(Super) Soldier

[Gunhead]

Unless we are talking twelve feet tall, it's not that much harder to describe. An eight foot tall two hundred and fifty kilogram monster is still fully articulated and can crouch and lie down. Two feet is a big deal for a vehicle because it can't lie prone or crouch, its always got an eight foot profile, people and people like things not so much. If we add in the superior senses they all seem to have they may actually be 'stealthier' than bog standard humans simply because they are more likely to know someone is coming and less likely to be stuck out in the open when it happens.

Doesn't change the fact the bigger=more stuff to hide. Crouching and lying down is all well and good but as soon as you go mobile you're a bigger target. What you said about vehicles is only partially true, if that 60cm more height is what contains the camouflage package that can hide the vehicle from both visual observation as well as from technical observation.

Yeah, it cost more to feed an elephant than the elephants were able to carry. Jester covered that.

You missed the point, bigger man = needs more energy to move. This is something scifi writers ignore. Besides, super strength is most useful when your super soldiers are humping their own loads. But after a while you run into another problem and that's volume. It's all fine and good if super soldier x can carry y amount of stuff, but in addition all stuff you dump on him takes space too. One way to work around this is to have super food / miniature super weapons for the super soldier but at the end of the day you're still looking at the balance of strength vs. carrying capacity vs. deployment time, which I think is not something I have seen ever when talking about super soldiers.

-Gunhead

[Darth Wong]

As far as the Jem'hadar go, they demonstratably have no trouble navigating their enviroment while invisible. So either it isn't light-bending, or they can get around just fine using a different sense (echolocation, perhaps?) They are also hidden from tricorders when 'shrouded.' Tricorders that we know can detect heat. So either they stop exhausting heat and bake when shrouded (unlikely) or they're cold blooded (somewhat less unlikely) which should logically make them less active then we see them being.

Actually, they are not demonstrably hidden from tricorders. I've seen them pick up Jem'Hadar on tricorders before they de-cloaked in DS9. And you don't actually know that they "demonstrably have no trouble navigating their environment while invisible". If they have no impediments, why do they always de-cloak before they try to do anything? If I could function just fine while invisible, you can damn well bet I'd stay invisible.

It's a tough knot to justify, but you know what? Considering Voyager and Enterprise, I;m happy that DS9 could just throw something like 'invisible troops' out there and not try and provide a nonsensical explanation. They never tell us how the Jem'hadar become invisible, the characters on the show (to my knowledge) never find out either, they just have to deal with the possibility of a squad of Jem'hadar popping up out of nowhere.

You're getting ahead of yourself. Before asking about explanations, you first have to be sure that the phenomenon in question is actually what you think is.

[bilateralrope]

I have to ask: How well do infrared sensors work on cold-blooded animals? Is it possible the Jem'Hadar are cold-blooded, or are able to lower their body temperature to that degree, to minimize the effectiveness of infrared sensors?

Cold-blooded animals have a severe performance disadvantage, particularly in anything less than scorching hot climates. In cold climates, they have a severe survival disadvantage.

What about cold-blooded animals with some artificial way of altering their body temperature ?
For example, their body armor is electrically heated.

[Alkaloid]

Doesn't change the fact the bigger=more stuff to hide. Crouching and lying down is all well and good but as soon as you go mobile you're a bigger target. What you said about vehicles is only partially true, if that 60cm more height is what contains the camouflage package that can hide the vehicle from both visual observation as well as from technical observation.

Yeah, it's a balancing act, volume versus capability. Bigger target, sure, but is that outweighed by the fact that he can accelerate faster, run for longer and change direction quicker? The fact that our average super soldier on this list has canine level sense of smell is huge, it means you know something is coming long before anyone without that sense will and be able to find proper concealment so you don't actually have to go mobile at all.

You missed the point, bigger man = needs more energy to move. This is something scifi writers ignore. Besides, super strength is most useful when your super soldiers are humping their own loads. But after a while you run into another problem and that's volume. It's all fine and good if super soldier x can carry y amount of stuff, but in addition all stuff you dump on him takes space too. One way to work around this is to have super food / miniature super weapons for the super soldier but at the end of the day you're still looking at the balance of strength vs. carrying capacity vs. deployment time, which I think is not something I have seen ever when talking about super soldiers.

