Moderator: NecronLord
How can you be sure of that? A vehicle-scale weapon that fires thousands of rounds a minute isn't the easiest thing to dodge while it's virtually hosing the area with bullets.nfact if he would have been in the room in Matrix the first movie, he would have easily dodged the minigun rounds,
Ok, you are right, I will make it more clearSpanky The Dolphin wrote:How can you be sure of that? A vehicle-scale weapon that fires thousands of rounds a minute isn't the easiest thing to dodge while it's virtually hosing the area with bullets.nfact if he would have been in the room in Matrix the first movie, he would have easily dodged the minigun rounds,
Your statement reeks of subjectiveness...
Exactly. Distance is not the most important factor, the rate of fire is. It's one thing to be able to dodge a single projectile at point blank range, but it's totally different when you have to dodge at least 20 times that amount of projectiles in the same time frame as the Glock fires one round. It's the fact that there are so many rounds being sprayed that it quickly becomes almost impossible to dodge to anywhere because the entire area around you is going to be hit with bullets. There are no safespots.Death from the Sea wrote:but the Glock does not fire at anywhere near the same rate as the mini-gun. The cyclic rates are way different. Besides Smith and the other agents were trying to return fire instead of dodging bullets.
I just watched the movie last night again,SylasGaunt wrote:Look at the hammering the smith clones took in Reloaded and compare it to how much the current Agents held up. EtM isn't the only source I'm using for that.Illuminatus Primus wrote:[
Game mechanics blow for analysis.
My brother recalls one getting hit with the lamp post and falling to bits in mid-air.Omega-13 wrote:I just watched the movie last night again,SylasGaunt wrote:Look at the hammering the smith clones took in Reloaded and compare it to how much the current Agents held up. EtM isn't the only source I'm using for that.Illuminatus Primus wrote:[
Game mechanics blow for analysis.
Neo flew away about 3 seconds after he kicked an Agent into a lightpost,
we didn't see the agents dead, and we didn't see a flash of light when they died (like we saw in the first movie) so it is easy to see that they didn't die, they were just stunned and getting up
No, what they're saying is that Thompson (I'll just assume that's his name) only ever has to worry about one thing: where is Morpheus aiming right now? Every bullet Morpheus fires will be gone and irrelevent to where the next bullet is. The point is that Thompson may not be dodging the bullets after they're fired, he just isn't in the same place that they're going to wind up. The Agents in the minigun incident had to worry about not being in the way of a whole lot more bullets. It doesn't matter that they take longer to hit after they're fired, what matters is that they needed to dodge a bullet every .02 seconds.Omega-13 wrote:lol, ok guys you really missed that one
Ok, it took the bullet from Morphs gun, 2 miliseconds to reach the Agent, he dodged it
It took 20 miliseconds for the minigun round to get to the agents in Matrix in the skyscrapper.
Each bullet was 60 feet apart, and each bullet came every 20 miliseconds,
SO!
Just to draw you a picture here, 1 bullet goes by, the next one is coming in 20 milliseconds, THE ENTIRE ROOM isn't filled like a spiderweb, they have 20 miliseconds to dodge EACH bullet, and they coudln't, Johnson or thompson (not sure which it was) dodged a bullet in 2 miliseconds, who is faster?
Oh good grief, so now bullets fired from a precision Machine gun , automatically cover a huge area do they? It's a Minigun, not a shotgun! To put it another way, the stream of bullets can be seen as a long pole (and we'll say the pole reaches from the gun barrel to the far wall), whereever this pole goes is where the constant stream of bullets will land. To dodge them you simply go under or over the pole - end of problem, as long as you move faster than th pole can be reorientated, you'll never get hit.Sriad wrote:No, what they're saying is that Thompson (I'll just assume that's his name) only ever has to worry about one thing: where is Morpheus aiming right now? Every bullet Morpheus fires will be gone and irrelevent to where the next bullet is. The point is that Thompson may not be dodging the bullets after they're fired, he just isn't in the same place that they're going to wind up. The Agents in the minigun incident had to worry about not being in the way of a whole lot more bullets. It doesn't matter that they take longer to hit after they're fired, what matters is that they needed to dodge a bullet every .02 seconds.Omega-13 wrote:lol, ok guys you really missed that one
Ok, it took the bullet from Morphs gun, 2 miliseconds to reach the Agent, he dodged it
It took 20 miliseconds for the minigun round to get to the agents in Matrix in the skyscrapper.
Each bullet was 60 feet apart, and each bullet came every 20 miliseconds,
SO!
Just to draw you a picture here, 1 bullet goes by, the next one is coming in 20 milliseconds, THE ENTIRE ROOM isn't filled like a spiderweb, they have 20 miliseconds to dodge EACH bullet, and they coudln't, Johnson or thompson (not sure which it was) dodged a bullet in 2 miliseconds, who is faster?
I don't know what the rate of fire on Morpheus' Glock was, maybe you're right if it's high enough. You said muzzle velocity was 1500 ft/sec I think. But yea, my POV is that what's important is that what's important is how often the Agent needs to dodge a bullet, maybe Thompson only had to dodge one every .09 seconds or so?
