Honor Harrington film news.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

And the Napoleonic garbage really isn't as dense as you make it out to be, IMO. Names are stolen from there and may need to be tweaked or worked around, things like that, but it's not visually or culturally all that Napoleonic. You won't have people dressing like extras from Sharpe's Rifles going about on starships or anything.

The exception to that would be the Death's Head Hussars of the Andermani Empire, a Prussian-themed empire founded by a mercenary who thought he was Frederick the Great reincarnated, on a planet populated almost (if not) entirely by people of Chinese extraction. His descendant Gustav VI was overthrown, after trying to make his prized rose bush Chancellor, by his sister Gustav VII, who declared herself a man in order to take the throne (having the home fleet on her side helped, a lot).

[Connor MacLeod]

The first three books in the series (and, IMHO Book six) are probably the best, the most self contained, and the most true to the "original" scope of the series before things started changing. Book 4 was a bit weaker, but that was because (for me at least) it feels like filler - its preparation for book 5 onwards, and having the impact of book 4 undone after just one onvel was, to me a bit silly (which is another reason why you can pair 4 and 5 together, really.)

But the first three are an Honor Harington who, while clearly a special character, is not the character she becomes post book 6-8 (depending on where you decide the series really got screwy) - she still makes mistakes, she needs people to help her, etc. The combat isn't so nearly one sided, either.

Oh yeah I recalled another thing about the MDMs that bug me (while I am going to rant about that.) Having such a massive ramp up in velocity was, in my mind, problematic because it introduced the idea that every missile is basically a continent/planet killer package.. still used to deliver megaton range warheads. Whilst gigaton range KE missiles to deliver megaton range warheads wasn't exactly SENSIBLE either, the disparity wasn't quite so evident or absurd, especially when the technology proliferates and we know that there are Space Terrorists/Fanatics out there. Or Manpower. Even the ERidani edict makes it hard to rationalize things when most powers are packing MDMs so casually, or throwing them around. (not so much because of an accidental miss, but just because it would be too easy to waste a planet given how extensive missile salvoes have become.)

and if we're REALLY blunt... nothing about MDMs really required such a ramping up in missile velocities, they still could have been OMFG HUGE LONG RANGE DOOM weapons at the established in universe velocities (or maybe slightly better). Such missiles would be easier to track, of course, but thats's hardly a bad thing - it would have actually made podnoughts and MDMs seem much less lopsided in favor of Manticore. (besides there is still Manticore's superior EW, and the fact they make extensive use of EW missiles and such to help penetrate defenses.)

[Simon_Jester]

And the Napoleonic garbage really isn't as dense as you make it out to be, IMO. Names are stolen from there and may need to be tweaked or worked around, things like that, but it's not visually or culturally all that Napoleonic. You won't have people dressing like extras from Sharpe's Rifles going about on starships or anything.

The exception to that would be the Death's Head Hussars of the Andermani Empire, a Prussian-themed empire founded by a mercenary who thought he was Frederick the Great reincarnated, on a planet populated almost (if not) entirely by people of Chinese extraction. His descendant Gustav VI was overthrown, after trying to make his prized rose bush Chancellor, by his sister Gustav VII, who declared herself a man in order to take the throne (having the home fleet on her side helped, a lot).

Yeah, yeah. They're a pastiche of the Napoleonic Prussians and the Swedes, I know.

My point is that the "Napoleonic" aspects of the Honorverse setting are all trappings- they don't impact the fact that these are basically modern societies interacting with each other, with all the paraphernelia of modern civilization: 24-hour news cycles, easy travel, widely accepted concepts of universal human rights* that everyone pays lip service to.

Hell, I'd argue that the Peeps owe more to Weber's perception of the late Cold War Soviet Union than they do to Revolutionary France.
___________

*What those rights are depends on who you ask: A Manticoran, a Grayson, and a PRH-era Havenite will have different ideas of which rights matter and which rights don't. But everyone believes they exist for everyone, which is very much an artifact of modernity.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually I don't think its all just "trappings" because alot about the combat seems to reflect that sort of style as well, and the technology was designed around providing that. It even impacts the ground combat to an extent (which isnt to say tanks or other such vehicles don't exist, but HV ground combat clearly emphasizes battle armor in conjunction with pinnace/drop ship and orbital support in most cases.) Wall of battle, sidewalls/broadsides, "crossing the T". Energy torpedoes (which are, to my mind, sci fi carronades) and so on.

