LotR vs. WoT

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-05 05:34pm

D.Turtle wrote:And your idiotic suggestion that a Gholam is only immune to Saidar and Saidin, but not ME magic is similar to idiotic suggestions that SW ships can not survive in ST, because of something (ie. It is part of the premise of a debate that certain things count for both sides...)

Um, no. It is specifically stated that a Gholam is immune to weaves. ME magic does not utilize weaves, thus, it can injure a Gholam.

The Aiel are a warrior society. Almost all of the other countries (except for the Borderlands) had to ally in order to defeat an army of the Aiel (During the first Aiel War).

Which shows that the armies of WoT are understaffed, underfiananced, and underequipped. Sorta why the Seanchan Empire tore through them like a man threshing wheat.

Even Mat Cauthon, the best general in all of WoT (with the experience of hundres of years of war) has at least half again as many casualties as the Aiel do whenever they fought. Show me how a roman Legion could kill 5000 Aiel.

Use the auxilarily picket lines to harry and harass the Aiel and draw off as many warriors as you can. Meet them in a relatively flat area, then have the auxs sweep around and harry them from their flanks. The Aiel can outrun heavily armored warhorses; I doubt they could outrun lightly equipped stallions with javelin-equipped riders. Anyway, continue to dance your auxies until the Aiel are either dispersed so much you can close around and annhilate individual knots, or until they encounter the legion, which is dug in behind some trenches. Let the Aiel advance a bit, hammering them with artillerly, then raise tower shields, toss javelins, and charge, while the auxies close in from behind and harry the flanks.

About the Aiel having no strategy: Did you read the books?! They usually divide their forces into several parts(4 I think, but I don't remember exactly) of which all but one (I think 3) attack the enemy from different directions, while the last (the fourth) waits in reserve in order to exploit any weakness in the enemies front.

That is tactics, not strategy. Strategy involves overall planning, objectives, and logistics, and the Aiel have demonstrated no overall grasp of these concepts. One of the greatest victories of the Roman civil wars was when Caesar defeated an entire enemy legion without once engaging it - he, by keeping sight of his overall goals, was able to cut off the enemy supply lines and win a victory without a battle.

The Aiel are unable to do this. In the Aiel War, the objective was to kill Laman, not to annhilate half of Cairhein! But instead of making for Cairhein straight away, or utilizing these vaunted stealth capabilities, they ravaged the country at random, wasted time sacking towns and villages, and managed to incite half the continent against them.

The Aiel did not lay siege to the Stone of Tear.

I wasn't talking about the Stone. I was talking about the siege of Tar Valon.

The Access Key (A Ter'angreal that allows access to the Choedan Kal from everywhere) for the women's half of the Choedan Kal was melted. The male Access Key is still quite operation

Really? I didn't think it was.

Balefire almost destroyed the whole Pattern! The massive use of balefire during the beginning of the War of the Shadow almost destroyed the whole Universe!

Which is a good reason why it is unlikely that the WoT forces will be using it en masse.

Cyril: You forget that a sufficiently large number of Ashaman can NOT be defeated by ordinary forces ie. forces without magic users. They can simply cast a large shield around them, which stops any and all attempts to get through.

At the same time, it requires them to devote a large portion of their concentration to maintaining this shield, at which point they are ripe targets for some Maiar whoop-ass(this IS First Age LotR)

About the Three Oaths: Did you read the books?! A large subplot is the whole finding out about the effects of the Three Oaths (shortening of ones lifetime for example), and the struggle of Egwene to undo this idocy

Yes...and this changes the fact that the vast majority of Aes Sedai are still bound by these Oaths...how?

Trollocs are a lot bigger than any orcs or Uruk-hai (not to mention Myrdraal...). Some Myrdraal have the ability to "teleport" from shadow to shadow (over large distances).

So? Orcs and Uruk-Hai are superb fighters, where Trollocs can be defeated by farmboys with no combat experience.

Sauron is NOT a match for Shai'tan. Can Sauron change the weather of an entire world?

Perhaps he is not, but Morgoth certainly is.

How do you know that Draghkar can not seduce elves or the like? So far we have not met anything that can resist a Draghkar. (Not even Aes Sedai) I do admit though, that they are not very useful against armies, however they can assassinate important people.

I was thinking that elves were immune to the seduction of the One Ring, and thus a Draghkar's croon- then I realized I was obviously in error, as even Gandalf fears the Ring. However, it is unlikely that Draghkar will be assassinating the Istari anytime soon, given that they are demigods and all.

Ents can be destroyed with mere fire. I would like to see an Ashaman destroy all those nice Ents single-handedly (fireball the Ents. If the yget to close, Travel to the next hill. Rinse and repeat.) Using such Hit-and-run tactics, any army of ME can be defeated easily.

