Cowl tries to argue B5 weaponry

[Themightytom]

I'm honestly bemused by how anyone can think the EA can take the Centauri, even at the end of the series, when Earth has actually advanced relative to the other species via the ISA... well... here's the bits of Emperor Vintari's Future War that Galen shows.


I mean seriously.

That said, I don't think Galen would actually say it was 'destruction on a level never seen before' unless Earth got the shit kicked out of it, possibly even exterminated (the Minbari certainly seemed to think they could exterminate a species from space) completely.

At the end of the series Earth hadn't just had the crap kicked out of it by the League, they had already begun rebuilding from the civil war, were putting out their new Warlock class ships. While the Centauri were going into a period of isolation, Earth was getting new tech from the mimbari via the Interstellar alliance as they talked about at the end of the fourth season.

That said, I don't think Earth could go toe to toe with the Centauri at the beginning or middle of the series, they were considered among the strongest during "In the beginning" apart from the Mimbari. I think that EA could have helped the Narn take the Centauri and probably would have, following the attack on Babylon 5 if the Shadows hadn't been involved. Sheridan and most of the other members of the B5 security council seemed sympathetic to the Narn cause, but no one wanted to be the first to help.


Galen was oozing theatrics here, of COURSE he would say that, he called New York the city that never weeps, and spent a good thirty seconds talking about dust. However unless he was bullshitting the "Thousand war machines number, Earth was still in trouble. Those giant beams of light weren't doing much visible damage but they could have been tracers, the devastated city of Ash is a pretty solid argument. It's still only one city though.

In the second video a warlock spears through a Centauri ship while two others pepper it from the sides, in fact both warlocks were shown getting double teamed and still fighting, though the first one looked like it was coming apart. From a tech standpoint it doesn't look very one sided, it really sounds like he was describing a pearl harboresque attack.

[Connor MacLeod]

Warlocks are supposed to be 'cutting edge' EA tech though. They got advantages from their playing around with shadowtech (if I remember the fluff story spinoffs JMS n shit wrote) and from the EA project. Which included partial control of artificial gravity. Them being able to hold their own is probably not surprising, since in the latter part of the series (due to Sheridan) humanity got a lot of lucky breaks kicking their tech levels up a few notches through the intervnetion of the Minbari and such (insert obligatory humanity fuck yeah here.)

Again I'd also note that since 'slugging matches til one sides' invisible armour gives out' is not how B5 does things, that comparisons of 'powerlevels' are inherently deceptive. Thats why some races use small ships more than others (who use big ships.) Big ships are not inherently superior.

I kind of wonder if EA's supposed 'power' has something to do with the perceptions we get from them through the series. Between the Omegas, Hyperions, etc. and the Exploror ships (The ones that make jump gates) I wonder if we get this idea that humanity is the new, big powerful kid on the block (even though that is the opposite lesson we get from 'In the Beginning')

It probably doesnt help that Centauri ships, by comparison, tend to look fragile and tiny (evne minbari ships aren't quite that delicate looking.) But I suspect that based on acutal performance, looks are deceptive.

Edit: I also wonder if some of this might not also be based on perceptions based on 'in the beginning' - the Centauri didn't want to get into a fight with teh Minbari, but the EA gets into one iwth the Minbari and manages to bloody their noses (despite almost getting annihilated in the end.)

[andrewgpaul]

I'm honestly bemused by how anyone can think the EA can take the Centauri, even at the end of the series, when Earth has actually advanced relative to the other species via the ISA... well... here's the bits of Emperor Vintari's Future War that Galen shows.

(clipped out the Youtube clips)

I mean seriously.

That said, I don't think Galen would actually say it was 'destruction on a level never seen before' unless Earth got the shit kicked out of it, possibly even exterminated (the Minbari certainly seemed to think they could exterminate a species from space) completely.

What's the context of that? Did it really happen or is it Galen's idea of a "might have been"? Those beams in the first shot look more impressive than anything I remember coming out of a Centauri warship in the TV show, but that could just be because we don't usually see them firing on the ground.

The second clip doesn't do the EA any favours either - that's at least two Warlock-class destroyers - IIRC the state of EA's art - getting wiped out embarrassingly by light Centauri ships. The did a little better than they did against the Minbari 20 years ago, but not much.

[Stark]

How does 'period of isolation' affect strength anyway? If he Centauri have more space, they benefit from periods of peace more than others. The Centauri 'weakness' thematic in the series is not necessarily a military or economic one; it's mostly shown as a moral or cultural one where they have lost their drive for dominance. That doesn't make their military suck, and we see that when they use it (ie when they regain the will) they demonstrate their strength.

The level of wishful thinking and seeing what you want to see by calling those clips a 'pearl harbouresque' attack is great. Why is it a sneak attack? Because the EA is losing, and we know somehow that the larger and more advanced Centauri suck. Right?

