonicity of the books relating to the games. The whole concept of superior canon is explained here. “Often times, one source of canon may say something different than other sources. There are many reasons why this may be so; ranging from a typo to a line taken out of context.” (Halopedia). So, to discount the numbers given in the books as canon, we have to have a direct contradiction aka usually something written or spoken given in the game that disproves those numbers, because only spoken word is uncontestable fact. As we can see by the length of this topic, all contradictions brought up (which all deal with in game scenes, not spoken word from characters) are highly debatable and often come down to an individual’s unique interpretation of an in game scene. What we do know is that there is no, undebateable statement in the games that proves that MAC rounds do not travel at .4c. When cortana, master chief, or any other character explicitly says that MACs have a maximum velocity of #, and that value is different from the one in the books, a contradiction with the superior canon will occur and I will concede anything dealing with MAC speed (unless that value happens to be higher than the one given in the books). If you disagree, it’s ok because I am using scenario 3 anyway, but I just wanted to put out my 2 cents worth on canon policy. P.S. As for your covenant ship getting destroyed by sublight weapons scene I still don’t see it, even after watching your video (which I am already familiar with) twice. Please indicate the time frame and where in the scene said destruction occurs. Also, regarding xess’s crater calculation (which is correct mathematically) you are assuming that the MAC guns are firing at full power, which I already discounted in a previous post.

Ok let’s start the main post. I will attempt to prove, without a doubt, that in an armed conflict between the Forerunner race and the Galactic Empire, the forerunners will triumph. I will start this post with information on star destroyer capabilities from a more recent source than my first post (by popular demand), which is far more generous for the capabilities of an ISD, but as you will see, it won’t matter in the end. First, from http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor ... readnought, an executer class star dreadnought uses half of its power (3.8*10^26W) for its shields. Also, I’m going to be nice and assume the ship uses the other half on weapons (I will consider sensors, life support, maneuvering, etc as negligible because once again, in the end it won’t matter). From the same source, an executer class star dreadnaught has at least 100X the firepower of an imperial 2. Being the likeable guy that I am, I will disregard the ‘at least’ and say it is 100x as powerful. (This will give the imperial 2 its maximum firepower). So, with the given 3.8*10^26W for the executer, an imperial 2 will have 3.8*10^24 W of firepower. Now, from here http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial ... _Destroyer, an imperial 2, henceforth to be referred to as an ISD for laziness, has >9.28*10^24W of power to spare. Hence, subtracting the firepower, it has 9.28*10^24W of shielding. This may seem a like disproportionate power difference between shields and weapons, but if you remember that I am disregarding other systems that require power and simply divvying it up between weapons and shields, it will inevitably result in one being kind of high. Now, an ISD has 70 weapons batteries (the technical answer is 64, but the amount of one type of battery was listed as 26+ so I just gave the total an extra 6 to make a nice even number instead of assuming 26). I am simply going to take the total firepower and average it out of 70 to give the ISD 5.4286*10^22 W of firepower per turret. You may ask why I am not distinguishing between light, medium, heavy, and ion cannon. The answer is that as you will see later, it will be very generous to the star destroyer, as all 70 of its weapons will be able to have a chance at getting kills as opposed to 33 heavy turbolasers and ion cannons (assuming ion cannon effectiveness on the forerunners) with overkill levels of damage and the remaining 37 being relatively ineffective. Now we will move on to the forerunner analysis.

We start, once again, with the MAC gun. A typical human warship MAC gun fires a 600 ton projectile at .4X the speed of light (halo encyclopedia). The energy delivered by this weapon can be found by using the relativistic kinetic energy formula KE= mc^2/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) - mc^2. Using c=3X10^8 m/s, m= 600 ton=609628.2 kg, and v=.4c=1.2X10^8 m/s, the energy released by the weapon is about 5*10^21J of energy. My analysis will diverge slightly from my first post now as I will use a new covenant ship, a covenant destroyer, because there is more information on it and it is the type of ship involved in the Ghosts of Onyx scene that I will soon discuss. According to halopedia, and with the assurances of Invader Taz that this does not contradict the halo encyclopedia (I don’t own it myself), a covenant destroyer’s shields can withstand two MAC guns or one plasma torpedo or one energy projector hit. Its hull can withstand one torpedo or 1+ (which I will assume 2 to make consistent with the first statement) MAC rounds. As such, we can see that one plasma torpedo delivers the equivalent energy of 2 MAC rounds, or 1*10^22J of energy. I will use this later, but for now what is important is that a covenant destroyer can withstand four plasma torpedoes, or 4*10^22 J of energy. Now I know what you’re thinking, that the ISD can 1 hit KO our covenant destroyer and you would be correct. However, a covenant destroyer is not what our ISDs will be fighting. They will be fighting something that is decidedly forerunner, if you get my drift. That comes in the next paragraph.

