Fantastic Four/Fant4stic

[Broomstick]

I'm of two minds about this. On one side, I just can't see me or Clark being black. Sorry. We've been caucasian for three quarters of a century. You better have a 'very' good reason to mess with that.

Clark is an alien - he could be anything.

Anyhow, we've had an actor 1/4 Japanese play Clark for four years on TV. Not everyone liked that version (so what else is new?) but it worked to at least that extent. The biggest obstacle to Clark being black is that it alters the dynamic of Clark's upbringing as a "normal" Kansas boy and blending in to mainstream American society. That is less an obstacle for modern version of Clark, but back in the 1930's it just wouldn't have been plausible as a story. Maybe in New York City, or Chicago, or Detroit, but not 1930's Kansas.

[The Romulan Republic]

Fox is now asking people what they want for the Fantastic Four film: link

FOX ASKING FANS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO WITH FANTASTIC FOUR?
5.5K39
21663

Fantastic Four performed this weekend way below expecations and even under second guess estimates.

The movie only brought in a paltry $26.2 million, which was a lot under the initial $40-50 million hoped for by Fox, and even under the $28-29 million industry insiders were estimating.

As I previously stated, how could anyone working on the movie not know how bad it was going to turn out, whether it was from a pantless Thing to a poorly rendered Doom.

Now it turns out Fox is going to the fans for help.

It's not unheard of for movie goers to attend screenings where studios pass out surveys in hopes of getting some quality feedback. Marvel has done it when they were looking for fans' response to what upcoming movie they were most looking forward to (Iron Man 4 was an option), but at least Marvel wasn't asking about the movie the fans were watching.

Now reports from Twitter surface stating Fox handed out a survey in various theaters across the country; however, no pics have surfaced as of yet.

Regarding what Fox should do, it's obvious the answer would be to get Marvel's help, similar to what Sony is doing with Spider-Man. There's no question Kevin Feige is the man when it comes to comic book movies.

(tweets spotted by CBM)


"Fantastic Four" has an August 7, 2015 release directed by Josh Trank from a screenplay by Jeremy Slater, Simon Kinberg and Josh Trank; produced by Matthew Vaughn, Simon Kinberg, Hutch Parker, Robert Kulzar and Gregory Goodman; starring: Miles Teller, Michael B. Jordan, Kate Mara, Jamie Bell and Toby Kebbell.

Synopsis:

FANTASTIC FOUR, a contemporary re-imagining of Marvel’s original and longest-running superhero team, centers on four young outsiders who teleport to an alternate and dangerous universe, which alters their physical form in shocking ways. Their lives irrevocably upended, the team must learn to harness their daunting new abilities and work together to save Earth from a former friend turned enemy.

That sounds more like they want feedback for this film than that they want ideas for the next one.

But if they are going to the fans for story ideas, they've pretty much hit rock bottom. Asking fans for ideas seems nice in theory, but there's a reason fan fiction is not generally held in high regard. And a lot of fans have a very obsessive, narrow view, often based in nostalgia and adherence to the status quo. Worse, you get fan debates where people have an agenda to push, an ax to grind.

Outsourcing your writing to the fans is just about the worst move you can make.

[Iroscato]

Fox is now asking people what they want for the Fantastic Four film: link

FOX ASKING FANS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO WITH FANTASTIC FOUR?
5.5K39
21663

Fantastic Four performed this weekend way below expecations and even under second guess estimates.

The movie only brought in a paltry $26.2 million, which was a lot under the initial $40-50 million hoped for by Fox, and even under the $28-29 million industry insiders were estimating.

As I previously stated, how could anyone working on the movie not know how bad it was going to turn out, whether it was from a pantless Thing to a poorly rendered Doom.

Now it turns out Fox is going to the fans for help.

It's not unheard of for movie goers to attend screenings where studios pass out surveys in hopes of getting some quality feedback. Marvel has done it when they were looking for fans' response to what upcoming movie they were most looking forward to (Iron Man 4 was an option), but at least Marvel wasn't asking about the movie the fans were watching.

Now reports from Twitter surface stating Fox handed out a survey in various theaters across the country; however, no pics have surfaced as of yet.

