A TARDIS of your very own

[Imperial528]

@Purple And will you proclaim yourself Emperor Purpelius the First? /injoke

Anyway, Purple raises a good point.

Myself, I don't like to use other people's stuff, so I would go to a universe in which I can do anything, no exceptions, and proceed to create my own TARDIS-like craft, preferably one which is not sentient and is of my own design. Second, I use my powers to move all of my stuff into it, and create stuff that doesn't exist but that I want. Third, I use said powers to resurrect the Doctor, explain to him that I have restored his regenerations, and I return the TARDIS to him. I then go off throughout the multiverse learning about everything I care to, especially the sciences. I then become a multiversal hobbyist, making anything I want just because.

[Simon_Jester]

It's a metaphor. The point is that if you can visit any made up universe you can always just make up a pocket one that contains what ever you want it to so that you can acquire things without a fuss.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't, or bloody well shouldn't, work that way.

It strikes me as a rather low-quality way of addressing the initial questions.

Also, to be honest, all the "I want phenomenal cosmic power!" people here kind of weird me out, but then I've gone into my feelings on that before.

[Purple]

Is it cheap? Yes, yes it is extremely cheap. But it works. And a man should not be above things like that.

[Imperial528]

Also, to be honest, all the "I want phenomenal cosmic power!" people here kind of weird me out, but then I've gone into my feelings on that before.

Frankly I think that phenomenal cosmic powers are fine and dandy if you use them as a means to an end that would otherwise be impossible. Since if you use them for things that could be done without said powers, well, that sucks the purpose and fun right out of the activity.

[Simon_Jester]

I dispute whether it would work that way- whether the conditions of the original should allow for you creating your own dream-universes. I don't think that's what Ahriman meant, though it's difficult for me to explain why I don't think so.

And it's not so much a question of being "above" things like instant self-gratification like that, it's... I find it rather odd that so many people would want so badly to be gods. It's hard to explain; it strikes me as carrying with it implicit obligations that would make life quite unpleasant, really.

I get the desire for health, for immortality even, things like that, but... if I had a box that I could pull anything I wanted out of, I'd either be a monster (by default; see the problem of theodicy) or I'd be spending all my time figuring out what best to do with the thing, to the point where it would overtake my life entirely.

And I disagree with Broomstick; from what I know the Master has a certain classiness to him that's lacking here- the desire for something more than wish fulfillment, which to me feels like something I might have wanted when I was fifteen but wouldn't want now. Not to say that I don't have wishes, or that I wouldn't be using a TARDIS to my own advantage in a number of ways, but I wouldn't be sitting around scheming about how to turn myself into an all-powerful being and then start screwing around with things using phenomenal cosmic power or threatening to conquer the Earth or whatever.

I don't know what I would do, but I don't have any dreams of being Emperor of the Universe. Not even a classy one, not really.

[Purple]

I dispute whether it would work that way- whether the conditions of the original should allow for you creating your own dream-universes. I don't think that's what Ahriman meant, though it's difficult for me to explain why I don't think so.

So you simply want us to take your word on that? Where do you draw the line thou? Does it have to be written down in detail? Or perhaps do you want it published?

Either way, no condition you name is going to be unreasonable to acheave if you have a TARDIS to help you.

And it's not so much a question of being "above" things like instant self-gratification like that, it's... I find it rather odd that so many people would want so badly to be gods. It's hard to explain; it strikes me as carrying with it implicit obligations that would make life quite unpleasant, really.

I don't want to be a god. All I want to is live forever without fear of being killed by a freak accident or a madman with a gun that happens to disagree with my hair style.

And there is nothing wrong with instant self-gratification.

I get the desire for health, for immortality even, things like that, but... if I had a box that I could pull anything I wanted out of, I'd either be a monster (by default; see the problem of theodicy) or I'd be spending all my time figuring out what best to do with the thing, to the point where it would overtake my life entirely.

You think way too much. I would just use it for trivial things like geting some ice cream and stuff I want at the time.

