The Imperium vs The Empire

Tatterdemalion · Post by **Tatterdemalion** » 2002-09-17 11:08am

Hey, for the purposes of this argument are the Imperium still trying to stave off constant threats from all sides (ie. Tyranids, Chaos cults, Chaos marines, Tau, Orcs etc.) Or are we assuming that the FULL might of the Imperium's military is directed solely at the Empire (since normally the Imperium wouldn't be able to use it's full power as it would be preoccupied with various other matters.)

I'm just asking because if it's the latter the Imperium simply outnumber the Empire. (Since the Imperium must expend what, tens of thousands of guardsmen every day, imagine what sort of hordes the Imperium could bring to bear if they didn't have to worry about chaos, xenos and the gazillion other threats the Imperium face daily.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-09-18 04:15am

How do you figure the Imperium outnumbers the Empire? Compnor alone has trillions of members, the Star Wars galaxy is larger, and the Empire controls a much greater percentage of it than the Imperium does of the Milky Way

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-18 11:39am

A single hive world has trillions of inhabitants. the numbers for the imperial guard are uncountable billions (this is english billions by the way 1,000,000,000,000)

Adam · Post by **Adam** » 2002-09-18 01:03pm

Another factor might be how experienced are the Empires forces?

They certainly aren't used to fighting enemies that have the same numbers and firepower as them. The last fight they had against equal forces was the clone wars (probably) and that was over 20 years ago. Your average storm trooper may be wall trained but how many large scale battles will he have undergone?

Imperial forces on the other hand are used to fighting against large numbers of enemies. Your average imperial guardsman may be fighting in his first battle but a large number of them will have fought at least one previous campaign as for marines who probably spend most of their lives being feried from one battle to another.

It seems to me that the Imperium defently wins out on the experience side.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2002-09-18 03:13pm

Indeed....the Imperium is used to fighting on many fronts against many different enemies at the same time...

The Imperial Guard is literally uncountable...plus you can add planetary defense forces...Adeptus Arbites (think of the Judges from 2000AD)...Adeptus Soritas (basically warrior nuns) the Titan Legions...oh my...

The only thing going against them is that their warp travel is very unpredictable...

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-09-18 04:17pm

Generally, life as a guardsman sucks because as soon as you finish one campaign (some of which entail years of fighting) you get sent off to another one.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-09-18 10:46pm

SylasGaunt wrote:Generally, life as a guardsman sucks because as soon as you finish one campaign (some of which entail years of fighting) you get sent off to another one.

Ahh but once in a blue moon a regiment gets too settle a planet, after the previous owner's have been, erm permanetly resettled... well okay killed off. and then yoiu get a nice big farm, or more depending on your rank. Oh and you can pray to find an STC, thats govership of a planet status for you straight away. (Even if all it does is make better combat knifes)

Hive Worlds... hmm got too love fact that each city on one has the equivalent population of say Modern Earth living in them.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-09-19 01:44am

Or at the very least a nice chunk of it.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-09-19 03:54am

And then orcs, or chaos marines, or tyranids, or dark eldar wipe your little settlement off the face of the galaxy, because the only reason you were allowed to settle was to create a speed bump, and distract attention away from important worlds

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-09-19 06:52pm

consequences wrote:And then orcs, or chaos marines, or tyranids, or dark eldar wipe your little settlement off the face of the galaxy, because the only reason you were allowed to settle was to create a speed bump, and distract attention away from important worlds

[Voice from shadows] Shh they may hear you... too late
[Inquistor Mode]Arbites take this heretic away, the charge is spreading falshoods to undermine the Moral of his Divine Emporer's Imperial Guard. The sentence is level 5 through 8 torture for two weeks and then execution, method to be determined by tribunal[/i]

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-09-22 06:08am

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the Imperial Inquisition.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-09-22 01:16pm

May i suggest arco-flagellation? In fact this may carry over into my fanfic ... hmmmmm.... consequences the arco-flagellent

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-09-22 10:06pm

consequences wrote:Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the Imperial Inquisition.

No One expects the Imperial Inquistion, Our main weapon is Surprise, Surprise and fear.. hang on
Our two main weapons are... [Etc]

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-09-22 11:06pm

To get back on topic, who cares who wins, apparantly the Necrons will stomp over both sides equally easily. More evil than the Dark Eldar, more powerful than a self-insertion character in a fanfic, I think GW has managed to surgically remove all of the joy I used to get out of 40k.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-09-23 12:56am

The Necron's are strong yes, but they have weaknesses.. well maybe the wrong word, their exists weapons to defeat them. Vaul made a few, The Blackstone Fortresses, that Abaddon used are examples of it. (This is the power Abaddon never realised it beheld, the power to kill a C'Tan permanetly...) They where defeated/driven off once before, and the strongest C'tan is dead. Plus Psychic Powers seem to be an issue. At last we see why the Old ones made species with Psychic powers, even through it opened them to the Warp... But this is all off topic... Eldar wipe the Empire out

(Okay maybe not...)

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-09-23 05:37am

Neko_Oni wrote:About the Inquisitor Terminator, if you go purely by the rules Terminators get a 5+ save against EVERYTHING.

However in reality Termie Armour probably wouldn't help (I've never seen a Lightsabre so much as slow down when cutting through something).

I have. Against Vader's armor, against battle droids, and most especially against the blast doors seen in TPM.

BUT Inquisitor's usually have some kind of personal force field don't they?