[Themightytom]

The Centauri could have fired with an aim towards disabling B5's defenses without destroying it. The White Stars in Season 4 demonstrate it is quite possible to do this (albeit not without some risk, since starships are not inert objects.) If they were going for disabling fire they would probably be at a disadvantage when Sheridan decides to go all out to destroy them. The Centauri and EA are both playing chicken in this sense, although its more of Sheridan vs Centauri.... EA has to go along with them so as not to appear weak to the Intergalactic Community. But at the same time they don't want to fight or destroy either side because that would mean war. Yet an error happens, and someone does get destroyed. It's kind of tragic in that light.

I totally agree with you Connor, I wasn't sure if Stark had been suggesting that the Centauri were intentionally firing a warning shot that missed, or if they were intentionally firing to cause minor damage. I favor the likelihood that they misread Sheridan's response, and the rapidity with which he could kill them. If he had hesitated, or if B5's weapons had been less effective, the Narn ship would have been blown away, mission accomplished for the Centauri, and suddenly Sheridans got no reason to risk his station.

Anyhow, since B5 really doesn't have magic shields or the super-thick armour and slugging matches of most sci fi, it really doesn't have to 'fight' the same ways (EG the person with the biggest guns or biggest ships or toughest does not always win in B5.) The Shadows best epitomise this, I think. Their ships are certainly not the biggest, they are not dramatically tougher than the YR, and they don't carry as many guns (and probably don't have vastly more firepower either.) But the manner in which they fight makes them essentially unbeatable without having the ability to go toe to toe.

The diving in and out of hyperspace particularly, without the long drawn out entrance and exist, they don't even have jump points that can be damaged or exploded. They also move faster than most ships other than the white stars.

It's true of the centauri as well. We've seen the Narns catch them by surprise and destroy Centauri ships, and yet they do not do so effortlessly (The Narn ship takes crippling damage in the process.) Whereas in straight up fights the Centauri generally mop the floor with the Narns (Vorchan vs G'Quan) as well as the League.

Can you cite episodes? Or throw up clips as Necronlord did? I don't remember what you're remembering, all I remember was the battle of Gorash, Quadrant 37 and the time G'Kar sent a ship to Zahadum.

That the Narn and Centauri (or Centauir and EA) may be considered equal is not neccesarily because one side or the other has more powerful ships, or better technology. It may have as much to do with the size fo fleets, the kinds of weapons and ships they use, and the way they fight as much as raw firepower or toughness. Hell, the whole Vorlon/Shadow vs Army of Light conflict should prove that, nevermind what comes before or after.

That's why I assert that brinksmanship is significant. JMS went out of his way to make sure that no race was beyond politics, or beyond strategy. The white star killed a shadow with strategy, via the jump gate maneuver, they killed both a vorlon and a Shadow cruiser with mines. technology isn't what wins wars, as you said, the final battle between the Vorlon/Shadow vs Army of light was won by strategy and pretty much politics.

The centauri were a decentralized, decadent ineffectual regime, while the Narns were aggressive and focused. I don't think they would have either responded effectively, nor prosecuted a war competently without the Shadows to help them overcome their own flaws. I mean that ONE damn G'Quan cruiser just kept showing up in battle after battle. if the Shadows hadn't been carving them up a fleet of them would have been ridiculous.

And to be clear, I don't count win here as bombing the other's homeworld. I don't think the Narns were really ever prepared to go that far, I think the Centauri Empire would have fallen apart under the pressure of war. Let's not forget the fricking king of the daffodils the shadows were propping up. That's not really solid leadership under war time conditions. he would have been offed, and a fight for the crown could easily have ensued with generals um... redirecting forces from their enemies so that the Narn rolled over them, and trying to cite hollow victories to gain favor in the court etc.

[Thanas]

A fleet of G'Quan cruisers would have been hilarious....except we see the Centauri casually destroying them one-on-one? Also, your theory of a succession war has no support seeing as how the succession seems to be decided in secret by a few people....oh, and from what events would the centauri have crumbled in a war? They won.

[Themightytom]

How does 'period of isolation' affect strength anyway? If he Centauri have more space, they benefit from periods of peace more than others. The Centauri 'weakness' thematic in the series is not necessarily a military or economic one; it's mostly shown as a moral or cultural one where they have lost their drive for dominance. That doesn't make their military suck, and we see that when they use it (ie when they regain the will) they demonstrate their strength.

Oh I don't know Stark, how's North Korea doing? Remember that big break through they had ever? That advanced technology they came up with? No one said the Centauri military sucks, just that their military isn't invincible. It's entirely possible that under Molari's leadership and after getting bombed to crap, his people united in an orgy of comradic progressivism but if they have no idea what the "cutting edge" is they have to reinvent the wheel while everyone else is sharing technical manuals and outsourcing production.