And I disagree with Broomstick; from what I know the Master has a certain classiness to him that's lacking here- the desire for something more than wish fulfillment, which to me feels like something I might have wanted when I was fifteen but wouldn't want now. Not to say that I don't have wishes, or that I wouldn't be using a TARDIS to my own advantage in a number of ways, but I wouldn't be sitting around scheming about how to turn myself into an all-powerful being and then start screwing around with things using phenomenal cosmic power or threatening to conquer the Earth or whatever.

Power is fun to have, if for no other reason than so that you can play around with real people as if they were Sims. But if you are not into that, no one is arguing you.

I don't know what I would do, but I don't have any dreams of being Emperor of the Universe. Not even a classy one, not really.

People usually become leaders becouse they believe that they need to do something for the organization they are leading. They feel them self entitled to lead. You seem to lack that, and that is good. After all, what is a good leader without followers.

[Imperial528]

Oh, I just remembered a few things I forgot from my scenario:

I'll be somehow acquiring immortality, of course.

And in my spare time (which, when you have a time machine and immortality, is essentially infinite), I'll help the weak and poor from oppression. Maybe live in a few places for a while, reforming broken nations just as a good citizen of said nation would, or establish galaxy-spanning aid organizations.

[Simon_Jester]

I dispute whether it would work that way- whether the conditions of the original should allow for you creating your own dream-universes. I don't think that's what Ahriman meant, though it's difficult for me to explain why I don't think so.

So you simply want us to take your word on that? Where do you draw the line thou? Does it have to be written down in detail? Or perhaps do you want it published?

No, I am merely disagreeing with you. There's a difference.

I get the desire for health, for immortality even, things like that, but... if I had a box that I could pull anything I wanted out of, I'd either be a monster (by default; see the problem of theodicy) or I'd be spending all my time figuring out what best to do with the thing, to the point where it would overtake my life entirely.

You think way too much. I would just use it for trivial things like geting some ice cream and stuff I want at the time.

Then you are a monster, by default, because you've piled all this power into yourself and you're spending all your time eating ice cream instead of doing worthwhile things in it, in a universe (multiverse) that desperately needs those things done.

If I had a TARDIS, and if I've read my personality correctly, I like to think I'd eventually fall into a 'knight-errant' pattern. I'd like to think so. Otherwise, what's the point, really?

Power is fun to have, if for no other reason than so that you can play around with real people as if they were Sims. But if you are not into that, no one is arguing you...

People usually become leaders becouse they believe that they need to do something for the organization they are leading. They feel them self entitled to lead. You seem to lack that, and that is good. After all, what is a good leader without followers.

Balls to that, I say.

You know, it's weird since I'm not really a Whovian, but I'm increasingly seeing the Doctor as a role model for the proper use of the Tardis...

[Purple]

No, I am merely disagreeing with you. There's a difference.

So you are expressing general disapproval without actually providing any sort of alternative explanation other than becouse you say so?

Er...

Then you are a monster, by default, because you've piled all this power into yourself and you're spending all your time eating ice cream instead of doing worthwhile things in it, in a universe (multiverse) that desperately needs those things done.

Are you for real? Are you really saying that everyone who uses his wealth/power/what ever for personal gain as oposed to helping others is a monster? The world does not work like that. You are only a monster if you actively do evil.

If I had a TARDIS, and if I've read my personality correctly, I like to think I'd eventually fall into a 'knight-errant' pattern. I'd like to think so. Otherwise, what's the point, really?

Why would you want to thou? The only reason I can think of is that it would give you some sense of purpose, some meaning to your life. Well, if that is your cup of tea fine do it. But you have no bloody right to call anyone who disagrees a monster.

That is a sure way to get 99% of humanity to be your enemies.

Balls to that, I say.

So far, your arguments really have only been meaningless quips like this one. Some times disguised and some times not but that is all they are. And I for one am at the end of my nerve.

You know, it's weird since I'm not really a Whovian, but I'm increasingly seeing the Doctor as a role model for the proper use of the Tardis...

You mean the guy that travels space and time for fun and picks up girls to go along for the ride? Well, yea I like that model too.

[Simon_Jester]

No, I am merely disagreeing with you. There's a difference.

So you are expressing general disapproval without actually providing any sort of alternative explanation other than becouse you say so?

Er...