This is not a criticism, or neccesarily evne a bad thing. I don't understand why some people think that because you call it "age of sail in space" it suddenly becomes horrid (unless you're one of those types who get outraged because it doesn't conform to YOUR idea of Sci fi.) Hell 40K does that sort of shit all the time. AS does David Drake (learyverse, Hammers Slammmers, etc.) and they aren't "worse" for it in my mind (Eg Gaunt's Ghosts). I actually happen to like that sort of shit. Its a bit like mecha anime trying ot justify giant robots as a significant military force, I suppose.

[Simon_Jester]

Actually I don't think its all just "trappings" because alot about the combat seems to reflect that sort of style as well, and the technology was designed around providing that. It even impacts the ground combat to an extent (which isnt to say tanks or other such vehicles don't exist, but HV ground combat clearly emphasizes battle armor in conjunction with pinnace/drop ship and orbital support in most cases.) Wall of battle, sidewalls/broadsides, "crossing the T". Energy torpedoes (which are, to my mind, sci fi carronades) and so on.

The emphasis on space-dropped infantry with aerospace craft, but without tanks, in support could be "Age of Sail..." or it could be a simple evolution of existing airborne infantry doctrines; the 82nd Airborne doesn't count very much on tanks either, you know. When you fly around in volume-limited starships, you need volume-limited weapon systems to fight with, simple as that.

The wedge/sidewall/broadside/battle-wall concept in some ways resembles Age of Sail, but again, I would argue it's a pretty straightforward thing to have in any spacegoing warfare fought by numerous ships. Look at it this way: you design an arbitrary starship. Presumably its main axis of thrust will be along one dimension of the hull, so there's a well defined "forwards" and "backwards." Where are you going to put your ship's main armament?

You can mount it forward, which has advantages (long barrels tucked into your core hull where they're well protected) and disadvantages (you may not be able to shoot at the enemy and back away at the same time; your effective firing arcs are very limited when dealing with an enemy dispersed into multiple groups). Or you can mount it along the sides (with turrets for 'direct fire' weapons if possible, or with launch tubes or VLS-type cells for missiles). Which has, if you ask me, a lot more advantages. You get more flexibility in how you maneuver while fighting, because your main engines aren't stuck in a direction that pushes you closer and closer to the enemy whenever you want your guns to bear.

"Sidewalls" become a predictable expansion of this: if you have any kind of shielding technology, you will want to arrange it to cover the ship against enemy fire coming from the direction it is most likely to be shot at. Since it is a warship, and will usually be shot at while firing its own weapons back at the enemy, this means you want to put the shields over the parts of the ships with weapons on them- those will face the enemy. If you designed your ship with the guns pointing to the sides, that means putting your shield coverage on the sides.

I think that talking about this as "broadsides -> Age of Sail" oversimplifies the equation. Ultimately, the use of broadsides in military vehicle design isn't about sails or any other means of propulsion. It's about the constraints of fighting in a multi-dimensional universe, where you have to decide whether you want your weapons to mostly fire parallel to your line of motion, or perpendicular to it.

Now, I know there's a lot more going on than this, but I still feel that the bits of the HH novels which remind readers of Age of Sail are relatively superficial- the characters don't think like Napoleonic officers or politicians or commoners, the recurring themes of Napoleonic-era combat that distinguish it from any other era of combat* aren't there.

*Commanders in personal danger because they are in firearm range of enemy ships while in combat, boarding actions commonplace, ships largely self-sufficient and capable of cruising for years without outside support or maintenance, extremely harsh discipline in place by which members of the officer 'elite' could punish the lower-class rank and file largely at will...

This is not a criticism, or neccesarily evne a bad thing. I don't understand why some people think that because you call it "age of sail in space" it suddenly becomes horrid (unless you're one of those types who get outraged because it doesn't conform to YOUR idea of Sci fi.) Hell 40K does that sort of shit all the time. AS does David Drake (learyverse, Hammers Slammmers, etc.) and they aren't "worse" for it in my mind (Eg Gaunt's Ghosts). I actually happen to like that sort of shit. Its a bit like mecha anime trying ot justify giant robots as a significant military force, I suppose.

It's mostly that I perceive there to be many ways in which the technical paradigm at the start of the series is more like (naval) WWI in space than the Napoleonic Wars in space.

You have many of the same basic strategic elements; about the only thing missing is the submarine, which would have been a historical afterthought if it weren't for Germany, specifically going for U-boats in a big way.

I don't dissent from the "Age of Sail in Space" concept because I think it would make the story worse; I dissent from it because in my mind it looks nothing like a real "Age of Sail in Space" series (like the Learyverse).