Until the Valar get pissed off an annhilate whatever landmass the Asha'man happen to be standing on. Besides, I said the Ents would butcher the Ogier, not the Asha'man.

?!?!?!
Some support for this statement?

The Maiar are the rough equivalent of demigods. Gandalf, for example, cannot be killed, and even when he is not allowed to use his full power, he can defeat a Balrog.

Also, WoT has the Gray Men (and Women). They are practically invisible. And almost undetectable (Even Al'Lan Mandragoran did not detect them)

Oooh. Assassins. So? The Maiar cannot be killed by them, and the Valar certainly cannot. And they most defininetly are not going to be assassinating dragons anytime soon.

Oger are some of the fiercest warriors ever known. They can hold of masses of Orcs and even Myrdraal are no match against them. Remember: The Ogier Gardeners are a part of the Elite Deathwing guards.

Deathwatch, actually, but it doesn't matter. A dragon merely needs to breath, and they die screaming.

About inland vs ocean. Who says there won't be fighting along coasts? Besides, IIRC, the Senachan are great for fighting onland or off.

The First Age elven armies are likely a match for the imperial armies.

Shara, btw...there is almost no information about Shara's capabilities, so I don't know what to say.

If we just take Third Age LotR, then yes, WoT wins. But First Age, WoT goes down hard.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 06:13pm

Cyril wrote:
About inland vs ocean. Who says there won't be fighting along coasts? Besides, IIRC, the Senachan are great for fighting onland or off.
The First Age elven armies are likely a match for the imperial armies.

Doesn't mean they'll win.

Shara, btw...there is almost no information about Shara's capabilities, so I don't know what to say.

I was wondering if anyone in general had any idea, but I read at one point, they had elephant-like creatures in Shara. I fthat doesn't give you a clue, at least. As well, I heard that the Shara were fierce, and feared by even the Aiel. Who were very powerful. And D. Turtle is right. THey had three legions of one: one form the back, two from the sides, and one from the front. Not to mention the twelve societies, each perfroming different functions in battle (Thunder Walkers announcing battle, Far Dareis Mai -- Maidens of the Spear -- and Stone Dogs scouting, etc.).

If we just take Third Age LotR, then yes, WoT wins. But First Age, WoT goes down hard.

Maybe. I'd like to see the input of others, though.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 06:13pm

Cyril wrote:
About inland vs ocean. Who says there won't be fighting along coasts? Besides, IIRC, the Senachan are great for fighting onland or off.
The First Age elven armies are likely a match for the imperial armies.

Doesn't mean they'll win.

Shara, btw...there is almost no information about Shara's capabilities, so I don't know what to say.

I was wondering if anyone in general had any idea, but I read at one point, they had elephant-like creatures in Shara. I fthat doesn't give you a clue, at least. As well, I heard that the Shara were fierce, and feared by even the Aiel. Who were very powerful. And D. Turtle is right. THey had three legions of one: one form the back, two from the sides, and one from the front. Not to mention the twelve societies, each perfroming different functions in battle (Thunder Walkers announcing battle, Far Dareis Mai -- Maidens of the Spear -- and Stone Dogs scouting, etc.).

If we just take Third Age LotR, then yes, WoT wins. But First Age, WoT goes down hard.

Maybe. I'd like to see the input of others, though.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 06:14pm

Cyril wrote:
About inland vs ocean. Who says there won't be fighting along coasts? Besides, IIRC, the Senachan are great for fighting onland or off.
The First Age elven armies are likely a match for the imperial armies.

Doesn't mean they'll win.

Shara, btw...there is almost no information about Shara's capabilities, so I don't know what to say.

I was wondering if anyone in general had any idea, but I read at one point, they had elephant-like creatures in Shara. I fthat doesn't give you a clue, at least. As well, I heard that the Shara were fierce, and feared by even the Aiel. Who were very powerful. And D. Turtle is right. THey had three legions of one: one form the back, two from the sides, and one from the front. Not to mention the twelve societies, each perfroming different functions in battle (Thunder Walkers announcing battle, Far Dareis Mai -- Maidens of the Spear -- and Stone Dogs scouting, etc.).

If we just take Third Age LotR, then yes, WoT wins. But First Age, WoT goes down hard.

Maybe. I'd like to see the input of others, though.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 06:15pm

Dunno what happened, but my comp was being stupid. Sorry for the multiple posts.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2002-11-05 06:39pm

If we take first age LotR, then it will be a mass-caster frag fest. It isobvious that normal soldiers have no chance against dragons or other demi-gods.

