B-tech Vs gundum

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-03 11:17pm

Dark Hellion wrote:The beam on a GM sniper can vaporize 9tons of armor in almost a second. Thats a weapon that does 1440 damage a second.

What? Where'd you get those stats?

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2002-10-03 11:27pm

Spanky, I got it from the last episode of 08th ms team. The Gm sniper shots the main character's (forgot his name) gundam. It melts about a 1.5m by 1m by 1m hole in the armor(scaled approximately from the people in the gundam). If the armor is the same density as steel thats 10500 kg. I just made it 9000 kg to give the benifit of the doubt. Suffice to say, that is a powerful weapon.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-03 11:34pm

I see.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-10-04 12:32am

Vejut wrote:To Sylas: As I said, I got it from the space game: The SAME GR used on fighters and mechs (does same damage in atmospheric combat when fired from a fighter, and when fired from a mech clinging to a warship's hull), can go a damn long way in 10 seconds--much closer to Mach 40 than mach 2--this is based on the GAME, not the novels. Even assuming that they have crap areodynamics and that when you enter atmosphere the shorter ground ranges actually are all it's capable of, it's still moving like ~mach 5, and gives you about 500 MJ. If you'd like, I can show you the calculations. And again, somewhere on this Other Sci-Fi board, Sir Nitram and Darth ??? (too many Darths on this board...) both ran the calcs, and got the roughly the same answer. The novel is contradicted by the game, and the novel is based on the game--the novel is wrong. Granted, this makes the BT authors guilty of a fairly big slipup in their tech stuff, but thats still what the game shows.

There's something screwy with your calcs then because even going to mach 5 I'm still only getting around 135 mJ.

Of course if you want to stick to in-game only, I ran a little search over at spacebattles and found an interesting quote.

"Most pilots consider the Crab's armor protection acceptable, though the replacement of it's composite armor with the homogenous steel now used..."

From the 3025 technical readout.

Then of course there's also the fact their armor can be damaged by falling over, or the Death from Above numbers where a 100-ton mech falling 12 meters does twice the damage of a gauss rifle.

Assuming it was falling at 12 m/s (despite gravity being 9.8 m/s), that's 240 kilojoules per damage point, which would make a Gauss rifle weaker than a modern tank gun. (compared to the Zeon's normal tank gun which throws its projectile at something like Mach 17)

And even you admit you can beat a newtype without being one, and there are some damn good pilots in BT (like a good portion of the clan front line, for instance...) Finally, what makes you think the BT pilots would be at a disadvantage in a low-sensor range environment? It's what they're normally in, as evidenced by the fact that alot of the targeting problems go away once you're in space, where sheer range and volume to be covered tends to defeat ECM...

Except ECM is never, to my knowledge, put down as the reason their engagement ranges are so short.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-10-04 02:04am

The Gouf flight unit(seen in 08th ms team)would make thebters mouths fall open in shock.thgis is a Gouf unit that can fly and is moderately well armed

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-04 02:45am

You mean the MS-07H8 Gouf Flight Type. It's not really that remarkable.

MAHQ:

Unfortunately, the H8 still suffered some of the same problems encountered by previous versions: engine overheating and rapid fuel consumption at high altitudes and high speeds, limiting its range and flight time.

The MS-09 Dom is actually more impressive.

Propulsion: "ground effect" hover jet thrusters: 58200 kg total
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.71 G; maximum ground running speed 90 km/h; maximum ground hovering speed 240 km/h

Just give a Dom a raketen bazooka, and it could take a Battletech unit on with ease. Just use its scatter beam gun, then rush it while blowing the legs and weapon pods off. When it reaches the wreck, finish it off with its heat saber.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-10-04 02:57am

Or go for the suicide Zaku.. I think it would be funny to have an Atlas blast open a Zaku's reactor when it's standing in front of him and his company, I really do

But most MS' are generally more agile than BTech mechs in addition to their greater range (which thye may start planning more for once they realize that BTech mechs aren't spewing out minovsky particles).

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-04 03:00am

Keep in mind that the Zeons could be broadcasting Minovsky particles, though.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-10-04 03:04am

Forget the Minosky particles, The Comstar/word of Blake (Let's turn a Hyperpulse into a ground Weapon) can "Wavemotion Gun" an entire battlefied.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-04 08:21am

And that does exactly...what?

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2002-10-04 12:32pm

My numbers based on the ground stuff may be wrong. However, the space stuff I'm fairly sure of (unless the Hex is a diff size, as I have AT2, not BS). I'll admit that the numbers are all IIRC, and it's possible I entered the wrong thing into the calculator--it is unlikely I did so on the space-bases calcs, however, as I got roughly the same answer as two or three other people who've run them.

