Necrons vs. GE

[NecronLord]

Then why don't they ever do that? Why do they need ground troops at all if they can blast stuff from space with suc potency?

Most necron stories feature humans on planets already in the necron domain. They have ground troops there because they live there. That's like asking why a story has United States soldiers on the ground... in an invasion of the United States.

[NecronLord]

And that says nothing of the fact that the C'Tan are apparently able to seal off dimensions. What if the Nightbringer and the Deceiver are able to adapt their "Great Warding" and block off hyperspace forever? That would be utterly catastrophic for the SW galaxy. Especially worlds that can't feed themselves like Coruscant.

That seems unlikely. Especially as in some models (L. Neil Smith's Lando Calrissian Books, Saxton ICSes) hyperspace is just realspace from a tachyonic perspective.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In others though, is not hyperspace another dimension? If that is the correct model and the C'Tan figure that out, it can only end badly.

If hyperspace is indeed realspace as seen by tachyons, it goes slightly less bad, but the Necrons still hold an absurd advantage in speed and rough parity in firepower. That kind of speed advantage cancels out the numerical disadvantage methinks.

[NecronLord]

In others though, is not hyperspace another dimension? If that is the correct model and the C'Tan figure that out, it can only end badly.

If hyperspace is indeed realspace as seen by tachyons, it goes slightly less bad, but the Necrons still hold an absurd advantage in speed and rough parity in firepower. That kind of speed advantage cancels out the numerical disadvantage methinks.

Necron ships are very, very rare though. There may only be one Cairn active in 999.M41 (the Imperium has recorded only seven encounters with the class) for instance. They probably couldn't take the more fortified SW systems by direct force.


Why we're still discussing this when Palpatine is the easy route to victory I don't know though.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Why is Palpatine the easy route to victory? Victory for whom?

Do you mean the Necrons should storm the Imperial Palace and let the Nightbringer go all Grim Reaper on Palpy's arse?

[doom3607]

No, he means the Deciever murders Palpatine and takes his place. Instant win.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That works too.

[doom3607]

And the stupid Imperials would never even know the difference. To quote from the first time this was said:

Assume the Deceiver and Nightbringer are involved.

The Deceiver embarks on a transport at Naboo, gets off a Coruscant, walks into the Imperial Palace passing through every barrier on the way, while in the form of a stormtrooper, where he, being demonstratably faster (Wankatine never ruled the Galactic Empire, only Palpatine, who's not that quick), stronger, essentially immune to any practical amount of damage, and equipped with a variety of special skills, kills Palpatine and destroys the body, and assumes his form. He now rules the Galactic Empire. Anyone who spots the difference gets their head chopped off: no one questions this because Palpatine does that kind of thing all the time.

Total Necron victory, begin the harvest. Total time taken, approx 1 hr. Necron casualties 0.0.

This is much harder with the Galactic Republic, which doesn't have a massive single point of failure in the form of an unquestioned leader. Don't abandon democracy folks, or an alien star-god may replace your ruler.

Emphasis is mine. I think someone sigged that bit.

EDIT: dworkin did.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Damn, missed that bit. Even with the Republic it would be very very bad having the Deceiver in charge. Heck, with it's abilities for, well, deceiving people, he could talk the Senate into voting him in as Emperor, using the appearing Necron forces as the external threat. Basically, replicate what Palpatine did, and then it's the same result.

[NecronLord]

And the stupid Imperials would never even know the difference. To quote from the first time this was said:

Not much stupidity is required. They're actually quite similar even, though the Deceiver's personally a little more eccentric.

[The Reaper]

In others though, is not hyperspace another dimension? If that is the correct model and the C'Tan figure that out, it can only end badly.

If hyperspace is indeed realspace as seen by tachyons, it goes slightly less bad, but the Necrons still hold an absurd advantage in speed and rough parity in firepower. That kind of speed advantage cancels out the numerical disadvantage methinks.

Necron ships are very, very rare though. There may only be one Cairn active in 999.M41 (the Imperium has recorded only seven encounters with the class) for instance. They probably couldn't take the more fortified SW systems by direct force.


Why we're still discussing this when Palpatine is the easy route to victory I don't know though.