In the book Ghost of onyx, a covenant destroyer captured by Spartans encounters some of onyx’s defense sentinels. 49 of these sentinels combine to form a ‘super sentinel’ (that’s my name for the compound sentinel, not the books) and the following happens:
“Back us off, Will,” he ordered.“Something’s happening,” Linda said.
The image in the viewer zoomed in on a cluster of the space-craft. Seven of them moved into a line. The view pulled back and revealed other identical formations. Seven of these lines stacked into an elongated triangle, and the Spheres within the forty-nine-craft pattern glowed red-hot.“Hard to port!” Fred cried. “Emergency power to shields.”The deck tilted.“Answering hard to port,” Will cried. A blast of golden light overwhelmed the image in the viewer. The frame of Bloodied Sprite resounded like it had been Struck with a hammer. The artificial gravity failed and Fred gripped the railing. Starboard side hit,” Will said. “Shields destroyed.” Fred moved his hand over his console and Bloodied Sprite appeared on the viewer. A gaping crater of blue hull armor smoldered white-hot. Crystalline electronics crackled, and severed plasma lines spewed fire. As the ship turned, Fred saw the hole was five decks across and had punched clean through to the port Side.

Essentially, one supersentinel consisting of 49 individual sentinels fire a directed energy weapon that 1 hit KOs a shielded covenant destroyer and therefore puts out 4*10^22J of energy. But an ISD can counter with 9.28*10^24 J of shielding you say. It would take 232 supersentinels, or 11,368 sentinels to kill one ISD you say. Where can we possibly find enough sentinels to destroy the empire’s 25,000 ISDs? As the covenant would say, “ask and the forerunners provideth” (or something to that nature).

“Onyx shattered and the surface exploded into space. Obscured by layers of dust and fire, a blazing pattern of lines emerged from beneath: crosses and lines and dots. … The view on screen blinked and stepped closer-past boiling air, clouds, tumbling mountains- zooming to ground level, revealing a lattice of three meter long rods and half meter blazing red spheres that hovered between them, forming a crystalline structure. … The view pulled back and showed that this drone constructed scaffolding stretched over kilometers. . .they had been under every landmass, every ocean… under the entire surface, ordered linked rows like carbon bonds of an infinite polymer chain, or an immense colony of living, interlinked army ants. The drones were the planet Onyx. “There are trillions of them,” (GoO 377/8)

So now we know that one forerunner shield world is actually trillions of sentinels. Lets try to determine how many trillion. The forerunner sentinels are described to be the planet onyx, so we can assume it is mostly drone. In fact, no mantle is described in the scene and onyx has no tectonic activity, so we can assume onyx is made up of a crust and drones. On earth, the crust makes up around 1% of the total volume of the planet, so I will assume that onyx is 99% drone. The earth’s volume is 1.08321*10^15 m^3. Assuming Onyx has the same volume as the earth and that drones can be modeled as spheres with radius 1.75m, and using the sphere volume formula (4/3)*pi*r^3, we can calculated the number of sentinels as roughly 4.82513985*10^13, or 48.25 trillion sentinels. Now, with the information that 11,368 sentinels (or 232 supersentinels) are needed to take out an ISD, simple division states that the sentinels of one forerunner shield world have the energy capacity to destroy 4,244,493,183 imperial 2 type star destroyers. However, since there are only 25,000 star destroyers, forerunners using one shield world’s complement of sentinels can allocate 1,930,055,940 sentinels, or 39,388,896 supersentinels (with a few extra regular ones) to each ISD.

