New BSG Premier: "33" and "Water"

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Post by RogueIce »

Stravo wrote:Moreover one Mark's question about the shifts, unless I'm mistaken the Galactica was staffed by a skeleton crew since she was going to be decomissioned into a museum at the begining of the pilot. So she may have only picked up a few random military survivors from the colonies and may not be fully crewed.
True. That also has an effect.

Also, something to think about as the series goes on. They could've overstocked at that ammo dump, since they'd have more or less half the fighter capacity and less of a crew, so ammo might last for longer than normal (and they might have big ass magazines anyway, given their enemy's prime weapons seem to be missiles). But eventually they're gonna have to face the challenge of running out of ammo.

The same can be said of the Vipers. I know they had a tanker along the way, and they might've overstocked at fuel during the ammo dump portion as well, but again, they're going to run out eventually. And new fuel would be harder to create than new bullets, I would think.

There's also the matter of just normal attrition wearing down the Viper force as well.
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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

HemlockGrey wrote:Wait, one of the main characters in this series has a villain implanted in his head through a neuro-chip?

...where have I heard that before?
No, he's just crazy.

Wait, same dealy with Farscape.

Well, Baltar is still and awesome character.
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Arrow Mk84 wrote:Ugh. Calm the fuck down. This ain't Ethopia and I'm not a twinky. All I'm saying is got an atheist-bashing vibe from that scene. And please notice I used the qualifier if. I want to see where the Number Six-Religion plot goes before deciding.
I cannot fathom how one could interpret "Please let 1300 die for me, Cylon God" to mean anything good about religion. Think what you will, though.
Quadlok wrote:Did it bother anyone else that no one even mentioned trying to recover the water they'd lost, rather than search for more? It isn't like water disapears when its vented into space.
Maybe they didn't have anything to collect water vapor with. Tigh said that they were looking for liquid water or ice, which would be easier to transport in a shuttle.
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Post by Knife »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
Quadlok wrote:Did it bother anyone else that no one even mentioned trying to recover the water they'd lost, rather than search for more? It isn't like water disapears when its vented into space.
Maybe they didn't have anything to collect water vapor with. Tigh said that they were looking for liquid water or ice, which would be easier to transport in a shuttle.
I'll be interested in what they send to get the ice, if they show it. So far, you've only seen a 'Viper' and a 'Raptor'. Both are way too small to transport much of anything.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Knife wrote:
StarshipTitanic wrote:
Quadlok wrote:Did it bother anyone else that no one even mentioned trying to recover the water they'd lost, rather than search for more? It isn't like water disapears when its vented into space.
Maybe they didn't have anything to collect water vapor with. Tigh said that they were looking for liquid water or ice, which would be easier to transport in a shuttle.
I'll be interested in what they send to get the ice, if they show it. So far, you've only seen a 'Viper' and a 'Raptor'. Both are way too small to transport much of anything.
In the scene from the mini where they close the launch bays, there are two old BSG style shuttles sitting there, and those are pretty big.
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Post by Knife »

I'm curious on manpower too. If using the numbers mentioned durring the show, to mean that the military only has ~2000 people in it, and that two thousand needs to be spread between the operation of the Galactica (a fucking huge ship, bigger I think than the original) and the Marines mentioned at the end of 'Water', then that really isn't that much if you take alook at what needs to be manned.

I think they've (writters) have seriously underestimated what it would take to crew a ship like that, even a skeleton crew for a museum. I hope they overcome this with serious and viewable recruitment in the next couple or they just won't have the manpower to do the show.

That or they'll need a people machine like Voyager had a people/shuttle machine. :P
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Knife »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
In the scene from the mini where they close the launch bays, there are two old BSG style shuttles sitting there, and those are pretty big.
Hmmm, missed those. Will be interesting if they use em, or if they're just easter eggs.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Knife wrote:I'm curious on manpower too. If using the numbers mentioned durring the show, to mean that the military only has ~2000 people in it, and that two thousand needs to be spread between the operation of the Galactica (a fucking huge ship, bigger I think than the original) and the Marines mentioned at the end of 'Water', then that really isn't that much if you take alook at what needs to be manned.

I think they've (writters) have seriously underestimated what it would take to crew a ship like that, even a skeleton crew for a museum. I hope they overcome this with serious and viewable recruitment in the next couple or they just won't have the manpower to do the show.