Allow me to clarify:

Looking at the original post, I get a strong sense that he's referring to visiting established fictional 'universes,' the ones we can talk about as a "something-verse." I really do not think he means for the TARDIS to convey the power to create universes out of whole cloth for you to visit; these fictional universes are (or I would expect to be) things that naturally exist outside your head, and are not simply products of your own wish-fulfillment impulse.

That said, there are no doubt fictional universes where wish fulfillment impulses are granted, so you could probably find a way.

Then you are a monster, by default, because you've piled all this power into yourself and you're spending all your time eating ice cream instead of doing worthwhile things in it, in a universe (multiverse) that desperately needs those things done.

Are you for real? Are you really saying that everyone who uses his wealth/power/what ever for personal gain as oposed to helping others is a monster? The world does not work like that. You are only a monster if you actively do evil.

No, you do not understand.

The problem is that when you have godlike power, when it is easy to do enormous amounts of good, at little cost to yourself, then to withhold that power becomes less and less excusable. I mentioned theodicy; the question in its extreme case becomes the problem of evil: if God is so powerful, and so benevolent, why does he allow bad things to happen when he could prevent them by snapping his fingers?

If you could save a drowning man by pushing a button, and you don't push that button, at that point I can make a pretty good case that you're a monster. Depending on the amount of power a person takes upon themselves, it can be that easy to perform good acts. At which point the persistent failure to do them becomes monstrous.

If I had a TARDIS, and if I've read my personality correctly, I like to think I'd eventually fall into a 'knight-errant' pattern. I'd like to think so. Otherwise, what's the point, really?

Why would you want to thou? The only reason I can think of is that it would give you some sense of purpose, some meaning to your life. Well, if that is your cup of tea fine do it. But you have no bloody right to call anyone who disagrees a monster.

That is a sure way to get 99% of humanity to be your enemies.

99% of humans don't have the resources to singlehandedly raise the problem of evil by witholding their maximum-effort attempts to help people in trouble. It's one thing to justify not helping people when it would be hard, or when you are too weak to overcome systemic problems, or when you could spend every cent you own and still not accomplish anything conclusive.

When you can wish yourself magic powers and go anywhere and do anything with impunity, you have a much weaker claim to "I can't solve this problem! I just want to sit around and eat ice cream!" People are dying out there while you sit around and eat ice cream; how is that right when you could basically save them by snapping your fingers?

Balls to that, I say.

So far, your arguments really have only been meaningless quips like this one. Some times disguised and some times not but that is all they are. And I for one am at the end of my nerve.

Since you were the one making a crack about 'leaders need followers,' I made a crack in return. Basically, I rebel against the notion of having a strong desire to achieve wish-fulfillment fantasies, or that the world should be dominated by people who have strong wish-fulfillment fantasies. People like that do not make good masters.

You know, it's weird since I'm not really a Whovian, but I'm increasingly seeing the Doctor as a role model for the proper use of the Tardis...

You mean the guy that travels space and time for fun and picks up girls to go along for the ride? Well, yea I like that model too.

[shakes head]

There's a lot of this you're missing, because of the self-gratification angle; I'm having a very hard time explaining it to you, which I regret.

[Shroom Man 777]

He also saves a lot of people and stops a lot of disasters in between having fun and picking up girls.

[Ahriman238]

Yeah, I think I'll have to claim OP privledges and nix the "create your own world" hack. Kudos to Purple for coming up with it though.

My motives in creating this scenario were curiosity about the board members and a bit of whimsy. What would you do with unlimited access to all the situations, people, technology and magic you've seen or read about for years? So simon-jester is essentially correct in this, I'll refrain from comment on morality. I precluded altering the Real World because I didn't want this to turn into a debate on whether or not saving Ferdinand would stop WWI, or if warning Pearl Harbor would do more harm or good, etc. I precluded DW because the timeline there is labyrinthe and changes a few times, and I had a sound cannonical reason for excluding both.

To give an example; I mentioned that this was partially inspired by a fanfic, wherein a man gains a Stargate Cargo Ship with interdimensional capabilities. He promptly steals Asgard technology at gunpoint, then manufactures a mind control drug to let him easily subjugate planets, declaring himself God-Emperor (sound familiar?) Then he goes from universe to universe buying or stealing technology, making a few changes and building a vast empire through time-dilation and cloning technology. This road is open to you, should you wish to take it.