If we take First Age LotR, then it will be a battle between the different Valar and Rand/Ashaman/Aes Sedai/Damane.
That is, if we take "current" WoT. If we take AoL WoT, then of course the Aes Sedai (including men) would join the fight. Then we would have helicpoters and planes fighting for WoT. The soldiers would be equipped with shocklances (whatever they are..., but remember that they were usefuul during a war where both sides used mass-magic).

A lot of WoT is similar to Medieval Europe (especially the armies). However, the Aiel were able to defeat (soundly) oe of the best generals known in WoT, who at that time controlled all of the lands west of the Spine. He did NOT have an underequipped army. He did NOT have an underfinanced army. He did NOT have an underequipped army. He WAS a capable General. And yet, the Aiel defeated him.

About the Siege of Tar Valon. The Aiel could have easily laid waste to Tar Valon, however: They only wanted to achieve their goal: Kill the Treekiller Laman(?). They achieved this goal and went back to the Waste.

Now, one more thing: Yuo say Mordor(Sauron) has millions of orcs. Where do you have this number from? After all, if he had millions of orcs he could have long ago and easily massacred all of ME.

And one other thing: If we are taking First Age LotR, then we can ignore all normal troops, as they will be useless. Then it will only be a magic fight.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 06:45pm

D.Turtle wrote:Then we would have helicpoters and planes fighting for WoT. The soldiers would be equipped with shocklances (whatever they are..., but remember that they were usefuul during a war where both sides used mass-magic).

Off-topic: which books say this? Need to know for an RPG.

A lot of WoT is similar to Medieval Europe (especially the armies). However, the Aiel were able to defeat (soundly) oe of the best generals known in WoT, who at that time controlled all of the lands west of the Spine. He did NOT have an underequipped army. He did NOT have an underfinanced army. He did NOT have an underequipped army. He WAS a capable General. And yet, the Aiel defeated him.

IIRC, Andor, the other region in the Northeast (can't remember name for life of me), and Cairhien had the finest armies during the siege of Cairhien.

About the Siege of Tar Valon. The Aiel could have easily laid waste to Tar Valon, however: They only wanted to achieve their goal: Kill the Treekiller Laman(?). They achieved this goal and went back to the Waste.

Yes, Laman had killed the Tree of Life (that is what it is called, IIRC), and the Aiel sieged Cairhien, thus laying waste to one of the greatest nations in the world, during the Aiel War.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2002-11-05 06:50pm

Off-topic: which books say this? Need to know for an RPG.

That is in different books.

1. In the third book, during Rands trial as Car'a'carn.
2. In one of the late books he has nightmares about the AoL in which these flyers crash, killing hundreds.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 06:52pm

D.Turtle wrote:
Off-topic: which books say this? Need to know for an RPG.
That is in different books.

1. In the third book, during Rands trial as Car'a'carn.
2. In one of the late books he has nightmares about the AoL in which these flyers crash, killing hundreds.

I forgot about that little incident in Rhuiodean. I SO need to catch up on these books...BOTH series....

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-05 07:21pm

Cyril..Illuvator meets the Creator...they nullify each other.

Now we still have Lews Therin, the Chosen...the hundreds of others...and SHAITAN

So please...no God, because it's a cop out...and you know it.

As for all out...I still hold by that the WoT world able to enhance and magnify through circling and what not will crush just about anything short of the demi-gods and even then...that would be the closest.

And if we take the AoL...Tolkien's world/ages fall harder than most rocks off of cliff...we're talking of a time where they did things only the Creator did nearly.

In the end I see nothing in Tolkien's arsenal that is going to so push them over that they can outlast the LEGIONS of Aes Sedai(both Men and Women) with the arsenals they have currently let alone back then

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-05 07:23pm

And thank you D.Turtle...god I have forgotten much...got to read up more...my poor brain.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 07:31pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Cyril..Illuvator meets the Creator...they nullify each other.

I'm going to continuously wonder hoe the HELL I managed to forget the Creator....

Again, thanks for the info.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-05 08:17pm

verilon wrote:
Cyril wrote:
I was wondering if anyone in general had any idea, but I read at one point, they had elephant-like creatures in Shara.

IIRC, the Southrons of Middle-Earth have elephants as well. I'm taking this from playing the old floppy disk computer game, though, so I'm not sure if there's a canon reference to that or not.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-05 08:27pm

The Dark wrote:
verilon wrote:
Cyril wrote:
I was wondering if anyone in general had any idea, but I read at one point, they had elephant-like creatures in Shara.
IIRC, the Southrons of Middle-Earth have elephants as well. I'm taking this from playing the old floppy disk computer game, though, so I'm not sure if there's a canon reference to that or not.

