'Parting of the Ways' Dalek fleet vs. the Empire

[Stark]

Or the obvious conclusion that the Dalek's have different settings on their gunsticks? Like this:

While this is almost certainly true, it doesn't change that we're (allegedly) talking about the POTW fleet, which is a bunch of Daleks rebuilt with scavenged genetic material in the far future, and not some guys in WW2. Next you'll say POTW guys can be equated to the Cult of Skaro, I guess. You ignore that SW weapons have power levels, of course.

Yeah? And so what? It's Sci-Fi. I mean, I could just as easily argue that the power to destroy a planet is absolutely impossible and ridiculous, and it is far more likely that the Death Star beam hitting Alderaan set off a chain reaction of explosives on the planet which destroyed it.

No, there's 'thats a lot of juice' and 'there is no fucking way anywhere near that power would get into the bunker without melting the shit out of the cables, breaking the circuit, or blowing up a transformer and producing the effect we see'. Unless the Dalek (in its damaged state) was able to make the entire US power grid superconductive offscreen.

Maybe.

You've got fucking problems.

I'm sorry, I thought this was already discussed on the first page?

I mean, the screen explicitly shows a red circle, indicating the blast wave, following by the continents changing shapes in a very 'melty' like manner. And... why would they not be used in ship to ship combat?

If an F16 shoots someone down, the little dot on the radar goes away. Is it OMG TEH VAPORISED? Of course not. What does the display represent? Where does it get its information? Why does it even still work if the world has been 'melted'?

The author's intent is clearly that Earth has suffered massive bombardment, but we see none of it. You're all too willing to leap to the best conclusion for you, but normal people like to have evidence, and not 'Google maps went a bit funny'.

The fact that those missiles were actually expected to destroy the TARDIS should tell you something about their power.

You are so ass-backwards it's hilarious. We see their 'power'; a petrol explosion about 200m across. It doesn't destroy the TARDIS, and indeed we see later that the ENTIRE FUCKING FLEET is powerless against the extrapolator (unable even to knock the Gamestation into the atmosphere or simply crush it). You can wave your hand about how 'powerful' they must have been for a bunch of Daleks who never fought in the Time War to think they'd destroy a TARDIS, but what we see is pretty unimpressive. And what we see... is all there is. What those idiots expected is simply not quantifiable - they were ALSO so poorly informed they believed the TARDIS to have 'no defences', remember?

[ThePerson5]

I'd just like to echo Chosen One earlier in this thread:
There is a scene where you see Dalek saucers flying down to Earth to bombard the planet, and you do indeed see massive red spots indicating huge damage to the planet.

[Stark]

The atmosphere is already totally fucked in the time period, and we don't see anything happen. It's clear that its a massive bombardment, but using the display as 'evidence' without understanding what its displaying is stupid. Where do the pretty lines come from? Ground stations? GPS markers? Visual inspection? Bear in mind, it's a maintenance terminal in a television station, not some military sensor array.

[ThePerson5]

Fair enough. Though, from what I understand, the fleet in POTW was a pretty puny one by Dalek standards. It was basically 200 support craft, and not up to Time War standards.

[Darth Tedious]

I'm just going to point out that Stormtrooper armour really is pretty fucking hard to get around in. Seriously. You can't bend in that shit. You can run (just), you can crouch (just), but touching your toes? Forget it. It isn't terribly bulky, but it's quite awkward.

And WRT to venting a ship's atmosphere (mentioned br E_F), Stormtroopers only have a 2-3 minute air supply in their O2 canisters, so they would be stopped in reasonably short order.

[Stark]

Do you honestly think you have a point? Daleks can't dive away from a thermal detonator, they can't hide behind doorframes, they can't duck behind convenient waist-high barricades, they can't fit through half-height passageways, or anything else a stromtrooper can do. This is what it means when someone says stormtroopers have the agility advantage; not that stormtrooper agility is good, but that it's BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUY.

Whether or not any of that is relevant is up for debate, but the idea that Daleks are going to be running-speed,circlestrafing, bullet-sliding gun-fu maniacs just because they can fly is rubbish. They'll trundle around like they always do, quite possibly not even shooting until they feel like it, and quite possibly missing an assload. Imagine pretty much any Dalek combat you've ever seen in DW, but replace the enemies (usually unarmed civilians or 1970s soldiers) with an enemy that can kill them in one shot.

That's right - they'd get fucking slaughtered. Maybe this is why they used Ogrons. In Doomsday the Cult didn't even really bother firing, because they were totally immune to damage - give one guy there a gun that can kill them (of which there are plenty, even a holdout pistol wired into a drycleaner) and they'd all four be wiped out in seconds. Its a dramatic conceit that Daleks are simply too smart to face off against parity enemies.

Fair enough. Though, from what I understand, the fleet in POTW was a pretty puny one by Dalek standards. It was basically 200 support craft, and not up to Time War standards.