Many imperial loyalists, however, will note that the ISDs will undoubtedly shoot back. This is all well and good, and I even calculated using a 1000 sentinel strong supersentinel’s resistance to energy projectors that one hit from one of my ISD’s average power turbolasers will destroy said sentinel. You can see why I averaged out the power among all of the lasers earlier, to give the ISD an advantage, since light turbolasers are now effective. However, the sheer number of sentinels mean that even an ISD with 70 one hit kill turbolasers does not have a chance. First off, we need the firing rate. From the beginning of A New Hope, we see about 15 turbo laser shots from the time frame 1:58 to 2:03. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASYW3P3t208) Assuming that this all comes from one turbolaser (which it obviously doesn’t, but I’m feeling generous), we see that a turbolaser can fire at a rate of 3 shots/sec. This means an entire ISD can fire at a rate of 210 shots/sec, and assuming perfect accuracy, destroy 210 supersentinels/sec. Remember that it takes 232 supersentinels to destroy an ISD in one salvo, so our ISD needs to destroy all but 231 or 39,388,665 for victory in the name of the emporer. The time it take to do this would come out to 187,565 sec or 52.1 hrs or 2.17 days. So, congratulations ISD, if less than 232 out of 40 million supersentinels get a shot off in 2.17 days, you win.

Not convinced yet? By act of Q all 25,000 ISDs are replaced by executer class star dreadnoughts. Using the already mentioned shield strength of an executor, it will take 9500 supersentinels to take one out. An executer class has 4750 TLs, (500 of these are point defense laser cannons but honestly it doesn’t matter). http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor ... readnought . Keeping all assumptions of the ISD, an executor class star dreadnought can kill 14,250 supersentinels/sec. It needs to kill all but 9499 or 39379166 supersentinels (note that for this I’m not even giving the sentinels the chance to fire more than once). To do this, the executor has to last 2763 seconds, or 46 minutes. So unless it takes 46 minutes for .02% of the forerunner force to fire, our 25,000 executer strong uber empire loses quite handily.

If imperial loyalists have any argument left, it will be there hyperdrive. It is fast, extremely fast. According to Solauren’s post in this debate, imperial hyperdrive allows their ships to travel at least 10,000 Ly/hr. Is it enough? No I don’t think so. In the final battle of the forerunner flood war, flood turned forerunner AI mendicant bias tries to reach the ark to preserve the flood from the firing of the halo arrays. In the sixth and seventh terminals of halo 3, (you can read it here: I recommend reading the seventh first, then the sixth, as this is chronologically correct http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Terminals) mendicant bias’s fleet engages the forerunner defenders of the maginot sphere under offensive bias in an attempt to reach the ark and stop the activation of the halo array. On the sixth terminal, a countdown to the activation of the ring is given at various points throughout the battle. At the beginning, if the battle, it is stated that the rings will fire in 12hr20min. For the most conservative estimation of forerunner ftl, we assume that mendicant bias does not expect a battle to occur and therefore thinks it will be a straight run to the portal to the ark. If this were the case, it would take a maximum of 12hr20 min to reach the ark, although in reality less, because he has to deactivate it when he gets there. Using this estimate, it takes 12hr20min to travel 2^18 LY, meaning forerunner portal ftl can reach up to 21,254.92ly/hr, which is twice the speed of an imperial hyperdrive. However, if mendicant bias expected a battle, which is very likely, and still expected to have time to reach the ark and disable it, it would suggest that forerunner ftl is even faster than this estimate. This also assumes that the battle takes place over earth, which was never stated, and if it does not, then mendicant bias has an even longer distance to travel before reaching the ark.

Ok, to sum it up, the security drones that make up one forerunner shield world have the capability to destroy an imperial fleet as powerful as 25,000 executer star dreadnoughts and most likely still have trillions of drones intact. The only hope the imperials really have is their hyperdrive, and this hope really stems from the fact that the forerunner ftl capabilities are largely unknown. However, if my interpretation of the terminals holds any merit, then even this advantage is nullified 2 to 1 at the most conservative. To me, the empire in this forum is something of a bully. After kicking trek’s ass it thinks it’s the biggest kid in the playground, but in my opinion the forerunners prove that there is always someone bigger.

[Night_stalker]

OK, nice job. It's not often that we have new user who are very willing and capable of doing that sort of work. I take my hat off to you good sir.

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah...keep sucking off cock, NS.

So

1. This still does not even begin to answer the OP question. Which is placing the Forerunner's in SW and what will happen. So, are either of you chuckleheads going to give any examples? Or are we going to spew firepower numbers that are taken out of context?