And think about it-they can hit something at damn long ranges in space, even with a mech, and a fairly long way even in atmosphere (when an areofighter engages another in atmosphere), yet a mech can only shoot 600-800m max. There has to be a reason. People have even chipped in quotes saying that BT is a high ECM battlefeild. (or rather, that space doesn't have the ECM that the ground does.) Steel or not, this steel is the same stuff used in armor for starships and fighters, where it takes the same amout of damage from a gauss (either mech fired or ship fired) that has to be going the equivalent of mach 40 (if I remember correctly from physics, and mach 1 is 343 m/s)(and I did the math right on the calculator), or 6800*20 m per 10 seconds (long range is 20 hexes, each hex is 6800m long, I think, migt be longer, know it's at least that) to do 15 points standard (mech and fighter scale), or 1.5 capital (really fricking big ship scale). As to why they break so easily in falls, maybe because it's falling from more than 12m/s, in DFAs, more than 12m vertically, and we are talking about something massing around 1000 times as much-now, even this might not explain it, (haven't run the calcs), but it's a start. Any more than that, I don't know--bad rivets?

. BTW, g is a measure of acceleration--9.8 m/(s*s)--velocity when it hits (what you're talking about) is something totally different. That depends on how far you fall, and how areodynamic you are, and if you're putting out any force downwards to counter that.

And transformation into fighter catch them by surprise? If it does, it won't last long--LAMs (land air mechs that do just that) are rare, but they do exist. And so what if they can blow up 9 tons of armor. Is the armor the same strength? Can it take the same amout of energy per ton? for all we know, it could literally be 9 tons of tissue paper. (probably NOT, thats just a stupid exageration, but you don't know that 9 tons of whatever it was, [or rather, the same volume of whatever it was] will be destroyed with the same ease as a mech's 9 tons of armor.)

And where do you get that they only need to move more than 200 km/h? IIRC, hit mods stop going up after around 70-80mph, thats only +4, with jumping, an 12+ to hit--at long range...for an average pilot...that means that at least 1/36 of the mechs shots, even at long range, assuming a dope of a pilot, never mind the clanners in that galaxy you guys are talking about smashing, are going to hit. Now, you could be playing with the optional expanded to-hits (optional means FASA came up with them, bujumping, an 12+ to hit--at long range...for an average pilot...that means t you can't use 'em in tourneys or similar FASA run games...kind of "FASA house rules")

And Bear? Where the HELL did you get that from? I've never heard of that...is it in one of the newer novels? Because I've never heard of an HPG doing anything similar--Jump engines (which they are based on) yes--but not HPG's. I don't think they could do that, because they frequently are in the middle of cities, and the Jump pulse thingy does some heavy damage to everything within 2000m...bit destructive for use in a populated area, no?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-10-04 12:41pm

A Hyperpusle generator is used for FTL communication, and for FTL jumps, the ship based ones can make one or two jumps in a week, and treavel quite a bit. The gaint Communication sats can work fairly constantly broadcasting messages across the galaxy.

In the module "Null Set" it was revialed what happens to any piece of electronic equipment that happens when one of the ground versions are used as a weapon. The Datastream KO's shielded electronics along the path of the of travel, the event horizen of the wormhole however tears the matter to pieces. Slowmoving, but it does, clear a 500' radius area, out to the edge of the atmosphere.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2002-10-04 01:31pm

I've never even heard of Null Set. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist...hmm...
appears there is a module called that--seems a little technobabbly for BT, and a little powerful--not to mention a little dangerous considering most of these HPG's are in the middle of urban centers...and besides, if this was true, why don't we see the HPG's present on clan and ComStar ships used as weapons more often?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-04 01:43pm

Vejut wrote:And think about it-they can hit something at damn long ranges in space, even with a mech, and a fairly long way even in atmosphere (when an areofighter engages another in atmosphere), yet a mech can only shoot 600-800m max. There has to be a reason.

Have you been paying attention? Minovsky Particles broadcasted by mobile suits SCREW THE HELL out of scanners and communications, so all combat is limited to VISUAL ranges. Mech targeting computers would suddenly be USELESS.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-04 01:49pm

Actually, I don't think I've seen evidence that it's the MSs themselves that broadcast the particles. I always thought they were broadcasted by support vehicles, ships, and instilations.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-04 06:13pm

IIRC, the reactor types that MS use produce Min. particles as an unstoppable byproduct of their form of fusion. Dammit, I wish GundamProject.com was still up, I could double-check this!