It does seem that on the whole the Empire is simply not big enough (at least from the movies and the books I've read), the Imperium is used to fighting century long wars on thousands of fronts at the same time. Also their ships are HUGE, they consider space fighters to be things with crews of 5 or 6 the size of 747's.

On the other hand, they're used to thinking strategically. Their fleet battles are coordinated campaigns, not lightning strikes. I don't know if they would expect such a speed problem (if your drive is unpredictable, you have an effective speed disadvantage, because you can't plan coordinated fleet action until all units are in position), but I expect it would open up possibilities for the Empire.

Anyway there's my little rant. BTW I'm not a rabid fan of any 40K I just think that the Empire is honestly outclassed here.

It is. On the other hand, I think the Empire could eventually wear down a battle barge or two, if these came alone. They'd lose a few fleets, but they'd eventually make it.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-23 07:09am

We have our weaknesses, *&%£$* £***@^ ($^$& L^ !!!!!!

Neko_Oni · Post by **Neko_Oni** » 2002-09-23 10:23am

I have. Against Vader's armor, against battle droids, and most especially against the blast doors seen in TPM.

oh yeah, duh! amazing the things i forget about.

On the other hand, they're used to thinking strategically. Their fleet battles are coordinated campaigns, not lightning strikes. I don't know if they would expect such a speed problem (if your drive is unpredictable, you have an effective speed disadvantage, because you can't plan coordinated fleet action until all units are in position), but I expect it would open up possibilities for the Empire.

I see your point, the books describe the Imperium as a huge but immensely ponderous organisation. It could take years before the Imperium even mobilises it forces against the GE (depending on how much damage the GE forces are doing).
[/quote]

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2002-09-23 11:46am

Ater reading huge amounts of books & stuff Iv come to the conclusion that while the Imprium can be VERY slow at reacting to some things...at other times it can a very rapid response time...

It just depends on a variety of different factors...

such as whats stationed in the area at the time...warp storms, etc...

Tatterdemalion · Post by **Tatterdemalion** » 2002-09-23 12:42pm

Well it depends... in an all out battle the Imperium would still beat the necrons by shear numbers, even though the losses would be great. (Necron attacks are still rare in the 40k universe to my knowledge, and the fact that necrons flee when taking too many casualties can be taken to mean that they don't have the resources to replace them too easily.)

Plus there's Chaos. As it stands right now chaos basicly have several inpenetrable strongholds throughout the galaxy (ie. the Eye of Terror and The Maelstrom) Again, in an outright battle Chaos could crush the Necrons, the C'tan are simply too weak too take on the chaos gods/demon primarchs and other nasties chaos has at its diposal.

While the Necrons do have superior everything to the other races they're still much weaker than everyone seems to think, at least that's how I see it.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-09-23 04:15pm

Neko_Oni wrote: oh yeah, duh! amazing the things i forget about.

Don't sell yourself short... you've got Largo and Ping-chan to worry about, I expect. ^_^

I see your point, the books describe the Imperium as a huge but immensely ponderous organisation. It could take years before the Imperium even mobilises it forces against the GE (depending on how much damage the GE forces are doing).

Indeed. OTOH, though, I believe the GE is doomed in a no-holds-barred fight against the Empire.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-09-23 06:07pm

In the second ed rules the best way to get rid of Necrons was:

1+ Rhinos with rambars (or equivalent)
Charge straight through Necrons, with Iniativew 2 they were ulikely to get out of the way.
CRUNCH.
Repeat

The Rhino probably wont last long when the scarabs get to it but you can take out a big chunk at the start of the game. And that goes towards the all impoortant casulty limit at which Necrons withdraw.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-09-24 06:01pm

My first thread bump.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2002-10-24 07:24pm

Note regarding imperium shp sizes. The ghostmaker novel stated that they have ships 20km long.
Also since the titan legions are transported by ships, they have to to be capable of buliding them at least big enough to carry a group of them.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-25 08:14am

Lost Soal wrote:Note regarding imperium shp sizes. The ghostmaker novel stated that they have ships 20km long.
Also since the titan legions are transported by ships, they have to to be capable of buliding them at least big enough to carry a group of them.

I think those ships are not the actual warships though, more likely they were Adeptus Mechanicus vessels or dedicated troop transports.

theres vastly more evidence to put the cap on the actual Warships as around 10km give or take a few.

It could take years before the Imperium even mobilises it forces against the GE (depending on how much damage the GE forces are doing).

True, but that would depend, Astropaths and psykers are well able to predict largescale invasions.

An example of a hasty response to an invading force would be the attack of HF:Behemoth, 200+ capital ships were dispatched to take on the Nids in a hasty counter-attack.

On the subject of Terminators versus Lightsaber wielding Jedi...

Assuming the Sabers cut through the armour, which might I add is vastly superior to just about every armour bar quantum crystalline armour in SW, then they have to kill the Space Marine inside...

Space marines are rather hard as you might know, its extremely difficult to kill them...I take a prime example Iron Warriors General Forrix.

Submerged in human instakill toxic waste, without a helmet(it got blown off)

Impaled TWICE by Powerswords...and I mean impaled, they stuck out of his friggin back!! this neatly removed his lungs and his heart.

multiple closerange bolter wounds, including bolter rounds exploding within his armour...all it did was crack his sternum...

hit by a plasma gun at point range.

This was during a fight in which he killed around TEN SPACEMARINES in close combat, all assualt armed marines. readign the text, he didnt move slowly, he moved just as fast as the opposing marines, if not faster, and this is with a powerfist

Yoda or Windu, someone like that could kill a termy..

your average jedi is gonna get stomped into the ground..or blown away.[/quote]

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