[StarSword]

You won't have people dressing like extras from Sharpe's Rifles going about on starships or anything.

Mind you, the Marines *would* look very (pardon the pun) Sharpeish, in their green uniforms.

Sean Bean as 'Grizzled Royal Manticorian Marine Sar'Major'? Yes I could see that happening.

Me too. And maybe Charlize Theron as Honor?

BTW, edaw1982, your sig quote is fouled up.

[Thanas]

I'll eat my hat if Theron will ever be linked to such a project.

[Stofsk]

Dude - she's played a fucking cartoon character. Playing the heroin of a sci-fi book series can't be any worse than an MTV cartoon.

(don't worry, i'm not seriously arguing Charlize Theron would ever attach her name to it)

[Thanas]

Dude - she's played a fucking cartoon character. Playing the heroin of a sci-fi book series can't be any worse than an MTV cartoon.

You mean the 60 million blockbuster project? I very much doubt Weber will get that kind of funding.

[Enigma]

For some reason I picture Angelina Jolie as Honor.

[Simon_Jester]

She's been suggested for the part. She could bring it off (anyone remember her in Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow?)

If you're actually trying to make the movie work, you do need an actress with a certain amount of physicality to her, and one who can capture Honor's command presence.

[Thanas]

You mean coming across as an arrogant cold-hearted overachiever? Because that is how her crew sees her for the first book etc. The command presence really only came up in the later books when she became puuuuuuurrrfect, in the first book she is pretty much cold-blooded tactician.

[Uraniun235]

For some reason I picture Angelina Jolie as Honor.

I thought I read in Basilisk Station that she was explicitly described as not being a knockout babe.

[Connor MacLeod]

You mean coming across as an arrogant cold-hearted overachiever? Because that is how her crew sees her for the first book etc. The command presence really only came up in the later books when she became puuuuuuurrrfect, in the first book she is pretty much cold-blooded tactician.

I see that as being yet another "Hornblowerism" - the way she(he) was supposed to be shy and uncertain and stuff yet the crew was unfailingly loyal and loved him(her) for being her (him) and never even realizing it. Problem was he never quite stuck to that later on.

I don't quite object to the way she kept changing, even if it was fast, but I never did care for the way things kept piling onto her more and more as time went on (how fast she rose to the admiralty, the way she was gone from the Manticoran navy for one whole book, then picked up as if nothing had happened.) - and then there's all the Grayson stuff (becoming a steadholder kinda makes sense, as does making her an Admiral, but after that things got a bit silly.)

[Connor MacLeod]

For some reason I picture Angelina Jolie as Honor.

I thought I read in Basilisk Station that she was explicitly described as not being a knockout babe.

Weber kinda uses some confusing language to convey it.. she's attractive (and people all notice it even if she doesn't) but its not in the way you typically think. What exactly the "typical" is supposed to be we're never told.

Which is really sort of the problem with the character - she has "flaws" sort of, but they really aren't flaws. She's bad at math but this never really, seriously hampers her. She's sexually awkward (which lasts all of three books), she has a temper (which only rarely causes serious problems, unless the plot demands it like book 4), she's insecure (which lasts a bit longer than the rest, but ends eventually and never was a real significant drawback unless, again, the plot requires it.) And so on. And then there's the whole "Genetically engineered superbeing who can eat what she wants and kick the ass of anyone who faces her". Even the injuries she suffers are never really drawbacks (she can shoot pulser darts out of her finger, for crying out loud.) The "pretty" bit is even relatively minor compared to the rest.

It was more tolerable in earlier books, relatively speaking, because it was muted and everything else about the SKM (and Honor's Career, political, social life) hadn't taken off like the insane rocket it becomes. But once you pile on the increasingly numerous "achievement unlocked" and "upgrade researched" stuff, the flaws become all the more noticable and take what tension there was left in the series, I suppose.

[Simon_Jester]

You mean coming across as an arrogant cold-hearted overachiever? Because that is how her crew sees her for the first book etc. The command presence really only came up in the later books when she became puuuuuuurrrfect, in the first book she is pretty much cold-blooded tactician.

I'm not sure I'd follow that assessment. By the end of the book she's demonstrated a higher level of command presence than that, in my opinion. There is a shift in characterization between On Basilisk Station and Honor of the Queen, I think, mostly in that Weber is trying a little harder to humanize her. But I question the idea that she's all tactics and no personality, in the first book.

If she's perceived as an "arrogant cold-hearted overachiever" in the first book by her crew, that perception is, I think, quite temporary, such that it even begins to fade during that same book.

