Three Galactic Empires

[NecronLord]

I do not recall any of that from the movies. Is it an old EU thing or a new one?

That's in the original movie. Y'know, Star Wars?

The droid comes in and injects Leia with a serum, then Vader goes out to Tarkin Later. "Her resistance to the Mind Probe is considerable."

EU daft-silly-stuff has made out that the thing then did all kinds of stuff with branding irons to her and electroshock, but in fact she looks fresh as a daisy after an interrogation session because... the mind probe is not physically traumatic.

In Star Wars Rebels, the Inquisitor states that he's not bothering on Kanan because Jedi are "trained to resist mind probes" and then he begins physically torturing Kanan.

[Boeing 757]

How the heck is a mind probe supposed to work? I assumed lazily up until now that Vader tried to read her thoughts like he did Luke's in ROTJ, or the Jedi Council Anakin's in TPM. Is it like the psychic probes employed by the Trantorian Galactic Empire?

[Prometheus Unbound]

Do we have this for sure? I mean data analysis is not exactly the kind of stuff that would not be mentioned unless it became plot relevant. And this means that we can't discount it existing in the universe unless we have proof of that.

Would have been kinda useful when trying to look up info on the Mule or 2nd foundation or Earth... they spent ages in libraries manually compiling this info. Quick google search (equivalent) should have found what they were after.

[Darth Holbytlan]

How the heck is a mind probe supposed to work? I assumed lazily up until now that Vader tried to read her thoughts like he did Luke's in ROTJ, or the Jedi Council Anakin's in TPM. Is it like the psychic probes employed by the Trantorian Galactic Empire?

The radio plays included the full interrogation scene with Leia. Basically, the mind probe makes you very suggestible. If he tells you that you are talking to your father, then that's what you think. If the interrogator tells you are in incredible pain, then you are.

IIRC, the radio plays were of higher canon than the rest of the EU, so as far as Legends canon goes, that's probably the best we have. How it works in the new canon, I have no idea.

[bilateralrope]

Let's also remember that the Galactic Empire has a shelf life. After 20 years, it starts losing huge parts to the rebellion. Who aren't the most happy with informants.

Unless you somehow get a message to Palpatine about Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda etc. Wiping them out would almost certainly guarantee that Palpatine stays in power. Oh, and you could also do things like point out about the weakness to the Death Star, and where the Rebels are located / likely to hide. Somehow I don't think that having Palpatine remain in power indefinitely would be a good thing...

How short do you think your life expectancy would be if you reveal you know things like that ?

[Simon_Jester]

I recently read a fic, set around the time of the Battle of Hoth, from the point of view of a cynical Star Destroyer captain who's figured out one of the Empire's more important secrets. Important, especially, from the point of view of all those people wondering about the Sith Lord the Republic never caught during the Clone Wars.

He's at a party. It occurs to the captain that he could doom everyone in the room, obviously including himself, with three words:

"Palpatine was Sidious."

We do NOT want to go down the road of using in-story knowledge of the Star Wars universe to gain an advantage in Palpatine's empire.

[bilateralrope]

It's worse than that. There are too many people on earth who know the same things you do. Hiding the existence of the SW movies from the Empire would be impossible. Best case is that Earth is put under quarantine to keep that information contained. But a quarantine would require enough people who Palpatine trusts to keep the secret to enforce it. I doubt he can spare enough people he trusts to stay quiet if they know, so it would be people he trusts to ignore all communication attempts from the planet they are blockading.

The biggest threat of something slipping through the blockade would not be someone from Earth breaking out. It would be someone from outside slipping in and smuggling a copy of the movies out.

[NecronLord]

How the heck is a mind probe supposed to work? I assumed lazily up until now that Vader tried to read her thoughts like he did Luke's in ROTJ, or the Jedi Council Anakin's in TPM. Is it like the psychic probes employed by the Trantorian Galactic Empire?

The radio plays included the full interrogation scene with Leia. Basically, the mind probe makes you very suggestible. If he tells you that you are talking to your father, then that's what you think. If the interrogator tells you are in incredible pain, then you are.

IIRC, the radio plays were of higher canon than the rest of the EU, so as far as Legends canon goes, that's probably the best we have. How it works in the new canon, I have no idea.

The radio plays and novelizations are now fan-fiction.

[Adam Reynolds]

The logical conclusion with a mind probe is that Vader used a mix of technical and Force abilities to attempt to make Leia talk. We obviously saw the droid entering the room, which indicates that it wasn't purely Dark Side abilities.

She was obviously able to resist because she was Force sensitive herself, in addition to being strong willed in general.

[The Romulan Republic]

You'd think that would have tipped Vader off to her being Force sensitive if it were the case.

[NecronLord]

It is also explicit in Rebels that the interrogation droid doesn't cause pain. Whatever the mind probe is, it's more exotic than simple physical torture. Likewise, Kallus talks as if it's doing something, while it's floating next to Kanan's head. Likewise, Tarkin and Kallus, non force sensitives, can operate the mind-probe droid.



