Which science fiction universe has the worst tactics?

[adam_grif]

New theory:

The aliens from Signs are actually a primitive hunter-gatherer species with no technology, and the space-ship aliens actually never landed. They dropped them off on the planet because they hate them.

[MysteriousDarkLordv3]

I had been analyzing the combats of the original Battlestar Galactica series. I know - looking for logic and consistency in a 1970's TV series? I admit it does smack of masochism on my part. But I had noticed things that led to some logical conclusions - namely that the entire pattern of warfare had been warped by a super-science gadget that twisted military matters in favor of individual soldiers. In oBSG, that was a type of force-field technology referenced on-screen only a few times. From deduction, I'd say that it diffused EM energies over a certain level. This forced combat at ridiculously close ranges, weakened the plasma bolts used until they exploded in empty space, and forced the Cylons to do silly things like wear armor for partial protection against the effect (not fully useful) and make ramming attacks against human ships.

All science-fiction warfare can be looked at through the notion that warfare has been warped by super-science in irrational directions. Star Trek warfare has been warped by easy-escape transporters to the point where no one knows anything about ground tactics anymore. WH40K has been warped by insane levels of kaboomite and dakka (plus religious fanaticism on all fronts) into meat-grinder kill-gasms. The Mechwarrior reality was warped by premature super-science that made them think that giant robots were the only way to go. And Star Wars was warped by over-reliance first on magic Jedi warriors, then on mass-produced clones, screwing up their idea of what soldiers are actually supposed to do (namely be neither heroes nor cannon-fodder).

All this might be equally due to the ignorance of the writers or the inability of the writers to actually think through the consequences of their settings. But I like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, and in defense of Starship Troopers the novel, Heinlein was a squid. He was neither a grunt nor a jarhead. So why should he have any idea what foot-soldiers do? Of course, the movie people could have hired some military consultants, so they have no excuse.

[Temujin]

At one point Mel Gibson's son declares "They're good problem solvers!" because they tried to find a way to go around a door barricaded with wood. If they were good problem solvers they'd be able to breach a farmer's house.

Of course "They're good [FUCKING] problem solvers", at somepoint they've clearly mastered interstellar fucking travel!

But no - apparently a door is a bigger obstacle than that.

Yeah, they make Phantom and the Chickenmen from planet Krankor look downright competent.

Signs Alien 1: Shit, they went into the house!

Signs Alien 2: Well go in after them!

Alien 1: But they shut the door!

Alien 2: Damn! Well, try opening it with that knobby thing.

Alien 1: It won't budge. I think they locked it.

Alien 2: Frak! Well see if they have another door. And try those windowy things.

Later, after trying all the doors and window.

Alien 1: No good boss, it's like Fort Knox.

Alien 2: Number 21 and Number 24, go try the spetic system. Number 23, try the chimney. We have to get in there or the invasion is history.

[eyl]

Well, let's see. Their major military SF writers are... what, Weber, Drake, Ringo, and Flint? Maybe one or two others I'm not familiar with.

Flint I can see being bad, though no specific examples charge into my mind. Weber isn't exactly stellar, but is he bad?

It depends on your definitions, of course, but I don't think Eric Flint can be properly classified as a military SF writer.

[Swindle1984]

In fairness, the Starship Troopers movie isn't supposed to be taken that seriously (and the book can go screw itself).

HERESY!

The book was fantastic. The movie... not so much.

And I don't care if the movie was "not supposed to be taken that seriously" or not, the humans are retarded. Weapons with no sights on most of them? Check. Small-caliber assault rifles that require multiple magazines dumped into the enemy instead of, I dunno, better suited weapons? Check. Idiotic charging in with no plan, tactics, air support, armor support, heavy weapons, artillery, or even scouting out the area first? Check. Crowding your ships so close together that they run into each other and explode while performing evasive maneuvers? Check. Putting the "turbo button" behind a glass panel you have to smash on a military ship and waiting until the last second to use it? Check.

