Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

[XaLEv]

Alright, I'll give you the JMS quotes.

http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore ... &qs=1&qt=0

http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore ... &qs=1&qt=0

http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore ... &qs=1&qt=0

http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore ... &qs=1&qt=0

http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore ... &qs=1&qt=0

http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore ... &qs=1&qt=0

[Graeme Dice]

Hate to butt in, but...
there are a few issues I would like to address concerning to last couple of posts.

1st: The issue of force users should be a nonissue. Vader is the only one on the DS. Also, Vader to my knowledge cannot compete against the vorlons or shadows.

Vader:
able to use basic telekinisis i.e. throw big things and choke people, can't fly or teleport himself
has not shown he can use force lightning
mind control capabilities, nominal (to my knowledge it was the emperor who was mind controling the galaxy)

Note that Vader's telekinetic abilities are greater than that ever shown by any B5 telepath. He also doesn't need LOS to function.

Vorlon/Shadow:
"Beings of pure energy"

Vorlons maybe, Shadows definetly not.

Can kill humans instantly

Except of course, when they try and fail.

Shadows can become invisible

Doesn't matter to a force user whether they can see the creature or not.

Telepathic powers more than that of Vader

Hardly. They can defend against incursions from an enhanced human and that's about it.

Thank you for admitting that their psychic abilities are so poor that they cannot disguise their image.

Dice, there are many reasons for not flaunting there stuff, their purpose was too fit in and guide the younger races, also there were other telepaths on the station that would of been able to see through their mental projection.[/quote]

Thank you for admitting that their psychic abilities are so poor that they can't disguise their image from the supposedly inferior younger races.

2nd,
Hyperspace portals are artificial wormholes. They tear through the fabric of space and connect real space and hyperspace. If the death star can withstand that kind force so be it. They however probably can't seeing as how the Sun Crusher was teared appart in the Maw.

Are there any known conditions where jump points cannot be opened?

3rd,
"PPG rifles fire in the high kilowatt to low megawatt range"
Are blasters really stronger than that?

Their effects are easily demonstratable to be inferior to hand-held blasters. Blasters punch holes in concrete and fist-sized holes in people. (See ANH detention block scene in the original version.) Garibaldi didn't have a small explosion and a burning hole in his back when he was shot.

Quite irrelevant considering that the Death Star will be moving faster than a ny ship in B5 has ever travelled in realspace.

Not when they have to stop, in order to use the superlaser and decimate fleets.[/quote]

Why do they have to stop moving to fire the superlaser? You have heard of Newton's laws of motion, haven't you?

How would the EA defend it.

According to B5tech a single particle beam on one defence sat can pump out 2.7 million Terawatts every 30 sec of continuous firing. Note there is more than one sat. Are the DS's shields strong enough?

B5tech.com is not a valid source of information if that is what you are referring to, and your use of units in the above statement is laughable. Terrawatts per 30 seconds is meaningless in the context you have used. If they actually mean terrajoules per 30 seconds, then it will take them about 1.6 trillion years of continuous firing to reach the order of magnitude of Alderaan's explosion.

[Graeme Dice]

I'm still looking for a quote. But here's the short version:

If JMS gives the thumbs up for b5 book, he must approve of it. He has the power to cancel his own show if he doens't like the way it's going. Nothing gets a B5 label attached to it without JMS's explicit permission.

Thank you for actually stating this.

TK abilities to match vader. (ref. Kosh/Ulkesh chocking/ slamming Sheridan/Lyta against a bulkhead with his mind)

That doesn't match Vader. They would have to throw multiple human-weight targets around at once to match Vader on Bespin.

Mind Raping abilities (Ulkesh mind fucked Lyta when she tried to scan him)

If that's the so-called "mind-raping", the I'm not impressed by their abilities. He pushed her out of his mind and scared her. How is that supposed to kill someone?

Mind Control (Shadows and vorlons mind controlling Lyta at corianna 6. )

Lyta mind controlling people within a 10 meter radius notice the lack of line of sight....