-Gunhead

I didn't miss it at all. Bigger man needs more energy but has more carrying capacity. He is only at a disadvantage when his excess carrying capacity does not exceed his increased energy requirements. Yeah, you stack up diminishing returns fast, elephants being a good example, it's not possible for them to carry what they would need to consume to carry what they need to consume and so on for any appreciable length of time, but before you hit that point you have a clear advantage. And really, what extra gear are they going to be carrying? It always seems to be fancy gun, food and water, a few relatively small gizmos to do plot with, and ammunition. Unless you're talking powered armour, but then we have to start making armoured vehicle comparisons.

[Ahriman238]

I'm sure of nothing about the 'shrouding' ability save that the Jem'hadar can stand in plain sight and not be seen. And several times they don't use this ability despite it being an extreme advantage. And I was reasonably sure that tricorders couldn't detect Jem'hadar when they were shrouded. I suppose now I should hunt down a reference.

Is it possible, if the Jem'hadar can't seen while shrouded, but get around via echolocation or scent or some such, that it may not be precise enough for their every need? Everytime I remember them appearing from nowhere, they had a fist or a gun poised to attack but hadn't actually struck. What if they couldn't be sure of hitting anything important without de-shrouding and looking first?

[Gunhead]

Yeah, it's a balancing act, volume versus capability. Bigger target, sure, but is that outweighed by the fact that he can accelerate faster, run for longer and change direction quicker? The fact that our average super soldier on this list has canine level sense of smell is huge, it means you know something is coming long before anyone without that sense will and be able to find proper concealment so you don't actually have to go mobile at all.

Which are all only really useful if you are fighting someone that has no counter of it's own for them. But hey, this is something we can chalk up to the "lets handwave away" list. Super soldiers get super senses like there was no inherent cost or complication to them, because they wouldn't be supah! if they didn't. It's not really a volume versus capability either. It's really available resources vs. cost vs. specified role. Basically this is another writer hole, if you make super soldiers make them serve some other purpose than just being "cool".

I didn't miss it at all. Bigger man needs more energy but has more carrying capacity. He is only at a disadvantage when his excess carrying capacity does not exceed his increased energy requirements. Yeah, you stack up diminishing returns fast, elephants being a good example, it's not possible for them to carry what they would need to consume to carry what they need to consume and so on for any appreciable length of time, but before you hit that point you have a clear advantage. And really, what extra gear are they going to be carrying? It always seems to be fancy gun, food and water, a few relatively small gizmos to do plot with, and ammunition. Unless you're talking powered armour, but then we have to start making armoured vehicle comparisons.

This is fully dependent on the tech level so I won't go into too specifics. It all depends on the mission but if you really want to take advantage of any type of extended endurance, food and water are a major concern by themselves. Then there are various tents, surveillance equipment, medical needs, communication equipment, camouflage equipment for all of these. If I take the modern stuff and cut the weight down by half, it's still a huge pile of stuff to lug around, even if I made it half the size at the same time. Which leads to the question, if you can make stuff small and light enough to be carried by joe average, why spend the time and effort to make super soldiers?

Basically your whole second argument is based on the assumption that bigger man can somehow carry more of himself and any extra energy needed to keep himself and the equipment mobile, which is not a given fact. If it was all special forces operators would be 130kg hulks, they're not. In the same vein having a 130kg guy do anything, specially faster, stronger etc. by definition expends more energy than a smaller guy doing the same and that energy has to come from somewhere.

-Gunhead

[Alkaloid]

Which are all only really useful if you are fighting someone that has no counter of it's own for them. But hey, this is something we can chalk up to the "lets handwave away" list. Super soldiers get super senses like there was no inherent cost or complication to them, because they wouldn't be supah! if they didn't. It's not really a volume versus capability either. It's really available resources vs. cost vs. specified role. Basically this is another writer hole, if you make super soldiers make them serve some other purpose than just being "cool".

I'm just going from the list we've been given, where what I've listed isn't so much standard as not uncommon. I have no idea how a canine level sense of smell would operate in a sight focused biped, but apparently they made it work, so I'll go with it.

This is fully dependent on the tech level so I won't go into too specifics. It all depends on the mission but if you really want to take advantage of any type of extended endurance, food and water are a major concern by themselves. Then there are various tents, surveillance equipment, medical needs, communication equipment, camouflage equipment for all of these. If I take the modern stuff and cut the weight down by half, it's still a huge pile of stuff to lug around, even if I made it half the size at the same time. Which leads to the question, if you can make stuff small and light enough to be carried by joe average, why spend the time and effort to make super soldiers?

Thats always the question.