That or they'll need a people machine like Voyager had a people/shuttle machine. :P
This Galactica is 4640' according to the Sci Fi Channel site, which is 20 feet away from my own estimate of the original's length at 4620 feet, but the new one probably has more volume. We don't really understand how much of a battlestar is automated, though, so it's hard to figure out what size crew it should have.
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Post by RogueIce »

StarshipTitanic wrote:This Galactica is 4640' according to the Sci Fi Channel site, which is 20 feet away from my own estimate of the original's length at 4620 feet, but the new one probably has more volume. We don't really understand how much of a battlestar is automated, though, so it's hard to figure out what size crew it should have.
Didn't the miniseries point out rather specifically that it was less automated in order to keep the Cylons out?
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Post by Deathstalker »

I was thinking for the manpower issue, wouldn't it be cool to have two or three hundred people request to come aboard the ship, and when Adama asks why, the reply is that they are retirees or just those who had mustered out who are reporting for duty. We wouldn't really need to see them again.
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Post by SCVN 2812 »

RogueIce wrote:
StarshipTitanic wrote:This Galactica is 4640' according to the Sci Fi Channel site, which is 20 feet away from my own estimate of the original's length at 4620 feet, but the new one probably has more volume. We don't really understand how much of a battlestar is automated, though, so it's hard to figure out what size crew it should have.
Didn't the miniseries point out rather specifically that it was less automated in order to keep the Cylons out?
Not necessarily less automated but the computers that they have are not linked to minimize the threat of Cylon hacking as well as general paranoia about putting a lot of responsibility on fewer and fewer more and more powerful computers.
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Post by Knife »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
This Galactica is 4640' according to the Sci Fi Channel site, which is 20 feet away from my own estimate of the original's length at 4620 feet, but the new one probably has more volume. We don't really understand how much of a battlestar is automated, though, so it's hard to figure out what size crew it should have.
Conceed on the size, but if they have any sort of Marines onboard, that takes a hunk out of the 2000 for crew and actually vice versa.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Knife wrote:Conceed on the size, but if they have any sort of Marines onboard, that takes a hunk out of the 2000 for crew and actually vice versa.
The Galactica shouldn't carry too many Marines. I doubt they were expecting boarders or invaders anytime soon.
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Post by Broomstick »

Mayabird wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
Mayabird wrote:Everybody except for Boomer looked like hell. They'd been up for 130+ hours getting only short naps here and there.
Longest I've ever been awake was about 72 hours. I looked like shit. Then again, I was doing on sheer willpower and caffeine -- I didn't have the benefit of stronger chemical stimulants which was made apparent during the "take your pills" scene between Apollo and Starbuck, and later restated by Starbuck when they set up the patrol after the jump where the Cylons first broke the 33 minute cycle.
Hey, don't jump on me. I was just pointing that out, since Spanky was being an ass and bitching about how Callie looked like shit during the episode. Of course everybody's going to look like shit (except for Boomer the Cylon, and I did like how they were making those jokes). I look pretty shitty after an all-nighter, and that's just 24 hours awake.
Sorry, didn't mean for it to come across as jumping on anybody - was just comparing my experience to what they showed on BSG.

I'm not sure how anyone stays awake 5 days running - good drugs?

I don't know about anyone else, but around hour 56 I start seeing stuff - not big honkin' hallucinations or even fembots in tight red dresses, mostly just crawly stuff in my peripheral vision, but as time goes on it gets worse. That can't help anyone's efficiency.

BSG only has about two thousand military and some change - for a ship as big as that has to be, that's understaffed under the best of circumstances. Presumably, the Colonial Fleet took heavy losses in categories like fighter pilots, so they'll be stretched even thinner

Don't know about the civilians - I got the impression that BSG was calculating the jumps and relaying that information to the civilian ships. And we don't know how some of the civilian ships were staffed. Ships that would be in space for longer than one shift probably had multiple shifts on board already. Some of the civilian ships may be better staffed for day-to-day operations than the BSG.

I keep getting back to their numbers - IS 47,000-48,000 people enough to maintain a space-going civiliazation? A refuge fleet?

There is a theory, based on a lack of expected genetic diversity, that the human race went through a "bottleneck" of some a sort, a disaster leaving about 70,000 (more or less) survivors. So I guess it's not wildly implausible from a numbers viewpoint, but these folks are being systematically hunted down. Even if they get to makin' babies as soon as possible, that means almost a year before they get a substantial increase in numbers, they'll need to devote resources to raising those folks (not to mention food, water, air, and living space), and it'll be 15-20 years before the kids can fully step into high technical adult roles.

Even if there are other surivors who jumped away before the Cylons killed then, given the vastness of space they'll likely never encounter them.

Not a good situation -- but I suppose that's the point, isn't it?
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Post by Broomstick »

RogueIce wrote:Also, something to think about as the series goes on. They could've overstocked at that ammo dump, since they'd have more or less half the fighter capacity and less of a crew, so ammo might last for longer than normal (and they might have big ass magazines anyway, given their enemy's prime weapons seem to be missiles). But eventually they're gonna have to face the challenge of running out of ammo.
If they didn't pull on board every last bit of ammo or fuel they could they're damned fools.

Re-supply is a HUGE problem. Eventually everything wears out or runs out. They're past human space - there will be no more Ragnar achorages.