The level of wishful thinking and seeing what you want to see by calling those clips a 'pearl harbouresque' attack is great. Why is it a sneak attack? Because the EA is losing, and we know somehow that the larger and more advanced Centauri suck. Right?

[/quote]

Der, because a "thousand" ships popped into Earth orbit and were firing on New York a minute later? Not even the Mimbari pulled that off because Earth was ready for it. The Drakh didn't pull that off because Earth was... kind of ready for it. Not even Sheridan who knew what he was doing got past the GODs in a timely manner, when they were Pointed At Earth. Have you WATCHED the show?

A fleet of G'Quan cruisers would have been hilarious....except we see the Centauri casually destroying them one-on-one? Also, your theory of a succession war has no support seeing as how the succession seems to be decided in secret by a few people....oh, and from what events would the centauri have crumbled in a war? They won.

They won in a war with the Shadows help Thanas? the whole premise here is a war Without The Shadows help?

Where is the casual destruction I asked Connor for it but I don't remember the Centauri going one on one except for the already damaged ship which really wasn't fair because B5 was helping.

My succession has plenty of support Thanas, if it's decided in secret by a few people obviously it can be Redecided by a few other people. Londo and Vir weren't in on Cartagia's ascendance but they definitely decided it wasn't working out, and Londo was about to be given complete control. We're not talking a long campaign season here, the throne changed hands from Emperor to Emperor to Regent to Regent to Emperor within like three years.

[Themightytom]

I am not a fan of the quote system. I am editing my other two posts for clarity

[Thanas]

Oh I don't know Stark, how's North Korea doing?

What makes you think it is a valid analogy?

Remember that big break through they had ever? That advanced technology they came up with? No one said the Centauri military sucks, just that their military isn't invincible. It's entirely possible that under Molari's leadership and after getting bombed to crap, his people united in an orgy of comradic progressivism but if they have no idea what the "cutting edge" is they have to reinvent the wheel while everyone else is sharing technical manuals and outsourcing production.

Irrelevant seeing as we know that the Centauri will not decline in power, as evidenced by the lost tales clip.

Der, because a "thousand" ships popped into Earth orbit and were firing on New York a minute later? Not even the Mimbari pulled that off because Earth was ready for it. The Drakh didn't pull that off because Earth was... kind of ready for it. Not even Sheridan who knew what he was doing got past the GODs in a timely manner, when they were Pointed At Earth. Have you WATCHED the show?

There is nothing to suggest that this is not the culmination of the war. In fact, considering we do not see the defence grid firing suggests that it has been taken out already.

You are only thinking it is a sneak attack because you wish it to be.

They won in a war with the Shadows help Thanas? the whole premise here is a war Without The Shadows help?

What material contributions did the shadows provide to the war effort?

Where is the casual destruction I asked Connor for it but I don't remember the Centauri going one on one except for the already damaged ship which really wasn't fair because B5 was helping.

In the beginning.

My succession has plenty of support Thanas, if it's decided in secret by a few people obviously it can be Redecided by a few other people. Londo and Vir weren't in on Cartagia's ascendance but they definitely decided it wasn't working out, and Londo was about to be given complete control. We're not talking a long campaign season here, the throne changed hands from Emperor to Emperor to Regent to Regent to Emperor within like three years.

And none of that succession ever involved a rebellion from the armed forces.

[Stark]

Did he just use North Korea as an example of a parity-or-better organization not currently expanding? Maybe he's never looked at a map. Why does he apparently think he options are 'Centauri suxx lol' and 'Centauri invinciblol', when the show depicts them as powerful but stagnant and corrupt?

How about this lol - with their mid-size ships, the 'stagnant' 'declining' 'weak' Centauri arguably invented the concept refined by the White Star, only much earlier and by themselves. Clearly, a pack of weak minded fools sitting on past glories!

[Themightytom]

Oh I don't know Stark, how's North Korea doing?

What makes you think it is a valid analogy?

[/quote]

It is a classic example of an insular state, would you rather I use China before they started stealing everyone's military secrets? Or, as history is your turf, do you have a better one in mind?

Remember that big break through they had ever? That advanced technology they came up with? No one said the Centauri military sucks, just that their military isn't invincible. It's entirely possible that under Molari's leadership and after getting bombed to crap, his people united in an orgy of comradic progressivism but if they have no idea what the "cutting edge" is they have to reinvent the wheel while everyone else is sharing technical manuals and outsourcing production.

Irrelevant seeing as we know that the Centauri will not decline in power, as evidenced by the lost tales clip. [/quote]

Um, I beg to differ, note that my argument centered on innovation? The Centauri ships attacking Earth look like Vorchans, the same ships they were using the ISA beat them the first time. If north Korea builds a horde of outdated aircraft, they can startle the crap out of South Korea but they are going to be outperformed. We have no idea how powerful the Centauri are, we just know they caused a lot of damage to Earth.