Here's the interrogation droid hovering around Kanan, doing nothing visible, and then the Inquisitor walks into the room and proposes causing Kanan pain to make him talk.

Likewise, if you can lie to the mind probe as well as keeping it out, why didn't Leia already send them to Dantooine in Star Wars? Presumably it can't be lied to, or Leia would have done so, and it's not simple pain that's going to make people incriminate themselves, that's something people do to avoid pain. So shopping your neighbors randomly to the ISB may just result in them realizing you're wasting ISB time.

[Boeing 757]

Sounds rather similar to the psychic probes in the Foundationverse, i.e. it reads one's actual thoughts using electromagnetism.

[Adam Reynolds]

You'd think that would have tipped Vader off to her being Force sensitive if it were the case.

Not necessarily. Palpatine was easily able to resist the Jedi without them realizing his Force abilities. As for Leia, is is likely he just assumed that she was strong willed. Vader was able to detect Luke's presence in the Force because he was using it actively.

Additionally I would argue that Darth Vader's force powers were actually waning during the events of ANH. It is interesting that he lacks the clairvoyance to find the Rebels hidden fortress when he is easily able to confirm that the Rebels are hiding on Hoth. There are three possibilities that come to mind. The first is that the military sucess of the Rebel Alliance led to a slightly lighter Force presence in the galaxy. The second is that the remergence of Obi-Wan had a role and the third is that it was due to the fact that Luke and Leia were beginning to discover their abilities. While Leia was not directly learning her abilities, she was likely using them passively to resist Darth Vader.

It is likely that all three factors had a role. Though the fact that Vader appeared back on top of things in ESB indicates that Obi-Wan and the Rebel Alliance presence were dominating factors. Once the Rebel Alliance goes on the run and Obi-Wan is killed, it appears that Vader is more able to see again.

[NecronLord]

As shown above, Tarkin and Kallus can operate the mind probe, so force sensitivity is not required.

[Darth Holbytlan]

IIRC, the radio plays were of higher canon than the rest of the EU, so as far as Legends canon goes, that's probably the best we have. How it works in the new canon, I have no idea.

The radio plays and novelizations are now fan-fiction.

Uh, yeah. I think I covered that in that last paragraph you quoted.

Here's the interrogation droid hovering around Kanan, doing nothing visible, and then the Inquisitor walks into the room and proposes causing Kanan pain to make him talk.

Interesting. That does suggest that the mind probe cannot be used to cause pain directly, now. Unless the Inquisitor just prefers causing pain with the Force.

Likewise, if you can lie to the mind probe as well as keeping it out, why didn't Leia already send them to Dantooine in Star Wars? Presumably it can't be lied to, or Leia would have done so, and it's not simple pain that's going to make people incriminate themselves, that's something people do to avoid pain. So shopping your neighbors randomly to the ISB may just result in them realizing you're wasting ISB time.

Why would Leia throw away the option of using Dantooine when she could delay by not saying anything? She would lose her option to use it later—as she actually does in the movie, albeit to no avail.

[NecronLord]

Why would Leia throw away the option of using Dantooine when she could delay by not saying anything? She would lose her option to use it later—as she actually does in the movie, albeit to no avail.

And yet, she doesn't try and make up any story, nor does Kanan, they just remain silent.

The ISB may not be above using conventional torture, but note that Kallus, the ISB agent, doesn't suggest using torture, he simply plans to keep on having the droid hover around him waving its limbs at him, then the Inquisitor comes in and steps up to use of pain.

John Q Public, Purple's neighbor is not going to rate an Inquisitor. The ISB will just use droids, if they want to investigate the supposed sedition, and then when they find out that Purp's just shopping random people, that's the end of Purple. (This incidentally, makes the ISB far more effective than it looks.)

[Adam Reynolds]

As shown above, Tarkin and Kallus can operate the mind probe, so force sensitivity is not required.

It also indicates that Force sensitivity helps one resist its effects. Which was largely my original point.

It makes sense that the Empire would have sophisticated interrogation devices that don't require Sith Lords, but the fact that mind probes can be used without Force abilities doesn't mean that Vader wasn't using both.

And yet, she doesn't try and make up any story, nor does Kanan, they just remain silent.

That actually makes sense as a resistance strategy, especially if you are Force sensitive and thus able to resist effectively.

[Darth Holbytlan]

Why would Leia throw away the option of using Dantooine when she could delay by not saying anything? She would lose her option to use it later—as she actually does in the movie, albeit to no avail.

And yet, she doesn't try and make up any story, nor does Kanan, they just remain silent.