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-10-04 06:26pm

MSs can, anything with a minovsky fusion reactor can.

And think about it-they can hit something at damn long ranges in space, even with a mech, and a fairly long way even in atmosphere (when an areofighter engages another in atmosphere), yet a mech can only shoot 600-800m max. There has to be a reason. People have even chipped in quotes saying that BT is a high ECM battlefeild. (or rather, that space doesn't have the ECM that the ground does.

I've never seen these quotes and what sources I do have don't seem to bear out that assumption. And the space not having the same ECM makes no sense, because both aerofighters and starships have much more room for ECM (aerofighters as I remember always carry more than a mech of equivalent tonnage).

Steel or not, this steel is the same stuff used in armor for starships and fighters, where it takes the same amout of damage from a gauss (either mech fired or ship fired) that has to be going the equivalent of mach 40 (if I remember correctly from physics, and mach 1 is 343 m/s)(and I did the math right on the calculator), or 6800*20 m per 10 seconds (long range is 20 hexes, each hex is 6800m long, I think, migt be longer, know it's at least that) to do 15 points standard (mech and fighter scale), or 1.5 capital (really fricking big ship scale).

In BTech scale these same hexes are only 30 meters, and Mach 1 is only 295 m/s.

Plus IIRC by the rules even a low kiloton range nuke will take out every mech on the battlefield.

As to why they break so easily in falls, maybe because it's falling from more than 12m/s, in DFAs, more than 12m vertically, and we are talking about something massing around 1000 times as much-now, even this might not explain it, (haven't run the calcs), but it's a start. Any more than that, I don't know--bad rivets? . BTW, g is a measure of acceleration--9.8 m/(s*s)--velocity when it hits (what you're talking about) is something totally different. That depends on how far you fall, and how areodynamic you are, and if you're putting out any force downwards to counter that.

And in a DFA we have a stated height from which the mech is said to land on the other from (2 height levels or 12 meters). And slowing down on the way in using your jump jets would actually make BTech weaker than what the DFA numbers show from just a straight fall.

Then there's also the matter of ramming attacks by mechs.

For example a Mad Dog masses 60 tons and has a top speed of 86.4 kilometers per hour (8 hexes). Now assuming it moved the full 8 hexes we get a grand total of 48 damage (6 points for it's mass, times 8 for the number of hexes moved)

So 60 tons moving at 24 m/s does 48 damage.

30000 x 24^2 = 17280000 joules or 360 kilojoules per damage point which would put a Gauss rifle roughly on par with a modern tank gun. And this is from the actual BATTLETECH rules, not aerotech or battlespace.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-10-04 07:22pm

Because the HPG's are always pointed UP, straight out into space, where the discharge won't hurt anything (Except birds, and anyone who doesn't remember that the area areound an HPG is a no fly zone.

The big limitation on there use, is that

1. Power, The shipboard ones require that you divert all power away from weapons and drives. THe Planet based ones have several reactors just powering IT.

2. Manuverability (You try figuring the Targeting problems on a 2000' wide sat dish.

3. While highly destructive they are too, easy of a target, and firing on someone with one, violates the Lost Tech immunity principal. (You can't fire on an HPG, because they are Lost Tech, however if an HPG fires onto your forces feel free to blow it to hell.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-04 07:54pm

All right, I'm going to try setting up a scenario: A single Galaxy of mechs (80) from Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon are planning to battle an equal number of OYW MS from Zeon and the Fed. Each side has a broad range of firepower, from light to heavy. Each side has six aces: the Gundam has Amuro (NT), Terry Sanders, Kai Shiden, Char Aznable (NT), Ranba Ral, and Dozle Zabi. B-tech fans, pick 6 aces of your choice. The battlefield is a flat plain bordering a city, which prohibits the use of weapons of mass destruction. Each side has one extremely powerful suit for the MS: Gundam. For B-tech, pick one.

Add things, but keep it fair!

Lt. Nebfer · Post by **Lt. Nebfer** » 2002-10-04 08:30pm

sory for replying late but i for got to add some things it durring the 1 year war (so 0083 is out and G wing ect ect) and if you like had more practical wepon rangers for b-tech

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-04 08:32pm

I'm not a B-tech expert. Sorry. I'm just trying to establish some ground rules for the battle. Note that each side has enemies working together, to prevent any kind of "Zeon and Feds start fighing each other" posts.

Note: Each side has several squadrons on fighter support, as well as ground support from tank units and such.

