Imperial Manticoran Navy vs. Minbari Federation Fleet

[Simon_Jester]

I can't think of any meaningful points in the series itself where the outcome of any specific event hinges on the ship's ability to maneuver within the wedge. Can you?

Probably the best example of it is when a bunch of ships got killed with thier sidewalls down while traveling through 'safe' territories by Mesan's ships, as the Mesans where sitting inactive just watching till those ships showed up and then resolved the target lock via passive LIDAR.

...I don't understand how the ability of the ship to shift its position inside a wedge made a difference in this case. Could you explain?

[StarSword]

Ghost Rider is more than just the long-range missiles, it also includes the super-stealth Ghost Rider recon drones.
And if you take Keyhole into account... Sadly, the BCs can't use Keyhole-II, but I should give an additional edge in sensor data.

Conceded. Like I said, it's been a while, and I've only read up to Ashes of Victory. What's Keyhole?

Regardless, your theory requires the unmanned sensor platforms to be in place to detect the enemy beforehand. In the OP's scenario, they wouldn't be deployed since the Manticorans just arrived in-system.

They would be deployed the second they get in-system, unless both fleets basically materialise at point-blank range (at which point sensor quality is moot, anyway). And if they have time, they will deploy their drones, and it will increase their ability to "see".

Maybe things changed after Ashes of Victory, but the last time I checked, the sensor platforms were used defensively, to give system defense fleets early warning of hostiles. IIRC, this was one of the reasons the 8th Fleet scored such an overwhelming victory in Second Basilisk: early alerts from deep-space sensor platforms enabled the fleet to make it through the Junction in time to flatten the Havenite incursion. It didn't hurt that they had a sizable squadron of vengeful Grayson-crewed podnaughts, either.

Lady Harrington, and no mercy!

And additionally: don't Minbari use gravity-manipulating technology for their propulsion? Would be the question if and how they get picked up by HH gravitics (and even non-Impeller-equipped "stuff" can be picked up by gravitics, if they are sensitive enough or the signal is big enough).

I'll buy that. Providing the Minbari do use gravity drives of one form or another (I know next to nothing about the Babylon 5 universe so I wouldn't know), the Manticorans should be able to pick them up. They may or may not know what they're looking at (I doubt a Minbari gravity drive would read the same as an Honorverse impeller wedge), but they'll pick them up.

[Ahriman238]

Conceded. Like I said, it's been a while, and I've only read up to Ashes of Victory. What's Keyhole?

It's a sensor platform towed by tractor beam outside of the wedge, sending information inside. It gets around one of the major weaknesses, that the wedge is a blind spot and no starship ever knows what's going on directly above or below it.

Later, a stealthy Keyhole is given a small laser head and sent in before the fleet to knock out enemy infastructure, particularly those used for fire control. It's named Mistletoe (sneaks in and gives you a kiss.)

I'll buy that. Providing the Minbari do use gravity drives of one form or another (I know next to nothing about the Babylon 5 universe so I wouldn't know), the Manticorans should be able to pick them up. They may or may not know what they're looking at (I doubt a Minbari gravity drive would read the same as an Honorverse impeller wedge), but they'll pick them up.

They do, but we know almost nothing about how it works or how well it performs.

[Batman]

Ghost Rider is more than just the long-range missiles, it also includes the super-stealth Ghost Rider recon drones.
And if you take Keyhole into account... Sadly, the BCs can't use Keyhole-II, but I should give an additional edge in sensor data.

Conceded. Like I said, it's been a while, and I've only read up to Ashes of Victory. What's Keyhole?

Keyhole is a remote sensor/communications platfor to get around the blind angles imparted by the ship's impeller wedges. The Keyhole platforms are deployed outside the wedge to essentially give the deploying ship 360° sensor/communications coverage. Keyhole I lightspeed, Keyhole II FTL.

Regardless, your theory requires the unmanned sensor platforms to be in place to detect the enemy beforehand. In the OP's scenario, they wouldn't be deployed since the Manticorans just arrived in-system.

They would be deployed the second they get in-system, unless both fleets basically materialise at point-blank range (at which point sensor quality is moot, anyway). And if they have time, they will deploy their drones, and it will increase their ability to "see".