For some reason I picture Angelina Jolie as Honor.

I thought I read in Basilisk Station that she was explicitly described as not being a knockout babe.

Yep. She's big, bony, and pays minimal attention to her appearance in the early books. Athletic, which is nice if you're into that, I guess.

Thing is, where in Hollywood are you going to find an actress who isn't physically attractive? Whoever you pick is going to be prettier than 'real' Honor does, as far as I can tell.

Which is really sort of the problem with the character - she has "flaws" sort of, but they really aren't flaws. She's bad at math but this never really, seriously hampers her. She's sexually awkward (which lasts all of three books), she has a temper (which only rarely causes serious problems, unless the plot demands it like book 4)...

The people she provokes out of bad temper in books 1 and 2 nearly manage to get her killed as an attempt at revenge in book 6, but that's about it. She mostly avoids the immediate repercussions of her lashing-out in those books by, well, being right and winning difficult battles.

[sigh]

Definitely triggers Mary Sue warning lights. The people she gets mad at are always the ones who are in the wrong.

Insecurity does cause at least one disastrous problem in book 2- she takes three of her four ships away from Grayson to escort a convoy. Because she herself has a profound lack of faith in her own ability to handle the patriarchal Graysons without imperiling the diplomatic mission, she decides to pull her own (relatively powerful) flagship out on the convoy escort. The only ship she leaves behind is a small destroyer. Since the Masadans attack Grayson while the convoy is away, this means only one (small) modern warship is available to protect the system from their attack.

The result: the Masadans win a battle in which they wreck most of the Grayson navy, blow up the destroyer, kill Honor's mentor who was leading the diplomatic mission, and are now in a position to devastate the system more or less at will before she gets back to save the day.

If Honor had kept her own ship in the system and sent the destroyer to help guard the convoy, she might well have been able to blunt the Masadan attack entirely, making the bloody fighting of the latter half of the book unnecessary.

It was more tolerable in earlier books, relatively speaking, because it was muted and everything else about the SKM (and Honor's Career, political, social life) hadn't taken off like the insane rocket it becomes. But once you pile on the increasingly numerous "achievement unlocked" and "upgrade researched" stuff, the flaws become all the more noticable and take what tension there was left in the series, I suppose.

Yes.

[Thanas]

You mean coming across as an arrogant cold-hearted overachiever? Because that is how her crew sees her for the first book etc. The command presence really only came up in the later books when she became puuuuuuurrrfect, in the first book she is pretty much cold-blooded tactician.

I see that as being yet another "Hornblowerism" - the way she(he) was supposed to be shy and uncertain and stuff yet the crew was unfailingly loyal and loved him(her) for being her (him) and never even realizing it. Problem was he never quite stuck to that later on.

It is not even correctly translated from Hornblower. She is a second-rate copy. Forrester blows Weber right out of the water. He has more characterization in one paragraph than Weber in a whole book.

[Stofsk]

Dude - she's played a fucking cartoon character. Playing the heroin of a sci-fi book series can't be any worse than an MTV cartoon.

You mean the 60 million blockbuster project?

Yeah, which was a flop and by all accounts an awful film.

I very much doubt Weber will get that kind of funding.

I very much doubt that too - I wasn't seriously suggesting she'd go for it. My only point is that actors, even A-list ones, often get attached to big budget flops.

[Crazedwraith]

60mil counts as a big budget? I thought that was titchy for a modern film...

[Stofsk]

60mil counts as a big budget? I thought that was titchy for a modern film...

It's on the low-end of the scale. But 60 million isn't exactly chump change.

[Imperial Overlord]

Honor turns into a babe when she gets a makeover in one of the early books (third? fourth? I can't remember) so its not like having someone good looking playing her is a serious consistency issue. Besides, everyone gets three times better looking in a Hollywood movie. Having someone hot play her is not a problem, it's inevitable.

[Simon_Jester]

Honor turns into a babe when she gets a makeover in one of the early books (third? fourth? I can't remember) so its not like having someone good looking playing her is a serious consistency issue. Besides, everyone gets three times better looking in a Hollywood movie...

Yeah. I mean, shit...

Compare Vasily Zaitsev, the Soviet sniper...



...to the guy who played him in Enemy at the Gates.



The real Zaitsev would probably laugh his head off finding out he was played by a guy like Jude Law.

[Connor MacLeod]

It is not even correctly translated from Hornblower. She is a second-rate copy. Forrester blows Weber right out of the water. He has more characterization in one paragraph than Weber in a whole book.

