Doctor Who Stuff

[The Romulan Republic]

Here are some details, Havok:

I think Day of the Moon is shitty because it had the Doctor mind control the entire human race to force them to commit mass murder with little or no hesitation or remorse.

As I am watching this episode currently... I think this is a pretty bad assessment of what he did. He didn't force them to commit mass murder unless the Silence doesn't leave. What he did was give humans a self defense against something they didn't or wouldn't have had, for y'know, ever. It's not like Harriet Jones blasting a retreating and defeated ship out of the sky. It was a completely entrenched invasion that had already conquered humanity. He did what he always does, he gives the enemy the choice. There is nothing that humans could have done on their own.

Do you know that every member of that species is a soldier? Did the Silence have any time to withdraw before the humans started gunning them down? Did the Doctor even attempt to negotiate with the Silence?

In any case, what he did was a lot like what the Silence did. He forced humanity to do things without their knowledge and against their will. And he did it to every single human, or nearly every single one.

At that point, the Eleventh Doctor became a villain. You could argue it was necessary evil. But other villains have said as much.

Edit: it doesn't help that he showed no hesitation and even joked and boasted about what he was doing. He didn't treat it like an unpleasant necessity. He treated it like a game.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Another thought has occured to me having re-watched a few of the two-part stories. Namely, two-part stories, especially finales, tend to be really, really weak. Mainly because they spend the first episode setting things up, reveal the threat at end with the Doctor trapped in some nearly-inescapable cliffhanger, solve that in moments in episode two, spend the first half of episode two talking/showing how bad the threat is and then solve it in five minutes.

There are exceptions of course. "Aliens of London/World War Three" and "Impossible Planet/Satan Pit" avoided that and it helped considerably. For reference, I'm thinking of "Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel," most of the finales except "Journey's End" but that sucekd enough on it's own.

On the finales front though, they all seem to spend the first episode establishing a problem, only to go "oh no, turns out there's an even BIGGER problem to throw at you." Which sucks and means the first episode is kinda wasted.

[Stark]

It worked in Doomsday, because they threw in a mystery and then threw out a 'fake' threat before changing back. I guess it helps that the final episode had things occurring and not just a bunch of 'press button to defeat Daleks' and that the drama had actual cost and power.

Maybe people just forgot that writing can be weak if there's a strong power to it, but if you have the same weak writing with no chemistry/cost/jeopardy/etc it doesn't fly and people are better off not watching.

[Havok]

Do you know that every member of that species is a soldier? Did the Silence have any time to withdraw before the humans started gunning them down? Did the Doctor even attempt to negotiate with the Silence?

In any case, what he did was a lot like what the Silence did. He forced humanity to do things without their knowledge and against their will. And he did it to every single human, or nearly every single one.

At that point, the Eleventh Doctor became a villain. You could argue it was necessary evil. But other villains have said as much.

Edit: it doesn't help that he showed no hesitation and even joked and boasted about what he was doing. He didn't treat it like an unpleasant necessity. He treated it like a game.

How could he negotiate with something he is going to constantly forget? Not only that but it was the Silence that suggested that the humans should kill them on sight, clearly there was no compromise or negotiation to be had if they are so insistent on their control of humanity that they suggest killing them is the only way to stop them.

And do you know that every single member of that species was already conquered and under control? And yes the Silence did have time to withdraw. Not all of them were in the Oval Office next to Secret Service agents or their respective counterparts in other countries. Those that were, were being engaged by the anointed soldiers of the world/nations they had conquered and are tasked with defending those said nations and their people.

And yes, he turned the Silence's method of control against them, that hardly makes him a villain. You are seriously stretching things thin here to make your point seem valid.

[Scrib]

I've heard it suggested that the Silence's mind control was actually working on the Doctor in that scene, making him more brutal than he might have been. Seems perfectly plausible.

[Stark]

Yeah, because massively inconsistent levels of violence has never been seen in Doctor Who before - certainly not separated by as little as two episodes.

[Havok]

Yup. I just don't like River Song. Not the character, as I said before, but the actress.

[The Imperator]

Well, S1 was pretty good, though I have not seen all of them (never got around to it).

Season 2 was quite good, except for the Rose/Doctor love plot. It was not as well done as I would have liked, but hey, I don't run the show, so I just sat back and enjoyed it.

Season 3, while good, did have the problem of making Martha Jones into a Rose.2, and it kind of flubbed along after Family of Blood. i thought the season finale was alright though, better than 42 and Lazarus.

Season 4, while having some of my favorite ideas and plot threads, just kind of suffered from not being acted or directed well, and came off as meh.

Season 5 was actually the first season I ever saw, having been directed to the series by friends that knew of my love of Star Trek and Star Wars. I enjoyed the pilot, and it got me hooked on the show. The entire season was good, right up until the end. The Big Bang was probably my least favorite; it just felt meh.

Season 6 started out amazing, I enjoyed the episodes right up until Let's Kill Hitler. And even though the Doctor had engineered the Silence's destruction, it felt in character; these guys had set up his TARDIS to explode in S5 (at least, that's how I interpreted it) and so it made sense to get rid of them. The rest of Season was actually OK, up until the Marriage of River Song - gosh that episode was stupid. She was willing to BREAK THE UNIVERSE FOR LOVE! It was stupid! Although the end with Dorium was rather funny.

