Practicality of Mechs

[Kuja]

EVAs demand blood...

Let's throw 'em Darkstar!

[Sea Skimmer]

EVAs demand blood...

Let's throw 'em Darkstar!

They need blood, not pure anti logic, what really flows through the veins of Darkstar.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Two logistical considerations:

Mechanical complexity: To move a knee joint (or worse, a gundam-style sequence of ankle, knee, and hip joints) you need much more complex motors, with many more moving parts. Barring a near-perfect mecha motor design against an awful tank motor design, the tank will always be more reliable, and cheaper/quicker to manufacture.

Fuel consumption: The mech's motors have to do much more work than a tank's. What does a tank do to propel itself? It drives an endless track. A mech must raise the leg, put it up front, set it down at a safe velocity, and repeat repeat repeat. It requires a much more energy-intensive process to move than a tank of equivalent weight, and so it needs more fuel. Tanks are already gas-guzzling bastards, a mecha would be a glutton by comparison.

[VF5SS]

Yeuck, Evas. How could you feed something like that?

Since when have the Evas required food?

Since they met reality!

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What the fuck is that suppost to mean?

[VF5SS]

Ah, nevermind.

[Raxmei]

All those leg joints would be difficult to coordinate and control. By comparison a tank can be steered with a joystick.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well, roughly 90% of all movement is computer controlled for a mobile suit.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Mecha are completely useless. Theyre a waste of technology. look:

If a mecha must lift its armor, that means its motors must be powered constantly (barring locking mechanisms, see below). That means it needs a huge powersource. A tank, which sits on the ground and requires no power source, which means that a tanks armor can be significantly heavier compared to a mechs. The same goes for guns and power.

Ahh, but you can design a mech that can hold up it's own armor with each leg bearing manageable weight loads. Though you'd have to accept a mecha that looked more like a giant spider than a Gundam.

Now, assuming you have locking mechanisms, that means theres some metal thats capable of handling huge forces acting upon it with much ease. If this is so, a tank made of that material is even better then the tank described above.

Not really. Joints only have to withstand forces from specific directions. And usually, they don't have to do this for very long. And standing still, you need locking mechanisims regardless of what vehicle you operate . . . after all, you don't want the vehicle rolling or moving when it should be stationary.

Another thing is, if a mecha has a powersource dense enough to provide lift through motors/pistons in the legs, then that powersource could easilly be place in a helicopter which would be capable of traversing much terrain. Or in a hover tank. Remember, the ability for a heavy mecha to lift itself up using motors or pistons is and even great ability for it to life up using helicopter blades.

Helicopters don't offer the kind of persistent ground presence that ground vehicles do. You need some sort of ground presence. Helicopters can only play support. And hovertanks? A hovertank involves having the technology that can make a tank hover. And the more special technology you use, the more vulnerable to exploits you become. If the enemy uses some sort of minefield that inhibits the hovering action, your hovertanks are sitting ducks. Better to have wheeled/tracked/legged vehicles.

Any mecha can be outclassed by a tank or heli, simply because the technology used in the mecha have much more effect power when used in a tank or heli.

I'm inclined to agree about the tank part. Though a mecha can be used effectively as a psychological terror weapon. But the only practical applications a mecha would have would be multilegged gun platforms, or something along the lines of powered armor, a'la Fallout.

Also, when you fire on a mecha, its prone to falling over. XP

Only certain varieties of mecha. Two legged ones would be especially prone to this. Increase the number of legs, increase the stability . . . only to a point though.

[Howedar]

Ahh, but you can design a mech that can hold up it's own armor with each leg bearing manageable weight loads. Though you'd have to accept a mecha that looked more like a giant spider than a Gundam.

Yes, but due to much higher surface area, you won't be able to to armor a mech very well. Also, the problem is not so much strain on the foot as ground pressure: your coveted mech maneuverability isn't worth a damn when you sink into the ground.