Lyta is not a standard telepath.

ring the ranges at which the first ones were able to mind control Lyta, It is conceivable that in a massive assault (in which the first one ships would be destroyed), the firstones could mind control the commanding officer on the Death Star, and actually start to cause serious damage to the death star from the inside.

How is controlling one officer going to cause serious damage? When he starts behaving irrationally remove him from command.

Heck, Vader doesn't even need LOS to use his telekinesis.

And neither does Lyta, who is actually weak in comparison to the first ones(see above)[/quote]

Do you have proof that Lyta is weak compared to the first ones? She was their specially designed weapon, not their equivalent.

An assumption with no evidence to back it up.

This is incorrect. We have continually seen throughout the series that real space objects cast no "hyerpspace shadow" in hyperspace. Were there such a "shadow" we would have heard it talked about during the multitude of times a ship gets close to a planet (or the point in hyperspace equivilant). Yet there is no such mention at all.

allow me to present this analogy.

You are in a swimming pool and a volley ball net is strung up from the sides. Above the pool is real space. The water is hyperspace. You can't go through the net (DS shield), so you go under water (phase to hyperspace) move a distance under water (travelling through hyperpsace) and exit the water on the other end of the pool (getting back into real space) and you've completely bypassed the net.



And I've yet to hear a valid counter against the Eye of Z'ha'dum.[/quote]

[Graeme Dice]

Of course I am. Having never actually seen any evidence for this claim, I am calling on someone to actually provide it.

how about u look it up yourself.

Not my job to do your work for you.

Looks like it applies only to AoG books then.

nope.. everyting b5 related..[/quote]

That's not what the quote stated.

i doubt vader, or even the emperor, is near lyta level of direct control telepathy.. mr vacit.. one of the early heads of psicorp, a second generation teep, was more powerful than lyta, due to a piece of vorlon inside him.. and he posed as a norm INSIDE the psicorps organisation for decades.. given that in the early years, a norm was required by rule to act as head of that organisation.

The Emperor controlled millions of minds across interstellar distances. Lyta managed 10 in a single room.

So superbeings are all you have left then?

deathstar vs b5?..
includes all the firstones right?..
these superbeings are also firstones..
u referred to them as firstones right?.[/quote]
What are you on, and can I have some? Lorien is not a standard First one.

You cannot give the death cloud abilities it has not been shown to possess through valid sources.

hmm????..
???.. [/quote]
The death cloud has been shown to be able to remove a certain amount of energy. Any attempt to have it removing more than that amount of energy is giving it abilities it hasn't been shown to have.

Then you are blind, deaf, and dumb, because they never shattered a planet in the series.

explain what happened to arkada7 then.
probe was sent to area it resided in, and trace of it was found..
susan ivanova said it was not in that area anymore.. lyta (who knew the vorlons more than anyone else on b5) followed up by saying it was destroyed.[/quote]

Then explain why there were survivors from the planet.

tering planets in general.. season four episode epiphanies.. z'hadum was blown apart, albeit not by either the vorlon planet killer, or shadow planet killer, but it does show that planet shattering capabilities do exist in b5.

Yes, but on a scale where a device of unknown size must be planted on the planet.

??...i dont see sw ships opening up jump points and going into other dimensions as means of travel..

I guess you've never watched the movies then, because they trael iun hyperspace al the time.

Quite irrelevant considering that the Death Star will be moving faster than a ny ship in B5 has ever travelled in realspace.

assuming it doesnt slowdown/stop to take shots at planets.[/quote]

Newsflash, the Death Star obeys Newton's laws of motion. It doesn't have to stop just because it turns its engines off.

Where did you get the idea that a shadow should have a "characteristic release of energy"? The one killed on B5 had no such release, and it's body also remained invisible.

why would the body continue to remain invisible if the shadow is dead?..

energy release upon a shadows death was described in the technomage trilogy...[/quote]
The body of a shadow remained invisible when it was killed on B5, and there was no release of energy.