Season 7 started out as crap. Asylum of the Daleks was enjoyable, but the DALEKS NEURAL NETWORK was a ginormous plot hole. The Dinosaurs one was probably one of my favorite, at least continuity and lack of plot-hole wise. The Power of Three was crap, though the Old West fun was good. The Angels episode was not crap, and River almost worked in it - I didn't hate her like I did in MoRS and AGMGtW. The Christmas episode was good, and I enjoyed seeing an oldWho villain back. I have hopes for this second half after seeing the Christmas episode, and I can't wait for the Cyberman and Ice Warriors episodes coming up.

[Scrib]

Yup. I just don't like River Song. Not the character, as I said before, but the actress.

I have the opposite problem. River was intriguing in her first appearance..then you realised that she was literally at the peak of her maturity there. She was a tolerable presence in S5 but later on...

[Alkaloid]

The idea behind her character has merit, it was just the execution that was awful. Making her a smug and insufferable bitch could even have worked, except Hav is right and I don't think Kingston could have pulled that off properly even if the role had been much better written, and increasingly making her more super special by making her a time lord super psycho assassin pondette was unnecessary and inexcusably poor writing. Frankly I think the forgot the original ideal they had for her and just though she had a magic book she could read and shout spoilers! about.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As weak as a lot of Season 4 was, and as...questionable I suppose...as the acting was, it did have the advantage of being different with the Doctor and Donna having a purely platonic relationship. That was a major plus point.

[The Romulan Republic]

I haven't seen most of season four, but I agree. I also like Rory and Amy partly for being mostly just friends (and eventually family by marriage) of the Doctor and because they shake up the formula for companions by being a couple.

I'd like more changes to the formula. I'd like to have more companions from other times and places. I'd like alien companions. I'd also like another couple, or a brother and sister. Anything but more young human women from modern day Britain who are in love with the Doctor.

This is an example of a bigger problem, which is that Doctor Who's premise and history allow for a lot more inventiveness than the show has these days.

[Stark]

As weak as a lot of Season 4 was, and as...questionable I suppose...as the acting was, it did have the advantage of being different with the Doctor and Donna having a purely platonic relationship. That was a major plus point.

Why? If it's different .. And crap .. Why is that in itself intrinsically a 'plus point'? It really just shows that it sucked and reflects how much the previous season also sucked by highlighting bad writing and overall guidance.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Whilst all that is true, it at least did not follow the pattern set by the previous three seasons.

[Havok]

Rose: In love with the Doctor, affection returned.
Martha: In love with the idea of the Doctor, no affection returned.
Donna: Friends with the Doctor.
Amy: Wanted to bang the Doctor because she was afraid of getting married.

Outside of them being all human girls, every dynamic has been very different.

[Stark]

In the s3/s4 thing Martha was only similar because the writers were idiots or cowards. Finally changing that - a year late and with the worst actor ever - just shows how crap they were as creators.

I don't see that as 'a plus'. :v

[Eternal_Freedom]

The fact that they actually changed it?

[Stark]

Do you also believe 'Slow and steady wins the race'?

Because ps, it doesn't.

[Eternal_Freedom]

No, but better a small change than no change at all.

[Stark]

You know what would have been actually good?

Positive change. Things that worked. Quality drama.

I'd call those 'a plus'. Not suddenly realising your terrible writing (where people apparently changed gears or just never heard things were supposed to be different) and changing it to DIFFERENT terrible writing.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I said it was a plus, I never said it was a significant plus or that it redeemed the series. But it was a plus.

[Stark]

If they changed things to something bad every episode, would those 'plus' add up to become a really big 'plus'? What if they made a plan and then changed it, and then changed it again? Would that be doubleplus?

Change is not inherently good, especially when they clearly learnt in capital letters underlined 'nothing'.

[Eternal_Freedom]

No, lots of small cahnges like you describe would not add up to a big plus. The platonic relationship between the Doctor and his companion was a small redeeming feature in an otherwise weak season.

[DaveJB]

No, lots of small cahnges like you describe would not add up to a big plus. The platonic relationship between the Doctor and his companion was a small redeeming feature in an otherwise weak season.

The problem was that it came a season later than it should have done. Had he made it clear to Martha early on that he wasn't interested in any sort of romantic relationship, then it would have showed that he had learnt from his experience with Rose and that he wasn't going to get too close to his companions again. Instead, it came across more like he was stringing Martha along and/or wanted someone around who reminded him of Rose, which doesn't do a whole lot to make him likeable. Then when he eventually does tell Donna that he just wants a travelling companion, it comes across more like a reaction to the death of Astrid, who he barely even knew.

[Stark]

TBH they started that way, and just fell back into old habits which really didnt make sense in-story. Adult Martha lasted maybe three episodes before the writers got drunk and forgot Rose had left the show. That's as crazy as them getting drunk and forgetting the character work done in the two parter!