A second writer The Hierarch launched a similar story about how he would lead a vast Crusade to convert the entire multi-verse to Christianity.

Me? I thought about it and decided that after mastering all sorts of absurdly advanced technology and upgrading my frail human form (though not to insane, Superman levels where I would have to forever shun human contact) I would basically become the Doctor. Explore, discover, never give up on personal enrichment, but I would also help people, and sometimes, screw it all, I'd just like to see a triple-sunset.

But that's what Vexmaster, The Hierarch, and I would do. I'm still curious what all of YOU would do. Preferably in some detail. Don't just say you'll ascend to godhood, tell us how, there are enough bad movie/comicbook villains who came this close to give you some idea.

Though now that Shroomy's on, I'm a little afraid of the answers. Especially since he can reach the Metabarons-verse he mentioned in the "most powerful human civilization" thread.

[Purple]

Why? Seriously, what is wrong with visiting your own made up place? I especially find this insulting since as my signature says I have created some quite interesting worlds I definitively would like to visit. Ah to see the gleaming spires of Centaury, the cloud cities of Estellia. To look at the galaxy burn in the holy wrath of war and eat popcorn as millions die.

And besides there is always the laws of probability. In an infinite number of universes the chance of finding one with what I desire are always 100%. All I need to do is find a way to look for it. And that should not be that hard.

[doom3607]

Ahem... sitting around eating ice cream is not withholding aid, simon. You do sort of have a time machine- you can feel free to waste ten thousand years sitting around eating ice cream, since it doesn't actually result in ten thousand years of people dying- just go back to whenever and save them. Hell, if you're that powerful, do whatever the hell you want and just...

Ok. Worked it out exactly.

First, you need to do all the stuff to get yourself effectively all-powerful. Then rig the TARDIS up with a teleporter tied into a system that makes some sort of duplicate of a person, but dead the whole time. Make it so that the instant somebody teleports in, it duplicates them, sends the duplicate back to the instant they teleport in, teleports the duplicate back out at the same instant. That way, you can grab dying people the instant before they'd have died and save them. Then rig the TARDIS to do this automatically- save every single dying person the instant before they die, then use some sort of godtech to fix them up. Then you build a Dyson sphere with Culture-type wish fulfillment stuff, and send the TARDIS out to automatically save everyone who ever died, dropping a duplicate of them that looks like it died exacltly the way they would have had you not saved them. Once the TARDIS has everyone, it dumps them on the Dyson sphere. Or group of spheres.

In other words- build a Heaven-type afterlife.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That idea turned up in a DW book, it was called the City of the Saved.

I hate to say that doomy is right on a point of morality, but he is quite right on the "we have a time machine, god-like powers and all the time in the universe (literally) in which to do things." Just because we do not do something here and now does not automatically mean we won't do it at some point. We can quite happily sit around for a billion years before we solve the problems of evil and suffering.

However, I get the feeling Simon that if I, as a newly-minted God, did remove all problems of evil and suffering, you would probably object because you no longer have true free will. Am I right?

This is not what I would do however. I'd get the immortal/invulnerable thing, maybe some superpowers (I really want TK) and then wander the universe with my GF as a knight-errant and his lady. Much more fun.

And by not making myself all-powerful I avoid these damn morality arguments!

[doom3607]

Well, I'm not per se getting rid of those problems. You can still do whatever the hell you want, you'll just wind up in my "afterlife" afterwards. And given at least Culturetech to run it with, you can still do whatever the hell you want in the afterlife if you're willing to accept a simulation close enough to reality that you could never tell the difference.

And no, you don't dodge the morality arguments. If you could make yourself all-powerful easily and go out and help people, why aren't you doing it?

EDIT:

To give an example; I mentioned that this was partially inspired by a fanfic, wherein a man gains a Stargate Cargo Ship with interdimensional capabilities. He promptly steals Asgard technology at gunpoint, then manufactures a mind control drug to let him easily subjugate planets, declaring himself God-Emperor (sound familiar?) Then he goes from universe to universe buying or stealing technology, making a few changes and building a vast empire through time-dilation and cloning technology. This road is open to you, should you wish to take it.