If you aren't willing to provide evidence to back up your claims, then don't make them. From the quote it looks like only the B5wars book and any other materials published by AoG are part of the universe.

again if you arent convinced by the fact that the "official" b5 chronology includes events that occured in novels, short stories, and graphic novels, then u will remain unconvinced..[/quote]
Why should I be convinced that those events are included if you have provided no evidence that they are?

[His Divine Shadow]

However, control is SW over another being has been demonstrated clearly in the Thrawn trilogy where C'boath takes over the Chimaera's bridge crew, and in the last command it was implied that he did the same to the entire Chimaera. He also totally mind-rapped the general, up to the point that he could not survive without being close to C'boath, so I think that adds a little weight to what Sith/Jedi are capable of...

The quote:

Pg. 201: C'baoth simply stood there, his hands clutching at empty ah; his eyes gazing toward infinity. Pellaeon frowned at him ... and he was just considering asking C'baoth what he was talking about when he happened to glance down into the portside crew pit.
The crewers were sitting stiffly in their chairs, their backs parade-ground straight, their hands folded in their laps, their eyes staring blankly through their consoles. Behind them, the officers were equally stiff, equally motionless, equally oblivious. The starboard crew pit was the same as was the aft bridge. And on the consoles Pellaeon could see, which should have been active with incoming reports from other sectors of the ship, the displays had all gone static.
It was a moment Pellaeon had expected and dreaded since that first visit to Wayland. C'baoth had taken command of the Chimaera.

(ref: The Last Command)

[Shadow WarChief]

If JMS gives the thumbs up for b5 book, he must approve of it. He has the power to cancel his own show if he doens't like the way it's going. Nothing gets a B5 label attached to it without JMS's explicit permission.

Thank you for actually stating this.

So am I to understand that you will now accept the B5 novels as canon?

Mind Raping abilities (Ulkesh mind fucked Lyta when she tried to scan him)

If that's the so-called "mind-raping", the I'm not impressed by their abilities. He pushed her out of his mind and scared her. How is that supposed to kill someone?

No. He did not merely push her out. He pushed her out, and then invaded her own mind and started to mental. And this should not be presumed to be a full use of vorlon TP due to the fact that Lyta was Ulkesh's "aid". He needed a non brain scrambled YR pawn with him.

Lyta is not a standard telepath.

Agreed. She is not. Lyta is superior to other telepaths, but inferior to first ones (despite her powers she was still mind controlled by them)

Now considering the fact that we know Lyta does not need LOS to mind control something, is it not logical to assume that the firstones who are more powerful also do not need LOS to mind control?

The only factor in question is at which range the firstones will be able to mind control something. We know for a fact that Kosh can send visions at great distances (light years distances at least considering the amount of time spent in hyperpsace).

While this is not mind control, but merely a form of suggestion, is it not also conceivable that during a battle against the death star, a vorlon could cause some confusion on the death star?

How is controlling one officer going to cause serious damage? When he starts behaving irrationally remove him from command.

So am I to understand that you agree that if the firstones get in range that they will be able to do mind control?

As for being relieved of duty...who has the authority to remove a Grand Moff of command?

But assuming that they aren't able to get control over the GM, and only say...a technician, isn't it even remotely possible that they could cause some systems to fail at least momentarily?

And I just remembered how Kosh transplanted a piece of himself into Sheridan. When Sheridan was asleep and Kosh was being murdered, Kosh transplanted himself at a distance.

It is now likely that a vorlon could break off a piece of himself onto a storm trooper, and cause extreme chaos within the death star.

Of course, there's one problem with this...Can the vorlon send a piece of himself through the DS shield?

Can it?

Do you have proof that Lyta is weak compared to the first ones? She was their specially designed weapon, not their equivalent.

Lyta was repeatedly mind controlled by first ones at Corianna 6 despite her abilities





Oh by the way, you didn't respond to this part. you only included it in your message:

An assumption with no evidence to back it up.

This is incorrect. We have continually seen throughout the series that real space objects cast no "hyerpspace shadow" in hyperspace. Were there such a "shadow" we would have heard it talked about during the multitude of times a ship gets close to a planet (or the point in hyperspace equivilant). Yet there is no such mention at all.

allow me to present this analogy.