Of course they did. It's in the Two Towers as well. Both they and the Haradrim use elephants in battle.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 08:29pm

IIRC, Shara also took captive a lot of people, and that would thus lead people to be able to kill them (LotR peoples) in a contained space.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-05 08:34pm

veri wrote:Doesn't mean they'll win.

True, but it'll tie up the Empire.

D.T wrote:If we take First Age LotR, then it will be a battle between the different Valar and Rand/Ashaman/Aes Sedai/Damane.
That is, if we take "current" WoT. If we take AoL WoT, then of course the Aes Sedai (including men) would join the fight. Then we would have helicpoters and planes fighting for WoT. The soldiers would be equipped with shocklances (whatever they are..., but remember that they were usefuul during a war where both sides used mass-magic).

But as mighty as the channelers all, they cannot lock away every Valar, if they manage it at all. And, helicopters do precious little against dragons that take out massive mountains when they fall.

D.T wrote:A lot of WoT is similar to Medieval Europe (especially the armies). However, the Aiel were able to defeat (soundly) oe of the best generals known in WoT, who at that time controlled all of the lands west of the Spine. He did NOT have an underequipped army. He did NOT have an underfinanced army. He did NOT have an underequipped army. He WAS a capable General. And yet, the Aiel defeated him.

You are speaking of Artur Hawkwing? Bad analogy.

His forces were fighting in a desert that they were not used to. His forces were using inappropriate tactics, it was not his full force, and the Aiel were fighting in defense of their home and they outnumbered him by several orders of magnitude.

D.T wrote:About the Siege of Tar Valon. The Aiel could have easily laid waste to Tar Valon, however: They only wanted to achieve their goal: Kill the Treekiller Laman(?). They achieved this goal and went back to the Waste.

Prove it. They had no siege equipment whatsoever, and regardless of what Jordon wants you to believe, 'human wave' tactics do not work when you are assaulting a castle.

D.T wrote:Now, one more thing: Yuo say Mordor(Sauron) has millions of orcs. Where do you have this number from? After all, if he had millions of orcs he could have long ago and easily massacred all of ME.

The Dark One has millions of Trollocs; how is it he has not conquered all of Westland? It is because Sauron is held back by the might of Gondor, and he does not want to strike until the time is right and he has the Ring.

D.T wrote:And one other thing: If we are taking First Age LotR, then we can ignore all normal troops, as they will be useless. Then it will only be a magic fight.

And the Valar trounce the WoTers. If they can barely seal a small breach in the Dark One's prison, there is no chance they can seal away a full-power Valar.

Ghost wrote:Cyril..Illuvator meets the Creator...they nullify each other.

Why? We have no evidence of the Creator's power, nor do we know if he actually exists.

Ghost wrote:Now we still have Lews Therin, the Chosen...the hundreds of others...and SHAITAN

Shai'tan is swatted down by Morgoth and/or a combined force of Valar. The Maiar and the Valar and the Dragons and the Balrogs eat Lews Therin, the Chosen, and the hundreds of others for lunch.

Ghost wrote:So please...no God, because it's a cop out...and you know it.

Borderline strawman. Verilon said the channelers could lock him away; I informed him that that assumption was in error. I never said Illuvator would participate.

Ghost wrote:As for all out...I still hold by that the WoT world able to enhance and magnify through circling and what not will crush just about anything short of the demi-gods and even then...that would be the closest.

Bull. It took 100 of the most powerful channelers channeling through angreal and sa'angreal to lock away a small hole in Shai'tan's prison, and even then he was able to devestate them.

Ghost wrote:And if we take the AoL...Tolkien's world/ages fall harder than most rocks off of cliff...we're talking of a time where they did things only the Creator did nearly.

Bull. They made planes and helicopters. We can do that; we still fall very short of Godhood.

Indeed, the AoL still crumples. Can the vaunted AoL, crippled by a surge of Trolloc, withstand hundreds of Balrogs? Dragons that can incinerate cities? Gods? Demigods? Vast elven armies stretching as far as the eye can see?

Ghost wrote:In the end I see nothing in Tolkien's arsenal that is going to so push them over that they can outlast the LEGIONS of Aes Sedai(both Men and Women) with the arsenals they have currently let alone back then

Except for Valar, Maiar, the Rings, Dragons, Balrogs, Nazghul, the elven armies, the dwarven nations, Ents, Olog-Hai...

...and legions? Come on. Less than 1 percent of the population, even in the Age of Legends, could channel.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-11-05 08:37pm

course, a good channeler could handle 100:1 odds, if he was facing nonchannelers.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 08:39pm

Cyril: your argument against the Creator: then how do we know the Pattern exists? How do we know Middle Earth exists? How do we know ANYTHING exists? Do we even know what existance IS?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-05 08:40pm

Oh please...the Creator has as much validity as yours because he's written.

Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt he DOESN'T EXIST...literally you're asking me to prove a being who is said by the AUTHOR to have placed all of this here, and going nu uh.

It's akin to saying in DC comic...God doesn't exist because he doesn't manifest himself every story...as for the rest okay here we go

Yes...only 100...gee out of god knows how many...has Tolkien's world shut off Sauron...what was that?...NO?

As for the Balrogs prove they are any better than the Gholams?

Seriously you accuse us and provide literally your interpretation of said event because you say so. No hard anything except...First age had this and obviously would crush anything AoL had because I SAY SO!!!

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-05 08:50pm

Ghost wrote:Oh please...the Creator has as much validity as yours because he's written.

Oh? Illuvator has half a book devoted to him. The Creator may just be some ficitional character in the WoT world. We've never seen his powers, or heard any description of him, so we can't be sure.

Ghost wrote:Yes...only 100...gee out of god knows how many...has Tolkien's world shut off Sauron...what was that?...NO?

Could it be because Sauron is more powerful than Shaitan, or that perhaps the mechanism for sealing off deities does not exist in the LotRverse? No, it can't be, that would challenge your views, wouldn't it?

Ghost wrote:As for the Balrogs prove they are any better than the Gholams?

There are far more of them, it took a demigod to kill on, they are made of shadow and flame, and they kill very easily.

Ghost wrote:No hard anything except...First age had this and obviously would crush anything AoL had because I SAY SO!!!

First off, the language is English. Learn to use it properly. Second, don't be an obnoxius prick, because nobody likes an obnoxious prick.

Name something that can compete with unfathomably massive dragons.

Name something that can deal with Valar; who are like Greek gods

Name something that can deal with Maiar; who are like demigods

Name something that can deal with Balrogs

Name something that can deal with millions of orcs, elves, humans, and dwarves

Name something that can deal with the Rings of Power

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-05 09:45pm

Cyril wrote:
Ghost wrote:Oh please...the Creator has as much validity as yours because he's written.
Oh? Illuvator has half a book devoted to him. The Creator may just be some ficitional character in the WoT world. We've never seen his powers, or heard any description of him, so we can't be sure.

Just because we can't be sure doesn't make him nonexistant.

Ghost wrote:Yes...only 100...gee out of god knows how many...has Tolkien's world shut off Sauron...what was that?...NO?
Could it be because Sauron is more powerful than Shaitan, or that perhaps the mechanism for sealing off deities does not exist in the LotRverse? No, it can't be, that would challenge your views, wouldn't it?

But is he? Can you prove how? You know, the Aes Sedai can physically bind the LotR'ers...it seems to me that there si generally some sort of movement involved to get thing going in LotR magic.

Ghost wrote:As for the Balrogs prove they are any better than the Gholams?
There are far more of them, it took a demigod to kill one, they are made of shadow and flame, and they kill very easily.
No comment form me...haven't read that far.

Ghost wrote:No hard anything except...First age had this and obviously would crush anything AoL had because I SAY SO!!!
First off, the language is English. Learn to use it properly. Second, don't be an obnoxius prick, because nobody likes an obnoxious prick.
Stop using the ad hominem. No one likes someone to ad hominem. And he was using proper English. Learn to understand it.

Name something that can compete with unfathomably massive dragons.
Any great channeller. Plus the fact that they had planes and helicopters in the AoL.

Name something that can deal with Valar; who are like Greek gods
The Chosen.

Name something that can deal with Maiar; who are like demigods
Again, the Chosen. Or the Asha'man. You said yourself that they are like Death incarnate.

Name something that can deal with Balrogs
Felhounds, Gholam.

Name something that can deal with millions of orcs, elves, humans, and dwarves
Millions of other humans, namely Senachan, Aiel, Aes Sedai, Accepteds, Novices, military forces innumerable, non-miltary peoples, Children of the Light, Ogier...

Name something that can deal with the Rings of Power

Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Wise Ones, angreal, sa'angreal, ter'angreal, damane...

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2002-11-06 07:59am

Let's see. You said:

Which shows that the armies of WoT are understaffed, underfiananced, and underequipped. Sorta why the Seanchan Empire tore through them like a man threshing wheat.

Now. I provided you with an example of an army that was NOT understaffed, underfinanced, under equipped, and not led by an incapable general. You say:

You are speaking of Artur Hawkwing? Bad analogy.
His forces were fighting in a desert that they were not used to. His forces were using inappropriate tactics, it was not his full force, and the Aiel were fighting in defense of their home and they outnumbered him by several orders of magnitude.