This is 100% right. They're a bunch of psycho clones rebuilt from garbage. They aren't Time War Daleks (although they're apparently close), they obviuosly have no time technology at all, and they're led by a self-confessed lunatic. However, this is a VS involving this group specifically.

I wouldn't even post in a thread about the S4 guys because that serial was so terrible I never watched Doctor Who again.

[Batman]

I'm just going to point out that Stormtrooper armour really is pretty fucking hard to get around in. Seriously. You can't bend in that shit. You can run (just), you can crouch (just), but touching your toes? Forget it. It isn't terribly bulky, but it's quite awkward.

Um-unless Stormtrooper armour is considerably more restrictive than Clonetrooper armour, while they almost certainly can't touch their toes standing up, running and crouching is something they do on a routine basis so I don't see why Stormtroopers couldn't.

And WRT to venting a ship's atmosphere (mentioned br E_F), Stormtroopers only have a 2-3 minute air supply in their O2 canisters, so they would be stopped in reasonably short order.

Um-we see Stormtroopers stand guard out in space as early as ANH.

[Darth Tedious]

Do you honestly think you have a point? Daleks can't dive away from a thermal detonator, they can't hide behind doorframes, they can't duck behind convenient waist-high barricades, they can't fit through half-height passageways, or anything else a stromtrooper can do.

Some of those aren't the best examples. How many Stormtroopers carry TDs to throw at the Daleks?
And fitting through a half-height passageway or ducking behind a waist-high barricade is not something a Stormtrooper can do easily.

Whether or not any of that is relevant is up for debate, but the idea that Daleks are going to be running-speed,circlestrafing, bullet-sliding gun-fu maniacs just because they can fly is rubbish.

Agreed.

Imagine pretty much any Dalek combat you've ever seen in DW, but replace the enemies (usually unarmed civilians or 1970s soldiers) with an enemy that can kill them in one shot.

Is there a basis for assuming that an E-11 (or a DLT-19) would one-shot a Dalek?

Um-unless Stormtrooper armour is considerably more restrictive than Clonetrooper armour, while they almost certainly can't touch their toes standing up, running and crouching is something they do on a routine basis so I don't see why Stormtroopers couldn't.

Out-of-universe: All Clonetroopers we see on-screen are either CG or cartoons, and as such are able to be more flexible than real people in real (costume) armour. RL Clonetrooper costumes are just as restrictive as Stormtrooper ones.
In-universe: Apparently Stormtrooper armour is more restrictive. It is described as an 18-piece kit (consistant with the costumes). The ab-plate and codpiece are not seperated, but a single plate, which means no bending at the waist.

Um-we see Stormtroopers stand guard out in space as early as ANH.

You mean these guys?

With the large oxygen tanks strapped to their backs?

[ThePerson5]

Is there a basis for assuming that an E-11 (or a DLT-19) would one-shot a Dalek?

No. There actually isn't.

Just wanna point out that Cybermen wrist-blasters can do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfv4ER3fH9Y

[ThePerson5]

Daleks shields also survive at least a couple dozen people shooting them repeatedly with Dalek-derived weaponry for about 10 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMEuefKv ... re=related

[Stark]

Some of those aren't the best examples. How many Stormtroopers carry TDs to throw at the Daleks?
And fitting through a half-height passageway or ducking behind a waist-high barricade is not something a Stormtrooper can do easily.

Are you fucking stupid? It doesn't matter if it's something anyone will do; it's an example of superior agility that they'd even be capable of doing so. Do you know what the word 'agility' means? In any CQB situation, the Daleks will very likely trundle around like very slow remote control cars, spraying wildly or shooting infrequently, while stormtroopers will be doing all the things human soldiers do. If SW small arms are ineffective (which frankly seems pretty unlikely), they'll play sinister music while the looming threat closes in. If they are, they'll all be shot to pieces and resort to superscience plans or slave soldiers.

Is there a basis for assuming that an E-11 (or a DLT-19) would one-shot a Dalek?

Can you read? I specifically used this as an example of poor debating, like captain idiot 54 saying 'Daleks will do xyz and be immune to abc while they dance the jfk'. Of COURSE there isn't! That's what people are supposed to be establishing! All we know is that shitty 20th century scratch-built energy weapons take a while to overload the most senior Daleks, and that 21st century Pete's World guns do nothing. Oh, and that a 50th century hold-out pistol connected to a clothes dryer destroys them utterly in one shot, of course.

Out-of-universe:

Nobody cares.

In-universe: Apparently Stormtrooper armour is more restrictive. It is described as an 18-piece kit (consistant with the costumes). The ab-plate and codpiece are not seperated, but a single plate, which means no bending at the waist.

Unless it makes them stand straight up all the time, unable to lean, reach, bend, go prone or anything else humanoid shit can do, they're STILL more agile than Daleks. Sadly, we've seen stormtroopers do all kinds of shit a Dalek can't (and arguably even run faster than Daleks are typically shown moving).