Not really. Joints only have to withstand forces from specific directions. And usually, they don't have to do this for very long. And standing still, you need locking mechanisims regardless of what vehicle you operate . . . after all, you don't want the vehicle rolling or moving when it should be stationary.

There would be continuous and large forces acting on any mech locking pin. Not so for a tank's parking brake.

Helicopters don't offer the kind of persistent ground presence that ground vehicles do. You need some sort of ground presence. Helicopters can only play support.

Yes, the helicopters we can build today. We could build one that could damn near be a flying tank with the power sources we'd need for mechs.

And hovertanks? A hovertank involves having the technology that can make a tank hover. And the more special technology you use, the more vulnerable to exploits you become. If the enemy uses some sort of minefield that inhibits the hovering action, your hovertanks are sitting ducks. Better to have wheeled/tracked/legged vehicles.

Where in your ass did you pull that from? Some kind of super-duper technobabble mines? Have you ever seen a hovercraft by any chance? Care to explain how one would be rendered ineffective besides shooting at the damn thing?

Only certain varieties of mecha. Two legged ones would be especially prone to this. Increase the number of legs, increase the stability . . . only to a point though.

Horray, more complexity! Besides which, when you get to quadropedal or more, exactly what advantages, real or otherwise, might the mech have over the tank?

[Slartibartfast]

Where in your ass did you pull that from? Some kind of super-duper technobabble mines? Have you ever seen a hovercraft by any chance? Care to explain how one would be rendered ineffective besides shooting at the damn thing?

What if I build my base by making grating floor a couple meters above ground? Would the hovercraft generate some amount of lift there? I'm just speculating of course. I don't see how that would work in any random battlefield though.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

hmmm... interesting thread. looks like I am going to have to make a case for mecha -- but not right now, as I have to sleep. I will address this issue tomorrow nite, and rest assured it will be thorough, but may take quite a few posts to really finish -- already I have noted certain weaknesses in the anti-mecha arguments... strengths as well, but no combat vehicle/weapons system is perfect.

see you all tomorrow nite.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Well, if Slartibartfast built his base on grating 2m off the ground... It wouldn't be very effective, would it? Air cushion can't be formed, because air can't be trapped, hovertank simply... stays still.

Then again, if Slartibartfast DID build his base on grating 2m off the ground he would be court-martialled for incompetence. (No offense dude)

[Slartibartfast]

Well I didn't mean foundation and buildings and stuff, just the empty space between them where tanks and people are supposed to move around. Of course that would make my own hovertanks get stuck in the base unless I towed them out

[EmperorMing]

Mechs: No

Grav armour: Yes.

And I am talking grav tanks form Renegade Legion.

[Slartibartfast]

Unless you had mechs cloaked with a SEP field, and have them turn them off just before attacking.

[Sea Skimmer]

A mine with a shaped charge and acoustical sensor or MAD would work just fine against a Hover tank.

Hell we already have mines which bring down helicopters and others that can fire sub munitions several hundred feet in the air to kill which then fire a EFP down at tanks off route.

Building something to deal with a hover tank would be child's play.

[Raxmei]

Hovercraft don't like rough terrain. You can severely limit their usefulness by building your base in the hills. Tanks would probably be a better choice for a land combat platform.

[Sea Skimmer]

What's with all this base building crap? Fortified military bases only get built in either guerrilla war or sometime garrison situations. You'd don't build fortified bases when you facing an army using significant numbers of tanks.

Aside from the fact that such defenses wouldn't be effective, an enemy with significant amounts of armor also tends to have artillery. Unless you have overwhelming air supremacy, in which case dealing with tanks is also simple enough, your base would be swiftly demolished by ranged fire.

[Slartibartfast]

What's with all this base building crap? Fortified military bases only get built in either guerrilla war or sometime garrison situations. You'd don't build fortified bases when you facing an army using significant numbers of tanks.

Aside from the fact that such defenses wouldn't be effective, an enemy with significant amounts of armor also tends to have artillery. Unless you have overwhelming air supremacy, in which case dealing with tanks is also simple enough, your base would be swiftly demolished by ranged fire.

