My point was that it would be rather impossible for the Minbari Warrior Cast to develop a poison that can kill a million year old energy being whose true form they have never seen and whom the Minbari Warrior Caste did not even know were energy creatures.
They knew since at least the first Shadow War, a thousand years before the events of B5. That'd be plenty of time to study them.
That would be like assuming that humans could develop an effect grain blight for killing crops by studying monkeys and other primates. Not very likely to say the least.
Actually it's quite likely. You do know that primates are used to test drugs that are intended for use in humans due to how similar we are. It's typically true that what kills one primate will kill another. Even diseases can jump species like that. HIV, for example.
Borgholio wrote:Actually it's quite likely. You do know that primates are used to test drugs that are intended for use in humans due to how similar we are. It's typically true that what kills one primate will kill another. Even diseases can jump species like that. HIV, for example.
Except that only works because we're actually related. Plants aren't even in the same kingdom as us, let alone energy beings.
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Borgholio wrote:They knew since at least the first Shadow War, a thousand years before the events of B5. That'd be plenty of time to study them.
They only met the illusory projection of an angelic being. They didn't know of their true form until Kosh and Ulkesh fought on B5. It'd be damn hard to create a poison based on only knowing of the "costume" so to speak.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
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Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
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They only met the illusory projection of an angelic being. They didn't know of their true form until Kosh and Ulkesh fought on B5. It'd be damn hard to create a poison based on only knowing of the "costume" so to speak.
The angelic form still has physical properties. It can touch and be touched. A Vorlon has a "crystalline" physical structure, according to JMS. The poison used was Florazine, which is a poison that breaks down crystalline entities. So all the Minbari had to do is run a scan when the Vorlons weren't working.
Again, I'm not denying that the Shadows had a hand in it. I'm just saying that it's not necessary.
The Vorlons have taken the effort to genetically alter the younger races so they see them as angelic beings. You really think they'll allow them to pierce the illusion that easily? Also, they've only ever revealed even that illusion to just a few select people while obscuring as much as they could about themselves from the rest, like the fact that they don't need enviro-suits or a special atmosphere at all.
Nope, a species as secretive as the Vorlons for sure wouldn't allow the younger races to get a close enough look to conceive of some sort of biological counter-measure.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
The Vorlons have made many dumbass mistakes in their history. They were arrogant and complacent. Why is it hard to believe that they just never cared to notice a Minbari running a quick scan on them?
A mistake that if it came out would reveal the extent of their deception and manipulation of the YR? Creating a portal to conquer other dimensions is one thing, failing at something they have been practicing over millenia and is crucial to their whole cause is another.
Also, I'm pretty sure to successfully analyze something as alien as the Vorlons you need something more than just a "quick scan". Also, this B5 where there are no magic tricorders.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
Well the Minbari had to learn about the nature of the Vorlons somehow. Either they did the research themselves, or they had help from the Shadows. There's no evidence that the Shadows helped them at any time during the series, so it must have been the Minbari acting alone.
Side note - were the Shadows even awake and active at that time, or were they still in hibernation?
Highlord Laan wrote:
The Drazi sent a fleet anyway.
Whoa, really? Where was that mentioned? And that is pretty hardcore of the Drazi to step up alone like that, especially knowing that by doing so they would be next on the chopping block once the Minbari knocked the Humans down.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
Highlord Laan wrote:
The Drazi sent a fleet anyway.
Whoa, really? Where was that mentioned? And that is pretty hardcore of the Drazi to step up alone like that, especially knowing that by doing so they would be next on the chopping block once the Minbari knocked the Humans down.
Drazi relation with humanity were amazing after the Dilgar War, and they saw it as a blood debt to be repaid. When the Minbari came calling, the Drazi gathered a massive fleet to come to the Alliance's aid, and then the Minbari made their ultimatum. The Drazi, warrior people that they are, sneered at them and sent the better portion of their entire navy into the fray anyway, which ended up "mysteriously disappearing in a tragic hyperspace accident." Even after that, they sent a trickle of ships, supplies and ground troops through more roundabout routes.