Hey look, we got a BINGO in Are You A Complete Fucking Idiot for the Starship Troopers military. Whereas in the novel, they were far less retarded.

[Swindle1984]

At one point Mel Gibson's son declares "They're good problem solvers!" because they tried to find a way to go around a door barricaded with wood. If they were good problem solvers they'd be able to breach a farmer's house.

Of course "They're good [FUCKING] problem solvers", at somepoint they've clearly mastered interstellar fucking travel!

But no - apparently a door is a bigger obstacle than that.

Yeah, they make Phantom and the Chickenmen from planet Krankor look downright competent.

Signs Alien 1: Shit, they went into the house!

Signs Alien 2: Well go in after them!

Alien 1: But they shut the door!

Alien 2: Damn! Well, try opening it with that knobby thing.

Alien 1: It won't budge. I think they locked it.

Alien 2: Frak! Well see if they have another door. And try those windowy things.

Later, after trying all the doors and window.

Alien 1: No good boss, it's like Fort Knox.

Alien 2: Number 21 and Number 24, go try the spetic system. Number 23, try the chimney. We have to get in there or the invasion is history.

Not only was this retarded, along with the whole "we die if exposed to water while running around naked and breathing air full of the stuff" thing, but I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a single shotgun in that farmhouse that they could have used. Really, everyone in this movie was an idiot.

And if I recall correctly, didn't the news in the movie announce that they'd found some sort of solution to the aliens in the Middle East? Yeah, it's called "everyone has a fucking AK-47". Duh.

[Srelex]

HERESY!

The book was fantastic. The movie... not so much.

And I don't care if the movie was "not supposed to be taken that seriously" or not, the humans are retarded. Weapons with no sights on most of them? Check. Small-caliber assault rifles that require multiple magazines dumped into the enemy instead of, I dunno, better suited weapons? Check. Idiotic charging in with no plan, tactics, air support, armor support, heavy weapons, artillery, or even scouting out the area first? Check. Crowding your ships so close together that they run into each other and explode while performing evasive maneuvers? Check. Putting the "turbo button" behind a glass panel you have to smash on a military ship and waiting until the last second to use it? Check.

Hey look, we got a BINGO in Are You A Complete Fucking Idiot for the Starship Troopers military. Whereas in the novel, they were far less retarded.

The book is a boring, overrated author tract that's little more than a case of Heinlein spouting whatever nonsense had entered his head at that time and deciding to tack wank-armor and commie-bugs on so that he could market it. The movie at least has the grace to acknowledge its silliness. Again, why don't you complain about the implausible tactics in Spaceballs, or the violation of physics in Airplane!

[Meest]

That's not how it works, though.

The majority of Space Marines are (relatively) regular dudes with bolters and a combat knife/bayonet. They go around shooting stuff much like any other soldier. They are then supported by (or support themselves, depending upon operational and tactical planning) heavy weapons dudes and "assault" dudes who do have the chainswords. Said assault marines wield the swords and their pistols ambidextrously and fight with both in harmony; there is no "put away gun, draw sword instead" melodrama involved. They also aren't armies of one (no more than any other Space Marine, at least); they fight as cohesive units as part of larger operations (i.e., supporting those regular dudes with bolters).

For example: Tactical dudes with bolters advance; encounter heavily entrenched enemy infantry. Tactical dudes pinned by heavy weapons fire. Assault dudes jump in with their jump-packs; shred already-engaged heavy weapons with chainsaws. Tactical dudes free to advance now; take trenches, cover assault dudes, and continue their little "bounding overwatch" routine.

Someone needs to inform Graham McNeil then because Courage and Honour novel is loaded with this, it's against Tau but still. Another peeve about the novel he makes the (they have toys that would make Mechanicus look like tinker toys) Tau out to basically have laser pointers for accuracy otherwise their missiles/artillery suck, and has battlesuits going melee into defensive lines.

[Simon_Jester]

The book is a boring, overrated author tract that's little more than a case of Heinlein spouting whatever nonsense had entered his head at that time and deciding to tack wank-armor and commie-bugs on so that he could market it. The movie at least has the grace to acknowledge its silliness.