Easy, just build a base and be done with it...

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

When you face an army using significant amount of tanks use large dollops of A-10s and Mavericks followed by MILAN, APILAS and BILL to plug the gap, while applying liberal helpings of AH-64. Baste lightly in a napalm shower and you have Massacre of Tank Assault in Seconds.

And what are these mines that take down helicopters? Are they like mega-fragmentation devices or what?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Helicopters don't offer the kind of persistent ground presence that ground vehicles do. You need some sort of ground presence. Helicopters can only play support.

Yes, the helicopters we can build today. We could build one that could damn near be a flying tank with the power sources we'd need for mechs.

And hovertanks? A hovertank involves having the technology that can make a tank hover. And the more special technology you use, the more vulnerable to exploits you become. If the enemy uses some sort of minefield that inhibits the hovering action, your hovertanks are sitting ducks. Better to have wheeled/tracked/legged vehicles.

Where in your ass did you pull that from? Some kind of super-duper technobabble mines? Have you ever seen a hovercraft by any chance? Care to explain how one would be rendered ineffective besides shooting at the damn thing?

Oh, you're talking conventional hovercraft that ride on a cushion of air. I get it. My point is still valid. A mine goes off inside that skirt and you're looking at a big world of hurt. The problem is even worse if you have Star Wars style repulsor technology. If your enemy has some sort of black box that counters your repulsor field, then you're stuck.

Only certain varieties of mecha. Two legged ones would be especially prone to this. Increase the number of legs, increase the stability . . . only to a point though.

Horray, more complexity! Besides which, when you get to quadropedal or more, exactly what advantages, real or otherwise, might the mech have over the tank?

With modern technology, absolutely none. We can't even build them right now. With more advanced technology, there are some niche applications. But a tracked MBT would probably still be better. And the only advantage a hovering tank would have is it's speed.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Helicopters don't offer the kind of persistent ground presence that ground vehicles do. You need some sort of ground presence. Helicopters can only play support.

Yes, the helicopters we can build today. We could build one that could damn near be a flying tank with the power sources we'd need for mechs.

And hovertanks? A hovertank involves having the technology that can make a tank hover. And the more special technology you use, the more vulnerable to exploits you become. If the enemy uses some sort of minefield that inhibits the hovering action, your hovertanks are sitting ducks. Better to have wheeled/tracked/legged vehicles.

Where in your ass did you pull that from? Some kind of super-duper technobabble mines? Have you ever seen a hovercraft by any chance? Care to explain how one would be rendered ineffective besides shooting at the damn thing?

Oh, you're talking conventional hovercraft that ride on a cushion of air. I get it. My point is still valid. A mine goes off inside that skirt and you're looking at a big world of hurt. The problem is even worse if you have Star Wars style repulsor technology. If your enemy has some sort of black box that counters your repulsor field, then you're stuck.

Horray, more complexity! Besides which, when you get to quadropedal or more, exactly what advantages, real or otherwise, might the mech have over the tank?

With modern technology, absolutely none. We can't even build them right now. With more advanced technology, there are some niche applications. But a tracked MBT would probably still be better. And the only advantage a hovering tank would have is it's speed.

Bah! Stupid quote tags!

[Utsanomiko]

Wait, I think I used the wrong term for 'wire-guided' missiles way back on page 2-3 concerning Gundam. Are you guys reffering to the modern 'fly-by-wire, radio and computer-controlled missiles? 'Cause the ones in Mobile Suit Gundam aren't (and technically can't; Minovsky jamming would screw them up in almost all combat). I used the term 'wire' in the sense that the missiles are physically tethered to the launchers, and have to be guided via this cable.

Just thought i'd clear up what I was talking about. It isn't very relevant at this point.

[Lt. Nebfer]

that woud be a tow missile

how bout a mech the size of the goliath in starcraft(under 40 feet i thisnk)or a At-St(under 30)

I know we cant build one right now but if we coud what roules woud it do