First of all: Several ORDERS of AGNITUDE? Do you know what you are saying? Several means at LEAST 2. So you say the Aiel outnumbered Artur Hawkwing at LEAST 100:1 . The Aiel have a total army strength (in the 9th book) in the Lands west of the Spine of around 400-500k . Lets be generous and say that they have that much again in the Waste. That would be 1.000.000. Lets be even more generous and say that around double that many quasi-civilians fought against him. That would be 2 Million. That would mean, that you are saying Artur Hawkwing sent an army of at most 20k into the waste. THAT IS IDIOTIC!
Why?
First of all: Nowhere in the books does it say that the Aiel were hard-pressed by his attack.
Second: It is stated that this was the only campaign in which he was soundly defeated.
Thirdly: It is stated several times that the armies of hundreds of thousands that Rand and the Seanchan have gathered, are the first time SINCE Artur Hawkwing that such numbers have gathered in Randland (the Lands west of the Spine). So he would not send simply a tiny part of an army into the Waste, especially since the Aiel are known for their fighting capabilites.

Next, you say that he sent only a part of his forces. Proof?
You say he used inappropriate tactics. Now where the hell do you have this from?! NOWHERE IN THE SERIES IS ANYTHING MENTIONED ABOUT THE TACTICS THAT ARTUR HAWKWING USED!

Get your FUCKING Facts right!

For example: SHAI'TAN WAS COMPLETELY FREED OF HIS PRISON THAT THE CREATOR HIMSELF PLACED ON HIM. THEY ALSO LOCKED HIM UP AGAIN!

AoL HAS AT LEAST HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HELICPOTERS/PLANES.

One of your "MIGHTY" Dragons was killed by one fucking arrow!

Your IDIOTIC Suggestion that the Istari are IMMUNE to normal Weapons is simply that: IDIOTIC! READ THE FUCKING BOOK "The HOBBIT". In it GANDALF (A fucking Istari), is preparing to be KILLED by some fukcing WOLVES AND GOBLINS!

In one of the books, Rand is told that the Aiel viewed the Aiel War not as a war, but as a hunt for a Thief and Robber (who destroyed an Offshoot of the Tree of Life). They chased him across Randland, and left Randland once he was killed. It is nor their fault that he ran all around Randland to get away from them. And they DID sack a FORTIFIED City. (Almost TWICE, the second time they were stopped by other Aiel).

The Dark One has millions of Trollocs; how is it he has not conquered all of Westland? It is because Sauron is held back by the might of Gondor, and he does not want to strike until the time is right and he has the Ring.

GET YOUR FUCKING THOUGHTS IN ORDER BEFORE WRÍTING.
The Dark one is NOT Sauron ... THINK and THEN write.
AND NAME YOUR FUCKING SOURCE FOR THIS " MILLIONS" of ORCS!
You CANNOT simply say: He has MILLIONS of Orcs, and think that we accept that!
The fact that 7000 Gondorians is all that were able to gather to assault Mordor already shows that it is RIDICULOUS that Sauron has millions of Orcs.

The Creator CREATED (doh) the world. Hence: He is as strong as Illuvator. This is simply a cop-out (similar to the cop-out that Q will destroy the whole Empire.) Where have we seen Illuvator directly interfere in the happenings of ME (after everything was created)?

Sahi'tan is not needed to destroy ME. However, he is more than just a fucking powerful mage... He has influenced the Weather of the entire WORLD. He tainted HALF of the Magic in the whole fucking world.

Show EXAMPLES for the fucking capabilites you ascribe to your Valar, MAiar, Dragons and the like.

Now: Some examples of the fucking WEAKNESS of ME:
Balrogs: The fucking LORD of Balrogs was killed by an ELF!
Balrogs are Maiar who followed Melkor/Morgoth.
So Maiar can be killed through the use of normal Weapons.
Istari: One was about to be killed by fucking GOBLINS and WOLVES!
Dragons: One was killed by a SINGLE arrow.
Valar: Some of the Maiar did things that the Valar couldn't do. This shows that they are not that much stronger than Maiar. Hence, also not so hard to kill.

Examples of happenings during/after the AoL that only Creator (so in ME Illuvator and some of the Valar, at the VERY beginning of the world, before First Age)
1)Change the Landscape of the entire WORLD (Know about the BREAKING?!
2)Control the Weather in the entire World (It is stated that the weather was controlled during the AoL
3)Sink and raise entire continents.(Breaking, similar to 1)
4) Create new beings (Trollocs, Myrdraal, Gholam, etc were ALL created by the Chosen and other Dark Aes Sedai)

IIRC there are only a few Balrogs (a couple of dozen at the MOST, I think less that 20, but I'm not sure)

You also ignore one HUGE advantage that WoT has over ME: The us of Gateways and Travelling. This is similar to one of the MANY advantages SW has over ST: The ability to engage at will, and to disengage at will. ME does not have this capability. Not even the Valar.