Regarding what Fox should do, it's obvious the answer would be to get Marvel's help, similar to what Sony is doing with Spider-Man. There's no question Kevin Feige is the man when it comes to comic book movies.

(tweets spotted by CBM)


"Fantastic Four" has an August 7, 2015 release directed by Josh Trank from a screenplay by Jeremy Slater, Simon Kinberg and Josh Trank; produced by Matthew Vaughn, Simon Kinberg, Hutch Parker, Robert Kulzar and Gregory Goodman; starring: Miles Teller, Michael B. Jordan, Kate Mara, Jamie Bell and Toby Kebbell.

Synopsis:

FANTASTIC FOUR, a contemporary re-imagining of Marvel’s original and longest-running superhero team, centers on four young outsiders who teleport to an alternate and dangerous universe, which alters their physical form in shocking ways. Their lives irrevocably upended, the team must learn to harness their daunting new abilities and work together to save Earth from a former friend turned enemy.

That sounds more like they want feedback for this film than that they want ideas for the next one.

But if they are going to the fans for story ideas, they've pretty much hit rock bottom. Asking fans for ideas seems nice in theory, but there's a reason fan fiction is not generally held in high regard. And a lot of fans have a very obsessive, narrow view, often based in nostalgia and adherence to the status quo. Worse, you get fan debates where people have an agenda to push, an ax to grind.

Outsourcing your writing to the fans is just about the worst move you can make.

I'd say making a soulless, pointless grimdark reboot purely to keep the rights and with an unproven director who has literally one decent movie to his name (according to IMDB, anyway), then interfering heavily in production causing said director to become disillusioned from the entire process is a much worse move than opening some kind of dialogue with people who actually care about these characters for once.

[Guardsman Bass]

It would be harder to do a black Bruce Wayne, but not impossible. You could make it so that he came from a group of well-off black families in segregated Gotham (which did exist in real life cities under Segregation, although they were obviously much rarer than rich white folks), with his father taking the family to billionaire status in the wake of desegregation while trying to turn Gotham around before being killed along with his wife. Bruce's story would then flow from there.

[The Romulan Republic]

It would be harder to do a black Bruce Wayne, but not impossible. You could make it so that he came from a group of well-off black families in segregated Gotham (which did exist in real life cities under Segregation, although they were obviously much rarer than rich white folks), with his father taking the family to billionaire status in the wake of desegregation while trying to turn Gotham around before being killed along with his wife. Bruce's story would then flow from there.

Having rich black people isn't a problem. Its rarer than rich white people, but not unheard of by any means (obviously).

But Batman being black would alter the dynamic of Bruce's interactions with the rest of society.

How would it affect his relationship with the police? How many more members of the public would be inclined to view a black vigilante negatively? How would the prejudice Bruce would face as a black man contribute to his sense that he can't rely on officials for justice, but must take it into his own hands?

Actually, with a good writer it could be really interesting. But with a bad one, it could be a fucking catastrophe.

Edits: Basically, with a black Batman you'd be stepping into a huge, volatile political and social controversy and you'd risk losing focus on the core of the character as a result. It would be a tricky balancing act. Not necessarily a bad idea, but not something to be attempted by anyone but an exceptionally skilled writer.

Actually, we had a thread on this not too long ago. Its on the second page of the fantasy forum.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd say making a soulless, pointless grimdark reboot purely to keep the rights and with an unproven director who has literally one decent movie to his name (according to IMDB, anyway), then interfering heavily in production causing said director to become disillusioned from the entire process is a much worse move than opening some kind of dialogue with people who actually care about these characters for once.

Part of the problem with fans is that they often care too much to be remotely objective.

[Guardsman Bass]

How would it affect his relationship with the police? How many more members of the public would be inclined to view a black vigilante negatively? How would the prejudice Bruce would face as a black man contribute to his sense that he can't rely on officials for justice, but must take it into his own hands?

That sounds incredibly interesting to me. Would black Bruce Wayne taking extra steps to conceal that he's black (like a full face mask covering), since that might make him more identifiable? I definitely bet that the Gotham Police Department would frown more heavily on black Batman than white Batman. I think hiding would be even easier for black Bruce Wayne. If he pretends to be a frivolous playboy with daddy's money, then the public will be all the more willing to accept that guise because racism.