Don't get your panties in a bind sir, I am not a mental midget of the type you seem to assume you're dealing with. Your assumption that I'm talking about a "web of bullets" shows that you don't understand my point. You don't need to cover the WHOLE ROOM, only the portion of the room that the Agents can move to. What needs to happen is you need to make sure that a bullet will pass through a space that you know the agent will be occupying, to hit them all that needed to be done was shoot so that the place where they sidestepped to would have a bullet in it by the time they got there... oh what's the fucking point? It's late and I need to stop typing.Rob Wilson wrote:Oh good grief, so now bullets fired from a precision Machine gun , automatically cover a huge area do they? It's a Minigun, not a shotgun! To put it another way, the stream of bullets can be seen as a long pole (and we'll say the pole reaches from the gun barrel to the far wall), whereever this pole goes is where the constant stream of bullets will land. To dodge them you simply go under or over the pole - end of problem, as long as you move faster than th pole can be reorientated, you'll never get hit.
This talk of a web of bullets and covering the hole room at once shows how little you understand what's actually happening here. To dodge all they had to do was duck or sidestep.
The web-o-bullets part was in reference to Spanky's post, and again how can you hit them when all they have to do is duck, jump or sidestep (they are dodging bullets - they are moving faster than you can traverse the gun). The only way to hit them is if they are too slow to move out the way of your traverse and therefore as slow as Omega-13 was saying.Sriad wrote: Don't get your panties in a bind sir, I am not a mental midget of the type you seem to assume you're dealing with. Your assumption that I'm talking about a "web of bullets" shows that you don't understand my point. You don't need to cover the WHOLE ROOM, only the portion of the room that the Agents can move to. What needs to happen is you need to make sure that a bullet will pass through a space that you know the agent will be occupying, to hit them all that needed to be done was shoot so that the place where they sidestepped to would have a bullet in it by the time they got there... oh what's the fucking point? It's late and I need to stop typing.
...I completely agree with you the Agents being play-balanced though.
One quick question. In an FMV sequence of Enter the Matrix, Ballard seemed to be able to match Seraph hit for hit. Does that indicate that even Seraph's combat routines are scaled to the opponent's?Rob Wilson wrote:Actually, on the Agents abilities, does anyone else think they are play balanced? Strong enough to be unbeatable by normal humans despite inbuilt imperfections, but not enough to take on the One.
-snip
I think the only unfettered Agent we've seen is the guy in white protecting the Oracle. He matched Neo with no problems, perhaps he is analogous to a Firewall ensuring that only the correct things are allowed near the Oracle, so there are no restrictions on him.
I take it Seraph is the guy in white, in which case did this Ballard beat Seraph, or did it end in a stalemate as Seraph tests him (like Neo).Lord of the Farce wrote:One quick question. In an FMV sequence of Enter the Matrix, Ballard seemed to be able to match Seraph hit for hit. Does that indicate that even Seraph's combat routines are scaled to the opponent's?Rob Wilson wrote:
I think the only unfettered Agent we've seen is the guy in white protecting the Oracle. He matched Neo with no problems, perhaps he is analogous to a Firewall ensuring that only the correct things are allowed near the Oracle, so there are no restrictions on him.
Ballard managed to land a few good ones, but Seraph stopped the fight before it went for long. And judging from Ballard saying "The only thing you know about me is that I was about to kick your ass", it was still pretty inconclusive... *shrug*Rob Wilson wrote:I take it Seraph is the guy in white, in which case did this Ballard beat Seraph, or did it end in a stalemate as Seraph tests him (like Neo).
If Seraph stopped the fight, I'm going to go with him only puting out enough to test Ballard. To stretch my Play balance analogy some more, it's like a computer that will keep rampng up the difficulty level until it finds your level. I doubt Seraph was ever worried about a normal human, it might be different if he met a rogue programme, no need to test levels, just kill the thing before it can threaten his protectee.Lord of the Farce wrote:Ballard managed to land a few good ones, but Seraph stopped the fight before it went for long. And judging from Ballard saying "The only thing you know about me is that I was about to kick your ass", it was still pretty inconclusive... *shrug*Rob Wilson wrote:I take it Seraph is the guy in white, in which case did this Ballard beat Seraph, or did it end in a stalemate as Seraph tests him (like Neo).
Do not forget, they were also much stronger, when Neo said "agents are coming' the reinforced steel door deformed several inches, and knuckle marks were scene from the Agent. Later the roof of the car was ripped off with a simple back hand. In the first film, it took smith a few seconds to get Morphs hands off his neck, so I don't think Morph is as strong as thompson or johnson...Either way, the Agents in Matrix reloaded were much faster (they could dodge bullets at pointblank range, they could almost land a blow on Neo and they were confident enough in their new abilities to take him on at the beginning despite knowing that he could beat the older version from the first film.).
Well that fucking sucks and blows at the same time, Smith is supposed to be best.Omega-13 wrote:Sorry man, maybe his acting and character but not abilities,Shroom Man 777 wrote:HEY!!! SMITH IS NOT WEAK!!! HE PWNS OTHER AGENTS!!!!
He even assimilated Thompson, right?
Smith is still superior.
I just saw the matrix reloaded again tonight,
he is sub par to other agents
Smith isn't an Agent anymore.His Divine Shadow wrote:Well that fucking sucks and blows at the same time, Smith is supposed to be best.Omega-13 wrote:Sorry man, maybe his acting and character but not abilities,Shroom Man 777 wrote:HEY!!! SMITH IS NOT WEAK!!! HE PWNS OTHER AGENTS!!!!
He even assimilated Thompson, right?
Smith is still superior.
I just saw the matrix reloaded again tonight,
he is sub par to other agents