The Rings are NOT as powerful as you seem to think: One of the Ring-Bearers (Gandalf) was almost killed by GOBLINS and WOLVES.

And your IDIOTIC Suggestion that it is IMPOSSIBLE to seal off Deities (Valar) in ME:
Valar are physical beings. Which means if you cast a sufficiently powerful shield around them, they can't escape. Shai'tan is not a physical Being, but he was still sealed off.
And: Melkor, the fucking SECOND STRONGEST BEING IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE OF ME, was held by a fucking CHAIN! I think, that he can be contained by a shield ...

1)Name something that can compete with unfathomably massive dragons.
2)Name something that can deal with Valar; who are like Greek gods
3)Name something that can deal with Maiar; who are like demigods
4)Name something that can deal with Balrogs
5)Name something that can deal with millions of orcs, elves, humans, and dwarves
6)Name something that can deal with the Rings of Power

I dealt with all of these already, but I'll mention them again, so that you will hopefully fucking understand.
1)A Dragon was killed by an arrow. A ball of fire, a lightning strike, or a fucking arrow could deal with them.
2) Valar can be killed, and they can be contained (Melkor was only not killed, because Valar don't kill other Valar. Melkor was contained by a Chain. Valar are physical beings, and are effected by physical attacks.
3&4)A Maiar (Balrogs are Maiar, Istari are Maiar) was about to be killed by some fucking GOBLINS and WOLVES. I think that WoT can deal more damage than some fucking wolves (or Perrin could call some wolves to fight them

)
5)Where do you get your numbers?! And they can be dealt with by armies of Spellcasters, who can hold off an infinite number of non-spellcasters through the use of shields and other spells. 27 Aes Sedai and a couple of hundred Younglings held off 50k Aiel, who HAD spellcaster support. About 200 Ashaman masscred those same Aiel (losing I think 5 or 6 of their own, while killing around 25k Aiel. Most of those who were lost, were lost during the beginning of the bettle, when the Ashaman started Gating in).
6) Rings of Power are not very powerful. An Istari WITHOUT a Ring of Power (Saruman) was able to defeat an Istarie WITH a Ring of Power (Gandalf).

About the fucking Gholam and his spell immunity: It is stated, that the Weaves touched him and disappeared. It does not say that the weaves touched him and the Weaves became undone thus not affecting the Gholam. It says they DISAPPEARED. This means that Saidar(used against Gholam in Ebou Dar) and Saidin (used against Mat by Halima, or better Aran'gar, in Salidar) can touch him. Since they ARE the magic in WoT, it follows that Magic is not able to hurt them. We have also BARELY seen any Combat Magic in ME.

NOW:
Before you go on with your stupid debating tactic of simply pulling numbers from the air (still waiting for your source of those millions of orcs, elves and the like) or stating stupid assumptions (One Istari can "poof" all of WoT channelers), I would like to ask you to:
1) Name the source of those weird numbers.
2) Explain WHY some of those idiotic assumptions should be believed.

YOU CANNOT SIMPLY STATE THINGS! YOU HAVE TO PROVE WHY YOUR STATEMENTS ARE TO BELIEVED.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2002-11-06 08:00am

P.S. It's about tie I read WoT through again: The tenth book is coming out in two months

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-11-07 05:38am

I remember something from The Path of Daggers along the lines of one Asha'man decimating a 100 man cavalry charge.. have to find the specifics.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-07 09:25am

D.Turtle wrote:One of your "MIGHTY" Dragons was killed by one fucking arrow!

It is also stated that Smaug was immune to all damage anywhere else, and Bilbo commented on how the "old fool" had allowed a patch of armor to work loose. As to how a dragon in the prime of its life would fare, the evidence is inconclusive.

Your IDIOTIC Suggestion that the Istari are IMMUNE to normal Weapons is simply that: IDIOTIC! READ THE BOOK "The HOBBIT". In it GANDALF (A Istari), is preparing to be KILLED by some WOLVES AND GOBLINS!

I never stated all the Istari, merely Gandalf the White. You are speaking of Gandalf the Grey, who is a separate character. Once Gandalf is resurrected to lead the Fellowship against Saruman and Sauron, he is allowed more power, which includes immunity to normal weapons (which suggests that is a Maiar ability, though that cannot be proven).

The Dark One has millions of Trollocs; how is it he has not conquered all of Westland? It is because Sauron is held back by the might of Gondor, and he does not want to strike until the time is right and he has the Ring.
GET YOUR THOUGHTS IN ORDER BEFORE WRÍTING.
The Dark one is NOT Sauron ... THINK and THEN write.