Granted, I think the existing fanbase for Batman would react very badly to that regardless of whether the actual comic itself was good or bad.

Now, Clark Kent seems like it would be even easier to change because he's an alien. But being a minority would actually change him a lot from the whitebread Son of Kansas background he has in the comics. Clark could find his way towards being similar to existing white Superman, but it would be pretty different.

[The Romulan Republic]

Black Clark Kent appeals to me because the thought of how racists would react to a nigh-omnipotent black hero arriving from the stars and saving the world is both hilarious and horrifying.

[Broomstick]

FOX ASKING FANS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO WITH FANTASTIC FOUR?

Give the rights back to Marvel.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't know. The Marvel films are getting kind of crowded as it is. Add the Fantastic Four to Infinity War, for example, and it might be a real mess.

[Bedlam]

Not having seen this FF4 film I don't know if they handle it well. Since I've heard a lot about what wrong, but nothing about that, I'm assuming it's either a non-issue because they handled it well or, if they didn't, it's one of the most minor things wrong with this movie and thus does not merit mention compared to other problems.

Reed rather awkwardly asks about it and Sue is adopted, it's not mentioned again after that, it seems fairly organic to the rest of the film.

[phred]

Honestly, if they had made Reed and/or Ben black it probably wouldn't bug me as much, because the whole siblings thing wouldn't be an issue at all.

[Grumman]

I'm of two minds about this. On one side, I just can't see me or Clark being black. Sorry. We've been caucasian for three quarters of a century. You better have a 'very' good reason to mess with that.

Clark is an alien - he could be anything.

But Clark isn't "anything", he is a white male. If you want a movie about an alien of African appearance coming to Earth and becoming a superhero, make a spiritual successor to Superman. Don't be one of these fucking cowards who thinks the only way you can make a black superhero popular is by sneaking him in under a white superhero's name.

[FaxModem1]

You have a point. That is the whole point of the DC property(formerly Wildstorm) Icon. He is essentially Superman, if he was an alien baby who crashed in America during the 19th century, was picked up by a slave woman, took on his rescuer's appearance, and dealt with two centuries of American racism. Interesting thing about Icon is that he is very much a rich Black Republican who becomes more heroic because of his sidekick Rocket, a teenage black girl who gets him to be a better superhero.

[Broomstick]

Honestly, if they had made Reed and/or Ben black it probably wouldn't bug me as much, because the whole siblings thing wouldn't be an issue at all.

NO! They can not make The Thing black, canon dictates he is ORANGE!!! [/fanboy]

It's kind of pointless to make Ben Grim black in a sense since he does wind up orange, if you're trying to show diversity (if the best actor for the role is black that's a different matter). Reed is in many ways the one it makes the most sense to make black. Prejudice could help explain why a genius like him isn't immediately snatched up by private industry or government agencies or whatever.

[Elheru Aran]

Honestly, if they had made Reed and/or Ben black it probably wouldn't bug me as much, because the whole siblings thing wouldn't be an issue at all.

NO! They can not make The Thing black, canon dictates he is ORANGE!!! [/fanboy]

It's kind of pointless to make Ben Grim black in a sense since he does wind up orange, if you're trying to show diversity (if the best actor for the role is black that's a different matter). Reed is in many ways the one it makes the most sense to make black. Prejudice could help explain why a genius like him isn't immediately snatched up by private industry or government agencies or whatever.

(bolded for emphasis)

^ That is a great point. Like I said, in a modern context, the 'starving scientist' notion (where most writers put Reed before he gets his powers) simply doesn't work-- if you stand out enough in your educational context, you will get headhunted. Apparently (in the comics at least) he's smart enough that he went to *several* universities-- Cal Tech, MIT, Harvard, graduating with several degrees by the time he was 20. *That* gets noticed. Even if you're black, it gets noticed. But to make it easier for movie audiences to swallow, you could keep it to one-- MIT is reasonably nerdy. And what if one black super-genius goes to MIT? It's a school of highly intelligent students, each of whom is (almost) guaranteed a job when they leave. I can buy a black person not being noticed by the industry establishment because of simple racism.