I disagree; Heinlein at least managed to address a literary theme seldom handled well: the perspective of the typical soldier, the grunt. He doesn't know everything, he isn't a superman. He's not fighting out of heroic ambition or ideology, not really; he's just trying to do the best he can under the belief system he's been taught.

And so all the propaganda that gets thrown at Juan Rico isn't really meant to be Heinlein telling us how civilization should work. It's meant to make Rico fight for the society he lives in.

I think that's vitally important to understand the novel: Rico is not being given a clear perspective of how the system should work, and he's certainly not given an unbiased one. The average citizen never is- I challenge you to name one country where the average person really has an accurate perception of the strengths and weaknesses of their culture, unbiased by self-satisfied comments about how good it is to live in capitalism/socialism/religion/ethnic unity/whatever.

Now, Heinlein tried to write this society in a broadly rational way that he could imagine wanting to live in, so yes, it includes author tracts on points where Heinlein was criticizing the society of his day, or trying to explain a set of values held by himself or his characters that his audience would not immediately grasp.

But to claim that Heinlein is advocating a martial-oligarchic republic, or total war against aliens for the sake of some vague survivalist impulse... that misses the point.

[MysteriousDarkLordv3]

Okay, I finally watched Signs.

The aliens had NO tactics - they were acting like a troop of baboons. Frankly, I don't think that the aliens were invaders at all. I think some alien freighter had a cosmic rat infestation and dumped them out on the first available world, neither knowing nor caring what happened after that. The crop circles were probably just alien graffiti.

So I think the Signs critters should be removed from consideration for "Worst Tactics", as they aren't a civilization or military, and thus don't have tactics.

[Temujin]

Okay, I finally watched Signs.

The aliens had NO tactics - they were acting like a troop of baboons. Frankly, I don't think that the aliens were invaders at all. I think some alien freighter had a cosmic rat infestation and dumped them out on the first available world, neither knowing nor caring what happened after that. The crop circles were probably just alien graffiti.

So I think the Signs critters should be removed from consideration for "Worst Tactics", as they aren't a civilization or military, and thus don't have tactics.

Hey, quit insulting baboons. A troop of baboons would have actually had tactics.

Regarding the crop circles, a great alternate ending would have been to pan back and show two older British gentlemen. One than turns to the other an says: "Well, our work here is done." Camera pans out showing the whole countryside littered with varios types of crop circles. Now that would be a twist!

[Black Admiral]

Someone needs to inform Graham McNeil then because Courage and Honour novel is loaded with this, it's against Tau but still.

The only ones doing that are Uriel, Learchus and Chaplain Clausel. The rest of the Ultramarines present are shooting the Tau as much (if not more) as they're stabbing them. And in McNeill's other work, bolters get as much play in close quarters as blades.

Another peeve about the novel he makes the (they have toys that would make Mechanicus look like tinker toys)

They most certainly do not. The Tau's technology may look flashier than the coggies', but it's markedly inferior.

Tau out to basically have laser pointers for accuracy otherwise their missiles/artillery suck,

The missiles used by Sky Rays are apparently supposed to have their targets designated by drones and forward observers, yes. The Tau (for their own reasons, presumably doctrinal) don't have any non-guided artillery.

and has battlesuits going melee into defensive lines.

The only battlesuit doing that, based on the weapons fit, was a senior commander (AFAIK the power-khopeshs aren't common weapons). The rest were just using their ranged weaponry at short-range

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, Tau may be good at long range, but up close against Astartes? Naw, not good odds for them. Astartes are known for being Death Incarnate up close to any force that goes up against them, so the Astartes use that to their advantage. They often lay down covering fire so that they can enter into melee, a enviroemnt where they have the advantage over most of their opponents.

[Modax]

The haloverse is pretty bad. It struck me the other day that the backbone of the UNSC's mobility on land--the warthog--is, essentially, a technical. You know, like one of these, but without the enclosed cab:



Good luck with the NBC protected version, guys.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

The haloverse is pretty bad. It struck me the other day that the backbone of the UNSC's mobility on land--the warthog--is, essentially, a technical. You know, like one of these, but without the enclosed cab:



Good luck with the NBC protected version, guys.