2. I mean given you essentially are using random notes of what you consider evidence(only 25K ISDs? Given what we've seen manufacturing of the Death Star 1&2 alone gives the notion that is Pelleon talking out his ass.) and making your conclusions on firepower(Given they have noted ISDs can funnel more then 75% of reactor into said Heavy TL) based on your own suppositions.

So again we are back to square one. You two are making your own conclusions, demanding people agree and still not answering your own topic so you can circle jerk to mythical numbers of the Forerunners. Hell, this really is no different then what the most retarded of debators do. They cherry pick specific evidence, note singular examples, apply it everywhere without any notion of situation, and finally presume the opponents are essentially standing there ready to get raped without lube.

And of note? This the same race that lost to the Flood. Which as an enemy were not much better then space zombies. Really, they win rewards for failure given they had FTL and massive destructive capabilites but were unable to handle an enemy that had neither, which lead to their eventual suicide.

[Invader Taz]

Because you have no evidence to show why we should even consider the higher end based on in game cutscenes.

My fucking thread idiot. I am the OP and have set up three Scenarios because you whine I can't do that to make an interesting debate becasue... I guess Star Wars might lose instead of a curbstomp. Or something. Or your doing is trolling at this point it seems.

Except that as shown in the collision scene from Halo wars those flashes don't always show up so that proves nothing.

Prove the fucking shields were up first. Given that Covenant ship wasn't in combat and the SoF took it by surprise it is more likely the shields were be down. Occam’s Razor favors me here given every other time shields are hit they flare.

The same goes for the Spartan versus Elite fight from the same game as we know elites should have shields.

I'll have to watch the cutscene again later but as I recall they clearly didn't have shields on for some strange reason.

Except I'm not wanking, we know exactly how much firepower an ISD can put out and you can't show any numbers for a Forerunner vessel. Please provide one firm number or one scene we can calculate the power of a Forerunner vessel from. If you can't all we have to go by is the calculations that can be done for durability based on Covenant ships as they use much the same tech. Even if we assume Covenant ships are 100x better than a Covenant ship in toughness we get single digit gigatons at best based on the scenes that we see in the games, and that is at the high end.

The quotes on what happen to the Covenant Destroyers in GoO are a good place to start I'd say.

And it appears S3 has been answered. Thank you, Jake.

Go fuck yourself, I have done math and you have provided nothing,

I have provided fucking quotes and links you idiot. I have pointed out how everything can easily be reconciled but you seemed to have been set on the low end retard numbers at least at first. Appears you have realized just how retarded it is for MAC's to be sub-KT.

nor disputed the energy calculations that Srelex and I have put forth.

Your math is right. I dispute that these cuts scenes are accurate for anything but low to mid end because they two of them are not self-consistent and the other one is possibly being effected by a Forerunner relic.

You simply try to find any alternative you can to prove that the games have the same firepower as the books when it doesn't work that way.

Apparently you don’t have the reading skills needed to understand the English language and what I am saying: YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ALL OF CANON AND WHERE THERE ARE CONTRADICTIONS YOU FIRST TRY AND RECONCILE THEM WITH HIGHER CANON BEFORE THROWING THEM OUT. I HAVE FOUND HOW EVERYTHING YOU HAVE PUT UP SO FAR CAN RECONCILE AND ALL YOU DO IS SAY WE SHOULD IGNORE THE BOOKS WITHOUT FIRST SEEING IF IT CAN BE RECONCILED WITH HIGHER CANON.

We have to evaluate the books based on what we see in the games dipshit, yet you can't seem to get that simple point. I also could give a shit less about your shitty OP that nobody even discussed.

No numskull, you look at all of canon and try and reconcile both canon tiers first. If that proves impossible then higher canon wins. So far you have put up nothing that can not be reconciled. But given how dense your skull is and the lack of reading skills I expect you to not get the point.

Please explain how my firepower numbers derived from the Halo to scene was wrong?

The math is accurate but based upon a scene that is not internally self-consistent. When Cortana goes loud the UNSC fleet opens up at the same time and the Covenant ships are STILL BvR. Care to explain how these slow ass rounds can possibly hit anything at BvR without the crew of the Covenant ships being retarded beyond what we see in Trek and having the most piss poor acceleration in all of Sci-fi?

You claim of missiles or rockets is false as we don't see them accelerate once fired so they must be simple none powered projectiles of some kind. As they must be slugs of some kind, please show how my math is wrong with simple retorting with 'outlier' and using the books to claim higher numbers must be the norm.