A second writer The Hierarch launched a similar story about how he would lead a vast Crusade to convert the entire multi-verse to Christianity.

Any chance we could get links for these?

[Imperial528]

And no, you don't dodge the morality arguments. If you could make yourself all-powerful easily and go out and help people, why aren't you doing it?

Because with your godly powers you just make a clone/robot/entity to do it for you. Duh.

[doom3607]

Like my automatic TARDIS that goes around saving everyone who ever died from dying, but making it look like they actually did die, and then drops them off in the "afterlife" I built! Come to think of it, I should probably just spam such machines in case they start breaking down.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yes, there we go, I'll build the ultimate chatbot: an exact AI duplicate of my personality, but one with infinite patience, massive example databases and a sole purpose: to debate morality, AND WIN!

And safeguards to stop it going all I, Robot on me.

[Ahriman238]

EDIT:

To give an example; I mentioned that this was partially inspired by a fanfic, wherein a man gains a Stargate Cargo Ship with interdimensional capabilities. He promptly steals Asgard technology at gunpoint, then manufactures a mind control drug to let him easily subjugate planets, declaring himself God-Emperor (sound familiar?) Then he goes from universe to universe buying or stealing technology, making a few changes and building a vast empire through time-dilation and cloning technology. This road is open to you, should you wish to take it.

A second writer The Hierarch launched a similar story about how he would lead a vast Crusade to convert the entire multi-verse to Christianity.

Any chance we could get links for these?

Ask and ye shall recieve. Apologies for being a blockhead and not knowing how to dress these.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4811481/1/S ... c_Imperium
Stargate: Galactic Imperium. I should warn you it is massive and 60% of it is a technical treatise on starship design and how to upgrade and intergrate disparate technologies.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5212216/1/S ... ant_EmpireAnd Covenant Empire, about a multi-verse crusade, prominently featuring the Covenant from Halo and the nBSG Cylons.

[doom3607]

These should be entertaining! Thanks, Ahriman!

[avatarxprime]

Like my automatic TARDIS that goes around saving everyone who ever died from dying, but making it look like they actually did die, and then drops them off in the "afterlife" I built! Come to think of it, I should probably just spam such machines in case they start breaking down.

Doom, just go hit up Nikola Tesla from "The Prestige" and get a copy of his "teleportation" machine. The core technology for your plan is now yours, just combine it with a high quality actual teleportation device.

Anyway, even with the additional restrictions provided by Ahriman238 this scenario is still hopelessly broken.

1) Can't change your timeline
Fine, I go to the "Back to the Future" animated universe (rebuilt De Lorean and Doc Brown has a much better grip on the time travel tech) and have him build me a time machine. BotF-verse time travel is established as altering your own past so I don't have to worry about spawning alternate timelines while leaving my own timeline untouched Star Trek style. The TARDIS is not directly involved in any alteration of the timeline and therefore its safety feature should not activate.

2) Can't change the Doctor's timeline
Fine, I go to the Teen Titans animated series universe and grab Control Freak's super remote. The remote allows me to travel into anything shown on any television and mess around with it as I see fit. Doctor Who is still a television show in my reality so I can then travel into it and go ahead and do whatever needs being done. The TARDIS is not directly involved in any alteration of the timeline and therefore its safety feature should not activate.

3) Can't travel to any fictional universe you dream up
Fine, I go to the Futurama universe and grab the Professor's What If machine. The What If machine creates new fictional universes within the scope of the show that I should be able to travel to using the TARDIS, within the scope of the limitations already set. If this doesn't work then I use Control Freak's remote to enter that world (hey, it's still essentially a TV) and use the TARDIS that inhabits it (because I will always ensure that one is there) and use that TARDIS to travel back to the "real world."

Even if those scenarios don't play out the way I want them to, I still have various back up plans floating about in my head.

Anyway, my favorite idea that has been presented in this thread is resurrecting the Doctor and giving him Sexy back *rimshot* It's well within my ability to do so and given the rest of what is within my ability to do so I wouldn't even need Sexy after having the chance to use her abilities for about 24 hours or so anyway. The Whoverse gets the Doctor back and I get to go on having some incredible adventure, maybe even hang out with the Doctor for a while and remain the one companion he can always call on since I won't die/age like the rest of them without being an ugly "fixed point" in time.