There is nothing to suggest that this is not the culmination of the war. In fact, considering we do not see the defence grid firing suggests that it has been taken out already.

The defense grid is down, and no one is evacuating or particularly rushed? Did you not see the hordes of civilian ships evacuating in In The Beginning?

You are only thinking it is a sneak attack because you wish it to be.

They won in a war with the Shadows help Thanas? the whole premise here is a war Without The Shadows help?

What material contributions did the shadows provide to the war effort?

In the beginning.

That wasn't head to head that was another sneak attack, which literally any race can do. The narns didn't even have time to say who was attacking them.

My succession has plenty of support Thanas, if it's decided in secret by a few people obviously it can be Redecided by a few other people. Londo and Vir weren't in on Cartagia's ascendance but they definitely decided it wasn't working out, and Londo was about to be given complete control. We're not talking a long campaign season here, the throne changed hands from Emperor to Emperor to Regent to Regent to Emperor within like three years.

And none of that succession ever involved a rebellion from the armed forces.[/quote]

So? Is the Earth Alliance prone to civil wars because we saw that happen? The Centauri duel each other, poison each other and sabotage each other behind closed doors. We're arguing a hypothetical scenario, it would have to be slightly different than what we actually saw happen in the series, but an extrapolation of what we saw.

Did he just use North Korea as an example of a parity-or-better organization not currently expanding? Maybe he's never looked at a map.

Did he just refer to me as though I wasn't in the thread and ask for confirmation of something he can obviously scroll up and reread in order to frame my argument as ridiculous without ever actually making a substantive reply?

Why does he apparently think he options are 'Centauri suxx lol' and 'Centauri invinciblol', when the show depicts them as powerful but stagnant and corrupt?

How about this lol - with their mid-size ships, the 'stagnant' 'declining' 'weak' Centauri arguably invented the concept refined by the White Star, only much earlier and by themselves. Clearly, a pack of weak minded fools sitting on past glories!

[/quote]

Stark what is wrong with your brain, I have been arguing that the Centauri are powerful but stagnant and correct the entire time.You're the moron arguing Centauri are invisible and Narn suxx.

The concept of a mid sized ship is earth shaking? Tell that to the Drazzi idiot. The whitestars were built to allow a smaller force the ability to project it's power over a greater area because the rangers were too small to just build Sharlins to fight the Shadows. What's Centauri's excuse, they have manpower to spare if their empire is as big as you seem to think. It's just as likely the Centauri couldn't afford enough larger ships to maintain their territory and needed a larger number of smaller alternatives.

[Themightytom]

What material contributions did the shadows provide to the war effort?

They killed Quadrant 37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... -uhi_qIgSU

And not only killed the six G'Quan heavy cruisers and their fighters attacking Gorash, hurting the Narn, but saved the supply depot, saving the Centauri.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... H8WKvyOT38

And by the way Connor, literally everything I pointed out about shadow advantage is here.

[Thanas]

It is a classic example of an insular state, would you rather I use China before they started stealing everyone's military secrets? Or, as history is your turf, do you have a better one in mind?

The centauri are an insular race? You know, the same race which discovered earth and was their favored trading partner? The same race which developed a great fad for earth stuff? The same race which is aptly engaged in commerce in Babylon 5?

Man, your definition of insular is pretty bad.

Um, I beg to differ, note that my argument centered on innovation? The Centauri ships attacking Earth look like Vorchans, the same ships they were using the ISA beat them the first time. If north Korea builds a horde of outdated aircraft, they can startle the crap out of South Korea but they are going to be outperformed. We have no idea how powerful the Centauri are, we just know they caused a lot of damage to Earth.

a) Are they the same ships? They looked pretty larger and dissimilar with regards to the structure.
b) Even if they are the same ships, guess what - they ripped through the newer alliance ships in the video. That is a warlock getting its butt kicked by a single vorchan at the end of the clip.
c) All evidence suggests the Vorchan is a new development at the start of the show. 50 years is nothing in spacetime seeing as Earth still employs starfuries (which coincidentally also got their asses kicked)

The defense grid is down, and no one is evacuating or particularly rushed? Did you not see the hordes of civilian ships evacuating in In The Beginning?

How many ships do you see evacuating from the narn homeworld?

They won in a war with the Shadows help Thanas? the whole premise here is a war Without The Shadows help?

What material contributions did the shadows provide to the war effort?

No, this is actually a legitimate question. What did the shados contribute to the war effort?

That wasn't head to head that was another sneak attack, which literally any race can do. The narns didn't even have time to say who was attacking them.