Well, if it means anything, the fluff does list the warthog as a scout vehicle, and there is an enclosed version, it was susposed to be in Halo 2 but got cut out.

[open_sketchbook]

And a whole lot of marines rolled into Iraq driving humvees, a great many of which were completely open-topped and doorless, with machine-guns, TOW missiles and grenade-launchers on them. You know... technicals. And these units did just fine, too; their mobility was a boon to an undermanned but technically superior force, allowing them to reinforce wherever they were needed. The humans in Halo face a similar situation; they have superior ground forces compared to their opponents, but are often outnumbered heavily and spread thin. Suddenly, having a fast, light mobile machine-gun post that can move guys around doesn't seem like a terrible idea, does it?

However, you could make a much better argument for the Covenant being shitty tacticians. Honour obsessed psychotic nobles leading an easily panicked slave race and mercenaries with a loose sense of loyalty where the full extent of their planning is to lord the superiority of their stolen technology over whatever primatives they happen to be fighting. Refreshingly, this means that they lose, frequently, whenever they are on the ground because they employ their technology in a stupid manner and they only win in space because that particular technology gap is harder to negate.

[Shinova]

To add onto what others are saying about 40k, it also doesn't help when your opponent is a space marine and is moving faster than your eyes can reliably track. A mounted heavy bolter you could've used to hose him down isn't much use then.

And Nids and Orks love to get up close and personal anyway, so melee combat tends to happens a lot whether one likes it or not.

[adam_grif]

And a whole lot of marines rolled into Iraq driving humvees, a great many of which were completely open-topped and doorless, with machine-guns, TOW missiles and grenade-launchers on them. You know... technicals. And these units did just fine, too; their mobility was a boon to an undermanned but technically superior force, allowing them to reinforce wherever they were needed. The humans in Halo face a similar situation; they have superior ground forces compared to their opponents, but are often outnumbered heavily and spread thin. Suddenly, having a fast, light mobile machine-gun post that can move guys around doesn't seem like a terrible idea, does it?

They are a 2xth century (I fucking forgot when; I think it's the 25th century? Something like that) space military that has been engaged in combat with the covenant for several years. Even Humvees have windows covering the people inside the body of the thing, and the real life US military has vehicles with remote operated (from the inside) weapon stations on top.

They've been building and equipping ships with these things for years after the war began. They could maybe get away with it if they had just run into them or something. And Jesus, fuck, that is the slowest firing gatling gun I've ever seen. What are all the barrels for? It's firing slower than regular machineguns!

If they were smart, they'd use a 14.5mm MG on the back, remotely operated. 14.5mm soviet rounds are what the sniper rifle uses, and it apparently kicks their asses. So use the machineguns chambered in that round! Then the passenger and drivers seats would be completely enclosed, with light (designed to resist hand-held covy weapons, nothing more) armor, and external camerars hooked up to allow them to see outside. The interior of the vehicle has projectors or monitors all around, to create the appearance of a "window" but without the vulnerability of actually having one.

What I just described could be done in short order with modern technology. It would also cut down the rate at which the UNSC soldiers are killed because the warthog provides zero cover for them. Plus the 14.5mm gun will be killing the enemies much faster. Considering the .50 cal mount on its back can already take out most covvy light vehicles, the heavier round should be dropping banshees in no time.

It's not like the addition of half a square meter of armor for the people inside is really going to make it weight much more either.

However, you could make a much better argument for the Covenant being shitty tacticians. Honour obsessed psychotic nobles leading an easily panicked slave race and mercenaries with a loose sense of loyalty where the full extent of their planning is to lord the superiority of their stolen technology over whatever primatives they happen to be fighting. Refreshingly, this means that they lose, frequently, whenever they are on the ground because they employ their technology in a stupid manner and they only win in space because that particular technology gap is harder to negate.