[ThePerson5]

All we know is that shitty 20th century scratch-built energy weapons take a while to overload the most senior Daleks, and that 21st century Pete's World guns do nothing. Oh, and that a 50th century hold-out pistol connected to a clothes dryer destroys them utterly in one shot, of course.

They can also fall from orbit unaided, through the atmosphere (not burning up), and proceed to crash onto an island and burn in a crater for three days. Still being alive.

[Shroom Man 777]

That was a Time War-era Daleks. The Parting of the Ways Daleks are not Time War-era Daleks, they are Daleks built by the Dalek Emperor in secret and made from scavenged human tissues.

[Stark]

Are we back on the unverified dialog again? Since we know that the creature can survive having the shell blown in half by an anti-tank rocket, only the impact is particularly impressive, and we see none of it. This -is- from the same people who literally buy any old shit if they think it's 'alien', remember - they're very credulous (and thus not very reliable) witnesses. Daleks are also able to survive being buried for yonks in mercury swamps, icy caves, etc, after all.

Thinking back to that disgustingly awful Manhattan serial, the Cult were low on power and their weapons were not just scratch-built, but probably a compromise (since they just needed soldiers stat) between desire and utility. Of course, that they were using BOTH superscience and slave races - instead of just singlehandedly conquering the world - suggests that maybe they're more aware of their limitations than certain fans.

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh, and who said anything about the Dalek in Dalek reentering unaided? It could've decelerated itself using its anti-grav whatsits, who knows. The amount of conjecture these guys make up just to go "HUR WE WIN YOU GUISE HAVE NO CHANCE!" is ridiculous.

[Stark]

Anything that hits the ground creates a crater, and they never give any dimensions for it. It was apparently hot, but there is no information at all about where he emerged, what his vector was, what his approach or impact he had with the ground. It's totally unquantifiable - and we see the casing; it appears to have sustained more damage from the cattle prod than the crash, which could well suggest that under the shield, Time War Daleks are just as fragile as the older ones.

[JointStrikeFighter]

They can also fall from orbit unaided, through the atmosphere (not burning up), and proceed to crash onto an island and burn in a crater for three days. Still being alive.

Yeah we don't actually know that at all; it "fell through time" and was "in a crater"

PS that would happen if it fell a whole 100m from a wormhole in the air

[ThePerson5]

Okay guys, let's take this debate in a whole different direction: replace the POTW fleet with the New Dalek Empire from Stolen Earth/Journey's End. The Daleks now have thousands of ships, are stationed in the Medusa Cascade at the Crucible (no reality bomb however), and have access to temporal technology (temporal prisons etc.) They still can't simply retcon the GE out of existence.

Who wins now?

[Stark]

The Empire, because the Daleks are so stupid they put Davros in a room with a 'kill all Daleks' button.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Let's just gloss over that for a moment

The JE Daleks have the ability to move planets around at FTL speeds on a galactic scale, possibly over larger distances. I would say this makes them at least as powerful as that Centrepoint Station shite.

What's to stop them yanking Coruscant into it's primary?

[Darth Tedious]

The JE Daleks have the ability to move planets around at FTL speeds on a galactic scale, possibly over larger distances. I would say this makes them at least as powerful as that Centrepoint Station shite.

What's to stop them yanking Coruscant into it's primary?

TIE fighters deployed into combat inside ISD hangars, the sudden mass-distribution of rare flechette guns and Stormtroopers who can dive 20 meters in a single bound to get out of the way of thermal detonater explosions. Haven't you been paying attention?
Apparently these things all make the Empire quite superior.

[ThePerson5]

The Empire, because the Daleks are so stupid they put Davros in a room with a 'kill all Daleks' button.

Davros didn't even contemplate betraying the Daleks, and they could never have predicted the whole DoctorDonna thing, so...

[ChosenOne54]

And then you bring in the fact that the Empire can't even launch an offensive, as they have no way of even reaching the Medusa Cascade.

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh wow, you mean to say that The Parting of the Ways was actually the title of the episode set in the Medusa Cascade with the Time War-era Daleks stealing planets and David Tennant shit-acting with that whale Donna and a prune-faced Davros, and it wasn't actually the title of a much earlier episode involving Christopher Eccelston's last run as the Ninth Doctor, involving the Dalek Emperor and a secret scavenged fleet of Daleks that had to recycle human genetic material, which happened in just the Sol system which is totally not in the Medusa Cascade and actually has nothing to do with that rubbish at all?

Oh wait



EDIT:

Oh, the scenarios been revised. In that case, they could try Death Starring the Crucible. Transporting large defenseless primitive Earth planets =/= smaller difficulter shielded jamming-capable war station.

Either way, these are Time War Daleks, so I guess they'd actually do better since Strak has pointed out how absolute shit those Parting of the Ways Daleks were. You'd need Daleks from the most ridiculous over-acted episode, amongst Tennant's worst, to actually win the VS debate.

[ChosenOne54]

Um...I think you should read my commet again.