The armor on the narn ship did not magically disappear. And it would be foolish for the narn not to have defences online as well considering the circumstances.....and anyway, acts of sacrifice shows a standup fight with two vorchans who destroy a narn cruiser with ease as well.

So? Is the Earth Alliance prone to civil wars because we saw that happen? The Centauri duel each other, poison each other and sabotage each other behind closed doors. We're arguing a hypothetical scenario, it would have to be slightly different than what we actually saw happen in the series, but an extrapolation of what we saw.

A coup is way more than a duel and the armed forces serve the throne, not the houses.

The whitestars were built to allow a smaller force the ability to project it's power over a greater area because the rangers were too small to just build Sharlins to fight the Shadows. What's Centauri's excuse, they have manpower to spare if their empire is as big as you seem to think. It's just as likely the Centauri couldn't afford enough larger ships to maintain their territory and needed a larger number of smaller alternatives.

Or they think it offers larger tactical advantages.

[Stofsk]

As far as the Lost Tales clip goes, we don't see much of that battle. It's a short clip and it doesn't really give us any information. Sure three Vorchans are seen blasting a Warlock to bits, but another Warlock one-shots one of those Vorchans, and broadsides another.

[Themightytom]

It is a classic example of an insular state, would you rather I use China before they started stealing everyone's military secrets? Or, as history is your turf, do you have a better one in mind?

The centauri are an insular race? You know, the same race which discovered earth and was their favored trading partner? The same race which developed a great fad for earth stuff? The same race which is aptly engaged in commerce in Babylon 5?

Man, your definition of insular is pretty bad.

Thanas, are you unaware that the argument I was making to Stark regarding the Centauri as insular was specifically regarding the period between their withdrawal from galactic affairs after their bombing to when they emerged to attack Earth? Do I not have enough trouble with quotes that I have to reiterate the entire thread for you?

At the end of the series Earth hadn't just had the crap kicked out of it by the League, they had already begun rebuilding from the civil war, were putting out their new Warlock class ships. While the Centauri were going into a period of isolation, Earth was getting new tech from the mimbari via the Interstellar alliance as they talked about at the end of the fourth season.

How does 'period of isolation' affect strength anyway? If he Centauri have more space, they benefit from periods of peace more than others. The Centauri 'weakness' thematic in the series is not necessarily a military or economic one; it's mostly shown as a moral or cultural one where they have lost their drive for dominance. That doesn't make their military suck, and we see that when they use it (ie when they regain the will) they demonstrate their strength.

The level of wishful thinking and seeing what you want to see by calling those clips a 'pearl harbouresque' attack is great. Why is it a sneak attack? Because the EA is losing, and we know somehow that the larger and more advanced Centauri suck. Right?

Oh I don't know Stark, how's North Korea doing?

What makes you think it is a valid analogy?

Remember that big break through they had ever? That advanced technology they came up with? No one said the Centauri military sucks, just that their military isn't invincible. It's entirely possible that under Molari's leadership and after getting bombed to crap, his people united in an orgy of comradic progressivism but if they have no idea what the "cutting edge" is they have to reinvent the wheel while everyone else is sharing technical manuals and outsourcing production.

Irrelevant seeing as we know that the Centauri will not decline in power, as evidenced by the lost tales clip.

...and that's where I think you forgot what you were arguing. By the way, DO you have another analogy? I know the Centauri were modelled off of something, and you are pretty likely to be the guy who knows on whom...

Um, I beg to differ, note that my argument centered on innovation? The Centauri ships attacking Earth look like Vorchans, the same ships they were using the ISA beat them the first time. If north Korea builds a horde of outdated aircraft, they can startle the crap out of South Korea but they are going to be outperformed. We have no idea how powerful the Centauri are, we just know they caused a lot of damage to Earth.

a) Are they the same ships? They looked pretty larger and dissimilar with regards to the structure.
b) Even if they are the same ships, guess what - they ripped through the newer alliance ships in the video. That is a warlock getting its butt kicked by a single vorchan at the end of the clip.
c) All evidence suggests the Vorchan is a new development at the start of the show. 50 years is nothing in spacetime seeing as Earth still employs starfuries (which coincidentally also got their asses kicked)

They don't look dissimiliar to me, are you arguing that ships that look the same aren't admittedly, since I don't actually know the size of a warlock it's difficult to scale, but wooaaaaah pump the break on the other assumptions!

There's a warlock getting it's butt kicked, and there is also a Vorchan getting IT's butt kicked by a Warlock taking fore from at least one Vorchan on screen and something else off screen firing the same effect. Rather than assume that either Warlock's vary in ability wildly, or Vorchans do, that the Warlock getting it's butt kicked at the beginning had already taken considerable fire, and the one that was getting pummelled at the end, and still firing, (note the large explosion on the ship on the left from one of the warlock's SECONDARY weapons) probably outclasses Vorchans.