Lt. Nebfer · Post by **Lt. Nebfer** » 2002-10-04 08:38pm

b-tech has a lot more fighteres than gundam

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2002-10-04 10:35pm

Well, more fighters only comes into play when you talk about larger groupings, either if you mean "more men to fight", or "more areospacefighters"

And you do realize a story doesn't HAVE to have an uber-tech--many anime's do I notice (wave-motion gun, Gundam, Lambda Driver, EVA, EVA with postitron cannon, etc.), but it doesn't HAVE to. BT doesn't, unless you count assualt mechs (mech weighing more than 80T), which really aren't that rare, esp. after 3060. Or I guess you could pull some L3 thing (basically, FASA approved house rule representing still-in-development tech, most of which isn't that great, or isn't significantly more powerful enough to be considered uber tech.) out, but most of those except the LAMs (and even some LAMs) are peices of crap.

Aces? hmm...raiding the closet of the dead, you'd be dealing with Adian Pryde (kills mechs in a half-dead timberwolf with only a small laser), Natasha "Black Widow" Kerensky (you see her black Warhammer coming over the hill, you run the other way, cause you are frickin' dead. She's worse with a Daishi--as in worse for the opponent), Morgan Kell (I think I can get away with this as he's allied with Wolf-in-Exile...basically something like #3 on the list of greatest MW who ever lived...he has the power to basically disappear off sensors, and walk through battlefeilds undamaged [at least, until Yoringa Kurtia also got the ability to do this] The two greatest MW are unavailable, as they wouldn't have anything to do with clan wolf), Jamie Wolf, Ulric Kerensky, and maybe Diana (Daughter of Adian, and the only freeborn to ever gain a bloodname. To give you an idea of how hard that is--imagine a society thats been breeding for the ultimate warrior for 300 years, and who trains their warriors from birth in an artificial womb to age 20 in a proccess that results in only a 2-3% graduation rate. If you aren't born to the warriors, you will, at best, get a garrison assignment, assuming you even make it to the warrior caste. So her even getting a front line post in a group that selects leaders, etc. by combat says volumes. Then only 25 people can hold any one bloodname, out of the very large number who are entilited to it. The compitition for it is a vicious series of duels, reducing the feild from several hundred, to 32 competitors, to only one winner. Lets just say that makes her seriously badass.)

Nice open feild? hmm...guess thats required for a fair fight...

and IIRC, a galaxy is not 80 mechs...well, it might be, but only if you had 90-270 areofighters, or (45*25)-(135*25) elementals to make up the difference....well...it could also be if you were using bianaries, instead of trianaries...even then, I'm not sure--the number of areofighters to make up the differnence could be off...thats 15 mechs per trianary, 3 trianary per cluster, and 3-5 clusters per galaxy...there might be 5 trianary to a cluster, as IIRC clans use a base 5 organization. Don't matter, as we are talking even numbers of mechs.

but we're gonna run into the same problems as before: mainly, whoever wins one-on-one is gonna win 80-on-80, esp. on a flat plain with no cover or other real opportunity for tactics (except maybe target choice), etc. the basic problem is, you won't take my argument (BT has some seriously powerful weapons, can probably hit with them, and won't be at a huge disadvantage in H-to-H), and I won't take yours (M-particles make electronics not work [how do Gundams run then?], and so disable B tech targeting computers (or rather, I dispute that they'll kill the targeting computers, esp. since the interfaces described in the novels aren't exactly computer-guided), Gundams to fast to hit, too tough for BT.)

By the way, if a Gauss only has the firepower of a modern tank cannon, and can only shoot at mach 2, why use it instead of the tank guns they already have?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-10-04 11:03pm

Ok ok, here's what I remember (I may be wrong in a few details) about Minovsky Particles from Gundam Project. When they are created in a reactor and then scattered into open air they arrange themsevles in I-fields which are just clusters of MP in with the positive and negative MP forming a sort of invisible "fog" which blocks all radar and radio waves at long distances. This meant that a high manuverable craft needed to be developed for short range combat. Hence, Mobile Suits. They have powerful combat computers which allow the pilot to track, target, and destroy enemy mecha through the cg enhanced cameras. Minovsky Particles can be compressed using I-fields into large neutral particles called Mega Particles which are then used as the ammo for beam gun weapons. Beam sabers are mis-named. They are plasma blades using spare reactor plasma in a magnetic field.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-10-04 11:05pm

Vejut wrote:
By the way, if a Gauss only has the firepower of a modern tank cannon, and can only shoot at mach 2, why use it instead of the tank guns they already have?

Truthfully, because nobody wanted to convert thousands of meters per hex for each attack phase.