You are in a swimming pool and a volley ball net is strung up from the sides. Above the pool is real space. The water is hyperspace. You can't go through the net (DS shield), so you go under water (phase to hyperspace) move a distance under water (travelling through hyperpsace) and exit the water on the other end of the pool (getting back into real space) and you've completely bypassed the net.


And I've yet to hear a valid counter against the Eye of Z'ha'dum.[/quote]

And I've yet to hear a valid counter against the Eye of Z'Ha'Dum...still....

[adam warlock]

Not my job to do your work for you.

but the way your going.. i could type up every entry in the b5 chronology.. and u still wouldnt believe it.. i could scan it.. (if i had a scanner).. and you wouldnt believe it.. i could find entries by jms related to the matter.. u still wouldnt belive it..

That's not what the quote stated.

where did it specify that the material to be used within b5wars only?..
it stated that if jms, or any of his staff, wasnt around to answer technical question.. those people asking were directed to aog.

What are you on, and can I have some? Lorien is not a standard First one.

good grief..he is A firstone.. what part of "firstones" dont you understand.

The death cloud has been shown to be able to remove a certain amount of energy. Any attempt to have it removing more than that amount of energy is giving it abilities it hasn't been shown to have.

the extent of this capability has never been shown, and the incident at corianna 6 is hardly representative.. considering shadows hesitancy to kill off the yr fleet (i.e. using only 2 missles, on sheriden and delenn's ship when they couldve used thousands on the fleet).
it is known that shadows and vorlons are technology on par with eachother, and are generally assumed to be capable of producing similar outputs on power generation..

Then explain why there were survivors from the planet.

there were no survivors from arkada7

those who escaped from ventradi 3's destruction were regarded as refugees
vpk started targeting refugee stations
survivors had to be "evacuated" from the ground.. no rescue operation was mentioned for those planets that were being attacked.. but it was clear that that because the vpk started targeting those refugee stations. that people there had to be evacuated.

however if we could say that one planet was not shattered, while another one was.. size considerations aside, does that mean the vpk is incapable of shattering one?.. no... it did, so it can.

Yes, but on a scale where a device of unknown size must be planted on the planet.

the point is they are capable of shattering planets.

I guess you've never watched the movies then, because they trael iun hyperspace al the time.

??? again sw hyperspace != b5 hyperspace...just because they have the same names does not mean they are similar in nature..
AFAIK sw hyperspace is a form of ftl travel in realspace, whereas b5 hyperspace involves having to enter another dimension, as a means of faster travel.

Newsflash, the Death Star obeys Newton's laws of motion. It doesn't have to stop just because it turns its engines off.

???so the deathstar obeys newtons laws.. thats all fine and dandy.. now doesnt it have to slow down, make certain maneuvers, perhaps even stop, and overall make itself predictable when attacking planets..

The body of a shadow remained invisible when it was killed on B5, and there was no release of energy.

no shadow was killed in babylon 5, unless youre talking about the shadow servant in the season 2 episode "the long night".
or if youre taking about the shadow shot by sheriden in z'hadum, it didnt die its armour wasnt even penetrated, as mentioned in the technomage trilogy.

Why should I be convinced that those events are included if you have provided no evidence that they are?

quotes from jms : as supplied by xalev (much thanks)

Subject: JMS: Are the novels official canon?
From: Jms at B5
Date: 05/05/2000 05:01 AM
Forum: Usenet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I seem to recall you mentioning that the book "To Dream in the City of
>Sorrows" was official B5 canon. Do you consider the "Legions of Fire"
>series to also be official canon? What is your opinion of the series?
>

In broad strokes, yes, the series is canon, since I came up with the outline
for all the Del Rey novels. And overall, I'm very pleased with how they've
been going.

jms

Subject: ATTN JMS: Future Books
From: Jms at B5
Date: 03/21/2000 06:10 AM
Forum: Usenet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Who's writing the Technomage Trilogy? Are you getting/did you get
>manuscripts for the Psi-Corp, Centauri, and Technomage trilogies to ensure
>they're canon?