No arguments with this bit. The Covenant are stupid as shit, and don't know the first thing about how to fight ground wars. Their idea of "Close Air Support" can be downed reliably with infantry weapons. Their "tanks" have armor that can be PUNCHED through by a human sized cyborg. Their weapon of choice is useless plasma artillery that is so slow a man on foot can dodge it if he sees it coming, and he WILL see it coming because it's a giant glowing blue blob that arcs slowly through the air. Jesus. All their plasma weapons mounted on smallish vehicles fire fucking slow moving plasma blobs. Not as slow as the tanks, but waaaay below the speed of sound.

As you say, they only win in space. They only win in space because they outnumber humans 50 gajillion to 1, and have magitech shields / ridiculous plasma weapons that can melt planets en masse or whatever.

[Sarevok]

And a whole lot of marines rolled into Iraq driving humvees, a great many of which were completely open-topped and doorless, with machine-guns, TOW missiles and grenade-launchers on them. You know... technicals. And these units did just fine, too; their mobility was a boon to an undermanned but technically superior force, allowing them to reinforce wherever they were needed. The humans in Halo face a similar situation; they have superior ground forces compared to their opponents, but are often outnumbered heavily and spread thin. Suddenly, having a fast, light mobile machine-gun post that can move guys around doesn't seem like a terrible idea, does it?

Except the Americans were a giant stomping on an ant hill. They could afford a shitty vehicle when it is backed up by an abundance of tanks and fighters jets.

However, you could make a much better argument for the Covenant being shitty tacticians. Honour obsessed psychotic nobles leading an easily panicked slave race and mercenaries with a loose sense of loyalty where the full extent of their planning is to lord the superiority of their stolen technology over whatever primatives they happen to be fighting. Refreshingly, this means that they lose, frequently, whenever they are on the ground because they employ their technology in a stupid manner and they only win in space because that particular technology gap is harder to negate.

Meh, the UNSC is just as bad as the Covvies. They were fighting the Vietnam war in spaaace.

[Srelex]

In fairness, the UNSC arsenal does get expanded to a more reasonable degree in Halo Wars, and you could argue that the situations in the Halo games forced them to go guerilla. Pity we don't see much of the HW stuff reflected in the novels, to my knowledge.

[Sarevok]

In fairness, the UNSC arsenal does get expanded to a more reasonable degree in Halo Wars, and you could argue that the situations in the Halo games forced them to go guerilla. Pity we don't see much of the HW stuff reflected in the novels, to my knowledge.

Indeed.

If Bungiee had any sense they would have canonized the UNSC army featured in Halo Wars by using it as the template for Halo : Reach. Its sad but a simple RTS game fleshed out UNSC ground combat far better than the books and the anime.

[Srelex]

Well, we do have indication of the UNSC having some form of half-decent close air support in Reach (ZOMG helis!) but I presume that as is mostly the case in Halo you'll be playing desperate commando missions.

Then again, I remember reading a Halo novel (one of the crapper ones) that lauded the Warthog as being the frontline 'bread and butter' vehicle of the UNSC.

[Ronsu]

There seems to be some rumbling about Signs. You need to realize that the movie isn´t about an alien invasion at all. Yeah, there are things running around, abducting 'special people' but the monsters are more like demons of lore, with nonsensical rules of their own.

The little girl is referred to as a special angel, and it´s the glasses of water that she has blessed with her super special foresight that actually harm the 'aliens'. The movie´s main theme is of a preacher who lost his faith finding it again with the signs from Gawd that save his little angel in the end. Swing away Merrill!

Yup, Shyamalan directed the biggest chick tract this side of The Passion Of Christ.

[Srelex]

But if all it takes to defeat these 'demons' is a glass of water, then the message of the film is to take faith in Volvic, not Christ.

[Isolder74]

But if all it takes to defeat these 'demons' is a glass of water, then the message of the film is to take faith in Volvic, not Christ.

Christ refers to himself as living water. So your objection is a bit silly you realize that right?

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man athirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.