Pfft. I like Hornblower but he's almost as much of a "special snowflake" as Honor is. He's brilliant, ALWAYS has the best luck, he always gets the ladies, his crewmembers always like him, he never ever has any really serious enemies, he never screws up. Hell this is part and parcel of that type of fiction - its always the Heroic and Noble and Mighty Royal Navy doing what it needs to to stop the Evil Bonaparte and his minions. You get that sort of shit even worse in Aubrey/Maturin novels (which quickly become the LOTR of naval fiction, IMHO. Incredibly detailed but also so mind numbingly dull.) I dont know about Ramage (havent gotten around to reading those) and its been ages since I read an Alan Lewrie novel, but I know its been done more "balanced." I can forgive alot of that really (CF when he knowingly lies to protect England by saying Bonaparte is dead, then finds out he really IS dead..) But I'm not sure how you can say he's a better character,

If there is any difference between the two it would be up to the differences in Weber and Forrester's writing. And I'll admit there's lots of stuff in the way Weber writes that makes me cringe.

slight off topic: The Hornblower TV movies were excellent. They should have made more of those.

[Connor MacLeod]

The people she provokes out of bad temper in books 1 and 2 nearly manage to get her killed as an attempt at revenge in book 6, but that's about it. She mostly avoids the immediate repercussions of her lashing-out in those books by, well, being right and winning difficult battles.

[sigh]

Definitely triggers Mary Sue warning lights. The people she gets mad at are always the ones who are in the wrong.

Weber should have kept her temper and her total disinterest in politics. It really gets indefensible when she's a master tactician, master strategist, master steadholder, and suddenly becomes a Master Politician on top of that. Part of this stems from forcing her into the nobilility of Manticore AND Grayson at book 2. It basically just ends up killing off what few tangible "flaws" she had that could have kept her interesting.

I've also never been really happy with the way he decided to stick her with White Haven. I know thats another Hornblower analogy but it just never really clicked with me. Not os much that she married, but that it had to be White Haven (who happened to get adopted by Nimitiz' mate.. etc.) Or if it did happen there could have just been some better handled tension (things just ended up too perfectly and the whole subplot became rather pointless I think.)

Insecurity does cause at least one disastrous problem in book 2- she takes three of her four ships away from Grayson to escort a convoy. Because she herself has a profound lack of faith in her own ability to handle the patriarchal Graysons without imperiling the diplomatic mission, she decides to pull her own (relatively powerful) flagship out on the convoy escort. The only ship she leaves behind is a small destroyer. Since the Masadans attack Grayson while the convoy is away, this means only one (small) modern warship is available to protect the system from their attack.

The result: the Masadans win a battle in which they wreck most of the Grayson navy, blow up the destroyer, kill Honor's mentor who was leading the diplomatic mission, and are now in a position to devastate the system more or less at will before she gets back to save the day.


If Honor had kept her own ship in the system and sent the destroyer to help guard the convoy, she might well have been able to blunt the Masadan attack entirely, making the bloody fighting of the latter half of the book unnecessary.

Yeah, I was thinking about this just now, since I just finished the audiobook version of HoTQ recently. And some of that in book 1 sa well, which is why they remain some of the better ones in the series. I don't recall any major examples in book 3, and in book 4 her major fuckup is pretty much demanded by plot (and gets fixed one book later anyhow.)

Having just finished it again, I can see alot of ways in which Weber has pretty much set the stage for fucking up the character later on. Like I said, she got crammed WAY too early into politics, nobility, etc. which pretty much killed any chance for easy development. I don't mind her getting wealthier, and I understand some of the reasons for making her a Steadholder, but Steadholder AND Manticoran noble (even if the reason given made some sesnse) was pretty absurd. I would have held off at least til book 4-5 before the whole Steadholder bit.

I also think that Weber fucked up in book 6 by bringing Honor back to the Navy too early. Given that he eventually had the Graysons and Manticore more or less merging their alliances (lots of cross training and merged fleets, like eighth fleet) Honor could have easily stayed with the Graysons and still interacted with the Manticore side of things. Trying to work her way back into the Navy would have been a good motivator or long term goal for her, and a duality/dispairty in the ranks might have lead to some interesting complications.

Having Honor stick with the Graysons for longer than a single book before returning to the Manticoran side of things also would have put off that whole "elevation to nobility" thing.

[Thanas]

I've also never been really happy with the way he decided to stick her with White Haven. I know thats another Hornblower analogy but it just never really clicked with me.

How is that a Hornblower analogy? (Lady Barbara? That is a bit of a stretch.)