All I did was suggest it might be the Fusion Rockets. But I will drop it since after checking the entry on Fusion Rockets I was mistaken on their acceleration rate. Also I can simply point out how it is wrong: When the SMAC platform opens fire along with the UNSC ships around it you can't see the giant multi-kilometer Covenant ships still.

Also which scene, the flood pod or the scene with three UNSC ships firing Mac guns?

The scene with the Keyship being fired upon.

They aren't the only explanation for a larger fireball.

Fine.

2. The hull was completely intact so there is no way in which anything could be cooking off. Idiot.

Which scene are you talking about? I can't debate you if you won't even tell me which scene we are discussing.

It should be pretty obvious I'm taking about the scene from The Storm given the Flood pod didn't cause a fireball.

I ask as we have thus far used two scenes from Halo 3, one of which, doing updated calculations was showed to have a 36 megaton per shot. That is still weak as shit, even going up and unreasonable 100x more we only get 3.5 gigatons which is child's play for an ISD to kill.

And 36 Mt is ok with me going strictly by the games. But you seem to be missing the whole point his debate was suppose to have moved onto the more interesting Scenarios 2 and 3 given we BOTH agreed even at best going strictly by the games the Forerunners ultimately get Bolostomped.

Given that I've linked to both scenes I used you must be a dishonest fucker or a retard, I'm leaning towards both. If we use the scene with three UNSC ships firing then all we see is a fireball as the ship explodes. If we go by the flood pod then we see no real explosion at all.

The goddamn Keyship was COMPLETELY INTACT after that MAC strike. Where you keep getting the idea we ever see a ship destroyed by MAC rounds in the games I do not know. And once again let us note that standard MAC charge times are 30-60 seconds so the fact they fire multiple rounds in a shot period which supports that the Portal Artifact was already putting stress on their reactors.

In that case we ignore dialogue and go by what we can see, or do you not know how to debate.

So first off I guess that thoese Covenant ships were not really BvR when the SMAC platform and fleet opened fire. I also guess we assume Keyes and the UNSC's most advance AI, and later a Vice Admiral, are complete retards and were wrong all those times they mention ranges and we are given numbers for how fast they accelerate across X distance. Guess what idiot, I have reconcile the distances we have seen in the games and we even have events play out similarly in TFoR to what happens in Halo 2.

Hint, you don't work from a preconceived notion and then adjust the evidence to fit, you look at evidence that can be viewed and throw out the rest that doesn't fit what you can see.

Isn't that pretty much what I've been fucking saying? I look at all the evidence and we see there that Halo 2 is similar to what happens in TFoR.

Once again using book battles and dialogue to try and prove that things aren't as they are clearly shown.

Apparently I need to put this in bold and underline it so you weak eyes can understand this events play out at the start just like what happen in Halo 2:

And gasp! There are other battles that have this exact same thing happening in TFoR where the UNSC take up position and keep a relatively stationary position against Covenant ships for a time! The start of the Second Battle of Sigma Octanus IV and the start of the Battle of Reach where they were defending the planets! Who would have thought?

That clear enough for you now? Two battles in TFoR that have a UNSC fleet in defense of a planet with the ships holding position in a specific area as ordered. Sigma Octanus IV has the UNSC fleet hold position until the Admiral gives the orders to engage at well after the Cradle sacrificed itself to protect the Fleet from the Plasma bombardment. Start of the Battle of Reach is the same except there were 2-3 repair stations moving in front of the SMAC platforms and UNSC fleet before they broke to engage at well.

You will notice the battles we see are all fought within kilometers yet hey are supposed to be BVR, looks like the dialogue was wrong.

And care to explain why we can't see the Covenant ships in Halo 2 until they have already pass by? Because we can't see anything when they open fire last I checked. So either that battle supports BvR or it doesn't. Until we get a soild number from a book or 343 on this nothing is conclusive based on that scene.

You also can't use the books to try and show that the battles in the games are outliers as they are highest tier cannon.