Even if the Vorchan is within it's lifespan, Earth is a generation of development ahead, at least. While the Centauri were releasing the Vorchan, the EA was releasing the Omega. Remember how B5 destroyed the Centauri ship, and then had TROUBLE destroying an Omega?

How many ships do you see evacuating from the narn homeworld?

Thanas, the Narn fleet was elsewhere being carved up by the shadows, thanks for reinforcing the point that the Centauri needed their help. That being said the Narn reaction to an attack is irrelevant, we've already seen Earth's. If humans knew their planet was about to be destroyed, or that their orbital defense grid was down, as you suggested when you nsaid Earth was destroyed at the end of a long campaign, EA citizens panic and run, they don't fly around aimlessly like it's sunday morning.

No, this is actually a legitimate question. What did the shados contribute to the war effort?

Yeah I had to answer in a different post because of youtube posting fail, I did recognize that as a valid question I just couldn't get that part of the post fixed before the edit deadline ran out when i realized the youtube tags didn't work.
To answer verbally, they contributed by killing at least 10,000 Narns and six heavy cruisers, not to mention the one that went poking around Za'had'Dum.

The armor on the narn ship did not magically disappear. And it would be foolish for the narn not to have defences online as well considering the circumstances.....and anyway, acts of sacrifice shows a standup fight with two vorchans who destroy a narn cruiser with ease as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _qBc#t=94s
"Surprise bitches, BLAM!"

It wasn't even a G'Quan cruiser the Centauri shanked.

And in Acts of Sacrafices?
That's not a stand up fight the one defending the transport? That was not ease, the Narn were clearly taking fire for a transport and to do so their main weapons were oriented away from the Centauri. They had already taken damage as well from the earlier part of the battle, in which they clearly lasted long enough to get all of the other transports away. The Centauri hit the Narn a good number of times as well before it blew up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _qBc#t=94s
we can't be thinking of the same battle.

So? Is the Earth Alliance prone to civil wars because we saw that happen? The Centauri duel each other, poison each other and sabotage each other behind closed doors. We're arguing a hypothetical scenario, it would have to be slightly different than what we actually saw happen in the series, but an extrapolation of what we saw.

A coup is way more than a duel and the armed forces serve the throne, not the houses.

[/quote]

No, a coup can BE a duel, if you kill the Emperor and have a claim that small band of men would quietly support, or that enough of that small band of men would support. Lando didn't even bother to duel, he just had Vir stab the guy. You could even duel and kill the emperor FOR someone with a claim.

The whitestars were built to allow a smaller force the ability to project it's power over a greater area because the rangers were too small to just build Sharlins to fight the Shadows. What's Centauri's excuse, they have manpower to spare if their empire is as big as you seem to think. It's just as likely the Centauri couldn't afford enough larger ships to maintain their tertorriy and needed a larger number of smaller alternatives.

Or they think it offers larger tactical advantages.

[/quote]

Such as ability to project force, without having to spend a lot on huge ships and fighters....

[Stark]

Are you seriously saying the concept of a high agility ship with mainly forward firing weapons to attack the enemies heavy ships is not useful in B5?

Cause ... I've seen the show. You can't fool me.

The idea that he Centauri must be weak if they design and build smaller ships because they should be building bigger ones because ... Just because is fuckig bizarre. Doesn't the show say the bigger ones are really old? Responding to changes in tech and doctrine is now a sign of weakness.

[jollyreaper]

As was stated above, the Centauri were lacking in will. The loss of the Narn colony could be considered comparable to Britain losing her American colonies. Does this mean the young US should be kicking Brit ass all over the place? No. The War of 1812 was an example of American hubris.

As another example, the Russian military was huge and, on paper, still strong even after the end of the USSR but poor leadership let them get their asses kicked by the Chechens. By the time they fought the second round of that war they had better leadership and stomped Grozny into rubble.

The result of what Londo and the Shadows did was give the Centauri a taste for empire once more. They were completely lacking in the political will to make a go of it and Londo brought that dream back to life. We can also assume that the Centauri were also suffering from the economic malaise that seems to set in with mature empires that are no longer expanding but going to seed. While I don't believe it was ever specifically mentioned in the show, Londo's comments about the empire's best days being behind it and his people being a shadow of who they once were makes me think that finances were probably grim.

[jollyreaper]

And dude I don't know what you're talking about regarding Narn 'ascendance'. They lost their war in what seemed to be a few weeks against the 'decaying' Centauri. You know if you have one and I have five, I can decay to four and you can ascend to two and you still suck, right? :v

That was the intended perception. In the first season the Narn were setup to be the bad guys and the Centauri the sympathetic human-looking allies. That was part of the old JMS switcheroo.