Jeanne Cavelos, and yes, they're all run past me and our reference editor,
Fiona Avery.

jms

First, where are you getting this from? If it is a B5 novel could you give us the title, I would love to read it!!!!

the psicorps trilogy.. ans short story called nautilus coil

However, control is SW over another being has been demonstrated clearly in the Thrawn trilogy where C'boath takes over the Chimaera's bridge crew, and in the last command it was implied that he did the same to the entire Chimaera. He also totally mind-rapped the general, up to the point that he could not survive without being close to C'boath, so I think that adds a little weight to what Sith/Jedi are capable of...

yes but lyta was able to destroy, psychically and telekinetically tearing apart the mind and brain of huge being, at least a few miles long, that was telepathically in control of a whole world.. this was in the short story "genius loci".. which details one of the exploits of gkar and lyta after the left the babylon 5 station in the season 5 episode "objects in motion".

she herself stated that mr vacit..that secon gen (weak) telepath with a piece of vorlon inside him, was more powerful than her, described in nautilus coil.. an story in which lyta also finally removed besters p12 blocks inside michael garibaldis head (the ones bester placed as detailed in the first episodes of season 4.

[His Divine Shadow]

And that compares to the Emperor controlling the starfleet how?
Or maybe how he buried the Lusankya infront of billions, if not trillions, of beings and no one saw it?

Pg. 236-237: "I know where and when Lusankya was created, and I know when it was given to me, so I have narrowed down the possible dates for its insertion into the world, but even as director of Imperial Intelligence I could find no clue as to how the insertion happened."

"But it had to have taken hundreds of construction droids and weeks of time. A project that size could not have gone unnoticed."

"I would agree, unless...the Force is something I do not understand and cannot touch, but the Emperor could. Is it possible he drew the ship down and buried it using the Force? I suppose. Is it possible that he merely stretched his mind out and prevented anyone from noticing the ship's descent? Also possible." She shook her head. "All I know is that the Emperor confided its location to me at roughly the same time its sister ship, the Executor, became operational."

A chill ran down Corran's spine. Even unschooled as he was in the Force, he'd managed to blank the mind of a stormtrooper looking for him. If the Emperor could manage to do that for billions of people, the miracle of the Rebellion is that it succeeded at all.

(ref: Isard's Revenge)

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh yes, for the 25k ISD's alone the Emperor would have to control 1.172.500.000 people.

[seanrobertson]

Alright, so it's concluded that the Death Star could basically waste all younger races. And that combined the Vorlons and Shadows could overwhelm them.

Once it was widely thought that this planet was flat. That was wrong

Vorlons and Shadows couldn't stop the Death Star from hyperjumping
nearby and blowing their planets to smithereens. How are they
going to detect the DS? How are they going to stop it once (assuming
if) they do? Will they magically materialize billions of ships into
range, drop the DS's shields, etc., before the DS can accomplish
its mission?

So how about an invasion of earth?
What kind of ground forces does the death star have? (Enough to put the EA army out of commission)?
Would G.O.D make a dent on the DS? http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/p ... ebeam.html
Would starfurys be able find the thermal exhaust port and deliver the KO?

No. X-Wings' proton torpedos work very much unlike any Starfury weapons.
Watch them entering the exhaust port again.

And no, those satellites wouldn't do squat to the Death Star. Go
here: http://www.babtech-onthe.net/pold.html Look at
the very bottom of the page.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[His Divine Shadow]

Proton torpedoes are most likely not conventional weapons.
The general idea has been that they are simple explosives that do damage real fast(like a nuke), but this doesn't work because:

1. ISD's have taken thermonuclear warheads without flinching.
2. SW ships have taken repeated fire from planetary scale railguns(and a really fast KE impact would impart it's energy very fast)

And then there is the description wich says it's a "proton scattering warhead" wich can mean anything really...

[seanrobertson]

His Divine Shadow

Proton torpedoes are most likely not conventional weapons.
The general idea has been that they are simple explosives that do damage real fast(like a nuke), but this doesn't work because:

1. ISD's have taken thermonuclear warheads without flinching.
2. SW ships have taken repeated fire from planetary scale railguns(and a really fast KE impact would impart it's energy very fast)

And then there is the description wich says it's a "proton scattering warhead" wich can mean anything really...