According to the EU, the Drazi are the best allies the Alliance has and vice versa. I'll have to find where in the EU I read it. I think it was in one of the novels.
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.
Not adding anything productive to the discussion, but did anyone find it amusing that the Minbari open their gunports as a salute, and somehow don't realize that it can be misinterpreted?
What level of unreasoning hidebound tradition can blind them from seeing that an aggressive action might be interpreted as.. an aggressive action?
Especially by cultures unfamiliar with their traditions, that generally means every damn alien species they encounter?
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I think the Minbari are just incredibly isolationist...so much so that they haven't encountered a new species in such a long time that it never occurred to them.
Cykeisme wrote:Not adding anything productive to the discussion, but did anyone find it amusing that the Minbari open their gunports as a salute, and somehow don't realize that it can be misinterpreted?
What level of unreasoning hidebound tradition can blind them from seeing that an aggressive action might be interpreted as.. an aggressive action?
Especially by cultures unfamiliar with their traditions, that generally means every damn alien species they encounter?
It all comes down to how stupidly dogmatic their society is. The Vorlons told them to. their entire civilization is built around the dictates of a man (Valen) that was a completely patsy for the Vorlons and their schemes.
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.
Cykeisme wrote:Not adding anything productive to the discussion, but did anyone find it amusing that the Minbari open their gunports as a salute, and somehow don't realize that it can be misinterpreted?
What level of unreasoning hidebound tradition can blind them from seeing that an aggressive action might be interpreted as.. an aggressive action?
Especially by cultures unfamiliar with their traditions, that generally means every damn alien species they encounter?
It all comes down to how stupidly dogmatic their society is. The Vorlons told them to. their entire civilization is built around the dictates of a man (Valen) that was a completely patsy for the Vorlons and their schemes.
I don't know how much we can blame it on Valen alone: Valen Spoiler
as Sinclair
had no problems with bending rules or basically playing silly buggers with any rule and regulation which caused him too much of an headache. However, he's clearly a Messianic figure in the Minbari culture and after him leaving and after the victory over the Shadows, the Minbari might have felt that they were now all fine and perfect since they all tried to be as close to Valen as possible (and of what we know of the man himself, he would probably have wanted the Minbari to think for themselves within the rules and regulations; and I sure as hell don't see him thinking the open gunport salute to be a good idea, considering how much trouble it caused him). The Minbari had just grown arrogant, complacent and so inwards-looking that dogmatism was only natural, once Valen was no longer around to teach them. And remember, it's very possible that Valen, unlike Sheridan and the rest, had no actual reason to doubt the Vorlons; I don't know if JMS has ever actually told why the other First Ones became so hostile to the Vorlons, but it must have happened during Valen's Shadow War since the First ones helped the Vorlons and the Minbari to defeat the Shadows. Whatever it was, it was not publicized and even the Minbari seemed not to be aware of it. Valen (at least Spoiler
as Sinclair
would probably have been willing to call foul if Vorlons had been complete dicks or had been untrustworthy. Of course Valen's personality flaws did make dogmatism easier to accept for the Minbari, with his background and quirks and all.
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As much as I would like to blame JMS entirely for this, it is possible that he was simply cutting and pasting form history. In the days of wood and sail, the common salute was to not merely open the gunports but to actually fire- a salvo of blank cannon shot in measured time, number equal to the rank of the thing or person being saluted (If I wasn't a gunner I shouldn't be here; fire one. I've left my home my wife and everything that's dear; fire two. etc...); a simle historical borrowing.
Monstrously, absurdly inappropriate for a first contact between spacegoing civilisations strangers to one another, though.
as far as Valen goes, I'm inclined to assume the law of unintended consequences kicked in there with a particularly brutal vengeance. He saved them, and their culture literally crystallised, if not fossilised, around him. partly out of gratitude but mainly Vorlon manipulation. He probably hated it, but once he was gone there was no-one left to stop the bureaucrats. (This is my other issue with Minbari stealth; it doesn't fit the rest of their culture. it's sneaky, creative, devious...downright chaotic, really. As the forces of order they should practically be issuing formal chivalrous challenges, not doing the ninja assassin bit.)