Basically your whole second argument is based on the assumption that bigger man can somehow carry more of himself and any extra energy needed to keep himself and the equipment mobile, which is not a given fact. If it was all special forces operators would be 130kg hulks, they're not. In the same vein having a 130kg guy do anything, specially faster, stronger etc. by definition expends more energy than a smaller guy doing the same and that energy has to come from somewhere.

I'm aware of that. I'm simply saying that while you will eventually hit the point where it's costing you more than you gain, until you hit that point there is an advantage to it. Special forces guys aren't 130kg hulks, true, but they are 5ft 50kg blokes either, and for good reasons.

[Darth Wong]

I'm aware of that. I'm simply saying that while you will eventually hit the point where it's costing you more than you gain, until you hit that point there is an advantage to it. Special forces guys aren't 130kg hulks, true, but they are 5ft 50kg blokes either, and for good reasons.

Those "good reasons" are the fact that the weapons and equipment are all designed for an average-sized person. In fact, there is no magic optimization point for size vs carrying capacity, because there is a direct linear relationship: your proportional carrying capacity goes down as your size increases, in a basically straight line from ants all the way up to elephants.

As creatures scale up, their muscular and bone load-bearing area goes up by a factor of 2, but their weight goes up by a factor of 3. This is a simple geometrical relationship: it's why ants can carry several times their weight, while monstrous multi-ton creatures could not even carry their own weight. Bigger is less efficient, period.

[Alkaloid]

Efficiency doesn't necessarily equate to performance though. To carry on the elephant example, when the British were conquering India, elephants were a vital part of their logistics chain even though they couldn't carry enough food to feed themselves let alone a useful load as well. They had to have them because in the wet season they couldn't use carts because they would bog down, and you need a team of oxen to pull the weight of a siege gun, which can't be done without a carriage. The solution was to dismount the gun and strap it to an elephant, because it take more weight than the oxen.

Same applies to people, if a combat pack is 50kg, then a 50kg man can't be expected to carry that load for as long as an 80kg man even if you factor in the extra 10kg of food he might need.

[Darth Wong]

Right, but in both cases, we're talking about local conditions or equipment design forcing a certain size. Unless there is some particular reason forcing a certain size, smaller is better.

[Stofsk]

As far as the Jem'hadar go, they demonstratably have no trouble navigating their enviroment while invisible. So either it isn't light-bending, or they can get around just fine using a different sense (echolocation, perhaps?) They are also hidden from tricorders when 'shrouded.' Tricorders that we know can detect heat. So either they stop exhausting heat and bake when shrouded (unlikely) or they're cold blooded (somewhat less unlikely) which should logically make them less active then we see them being.

Actually, they are not demonstrably hidden from tricorders. I've seen them pick up Jem'Hadar on tricorders before they de-cloaked in DS9. And you don't actually know that they "demonstrably have no trouble navigating their environment while invisible". If they have no impediments, why do they always de-cloak before they try to do anything? If I could function just fine while invisible, you can damn well bet I'd stay invisible.

Which episode/s did they pick up Jem'hadar on tricorders before they decloaked? I can't remember any.

In fact, I consistently remember them always getting the drop on people when they decloaked. The only time I recall someone detecting Jem'hadar on a tricorder was a security chick in 'Rocks and Shoals', and there the Jem'hadar specifically could no longer shroud themselves due to their withdrawal symptoms. In 'To the Death' when they're training in the Defiant's engine core, Dax, O'Brien and Worf couldn't complete their scenario because they missed a third Jem'hadar. It's telling that they didn't even try to pull out tricorders to see if they can scan for it (none of them even had tricorders equipped!), and Odo even said 'use your eyes, look for a slight shimmer' as the only real option for detection.

As for the infra-red point you made earlier, if the Jem'hadar are cold-blooded then that might negate it. But you pointed out that cold-bloodedness has performance tradeoffs. So here's a possibility: if they are capable of regulating their body temperature when shrouded, then that could explain why they don't appear on sensors but do appear whenever they weren't cloaked. This could easily explain why they decloak to attack - shrouding might make them slower or less agile or whatever. When they're standing still they appear perfectly concealed, and it's only when they start to move that the 'shimmer' effect appears as they decloak. Given they're pretty heavily genetically engineered, I can see the Dominion picking and choosing what traits to give them.

[Alkaloid]

Right, but in both cases, we're talking about local conditions or equipment design forcing a certain size. Unless there is some particular reason forcing a certain size, smaller is better.