[Vendetta]

Interesting article in the Grauniad about the film, and why origin stories are the bane of superhero movies. (Which I think Marvel have mostly figured out by now, but everyone else is still struggling with)

[Batman]

Origin stories didn't hurt 'Superman' or 'Batman' much.

[Vendetta]

Origin stories didn't hurt 'Superman' or 'Batman' much.

(Tim Burton's) Batman hardly did the origin at all. It put in a few very short flashbacks only when they were relevant. Batman opens with Batman.

Even in the Nolan moves everyone talks about the two that don't have the origin story in and not the one that did.

[Guardsman Bass]

I tend to agree. Batman and Superman are famous enough that you could probably just do a movie with them, without bothering to set up any sort of origin story. You'd only need to set up why they're fighting each other in a Batman vs Superman movie.

That wasn't quite as possible with Marvel's Avengers, but now that particular connected continuity is so well-set-up that they could easily bring in the Fantastic Four as part of another superhero's movie, and then have them do their own afterwards without ever getting into the origins of how the Fantastic Four became that way.

[Elheru Aran]

I tend to agree. Batman and Superman are famous enough that you could probably just do a movie with them, without bothering to set up any sort of origin story. You'd only need to set up why they're fighting each other in a Batman vs Superman movie.

That wasn't quite as possible with Marvel's Avengers, but now that particular connected continuity is so well-set-up that they could easily bring in the Fantastic Four as part of another superhero's movie, and then have them do their own afterwards without ever getting into the origins of how the Fantastic Four became that way.

Origin stories, IMO, are justified IF you can do them without intruding excessively upon the rest of the film, and if the hero(es) in question is/are fairly obscure or only popular within the comic-book sphere. Take the Suicide Squad; you don't even need an origin story per se, their whole mission is their origin and purpose. Super-villain inmates from a max-security prison are given a chance to redeem themselves by doing a mission for the government. There, you're done. Who really cares about the origin of the specific villains? Those that know won't need it; those that don't, won't care.

[Lord Revan]

Well Iron Man as an origin story IIRC and it worked.

[Iroscato]

Origin stories didn't hurt 'Superman' or 'Batman' much.

(Tim Burton's) Batman hardly did the origin at all. It put in a few very short flashbacks only when they were relevant. Batman opens with Batman.

Even in the Nolan moves everyone talks about the two that don't have the origin story in and not the one that did.

A shame really, as I see Begins as equal to Dark Knight. Certainly better than the third, which whilst decent never reached the same heights.

[Broomstick]

Well Iron Man as an origin story IIRC and it worked.

I think the Iron Man origin is uniquely compelling as a stand-alone story in itself and that makes it easy to build a dramatic plot and movie around it. It's not just phlebetonium induced power up followed by learning to use new talents, it's a story of kidnap, suffering, and redemption. Fits right into a motif of many stories and myths of the pampered hero undergoing trials and emerging better. In the old days it would be kidnapped and enslaved followed by escape, whether in myth or reality (Every Spartacus movie or mini-series ever made, AND the real-life tale even though it didn't end well)

As opposed to "bit by radioactive spider, now sticks to walls" or "hit by truck and got radioactive goo in eyes, now enhanced blind man" or "puberty hits and powers emerge". Most superhero origins are a sudden wham event followed by the hero learning/adjusting, but you need a story with drama and plot on top of that to make a good movie. What Tony Stark went through was a more extended process.

Or maybe I'm not conveying this particularly well. The point I'm fumbling at is that the Iron Man origin is, in some ways, quite different from that of Spiderman or a lot of other heroes.

[Tsyroc]

From what I've read online in the deluge of crap that's come out over the last few days, the director wanted Jordan and the studio insisted on Kate Mara being in the movie.

Back when the casting was coming out on the internet and people were bitching about Johnny Storm being black, it was also postulated that Sue was still white because people wouldn't want to see a white man (Reed) with a black woman.

Personally, as a Thing fan, I had more issues with Jamie Bell being Ben Grimm than anything else in the casting. But that was a personal issue of mine since I hadn't liked Bell in a couple of other movies I had seen. I recently saw him in Defiance and have changed my mind a bit.