Let me see yet again:
Halo 2 - BvR targets are being shot at with weapons fire that barely moves above a kilometer per second.
Halo 3 - Hood moves the last of the UNSC Home Fleet into close range around the Keyship so the Covenant fleet can not risk destroying him without harming the Portal. Care to explain how that would be an outlier given it is a perfectly sensible to do so you don't get shot of the air at long range?
Halo 3 - The Covenant Separatist fleet arrives above the Ark within visual range of the Loyalist fleet. The Separatist fleet moves in to engage and provide cover to the dropships that head to the Ark. This doesn't really need to be explain given they started out at close range as it was.

It can all be reconciled with the books. You need to understand that you don't throw out canon if it can be reconciled. Find me one event in the games that is impossible to reconcile and I will concede.

You fail to understand that visuals ? dialogue, games > books.

No, you faill to understand that you don't throw out canon unless it is contradicted in such a way that it can not be reconciled.

Yes but coupled with all other cases we see them fighting close and firing slow weapons.

Yeah, I think I reconciled all that really.

No matter how you cut it these weapons were fired and expected to do damage and the games show them moving very slowly by the standards of a higher end universe.

And given the number of shots fired and the rate at which they were fired my position of power already being drain by the Portal at the start of the scene can stand. The only scene at this point that stands out is Halo 2 and given the fact at least some of the rounds we see fired are not MAC rounds but lighter weapons it can still be reconile.

Still doesn't explain how such slow shots deal killing blows when, if the books have any weight at all, we see sub 40 megaton shots kill a Covenant keyship.

You truly are retarded. WHERE THE FUCK DID THE SUB 40 MT MAC ROUNDS KILL THE FORERUNNER KEYSHIP IN THAT SCENE. ANYONE THAT ISN'T BLIND CAN TELL IT WAS COMPLETELY INTACT AFTER THAT STRIKE.

As we can also see they describe scenes from the games wrongly as well so anything in them must be taken with a grain of salt.

Quote where the books have described scenes from the games wrong? And slight changes in dialogue like in The Flood is not going to carry much weight for that claim.

Yes, but it is not a star as a star can hold together by its own gravity and the thing you showed us couldn't. It is a ball of plasma or a fusion reaction f some sort, not a star of any kind.

Fine, I'll just refer to it as a mini-star from now on so we don't get dragged into another semantics debate.

Yes, but has it ever been tested by them?

Not until Halo Wars. The closest thing we ever got to the UNSC creating a Nova is when Colo threw a 100+ Shiva Warheads into a gas giant that was just below the threshold to become a star which caused it to explode and take out a Covenant fleet of 200-300 ships, this left the planet in question a cinder. I don't have the book myself though so if you want the quote on this I'll have to go dig out the thread it was in.

Except that the characters are clearly wrong as, if your assumption about how slip space works is right it should simply suck hydrogen and energy into another dimension and that would cause the star to disappear, thus a slip space portal can't cause a Nova so it must be another effect such as destabilizing the shield that holds the plasma together.

Slipspace does strange stuff a lot of times. I completely agree here, I just recalled that in First Strike when a Slipspace portal was open in the atmopshere of the gas giant Alpha Halo orbited it sucked in some of the atmosphere.

Dates are wrong, battles are described wrong, weapons yields are wrong, dates are wrong. Pretty damn much everything is wrong and thus the book can't be used as evidence. When a source gets as much wrong as it does right then you really can't use it as a source.

Point me to where it described the battles wrong (The Halo Encyclopedia as more recent canon CAN change how the events played out in the older novels such as the new versions of the first Halo trilogy coming out in a few months will) please point to where weapons yields are wrong beyond the stated MAC and SMAC speeds of 40% and 50% the Speed of Light. The only thing I have found wrong as I said is the dates, and depending on how you look at it the very retarded weapons ranges.

No, consider this shitty thread hijacked until you can refute a single claim I have made.

So you admit to being a troll and are now hijacking the thread? And I have shown how what we see is not conclusive.

You also can't prove how fast the slip space rifts can move,

I thought I already answered this? It is a static hole opened up in the very fabric of space-time in or near the target.

how much mass they can effect,

Looking at the Terminals Forerunner Dreadnoughts are stated to be 37,000 tons.

or how far away from a ship they can travel.

At least hunderds to thousands of kilometers going by the books allowed in S2 and S3. And don't give me any more BS because S1 has the games overruling them (:roll:) and they don't go beyond a few kilometers because of that.

The only thing that we do know is they take seconds to fully form. I can show numbers for Wars and you have nothing definitive even when you do try to use the Halopedia to define Forerunner tech.