I don't see how smaller is inherently better. If you ever have to carry a load, then there is going to be something forcing a certain size, unless the task is literally 'fill this hole from that pile of dirt, no time limit.' There is a point you could calculate for each different load that would give the optimum efficiency/performance ratio all else being equal, but that is almost never going to be the case. If you don't know exactly what load you are going to be carrying and for how long, your best bet is to make a rough estimate and then get someone larger than you think you will need because you are better off with someone that can carry the load at a higher energy cost than someone who cant carry it at all but who would have been more efficient.

[Connor MacLeod]

You can offset the carrying load to certain extents by advances in technology (making it ligther or less bulky. If we're going to handwave super-soldiers I see no reason why we can't handwave certain aspects about technology, like batteries or power sources, which can be pretty bulky in 'realistic' terms.)

And yeah there are advantages to smaller size. Leaving less of a trail and being able to hide better are NOT trivial issues. A smaller body can fit into more places than a large, bulky one. I imagine climbing might be easier as well.

Another thing is that when I think of 'Super-soldiers' and 'efficient' I'd think of specialization. you would have different troops for different things. you wouldn't rely on a large, bulky 'do all' type s uper soldier.

Edit: One thing we should note as far as your typical 'sci fi' supersoliders like Space Marines from 40K or Spartans form Halo is that they always seem to be used for propoganda and psychological purposes. Either terror or intimidation (against the enemy) or for inspiration/morale boosting (on the same side.) Spartans were played up as being super heroes in the Halo games, as well as some sort of super enemy against the convenant (I recall them being called 'Demons' by the Elites.) even though they were part of some covert project to make super assassins or something to use against UNSC's own rebels.

And Space Marines were always meant for psychological warfare - that's why they have giant silly chainsaw swords and rocket propelled guns, nevermind looking fucking huge. Think about all the propoganda backing them in the fluff. Or the drop pod stuff. They're supposed to strike fast and brutal and demoralize or break teh enemy. They're also meant to terrify the Imperium's own population into compliance (Be good or the Space Marines will come and kill you.) About the only other avenue Astartes were meant to be good at was zero gee and boarding operations (Esp space hulks) and that's another situation where being stealthy is not really vital. Hell, aside from some specialists (like Raven Guard) Marines are meant to be seen and be highly visible - you wouldn't design them for being sneaky. (Big, bulky, noisy and thermally radiating power armour makes this even more of a problem - something that gets pointed out in more than one occasion in the fluff, point of fact.)

[Ryan Thunder]

About the only other avenue Astartes were meant to be good at was zero gee and boarding operations (Esp space hulks) and that's another situation where being stealthy is not really vital.

Yeah, but their enormous stature is a liability in that scenario. Sure, the Imperium/Chaos are all nice and accommodating by having cavernous internal spaces with enormous doors, but I'm hard pressed to think of a reason why the Eldar or the Tau should do likewise. The latter especially since they aren't known for height.

I mean, they're all so huge you could probably stop them from doing anything useful by having maximum 2 m ceilings and hallways a metre wide.

Best case, they wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Worst case, they look hilarious as they stumble, hunched over, through the ship, struggle to fit themselves through doors, etc.

[Simon_Jester]

Hallways small enough a Space Marine can't walk through are also going to be physically cramped for human-sized users (would you be comfortable walking around in a building with only six inches of clearance between your head and the ceiling?), awkward when people need to pass each other or carry loads around, and impossible to move heavy equipment through.

[Ryan Thunder]

Hallways small enough a Space Marine can't walk through are also going to be physically cramped for human-sized users (would you be comfortable walking around in a building with only six inches of clearance between your head and the ceiling?), awkward when people need to pass each other or carry loads around, and impossible to move heavy equipment through.

No, not really.

There are only so many parts of the ship that are going to need access for heavy equipment, anyway.

[Terralthra]

On the Jem'Hadar: For one, we see a child Jem'Hadar, and it's more or less humanoid in appearance, including being mammalian-like (The Abandoned). It would be extremely weird for Dr. Bashir not to comment on a mammalian-appearing infant being cold-blooded, and switching from warm-blooded at birth to cold-blooded during adulthood seems equally unlikely.

Secondly, the script for The Jem'Hadar specifically stated that their shrouding was of the same sort used by Tosk in The Hunted. If that refers strictly to visual appearance, then that's not helpful, but if it refers to the mechanism engineered into the Jem'Hadar by the Founders, then that means it's not foolproof to sensors. When the Hunters came to DS9 for Tosk, they had a beam sensor in their helmet of some sort which revealed Tosk, despite being shrouded.