So yes, the Narn were supposed to appear ascendant, the Centauri were certainly in decline, and the Narn really did bite off a lot more than they could chew.

[Stark]

I don't think they adjusted the he lower intensity of conflict that B5 represented. The EA certainly beat the Centauri at things like diplomacy and trade, and the strength of the Centauri couldn't be used due to the model UN shit going on. Once they decided to start a war they still had plenty of weight to throw around and literally no fear of consequences; drunk with the exhilaration of finally using all those spaceships and armies they had.

[Themightytom]

Are you seriously saying the concept of a high agility ship with mainly forward firing weapons to attack the enemies heavy ships is not useful in B5?

Cause ... I've seen the show. You can't fool me.

The idea that he Centauri must be weak if they design and build smaller ships because they should be building bigger ones because ... Just because is fuckig bizarre. Doesn't the show say the bigger ones are really old? Responding to changes in tech and doctrine is now a sign of weakness.

The Vorchan is highly agile? Based on what, they're always sitting in one place or moving slowly in a straight line. Hey stark, throw up the vid where one does a barrel roll will you? that concept would be great, when does it come in Vorchan?

Yeah you know those Victory class ships were soooo old.

I don't think they adjusted the he lower intensity of conflict that B5 represented. The EA certainly beat the Centauri at things like diplomacy and trade, and the strength of the Centauri couldn't be used due to the model UN shit going on. Once they decided to start a war they still had plenty of weight to throw around and literally no fear of consequences; drunk with the exhilaration of finally using all those spaceships and armies they had.

You mean literally drunk, What happens when you drink Stark, you think you're invisible, but meanwhile your judgement is slipping. It's B5verse, the model UN stuff is how everything worked, whether it was political infighting inside the Centauri republic or cooporation/competition between different interstellar parties, politics played a ridiculous role in everything. You can't be plowing around drunk in that environment. That's why removing the party that excelled most at politics, the Shadows, tips the scale in the other direction.

They sought the conflict but they never got drunk off it. Hey the Shadows could have straight up wiped out the Narn FOR the Centauri instead of just half their fleet. They didn't, they held back because they were in turn engaged in brinksmanship on a larger scale. Guess what dumbass race wiped out the first planet? Guess who showed up at their doorstep a year later because they read the situation wrong? Seriously Stark the Centauri would have had a better chance of defending their world WITH the Shadows help, and Londo killed them all because when the Vorlons looked, he blinked.

[Stark]

Dude I'm clearly referring got the large Cetauri ships. The medium Centauri ships only have to be agile enough to use their forward-centric weapons (ie more agile than a G'Quan). They didn't have beams or magic drives like the Minbari so of course they're not the endpoint of the concept, but the Centauri were obiosuly designing and building successful ships and not ... Whateve you think they were doing because you hate them.

I guess when you're as dumb as you are, these things slip by you. PS the whole point of the show is that B5 was a forum for avoiding conflict and I think the Centauri were clearly not as successful in this environment than they had been in the past with their brutal conquests.

I honestly don't know how relevant much of your bizarre post is.

[Themightytom]

Dude I'm clearly referring got the large Cetauri ships.

I guess when you're as dumb as you are, these things slip by you.

Stark you are a living caricature of yourself.

The medium Centauri ships only have to be agile enough to use their forward-centric weapons (ie more agile than a G'Quan). They didn't have beams or magic drives like the Minbari so of course they're not the endpoint of the concept, but the Centauri were obiosuly designing and building successful ships and not ... Whateve you think they were doing because you hate them.

So were the Narn, so was the Earth Alliance, you're clearly too retarded to grasp that it's not because of tech that they would lose.

PS the whole point of the show is that B5 was a forum for avoiding conflict and I think the Centauri were clearly not as successful in this environment than they had been in the past with their brutal conquests.

Duh? That's why they need the Shadows?

I honestly don't know how relevant much of your bizarre post is.

I know Stark I know. It's alright have a donut.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay Centauri battle clips:

Acts of Sacrifice - specifically the scene where the Centauri attack the Narn, and surround and destroy a Narn warship. 3 Vorchans perhaps 1/3 the Length of a Narn cruiser wipe out the same ship. Particular note is the penetration of the weapons at 1:22, where it shoots completely through the ship from one side to the other, without stopping, thereby indicating the extreme penetration of Centauri weapons against warships. (again WHERE you hit matters more than simply hitting a ship.)

Centauri vs Drazi The Centauri face a numerically superior force of Drazi Sunhawks, and demonstrate tremendous point defense capabilities against their missiles. They also have guided munitions that are superior to anything the Drazi have. This is representative of the forces when the Centauri were fighting the League and Narns, which is NOT a trivial feat. (the only forces I can recall standing off the DRazi were the White Stars, and there were only ~80 out of 150 or so of those at that time as I recall JMS saying.)