I'd say at this point it is definitive enough.

Except that we have seen cases where miniature black holes have been defeated. Besides, slip space can't by definition violate laws of physics so it must have limits based on energy put in, and size.

This type of Slipspace rift causes the laws of physics to break down near it. Though given what we know I agree the size is limited by how much energy the Forerunner ships could proivde for it.

Sounds like they were too retarded to even do emergency drills and have plans for large scale disasters.

Yeah because an unknown enemy appearing out of nowhere with an amount of force we still know nothing about is so going to a disaster they were ready for.

Not when they're that piss easy to beat conventionally by simply using two braincells.

Yeah, let me look at the Terminal and what happens once they have a Gravemind. Yep, their not fucking easy to beat conventionally because for each soldier you manage to put on the ground they still outnumber you a thousand to one or any other ratio.[/quote]
Wow, missed this did you? Excuse me will I now laugh long and hard.

Except that there are alive so they should be alive. What part of this is difficult?

None. What I am saying is the end results of what the Forerunner learned was that the Flood shouldn't be alived. It is nothing like any other known life form and as far they could tell.

Yes initially they came with no tech and thus we can posit that in future invasions, should they happen they will likely do the same.

Only a fool makes that of mistake. You prepare for everything that could possible happen. That includes a second invasion that is backed up a more technological advance Flood with even more resources available at the start of the war.

They should have nuked the first world before it spread to the point where defeat was inevitable. Thus they are retards.

The Flood first captured a science ship on an out of the way planet and from there landed on another world. The Forerunners were taken by surpise but didn't consider the Flood a great enough threat at that point to go all out and only did limited bombing at first. Of course they found out the hard way the Flood was far more deadly than they thought at first.

What you are saying here is the US should nuke one of it's major citites because there is a zombie out break without first evacuating as much as the population as possible out of the infected area.

There are no Forerunners anymore thus they lost after samples they were studying hacked a computer and broke out.

You are not even making sense at this point. Where did this happen? Please give me the quote to where the Forerunners lose because what they were studying broke out. MB was sent to learn the weakness of the Gravemind, a Gravemind which had an unknown but vast computing power from the minds of trillions of beings and any capture Forerunner computers/AIs. The Gravemind hack MB and turned him against them. The Forerunners mistake final mistake was overestimating how powerful their Contender class-AI was.

They are still limited by how fast they can expand and what fraction of the military they can take. Thus they should be easy to kill in space before they can land on a planet.

And the Flood expand fast enough at the start they couldn't keep up. The Forerunners rarely lost in space, but the Flood still manage to slip through orbiting ships by sheer numbers.

You find a planet hit by the flood, thus you jump to the closest worlds and look for signs of infection and start cleansing the planets. You simply need to form a ring around where you expect them to hit next and kill them before they land.

And have the Gravemind strike where your fleets are not located once it learns what you are doing. The Gravemind is not stupid.

Funny, I'm the one doing math and not mindlessly quoting a book for all my numbers.

Funny, I'm the one who takes into account all of the canon and notes that nothing is completely conclusive.

Well given that Occam's razor means we need to compenstae in the simplest way possible we must assume that the pods had some means of slowing themselves down instead off adding an effect never mentioned in the source or the effects of an artifact that has even less support. Quit making shit up and accept that I am doing the math the correct way and in doing so am showing the the numbers across the games are consistant.

Which of course explains why the pod did not burn up even slightly and why there was massive amount of heat visible from the sudden massive deceleration in atmosphere you would expect. And if you note I haven't said the math is wrong, I am pointing out the cut scenes we see outside of the Halo 2 one all either have Slipspace or a Forerunner relic involved in some form. And fuck off on the relic, in the scene where they attack the Keyship we see the portal have a visible effect on all the UNSC ships there.

Except that the games clearly show battles, firepower, and many other things differently from the games and thus much of the books data must be discarded.

I'm sorry but I believe I manage to reconcile the sources.

If they aren't all wrong, then ships can be damaged by sub megaton, or maybe even subkiloton attacks as a low end and killed by a trio of 36 megaton attacks at the high end. Either way that isn't impressive and means they lose to even Trek.

Yes and MC was more than a match for hundreds of them as we take gameplay on Legendary as the highest form of cannon. This they are not much of a threat.

Point me to where he faced hundreds at ONCE.