Yes. And actually, I was mostly thinking about the way a protorp can snap-turn and go down the shaft. I know of no EA, Minbari, Vorlon, Third Spacer,
or Lorien's people-designed weapon that can do that!

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[Shadow WarChief]

Yes. And actually, I was mostly thinking about the way a protorp can snap-turn and go down the shaft.

Does "use the force luke" Mean anything to you?

I know of no EA, Minbari,
Vorlon, Third Spacer,
or Lorien's people-designed weapon that can do that!

Then you are an idiot. Lorien's people are one step below the Q (ref: AOG). They want a ship, they think about, and there it is. They want weapons. They think about it and there it is.

Someone with the AOG book can probably go into more detail but that's what i've gathered from chatting with people who have it.



And I've yet to hear a countermeasure to the eye of Z'ha'dum. Does not one imperial supporter have a way to avoid this?

If they want to destroy the main base of the shadows, there going to have to go up against it and available evidence points in the direction of complete and total control of the DS when within the sight of the Eye.

Give me a reason to think otherwise people...

[Graeme Dice]

So am I to understand that you will now accept the B5 novels as canon?

Of course.

No. He did not merely push her out. He pushed her out, and then invaded her own mind and started to mental. And this should not be presumed to be a full use of vorlon TP due to the fact that Lyta was Ulkesh's "aid". He needed a non brain scrambled YR pawn with him.

He caused her no permanent physiological or noticeable psychological harm. Any other possible damage is not supported by the evidence and is mere assumption.

Now considering the fact that we know Lyta does not need LOS to mind control something, is it not logical to assume that the firstones who are more powerful also do not need LOS to mind control?

The only factor in question is at which range the firstones will be able to mind control something. We know for a fact that Kosh can send visions at great distances (light years distances at least considering the amount of time spent in hyperpsace).

While this is not mind control, but merely a form of suggestion, is it not also conceivable that during a battle against the death star, a vorlon could cause some confusion on the death star?

How would some confusion affect the outcome? He would have to individually affect each and every single gunner in tens of thousands of weapon emplacements to render it harmless.

So am I to understand that you agree that if the firstones get in range that they will be able to do mind control?

On a few people, yes.

As for being relieved of duty...who has the authority to remove a Grand Moff of command?

Anybody with a blaster would have such authority if they felt their life was in enough danger.

But assuming that they aren't able to get control over the GM, and only say...a technician, isn't it even remotely possible that they could cause some systems to fail at least momentarily?

Remotely possible, yes. Likely that it would affect noticeably the health of a moon-sized ship, not very.

It is now likely that a vorlon could break off a piece of himself onto a storm trooper, and cause extreme chaos within the death star.

One stormtrooper is going to cause extreme chaos? Kill the trooper and the piece of the Vorlon dies with it.

And I've yet to hear a valid counter against the Eye of Z'ha'dum.

Too many people to control all at once compared to its known capabilities.

[Graeme Dice]

Not my job to do your work for you.

but the way your going.. i could type up every entry in the b5 chronology.. and u still wouldnt believe it.. i could scan it.. (if i had a scanner).. and you wouldnt believe it.. i could find entries by jms related to the matter.. u still wouldnt belive it..

I will believe only what is supported by evidence. If you cannot provide the direct quotation in the case of literature, or an episode and scene description in the case of the televised episodes, then you have no evidence, and no proof.

where did it specify that the material to be used within b5wars only?..
it stated that if jms, or any of his staff, wasnt around to answer technical question.. those people asking were directed to aog.

Which is exactly what I just told you in the message you replied to. That quote gives validity only to B5Wars and AoG info.

good grief..he is A firstone.. what part of "firstones" dont you understand.

He is a single individual, who didn't even get involved in events until Sheridan arrived and made him interested.

the extent of this capability has never been shown,

That is a lie. We saw it's capabilities at Corianna 6.

and the incident at corianna 6 is hardly representative.. considering shadows hesitancy to kill off the yr fleet (i.e. using only 2 missles, on sheriden and delenn's ship when they couldve used thousands on the fleet).