Then who IS the "Dark One of Mordor"?

Show EXAMPLES for the fucking capabilites you ascribe to your Valar, Maiar, Dragons and the like.

Read the Silmarillion (I realize this is a fallacious argument, but I plead clemency because I do not have the book with me to reference).

Now: Some examples of the fucking WEAKNESS of ME:
Balrogs: The fucking LORD of Balrogs was killed by an ELF!

Actually, it was the Witch-King of Angmar, head of the Nazgul. And he was slain by Eowyn, a human woman who was the sister of Eomer. And the Witch-King got over-confident and forgot the prophecy that only a woman could kill him, so he did not fight to his full abilities. The Balrog was killed by Gandalf.

Balrogs are Maiar who followed Melkor/Morgoth.
So Maiar can be killed through the use of normal Weapons.

The Balrog was killed by Gandalf, another Maiar. Given that the Balrog was not slain by an elf, but by a Maiar with a legendary weapon, there is no evidence that Maiar can be slain by normal weapons.

Istari: One was about to be killed by GOBLINS and WOLVES!

True, he was about to be slain by fire. He showed no evidence of being in any other danger, and would not abandon his companions (particularly since he seems to have had some suspicion already that Bilbo had the Ruling Ring).

Dragons: One was killed by a SINGLE arrow.

An "old fool" of a dragon was killed by an arrow penetrating the sole weak point that had been allowed to form in his armor. That took the equivalent of a sniper to kill the dragon after it had destroyed most of the village, with the entire army trying to stop him.

Valar: Some of the Maiar did things that the Valar couldn't do. This shows that they are not that much stronger than Maiar. Hence, also not so hard to kill.

Besides the fact that the Balrog wasn't slain by a human, do you have any evidence that what the Maiar did the Valar couldn't do?

The Rings are NOT as powerful as you seem to think: One of the Ring-Bearers (Gandalf) was almost killed by GOBLINS and WOLVES.

Gandalf also wasn't allowed to use his powers to directly contribute to the future of Middle-Earth. He could influence events (such as confronting the necromancer of Dul Goldur) but could not stand in the way of the future until he became Gandalf the White.

And your IDIOTIC Suggestion that it is IMPOSSIBLE to seal off Deities (Valar) in ME:
Valar are physical beings. Which means if you cast a sufficiently powerful shield around them, they can't escape. Shai'tan is not a physical Being, but he was still sealed off.
And: Melkor, the fucking SECOND STRONGEST BEING IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE OF ME, was held by a fucking CHAIN! I think, that he can be contained by a shield ...

1)A Dragon was killed by an arrow. A ball of fire, a lightning strike, or a fucking arrow could deal with them.

The arrow was dealt with already, and vulnerability to physical force is no evidence of vulnerability to energy.

3&4)A Maiar (Balrogs are Maiar, Istari are Maiar) was about to be killed by some GOBLINS and WOLVES. I think that WoT can deal more damage than some wolves (or Perrin could call some wolves to fight them )

Dealt with already, and Istari are Maiar whose powers have been limited for purposes of not oppressing the freedom of Middle-Earth.

6) Rings of Power are not very powerful. An Istari WITHOUT a Ring of Power (Saruman) was able to defeat an Istari WITH a Ring of Power (Gandalf).

Gandalf didn't use Narya in that battle; the Rings were used only when necessary, since their use ran the risk of "corrupting the user." Additionally, Saruman was the most powerful Istari at that time, and also had gathered magical artifacts for himself.

About the Gholam and his spell immunity: It is stated, that the Weaves touched him and disappeared. It does not say that the weaves touched him and the Weaves became undone thus not affecting the Gholam. It says they DISAPPEARED. This means that Saidar(used against Gholam in Ebou Dar) and Saidin (used against Mat by Halima, or better Aran'gar, in Salidar) can touch him. Since they ARE the magic in WoT, it follows that Magic is not able to hurt them. We have also BARELY seen any Combat Magic in ME.

Two comments. First, not all magic is equivalent. By your argument, Trekkies have a legitimate claim that SW ships must use warp drive, since that's the only FTL transportation in their universe. All that follows from your argument is that magic based on Weaves do not work against the Gholam. Also, at least some magic in ME works by affecting the environment instead of the "actual" target. The wall of water that washed the Nazgul away wasn't done by Arwen in the books, but most likely Elrond, using the Ring of Water. In the Goblin/Warg scene you are so fond of quoting, Gandalf transforms pine cones into the equivalent of grenades.

I don't know who would win, since I haven't read all of WoT, but I do know that some of the assumptions being rebutted are not textually supported. Both sides need to do a closer reading of all books in question.