There is a vague resemblance between the two, but that's hardly definitive:

[Simon_Jester]

Hallways small enough a Space Marine can't walk through are also going to be physically cramped for human-sized users (would you be comfortable walking around in a building with only six inches of clearance between your head and the ceiling?), awkward when people need to pass each other or carry loads around, and impossible to move heavy equipment through.

No, not really.

The ISS is itself very small and compact, and there isn't much "heavy" machinery in it- it was all designed so that the crew could perform maintenance using lightweight parts that come up in small space capsules.

Typical SF warships are much larger, physically more robust and with more bulky internal equipment that needs to be taken in and out.

There are only so many parts of the ship that are going to need access for heavy equipment, anyway.

Conveniently for the enemy, those are the ones that it's really fucking inconvenient to have ludicrously well armed assholes with plasma cannons blowing things up in...

I mean, sure, you can have a narrow access corridor leading to the toilets, so the enemy can't send a giant supersoldier in there to surprise you when you're taking a dump, but the invader isn't going to care. He's going to care about the big corridor to main engineering, which does have to accomodate large, bulky objects.

[Sidewinder]

I have to ask: How well do infrared sensors work on cold-blooded animals? Is it possible the Jem'Hadar are cold-blooded, or are able to lower their body temperature to that degree, to minimize the effectiveness of infrared sensors?

Cold-blooded animals have a severe performance disadvantage, particularly in anything less than scorching hot climates. In cold climates, they have a severe survival disadvantage.

What about cold-blooded animals with some artificial way of altering their body temperature ?
For example, their body armor is electrically heated.

That would defeat the purpose, i.e., to AVOID DETECTION BY INFRARED SENSORS. Of course, one can ask the opposite, e.g., their body armor is cryogenically cooled- but the heat generated must go SOMEWHERE, usually to a heat sink, which will be highly visible in infrared.

[bilateralrope]

That would defeat the purpose, i.e., to AVOID DETECTION BY INFRARED SENSORS. Of course, one can ask the opposite, e.g., their body armor is cryogenically cooled- but the heat generated must go SOMEWHERE, usually to a heat sink, which will be highly visible in infrared.

What I was thinking is that when they are trying to sneak around, they let their body temperature drop to avoid infrared sensors better than warm blooded creatures. When they need high performance, they crank up the temperature.

Not leaving the heat on while they sneak around.

[Alkaloid]

You can offset the carrying load to certain extents by advances in technology (making it ligther or less bulky. If we're going to handwave super-soldiers I see no reason why we can't handwave certain aspects about technology, like batteries or power sources, which can be pretty bulky in 'realistic' terms.)

And yeah there are advantages to smaller size. Leaving less of a trail and being able to hide better are NOT trivial issues. A smaller body can fit into more places than a large, bulky one. I imagine climbing might be easier as well.

The problem with that is that it only works if you can foresee exactly what you need your supersoldiers to do over the course of the programs existence. If you just build everything into a package just large enough to do everything you want they are completely boned the first time they come up against something you didn't foresee. It's the same as every other sort of engineering, you need to build redundancy into the design otherwise it is going to bite you in the arse.
Sure, size is an issue, but as long as it doesn't get out of hand it is manageable. 12 foot monsters aren't going to work, but up to about eight feet is workable. If you go out the front of your house right now I bet withing a few seconds you could see a half dozen places an eight foot tall human could hide. Sure, you will see some where a five foot person could fit where an eight foot one couldn't, but that doesn't matter as long as there is cover they can get to.

Another thing is that when I think of 'Super-soldiers' and 'efficient' I'd think of specialization. you would have different troops for different things. you wouldn't rely on a large, bulky 'do all' type s uper soldier.

The problem with that is you essentially throw all your efficiency arguments out the window when you start up half a dozen programs to make different super soldiers. The requirements for super combat engineer, super scout and super shock troop are not that fundamentally different that it is worth it, you are better off just building one general purpose model and just have more super soldiers in total. Plus your recon troop then has the capability to build a bridge or mine a dam if they need to even if they aren't specifically trained for it.