They showed no hesitancy in attempting to destroy the White Star until te communication with Lorien started.

there were no survivors from arkada7

those who escaped from ventradi 3's destruction were regarded as refugees
vpk started targeting refugee stations
survivors had to be "evacuated" from the ground.. no rescue operation was mentioned for those planets that were being attacked.. but it was clear that that because the vpk started targeting those refugee stations. that people there had to be evacuated.

however if we could say that one planet was not shattered, while another one was.. size considerations aside, does that mean the vpk is incapable of shattering one?.. no... it did, so it can.

Which episode did this take place in?

??? again sw hyperspace != b5 hyperspace...just because they have the same names does not mean they are similar in nature..
AFAIK sw hyperspace is a form of ftl travel in realspace, whereas b5 hyperspace involves having to enter another dimension, as a means of faster travel.

That is completely incorrect and only betrays your ignorance of the subject matter. SW hyperspace is a separate dimension, and is described as such in nearly all sources where it is even mentioned.

???so the deathstar obeys newtons laws.. thats all fine and dandy.. now doesnt it have to slow down, make certain maneuvers, perhaps even stop, and overall make itself predictable when attacking planets..

A planet is essentially a stationary target. The Imperials have computers capable of predicting the paths and locations of objects for hyperdrive trips across the galaxy. Aiming at a single planet will not be a challenge.

The body of a shadow remained invisible when it was killed on B5, and there was no release of energy.

no shadow was killed in babylon 5, unless youre talking about the shadow servant in the season 2 episode "the long night".[/quote]
Yes, I am talking about that Shadow. If you have evidence that it was some other form of life than a Shadow, please present it.

yes but lyta was able to destroy, psychically and telekinetically tearing apart the mind and brain of huge being, at least a few miles long, that was telepathically in control of a whole world.. this was in the short story "genius loci".. which details one of the exploits of gkar and lyta after the left the babylon 5 station in the season 5 episode "objects in motion".

The Emperor hid the fact that an 18km ship was landed on a completely urbanized planet withn mile-high buildings and then covered over again with more buildings. He essentially blanked completely the minds of several trillion people for a period of several days to several months depending on your view of SW building construction abilities.

[Graeme Dice]

Does "use the force luke" Mean anything to you?

Are you claiming that an almost completely untrained force-user has the ability to cause two objects close to the size of a human to make a 72,000g turn? If so, then the First Ones are doomed. A single Jedi can apply enough force to throw them through bulkheads without even thinking about it.

If they want to destroy the main base of the shadows, there going to have to go up against it and available evidence points in the direction of complete and total control of the DS when within the sight of the Eye.

Give me a reason to think otherwise people...

The Death Star can fire from a longer range that that where the White Star began to be affected.

[SirNitram]

Yes. And actually, I was mostly thinking about the way a protorp can snap-turn and go down the shaft.

Does "use the force luke" Mean anything to you?

That would be for timing. Unless you beleive a Jedi can impart a multi-thousand G turn on an object.

Of course, AOTC proved that all missile weapons in SW have such insane maneuverability, and tracking.

[His Divine Shadow]

Does "use the force luke" Mean anything to you?

Luke used the force to aim, not to guide the weapon, you don't actually think they were going to use a weapon actyally incapable of hitting the Reactor? I didn't hear them say "We need some Jedi if we are to going to pull this off"

Then you are an idiot. Lorien's people are one step below the Q (ref: AOG). They want a ship, they think about, and there it is. They want weapons. They think about it and there it is.

And this matters why?
I still have not seen a weapon that can do that either, wich was the point, not to spout on about Lorien and how good and capable he is.
Not that I believe that Q thing either...

And I've yet to hear a countermeasure to the eye of Z'ha'dum. Does not one imperial supporter have a way to avoid this?

And I've yet to hear why it would come into play at all.
The Deathstar can destroy it from 50million klicks away and it can do it in a snap, before any shadows or anyone has the time to run down to the shop and buy a clue.