Narn vs Centauri Narn ship ambushes Centauri vessel of roughly equal size, and they duke it out. Narn ship manages to destroy hte Centauri due to getting the drop and opening strikes. However, Narn ship is so badly damaged that it is destroyed on attempting to jump out, which in my mind means that the Narns were almost critically damaged by the Centauri ship despite the former having the advantage of surprise. Which again points to the Centauri having the ship advantage over the Narns.


In the Beginning Centauri Vorchan getting the drop on Narn warship. Single Vorchan destroys Narn cruiser in a sustained volley of fire.

The evidence presented above is a strong argument for the power of the Centauri's fleet vs the Narn fleet, vs the League, and so on. Despite being in 'decline' it is quite evident frm the series that the Centauri can amass quite a formidable military force that can take on enemies, even if their ships are vastly smaller than some of the other powers (like the Narns or EA). This is again the more varied and dynamic way combat happens in b5 unlike the more stagnant forms of Star Wars - in B5 small, mobile ships with firepower can have an advantage over bigger ones - at least in the right circumstances. Indeed Vorchans (the fast attack ships) demonstrate capabilities which match or exceed the abilities of Drazi (who also use smaller ships) the Drakh, and the white stars themselves (which Centauri ships have also crippled with their weapons - CF Delenn's White Star in season 5.) They do not have to be as agile as fighters to have na advantage (White Star's aren't) they just have to be more agile than a bigger ship (which they are.) Inded Centauri ships having some form of missile weapon actually makes them superior to white Stars, whose weaponry is all forward-firing and unguided.

Smaller ships have the advantage of being easier to build and replace, as well as givin you the numbers that can allow you to patrol and garrison your territory, which the Centauri have quite a bit of at that. Numbers can also give you flexibility in combat, as you can divide your forces up to attack in different ways, whereas one ship can only be in one place at one time (or facing in one direction, or whatever.)

[Stark]

Does Tom know he appears to be talking to himself y/n? The only person who says the Centari shouldn't have built smaller, more agile ships because they're powerful is him. I guess I haven't huffed enough paint to see what his point is.

The problem with clips like that is the situation is really importan in B5; it doesn't take that many hits to kill something, so surprise, alertness, position etc can easily turn a battle. The Centauri seem to be all about volume of fire, which gives them advantages, but they dont seem to use beams or has particularly good arcs of fire.

[Connor MacLeod]

Numbers has the advantage defensively too. As seen with the Drazi, multiple smaller Centauri ships can basically 'look out' for one another and help to join their defenses and help intercept fire.

It also has advantages when it comes to concentration of fire. Doing some rough back of the envelope volume calcs I figure an Omega has the same volume as at least several dozen Centauri medium cruisers (the Vorchans) depending on your exact dimensions. Now assuming construction materials, gun quality, etc. held equal (which it probably doesn't) 2 dozen Centauri cruisers is going to outgun said Omega (at least in terms of number of guns) many times over, and the ability to concentrate that in single arcs is going to make it hard for the larger, slower Omega to defend against that sheer concentration of fire or to bring its heavier arcs to bear. Which makes sense, because this is much the same tactic the Centauri used on the Narns (acts of Sacrifice) as well as what fighters use on starships (like against the Centauri ship that attacked B5) and the White Stars are pretty much built on this concept (and crushed Omegas quite easily that way.)

Now before someone asks 'why does EA build big ships' - big ships still have advantages in other ways. They have the size and volume to be more versatile for one. Omegas carry fighters. Centauri ships don't seem to (at least not to the same degree EA does, anmd not with the smaller, White STar like Vorchans.) Bigger ships like the Omega are clearly meant for power projection/show the flag/long range operations - this can make them good for offensive duties (for example). EA is/was IIRC a very expansionist government for much of B5, so their mentality is going to be about growing their boarders. The Centauri had long since passed their expansionist phase (except in the sense to reclaim lost glories perhaps) - they seemed more focused on protecting the territory they did have - which is what large numbers of small ships owuld be ideally suited to.

It's more of a 'specialization vs generalist' approach - specialized will always beat a generalist given all else is equal, but a generalist will be capable of more things better than the specialist ever will.

I would also note that Centauri ships seem to favor close in attacks vs the Narns - those large, fixed-axis beam weapons are their heaviest guns, and seem to be well suited to long range engagements (like we saw in The Long, Twilight Struggle.) Most beam armed ships (Except the Minbari and Shadows) will generally be at a disadvantage close up agianst a pulse armed ship, but the pulse-armed ship will be at a disadvantage at a distance - that's one way in which situation and importance can play a huge role in B5, and it fits how we've seen combat ranges vary from BVR thosuands of km engagements (the Long, Twilight struggle) to point blank knife fights that Vorchans and White STars and fighters commonly used.