Why would she or Kanan do that when they can remain silent? Your argument rests on the notion that lying is so obviously superior that no one would do otherwise unless prevented. But there are plenty of reasons someone might prefer to stay silent. For example, they might think that lying after staying silent as long as possible would make them more believable by making it look like they've broken. Or they might fear giving away useful information through poorly chosen lies. In fact, Leia's lie about Dantooine did give away an old rebel hideout; if some useful tidbit of information had been found there (perhaps something accidentally left behind) it could have damaged the rebellion.

[Prometheus Unbound]

You'd think that would have tipped Vader off to her being Force sensitive if it were the case.

Not necessarily. Palpatine was easily able to resist the Jedi without them realizing his Force abilities. As for Leia, is is likely he just assumed that she was strong willed. Vader was able to detect Luke's presence in the Force because he was using it actively.

Additionally I would argue that Darth Vader's force powers were actually waning during the events of ANH. It is interesting that he lacks the clairvoyance to find the Rebels hidden fortress when he is easily able to confirm that the Rebels are hiding on Hoth. There are three possibilities that come to mind. The first is that the military sucess of the Rebel Alliance led to a slightly lighter Force presence in the galaxy. The second is that the remergence of Obi-Wan had a role and the third is that it was due to the fact that Luke and Leia were beginning to discover their abilities. While Leia was not directly learning her abilities, she was likely using them passively to resist Darth Vader.

It is likely that all three factors had a role. Though the fact that Vader appeared back on top of things in ESB indicates that Obi-Wan and the Rebel Alliance presence were dominating factors. Once the Rebel Alliance goes on the run and Obi-Wan is killed, it appears that Vader is more able to see again.

In the PT, wasn't the dark side "shrouding" the Jedi?

In ANH, as far as they knew, there were no Jedi left - Palps may have dialed down the shrouding as he didn't need to shroud half a galaxy's worth of Jedi from his existence any more. Basically he got complacement. After it was revealed Obi-wan was alive and Luke was in training, they dialed it back up again?

[NecronLord]

It also indicates that Force sensitivity helps one resist its effects. Which was largely my original point.

It makes sense that the Empire would have sophisticated interrogation devices that don't require Sith Lords, but the fact that mind probes can be used without Force abilities doesn't mean that Vader wasn't using both.

We're digressing from the original point, which is that Joe Q Public who Purp plans to sell out to the Empire is not force sensitive, and presumably cannot resist the mind probe. And then the ISB realize that Purp knows nothing of value and is wasting ISB money and time.

[NecronLord]

Why would Leia throw away the option of using Dantooine when she could delay by not saying anything? She would lose her option to use it later—as she actually does in the movie, albeit to no avail.

And yet, she doesn't try and make up any story, nor does Kanan, they just remain silent.

Why would she or Kanan do that when they can remain silent? Your argument rests on the notion that lying is so obviously superior that no one would do otherwise unless prevented. But there are plenty of reasons someone might prefer to stay silent. For example, they might think that lying after staying silent as long as possible would make them more believable by making it look like they've broken. Or they might fear giving away useful information through poorly chosen lies. In fact, Leia's lie about Dantooine did give away an old rebel hideout; if some useful tidbit of information had been found there (perhaps something accidentally left behind) it could have damaged the rebellion.

There's actually limited reason to believe that the sith have foresight of any sort. Given that "The Jedi use the force for knowledge and defence" it's entirely possible the Jedi are just superior in this respect. Palpatine talks about how he has forseen things, and he has sensed this or that, but in terms of tactical data, we see the Jedi Council and Anakin trace an individual fugitive in one episode of the clone wars, something Vader obviously cannot do (or he would not require Boba Fett).

It's quite possible that your ability to scry is severely diminished when you turn to the dark side. Certainly there's canon evidence of four Jedi including 3 masters being better at it than the known sith lords, at least.

[Darth Holbytlan]

Huh? I said absolutely nothing about sith foresight here and I have no idea why you think it is relevant.

[Simon_Jester]

It also indicates that Force sensitivity helps one resist its effects. Which was largely my original point.

It makes sense that the Empire would have sophisticated interrogation devices that don't require Sith Lords, but the fact that mind probes can be used without Force abilities doesn't mean that Vader wasn't using both.

We're digressing from the original point, which is that Joe Q Public who Purp plans to sell out to the Empire is not force sensitive, and presumably cannot resist the mind probe. And then the ISB realize that Purp knows nothing of value and is wasting ISB money and time.

For that matter, even if I were somehow Force sensitive, if I genuinely knew nothing whatsoever of any use to the ISB and had no actual intention of overthrowing them...

...I'd probably cooperate fully with the mind probe, just so I can get back at that little shit who denounced me to the secret police.

[NecronLord]

Huh? I said absolutely nothing about sith foresight here and I have no idea why you think it is relevant.

Quite right, I quoted the wrong post there. That was directed at Adam Reynolds, who was talking about Vader's lack of clairvoyance. My apologies.

[Darth Holbytlan]

Ah, OK. Carry on, then.