Maybe things changed after Ashes of Victory, but the last time I checked, the sensor platforms were used defensively, to give system defense fleets early warning of hostiles.

You're confusing stationary sensor arrays with sensor platforms. Yes, the massive sensor arrays that cover important stare systems are completely defensive[/i]. This is about sensor drones (i.e. the aforementioned Ghost Rider platforms) that are routinely deployed to move forward of an attacking fleet and sniff out the opposition.

IIRC, this was one of the reasons the 8th Fleet scored such an overwhelming victory in Second Basilisk: early alerts from deep-space sensor platforms enabled the fleet to make it through the Junction in time to flatten the Havenite incursion.

Again, that was fixed system survey arrays. Thanas is talking about forward deployed sensor drones.

And additionally: don't Minbari use gravity-manipulating technology for their propulsion? Would be the question if and how they get picked up by HH gravitics (and even non-Impeller-equipped "stuff" can be picked up by gravitics, if they are sensitive enough or the signal is big enough).

I'll buy that. Providing the Minbari do use gravity drives of one form or another (I know next to nothing about the Babylon 5 universe so I wouldn't know),

Neither does anybody else I suspect. The nature of Minbari sublight drives is completely undetermined other than being labelled 'gravimagnetic' if memory serves. They may, may not, or may sort of with varying degrees of accuracy show up on gravitic sensors.

the Manticorans should be able to pick them up. They may or may not know what they're looking at (I doubt a Minbari gravity drive would read the same as an Honorverse impeller wedge), but they'll pick them up.

Or not, and at completely undeterminable ranges.

[StarSword]

It's a sensor platform towed by tractor beam outside of the wedge, sending information inside. It gets around one of the major weaknesses, that the wedge is a blind spot and no starship ever knows what's going on directly above or below it.

Keyhole is a remote sensor/communications platform to get around the blind angles imparted by the ship's impeller wedges. The Keyhole platforms are deployed outside the wedge to essentially give the deploying ship 360° sensor/communications coverage. Keyhole I lightspeed, Keyhole II FTL.

So, Keyhole is kinda like a towed sonar array on a submarine, only different. Clever.

You're confusing stationary sensor arrays with sensor platforms. Yes, the massive sensor arrays that cover important star systems are completely defensive. This is about sensor drones (i.e. the aforementioned Ghost Rider platforms) that are routinely deployed to move forward of an attacking fleet and sniff out the opposition.

Whoops.

You're completely correct: I misunderstood the terminology. I was thinking of "sensor platforms" as deep-space early warning systems, not recon drones.

the Manticorans should be able to pick them up. They may or may not know what they're looking at (I doubt a Minbari gravity drive would read the same as an Honorverse impeller wedge), but they'll pick them up.

Or not, and at completely undeterminable ranges.

I still maintain they'd pick something up, but as you say, "what" and "how soon" are more pressing concerns.

[Batman]

Of course, this goes both ways-we have no way to know what if anything the Minbari can make of impeller wedges, assuming they can even detect them.
One massive advantage the Minbari have is (in the overall scenario, not the initial fleet bout) interstellar realtime communications. The Manties are limited to tactical insystem and 60c (last time I checked) while still relying on couriers for interstellar.

[Dahak]

Again, that was fixed system survey arrays. Thanas is talking about forward deployed sensor drones.

Just a minor nitpick, but this one is not Thanas

[Batman]

Again, that was fixed system survey arrays. Thanas is talking about forward deployed sensor drones.

Just a minor nitpick, but this one is not Thanas

Sorry about that.

[Batman]

In my defense, the two of you are the most prominent male german members, and you both have two 'a's in your username

[Lord of the Abyss]

Later, a stealthy Keyhole is given a small laser head and sent in before the fleet to knock out enemy infastructure, particularly those used for fire control. It's named Mistletoe (sneaks in and gives you a kiss.)

Some also use contact nukes (which have generally been very effective weapons against B5 ships).

"More of their damned recon platforms. It had to be. They got old-fashioned nukes—the yields are somewhere in the five-hundred-megaton range—close enough to the pods to take them out with proximity explosions."