[The Romulan Republic]

1) Can't change your timeline
Fine, I go to the "Back to the Future" animated universe (rebuilt De Lorean and Doc Brown has a much better grip on the time travel tech) and have him build me a time machine. BotF-verse time travel is established as altering your own past so I don't have to worry about spawning alternate timelines while leaving my own timeline untouched Star Trek style. The TARDIS is not directly involved in any alteration of the timeline and therefore its safety feature should not activate.

2) Can't change the Doctor's timeline
Fine, I go to the Teen Titans animated series universe and grab Control Freak's super remote. The remote allows me to travel into anything shown on any television and mess around with it as I see fit. Doctor Who is still a television show in my reality so I can then travel into it and go ahead and do whatever needs being done. The TARDIS is not directly involved in any alteration of the timeline and therefore its safety feature should not activate.

3) Can't travel to any fictional universe you dream up
Fine, I go to the Futurama universe and grab the Professor's What If machine. The What If machine creates new fictional universes within the scope of the show that I should be able to travel to using the TARDIS, within the scope of the limitations already set. If this doesn't work then I use Control Freak's remote to enter that world (hey, it's still essentially a TV) and use the TARDIS that inhabits it (because I will always ensure that one is there) and use that TARDIS to travel back to the "real world."

You know, some of us might have ethical qualms with erasing large portions of history on a whim. You'd be essentially destroying trillions of lives without the consent of those involved.

In any case, Sexy is intelligent, and may react poorly to your attempts to cheat. She has taken the Doctor places he didn't want to go, and once didn't she just leave him somewhere? So, if she wished, she could potentially take you somewhere very unpleasant, wait until you step out of the Tardis, then disappear. She appears to have some loyalty/affection for the Doctor. The same won't nessissarily be true for you.

[The Romulan Republic]

Edit: quoted when I meant to edit out a minor error. Deleted accordingly.

[avatarxprime]

You know, some of us might have ethical qualms with erasing large portions of history on a whim. You'd be essentially destroying trillions of lives without the consent of those involved.

Yeah, so? The Doctor can be thought to do so as well. He regularly attempts to alter time in order to produce the best possible outcome he can. The only person who can state whether or not he is correct in this is himself. He also is the one in charge of determing just what "best" means. This would by definition have tons of Butterfly effects across time effecting an untold number of lives.

Anyway, who said that I'd go about mucking with history as I see fit, I certainly never said anything about "erasing large portions of history on a whim," as you seem to think. I was merely pointing out how to easily circumvent the rules as established via the rules as established. Besides, if I want to directly impact my own life/history that's entirely up to me. Doc Brown and Marty seemed to have no qualms over altering the past and future in order to produce better lives for the McFly's, was that wrong or not? The universe as a whole seems to not care, although Biff would probably say that it was not fair since his life went down hill following their alterations.

In any case, Sexy is intelligent, and may react poorly to your attempts to cheat. She has taken the Doctor places he didn't want to go, and once didn't she just leave him somewhere? So, if she wished, she could potentially take you somewhere very unpleasant, wait until you step out of the Tardis, then disappear. She appears to have some loyalty/affection for the Doctor. The same won't nessissarily be true for you.

Why would she care if I'm circumventing the rules considering everything I'm doing is allowed within the scope of said rules, especially if one of my priorities is resurrecting the Doctor? Besides it's also stated in said rules that the only "punishment" Sexy will be handing out is essentially turning herself, you, and your companions (if any) into ghosts that can't interact with the world until you stop doing the Bad Thing you were doing and travel to a neutral timeframe.

Also, you forget that the Doctor rarely pilots her properly, letting Sexy take him wherever it is she feels he needs to go, especially now that he knows this is in fact exactly what she does. I will know how to pilot her properly and check to make sure I am when/where I want to be. Sexy has never once messed with the scanners or anything of the sort IIRC so she wouldn't be able to trick me in that sense unless I never actually checked to make sure I arrived at my destination before stepping out of the TARDIS.