And Space Marines were always meant for psychological warfare - that's why they have giant silly chainsaw swords and rocket propelled guns, nevermind looking fucking huge. Think about all the propoganda backing them in the fluff. Or the drop pod stuff. They're supposed to strike fast and brutal and demoralize or break teh enemy. They're also meant to terrify the Imperium's own population into compliance (Be good or the Space Marines will come and kill you.) About the only other avenue Astartes were meant to be good at was zero gee and boarding operations (Esp space hulks) and that's another situation where being stealthy is not really vital. Hell, aside from some specialists (like Raven Guard) Marines are meant to be seen and be highly visible - you wouldn't design them for being sneaky. (Big, bulky, noisy and thermally radiating power armour makes this even more of a problem - something that gets pointed out in more than one occasion in the fluff, point of fact.)

Yeah, I'm a bit leery of comparing powered armour and super soldiers just because while often related they aren't the same thing. The difference between an astartes with and without is pretty significant. One without is a big, strong fast man with excellent training that can smell you coming and learn what you know by eating your brain and is a very dangerous soldier, while one with it is a light tank that can enter buildings and is an entirely different type of threat.

[Gunhead]

The problem with that is that it only works if you can foresee exactly what you need your supersoldiers to do over the course of the programs existence. If you just build everything into a package just large enough to do everything you want they are completely boned the first time they come up against something you didn't foresee. It's the same as every other sort of engineering, you need to build redundancy into the design otherwise it is going to bite you in the arse.
Sure, size is an issue, but as long as it doesn't get out of hand it is manageable. 12 foot monsters aren't going to work, but up to about eight feet is workable. If you go out the front of your house right now I bet withing a few seconds you could see a half dozen places an eight foot tall human could hide. Sure, you will see some where a five foot person could fit where an eight foot one couldn't, but that doesn't matter as long as there is cover they can get to.

The problem with that is you essentially throw all your efficiency arguments out the window when you start up half a dozen programs to make different super soldiers. The requirements for super combat engineer, super scout and super shock troop are not that fundamentally different that it is worth it, you are better off just building one general purpose model and just have more super soldiers in total. Plus your recon troop then has the capability to build a bridge or mine a dam if they need to even if they aren't specifically trained for it.

This depends totally on the nature of warfare in a specific setting. I can easily come up with a scenario where smaller size is inherently more desirable or vice versa. Generally speaking, the more hitech the setting is, the more size becomes a hindrance. Efficiency can be interpreted in different ways. In direct combat roles the difference between a scout and an assault troop can be pretty small, but if you're building an all super soldier army where each troop type is specialized in a specific role, they perform more efficiently in their given role. Overall cost might be more, but cost is efficiency if that is what your program set out to do in the first place.

Yeah, I'm a bit leery of comparing powered armour and super soldiers just because while often related they aren't the same thing. The difference between an astartes with and without is pretty significant. One without is a big, strong fast man with excellent training that can smell you coming and learn what you know by eating your brain and is a very dangerous soldier, while one with it is a light tank that can enter buildings and is an entirely different type of threat.

If you ask me, it's pretty redundant to have an ubermench inside a powered armor in the first place. If I can reduce the size of the operator I can either make the unit smaller or stick more functions into the same space. People harp about super senses all the time, but if you're tactically outplayed super reflexes are not going to save you. If I was going to stick a guy in a suit of powered armor I'd super him so he has a superior awareness of the battlefield and have the suit take up all the sensory input leaving the guy operating free to make good decisions.

-Gunhead

[Simon_Jester]

Some supersoldier ideas would be about as good without power armor as with it- say, the ability to go without food or sleep for an incredibly long time. But, yes, if you design your supermen for their armor, it doesn't make a lot of sense to make them big and bulky, compared to just building big bulky armor for a relatively normal man.

Now, even then there's an argument for trying to make the supertroops unusually physically fit by baseline human standards- because, really, why not? If you can figure out how to give the the weird features that make Lance Armstrong such a great endurance athlete, or make them able to tote 50 kg of gear more comfortably than an ordinary man, why not? It makes them more versatile for missions that they can't use the power armor for (like sneaky special forces ops).

But there, you'd be looking to make an army of slightly tweaked people who are more comparable to high-end athletes, not an army of giant gorilla-strong men. Trying to make them huge and massively stronger than a normal man will, yes, hit serious diminishing returns.

[hunter5]

What about the Dark Troopers from Star Wars? Or would they be considered high end battle droids rather than true super soliders?

[Gunhead]

What about the Dark Troopers from Star Wars? Or would they be considered high end battle droids rather than true super soliders?

In the end what's the difference? In the context of their setting they actually make sense. As the Cyberpunk axiom goes "Metal is better than flesh".

-Gunhead