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Cykeisme wrote:Not adding anything productive to the discussion, but did anyone find it amusing that the Minbari open their gunports as a salute, and somehow don't realize that it can be misinterpreted?
What level of unreasoning hidebound tradition can blind them from seeing that an aggressive action might be interpreted as.. an aggressive action?
Especially by cultures unfamiliar with their traditions, that generally means every damn alien species they encounter?
One would have thought Londo would have mentioned this particular Minbari tradition to the Humans once he knew his warnings were going unheeded.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
Cykeisme wrote:Not adding anything productive to the discussion, but did anyone find it amusing that the Minbari open their gunports as a salute, and somehow don't realize that it can be misinterpreted?
What level of unreasoning hidebound tradition can blind them from seeing that an aggressive action might be interpreted as.. an aggressive action?
Especially by cultures unfamiliar with their traditions, that generally means every damn alien species they encounter?
If you're only used to thinking in terms of your own society and have no exposure to others, its very easy to fall into erroneous preconceptions. People do it quite frequently in real life and it leads to misunderstandings and complications, after all.
Actively seeking to understand another's perspective is not really engineered into humans as a rule. quite the opposite I think.
Earth didn't exactly go out of its way to research the Minbari, and they even ignored the advice Londo did give about sending a single ship.
It may have been a case of Valen knowing but not wanting to mess with set events.
He knows what will (should?) happen when Humans and Minbari first meet (and how it sort of all works out in the end) but he doesn't know what would happen if the two sides never went to war.
For instance, the war is what led directly to the Minbari discovering the nature of human souls. It led to a lot of changes in Minbari society itself. It was humbling for humanity, who stopped their expansion and gave diplomacy a shot instead - by starting up the Babylon project.
For that matter, they didn't bother to record a greeting in Centauri, a language they knew the Minbari could recognize. But then, the whole theme of the first half of "In The Beginning" is human hubris after the Dilgar War.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
It should be noted that the Earthforce fleet had orders to avoid first contact situation, so it's not that odd that they were unprepared for one, indeed had the captain been less of a gloryhound the earthforce fleet would have probably jumped away the moment it seemed they were detected or at least kept their distance better.
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Lord Revan wrote:It should be noted that the Earthforce fleet had orders to avoid first contact situation, so it's not that odd that they were unprepared for one, indeed had the captain been less of a gloryhound the earthforce fleet would have probably jumped away the moment it seemed they were detected or at least kept their distance better.
Sure he had "orders" but when your known as the shoot first think second Captain and you are specifically chosen to lead this mission it is pretty easy to read between the lines and know that the avoid contact/conflict portion of the orders was just to make the civilian command happy and that the military actually wanted this to be a true show of strength mission.
My point was that it would be rather impossible for the Minbari Warrior Cast to develop a poison that can kill a million year old energy being whose true form they have never seen and whom the Minbari Warrior Caste did not even know were energy creatures.
They knew since at least the first Shadow War, a thousand years before the events of B5. That'd be plenty of time to study them.
That would be like assuming that humans could develop an effect grain blight for killing crops by studying monkeys and other primates. Not very likely to say the least.
Actually it's quite likely. You do know that primates are used to test drugs that are intended for use in humans due to how similar we are. It's typically true that what kills one primate will kill another. Even diseases can jump species like that. HIV, for example.
Some Miinbari "knew" that Vorlons looked like angels, they knew this because they were in angel form when they present Babylon 4. There is no reason to believe that the Minbari knew anything else or were shown anything else by the Vorlons.
It is much simpler to assume the Shadows slipped them the poison as opposed to thinking that the Warrior Caste first had reason to scan the angels saving them from the Shadows, save that information for 1000 years, and then use it out of the blue to develop a poison.