[Master of Ossus]

If a successful strike on the DS was totally dependent on the use of the Force to turn the torpedo, then Red Leader would never have made his ill-fated run. Neither would the Gold Squadron pilots have gone in without chance of success. Dodonna was no fool. If he knew that torpedoes could not make the turn, he never would have sent everybody to die for nothing. He would have tried to preserve their fighters and send them somewhere else while evacuating whatever he could.

[Shadow WarChief]

O hereby apologize for and retract my half assed "use the force luke" statement....

[Master of Ossus]

Don't mention it.

[Shadow WarChief]

He caused her no permanent physiological or noticeable psychological harm. Any other possible damage is not supported by the evidence and is mere assumption.

Permanant damage is not necessary for the required task of mind raping storm troopers.

How would some confusion affect the outcome? He would have to individually affect each and every single gunner in tens of thousands of weapon emplacements to render it harmless.

Grand Moff Tarkin: Fire on the planet Lt.

Lt: Which planet sir?

GMT: The planet right in front of us. Fire!

Lt: but sir...

GMT: FIRE!!

DS shoots a planet killing blast..into empty space because of a firstone's interference causing the loss of a superlaser blast.

This is the confusion I speak of.

As for being relieved of duty...who has the authority to remove a Grand Moff of command?

Anybody with a blaster would have such authority if they felt their life was in enough danger.[/quote]

Anybody with a blaster would have such authority to disobey their commanding officer...

It is now likely that a vorlon could break off a piece of himself onto a storm trooper, and cause extreme chaos within the death star.

One stormtrooper is going to cause extreme chaos? Kill the trooper and the piece of the Vorlon dies with it.[/quote]

You do of course know that the piece of said vorlon can then leave the storm troopers body correct?

(ref: Kosh leaving Sheridan to go kick Ulkesh's ass)

And once the Vorlon is free, he will be able to move about the DS freely, killing troopers and officers as he goes, completely impervious to their blaster fire.

And I've yet to hear a valid counter against the Eye of Z'ha'dum.

Too many people to control all at once compared to its known capabilities.[/quote]

Not really no. While it probably is beyond the abilities of the eye to mind control all the beings on the DS, only MCing (Mind controlling) the high ranking officers would be enough to subdue the DS.

[Master of Ossus]

What's the range on the Eye? No one seems to have that information.

[Shadow WarChief]

The only way we'll find out is if someone has "the hour of the wolf" on tape

[Dead on Arrival]

The Eye is the mechanism through which the Shadows control their fleets realtime across the galaxy. It also detected Ivanova when she went to the Walker's homeworld of Sigma-957 while plugged into the Great Machine, though she was able to resist the pull and get back on the 'path'. That would seem to suggest that at multiple (no idea how far Z'ha'dum is from Sigma-957) LY range the Eye is less effective. Draal did express surprise at this, so perhaps her ability to resist at all was due to her latent telepathic abilities (not even P1). However, the Eye was able to overwhelm Lyta (P12+), who in the short story 'Genius Loci' (written by JMS) was able to survive a telepathic battle with a planetary hivemind...though she self-admittedly did not permanently destroy it.

It's range? How about as soon as the Eye detects you...

Mr. Dice, telepathy and telekinesis are not the same thing, and the fact a Psi-Cop could not move a piece of paper with his mind is not prove of anything. The Vorlons created telepaths, not telekinetics, in the Younger Races. However, the Younger Races have made some headway in unlocking other mental abilities, with some success and alot of failure. We know most of the YRs eventually ascend into beings of light, a forced and not natural change I would believe. Give them some time, and they to might be able to lift an X-wing out of a swamp...

As to the statement of Shadows not being beings of light, the following is an excerpt from pg. 7 of Invoking Darkness, Book III in the Passing of the Techno-Mages trilogy.

The door to his residence slid open and the enemy entered. They too were creatures of light, yet they preferred a more material form, encasing themselves in jagged carapaces of blackness, adopting outer shapes that reflected the inner truth of their beings

I only skimmed, don't want to debate due to lack of information, so take care for now...