There is a picture in BFG that shows several Cairns "flying" next to each other, so it is fair to say there are at least a couple active.

And a Necron Lord in Deus Ex Mechanicus is able to go disguised as a Magos. So a Necron Lord could disguise as the Emperor if the Deceiver is busy.

[NecronLord]

In others though, is not hyperspace another dimension? If that is the correct model and the C'Tan figure that out, it can only end badly.

If hyperspace is indeed realspace as seen by tachyons, it goes slightly less bad, but the Necrons still hold an absurd advantage in speed and rough parity in firepower. That kind of speed advantage cancels out the numerical disadvantage methinks.

Necron ships are very, very rare though. There may only be one Cairn active in 999.M41 (the Imperium has recorded only seven encounters with the class) for instance. They probably couldn't take the more fortified SW systems by direct force.


Why we're still discussing this when Palpatine is the easy route to victory I don't know though.

There is a picture in BFG that shows several Cairns "flying" next to each other, so it is fair to say there are at least a couple active.

I'm really not sure about the canonical value of the photo-chopped pics of ships in BFG mag. I'd generally be pretty dubious about them. They're pictures of models; By that standard, every cadian regiment seems to have that same ramrod straight officer in it.

The only one I know of offhand is p.8 in BFG mag 2.

You're not thinking of this are you?

[NecronLord]

And a Necron Lord in Deus Ex Mechanicus is able to go disguised as a Magos. So a Necron Lord could disguise as the Emperor if the Deceiver is busy.

That's the Deceiver himself. He's a little different from the C'tan rules (Deus Ex Mechanicus was written before the necron codex), but his willingness to bash down a door instead of just step through it can be simply attributed to his love of melodrama.

You may be thinking of the bit in Xenology, Spoiler

which features Inquisitor Maturin Ralei, a necron who says that his "master is a most talented deceiver"

[Norade]

I don't think the True C'Tan will even exist anymore once the new Necron codex comes out if the rumors about the fluff are true.

[The Reaper]

And a Necron Lord in Deus Ex Mechanicus is able to go disguised as a Magos. So a Necron Lord could disguise as the Emperor if the Deceiver is busy.

That's the Deceiver himself. He's a little different from the C'tan rules (Deus Ex Mechanicus was written before the necron codex), but his willingness to bash down a door instead of just step through it can be simply attributed to his love of melodrama.

You may be thinking of the bit in Xenology, Spoiler

which features Inquisitor Maturin Ralei, a necron who says that his "master is a most talented deceiver"

Yeah I got the two mixed up, what with him supposedly coming out of he tomb, and the Staff of Light.

Also the picture I am referring to is in the Necron Codex Pg.59 if Adobe isn't lying to me. Shows multiple ones flying around.

[NecronLord]

I don't think the True C'Tan will even exist anymore once the new Necron codex comes out if the rumors about the fluff are true.

Don't hold your breath, it's wishful thinking by C'tan haters; the same people loudly screeched that the writeup in the 5th Edition core book proved that there had never been any C'tan. They were of course, proven wrong when GW had its most respected novelist write about the Void Dragon in Titanicus and Mechanicum, and let Sandy Mitchell get bits about them into the Cain books, along with their most recent detailed mention, in the Deathwatch RPG.
Spoiler

The rumours don't say that the existing C'tan will be removed from background, merely the tabletop army; the possible existance of 'fragments' of C'tan doesn't retcon the four survivors still being around any more than Xenology's mention of a fifth C'tan in the same paragraph retcons there only being four of them.

The same codex rumours suggest that they've been considering a chaos style 'upgrade as per patron god' thing as well.

[Imperial Overlord]

It frankly makes a lot more sense that way. It's one thing to nerf Greater Daemons down so that they can be used on table top but its going too far to nerf down a being that can rival a Chaos God down to something useable in a skirmish game. "Who is going to tell a batshit insane Necron Lord loaded down with alien super tech he isn't a vampiric stargod?" is a much better solution. I also like the hints of more personality (and mental illness) in Necrons in general and imperfectly repaired Necrons in the 5th Edition, but that might just because I'm a sick bastard who likes the idea of half crippled, mad Necrons hunting Dark Heresy PCs through slowly reawakening hypertech tombs.