The flood shown in Halo have access to Human and Covenant technology and they can still be beaten back by those powers. They have less of an industrial base than what they fight against so even equal tech they still have less ships to fight with.

Barely. Even on Alpha Halo the Flood was overruning the Covenant and was forcing them to flee from the ring.

Yes, but you don't need to remove everybody even denying some mass and removing all the ships means they can't leave that planet in great numbers.

Slipspace teleportation tech. The Flood once they land can teleaport to anywhere pretty much like the Forerunners can and therefore cut off their escape route if they get there fast enough with enough numbers.

Except that we see that they clearly aren't BVR in the visuals so you have no point ass hat.

Halo fucking 2 the Covenant ships are BvR when the SMAC's and Home Fleet open fire.

No contradiction, we see it fire, it has no reason not to be firing at full power, and we see a vastly sub c slug. Where did I go wrong again?

By missing the fact you can't even see the target on screen. They are BvR when the SMAC opens up so the speed this weapons are moving at can not hit a target unless the crew of the target is retarded and has the most piss power acceleration ever seen. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I would believe it more if I had ever done it and you hadn't ducked important points instead arguing in circles again

.
Sorry, still laughing here.

No, I have shown them to work and you try to use books and dialogue as proof of inconstancy even though that is not how analysis of a visual medium works.

I have shown that the Halo 2 scene makes no sense since we can't see the targets they fire against even with a clear view of the big void of space and yet nothing can be seen of what their shooting at. And the other two scenes are suspect simply for the fact the first one is possibly being effected by the Portal already, and the second one just isn’t working given the starting speed of the pod and also the fact we see another one bounce off along with the fact we have no idea just how much damage the Carrier took in the battle.

Which a cursory glance shows they can't be. You offered no reason why they should be rockets either simply stating that they may be with no further evidence.

And as I said above I was mistaken because I misremembered the acceleration rate given.

In fact that is how you have conducted this entire debate. You have no proof that isn't over ridden by game visuals so you have no fucking case.

Right. I think I've shown that no contradictions have to exist and their suspect at best in two of those scenes.

Except that it doesn't work that way, you don't average cannon, you work from games down analysising that as if the books don't exist and then you look at the books and see what fits.

And that stops us from also noticing that there doesn't need to be any contradiction between the two canon tiers how? Because it is rather easy to reconcile everything in those scenes.

You argue that we should loom from the books up which is clearly wrong.

Wrong you waste of air. I look at both tiers of canon and note where there are what at least appear to be contradictions and see first if they can't be reconciled. If they can be that is what you do. If they can't higher canon throws out the lower source. You have showed nothing that can not be reconciled.

1. This still does not even begin to answer the OP question. Which is placing the Forerunner's in SW and what will happen. So, are either of you chuckleheads going to give any examples? Or are we going to spew firepower numbers that are taken out of context?

I would like to point out he did just answer the OP since this is Forerunner Vs. GE. Also what firepower numbers taken out of context please? All those quotes from the Halo books are in context.

So again we are back to square one. You two are making your own conclusions, demanding people agree and still not answering your own topic so you can circle jerk to mythical numbers of the Forerunners. Hell, this really is no different then what the most retarded of debators do. They cherry pick specific evidence, note singular examples, apply it everywhere without any notion of situation, and finally presume the opponents are essentially standing there ready to get raped without lube.

1. Making conclusions based off of canon information and for the scenario in question.

2. I have not demanded anyone agree with me. I point out that there are things that make no sense in the cut scenes and that this parts are suspect at best and are good at least as a low end until we get a conclusive answer either by reliable visuals (without it possibly being messed up by Slipspace or Forerunner devices) or dialogue.

3. This is the point at which I point out Norade has openly admitted to hijacking the thread and is trolling at this point.

4. Please point to where I have made mistakes here. I will do what I can to improve my future posts based on it. As far as I can see at this late hour I have simply shown that the scenes Norade has used are no cut and clear once you look at all of canon.

And of note? This the same race that lost to the Flood. Which as an enemy were not much better then space zombies. Really, they win rewards for failure given they had FTL and massive destructive capabilites but were unable to handle an enemy that had neither, which lead to their eventual suicide.

And as pointed in the OP the Forerunner have learned their lesson on not taking a space zombie outbreak seriously at first.

[Night_stalker]

Give it a rest, you can't argue with stupid.