[MrDakka]

Spoiler

So no more C'tan assuming direct control at the table top?

Spoiler tag applied by NL.

[NecronLord]

It frankly makes a lot more sense that way. It's one thing to nerf Greater Daemons down so that they can be used on table top but its going too far to nerf down a being that can rival a Chaos God down to something useable in a skirmish game. "Who is going to tell a batshit insane Necron Lord loaded down with alien super tech he isn't a vampiric stargod?" is a much better solution. I also like the hints of more personality (and mental illness) in Necrons in general and imperfectly repaired Necrons in the 5th Edition, but that might just because I'm a sick bastard who likes the idea of half crippled, mad Necrons hunting Dark Heresy PCs through slowly reawakening hypertech tombs.

I like everything you just said, but the thing is, the C'tan-haters want them completely up and out of the background; which is an obnoxious retcon at best and in most cases sore beans. I agree that they should never appear in actual games.

[Elessar]

I wouldn't assume they travel at that speed all the time - the Necrons in Dark took quite a bit longer to cross the galaxy to reach the place Marduk and the Word Bearers were attacking, as I recall.

Sort of, the first book ends with it going somewhere, and then when they finally show up in the third, they journey rather rapidly. None of their journeys seem to take appreciable time, so much as searching for the thing. But it's hard to know from that.

It's also possible that the modern 'harvest ships' aren't up to the same standard as those used against the Old Ones.

A bit of an old quote, but the Necron ship in Dark Creed didn't start towards the Boros System until the Word Bearers attacked the system and used their plot device. Then the campaign last another month or two where the Imperials and the White Consuls were ground down. Only then does the Necron show up.

It's fast for 40k warp travel, but that example was fairly tame as far as Necrons go...

[Imperial Overlord]

I like everything you just said, but the thing is, the C'tan-haters want them completely up and out of the background; which is an obnoxious retcon at best and in most cases sore beans. I agree that they should never appear in actual games.

I don't much like the C'tan. I find them a little overpowered and ridiculously capable and indestructible, but since they're sharing the same setting with heinously powerful warp gods and super schemers like Tzeentch I can't object to their inclusion on those grounds. It's fully a matter of taste and retconning them out of existence does the setting no favors. Whining about which set of eldritch, primeval horrors is better is kind of petty.

And deranged Necron Lords armed to the gills with delusions of godhood are so awesome that they alone justify the existence of the C'tan.

[Norade]

I guess I'm behind on the rumors as I thought there were real sources for something happening to the big 4/5 C'Tan. The rumors made it sounds like they fragmented into the smaller table top ones.

[NecronLord]

Okay.

Rumour Round Up, Rumour Round Up... ♪♪
Spoiler

There were many C'tan.

Some or even most of them were destroyed in a rebellion by the necrons, that left them dead, and parts of them, remnants, "enslaved" - how you enslave something without it being meaningfully alive I don't know.

A 'fragment' of a C'tan will be a tabletop elite choice, and will be customisable (with powers that in some ways exceed current TT ones, and may let you fill out the same role in an army) with a variety of purchaseable upgrades.

The big four C'tan are still there; whether or not all necrons are followers of them, and how they're involved with them is not known.

Some have suggested that there will be 'Mark of Chaos' style upgrades for necrons according to which of the four remaining C'tan they follow.

[the atom]

I don't understand what all the C'tan hate is about. I think the concept that the materium has eldritch abomination Gods of it's own is a pretty cool idea.

[Purple]

I don't understand what all the C'tan hate is about. I think the concept that the materium has eldritch abomination Gods of it's own is a pretty cool idea.

Well, the hate is not so much directed against the C'tan but against the whole change in lore that they necessitated.
You see, back in the day things sounded a bit different in 40K. Like for example, there was newer any talk of the old ones. The Eldar gods were something closer to warp gods and not just Old Ones/Old One constructs. The Emperor was likewise not an Old One/Old One construct or what ever they like to paint him as but actually simply the greatest of all man kind. You had a feeling that yes its grimdark and yes things are going to shit but at least it had some meaning. Now the whole thing just turns out the be the meaningless fallout of some war that happened ages ago.