Let's say they need more bullets -- where do they get the raw material? Space, of course - it's not like there are alternatives. You have to find some sort of lump of appropriate material (possible - we know such things exist in our own solar system), catch it, refine it, shape it... they'll need a foundary of some sort. They'll probably have to convert a civilian ship.

Does anyone still alive have any clue how to locate, mine, refine, and process ores?

If not, do they have any sort of information on the process?

This is like the food problem - WHERE are they going to get food? Grow it? OK... that means either dirt or hydroponics, and I presume they have strictly limited supplies of either. Which means you either make dirt (mix dust with organic matter) or make chemicals (I didn't see a refinery ship, did you? Same problem as for metals), then devote some of their very finite space to growing food.

Colonel Tigh mentioned meat requirements -- I don't think they have the living space for that much of a food chain. Meat is a luxury they can't afford.

If they increase their numbers the living space problem becomes even worse - more cubic units needed for living bodies, less available for storage and processing of materials.

What they need to do is either find a safe haven to build a new colony (or colonies) or build new ships -- BUT, if those new ships don't have an FTL drive they're sitting ducks. How feasible is it for them to build a new FTL drive? Alternatively, could they expand the size of some ships?

Sure, they can hobble along as-is for a couple years (assuming the food and other stores hold out that long) but sooner or later things will start to run out. Then what?
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Post by Broomstick »

Quadlok wrote:Did it bother anyone else that no one even mentioned trying to recover the water they'd lost, rather than search for more? It isn't like water disapears when its vented into space.
Well, actually, it sorta does disappear....

Water vented into space rapidly converts to very tiny ice particles (as has been demonstrated by numerous ventings of urine into space in actual Earth orbit). It's not like you can go outside in a space suit and gather up chunks of it.

I would have expected some chunks of ice (I thought there should be some left when they were investigating the water tanks) but the vast majority of the water volume would be converted into a sort of icy steam. Even if they sent crew out with a bucket and shovel for the large lumps they'd still need to find more water to make up the difference.
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Broomstick wrote:Does anyone still alive have any clue how to locate, mine, refine, and process ores?
There's a mining ship in the fleet, but I don't know about a refinery ship. However, it would be plausable for a mining ship to be close to its refinery partner so both could be there.
Broomstick wrote:This is like the food problem - WHERE are they going to get food?
That's probably the biggest problem, and we might see a solution very soon since it was foreshadowed by Baltar during the strategy session in "Water." They have an agroship that's fairly large, but it looks more like a mobile park. Hydroponics shouldn't be too hard to set up in cargo bays of the bulk carriers. You're right about the meat, though.
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Post by Aeolus »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Does anyone still alive have any clue how to locate, mine, refine, and process ores?
There's a mining ship in the fleet, but I don't know about a refinery ship. However, it would be plausable for a mining ship to be close to its refinery partner so both could be there.
Broomstick wrote:This is like the food problem - WHERE are they going to get food?
That's probably the biggest problem, and we might see a solution very soon since it was foreshadowed by Baltar during the strategy session in "Water." They have an agroship that's fairly large, but it looks more like a mobile park. Hydroponics shouldn't be too hard to set up in cargo bays of the bulk carriers. You're right about the meat, though.
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Post by Mayabird »

Ah, okay. Sorry about being paranoid, Broomstick.

I have a slightly silly request. A friends told me that one of the ships in the fleet had a ripoff PanAm logo and is called PanGalactic, but I haven't seen it. Does anybody have a screenshot or a picture of it? I'm just oddly fond of seeing little puns and jokes like that stuck in.
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Post by Broomstick »

SciFi channel is re-showing everything from the mini-series through "water" today, starting at 2 pm my time (that's Central time zone, and I have DirectTV if that makes a difference to anyone). I'll see about spotting "easter eggs" this afternoon.
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StarshipTitanic wrote:That's probably the biggest problem, and we might see a solution very soon since it was foreshadowed by Baltar during the strategy session in "Water." They have an agroship that's fairly large, but it looks more like a mobile park. Hydroponics shouldn't be too hard to set up in cargo bays of the bulk carriers. You're right about the meat, though.
Hydroponics isn't that hard, 'tis true - my dad had a set-up in our basement when I was a kid, kept it going for years. Very low tech, but very effective - we didn't even have pumps, we had a system that worked with muscle power and gravity, the only power needed was for the supplemental lighting. That's was 30 years ago, today's hydroponics are much easier to use and more sophisticated, and I would expect the technology would be even further advanced for a space-faring race such as we see in BSG.

Yes, you can certainly set things up in trays. You'll need a substrate, but any sort of pebbles will do, and "space rocks" should be readily available. Ordinary basalt, for instance, should be available on various rocky bodies, as would various forms of silica. No problem. (We used to use cheap aquarium gravel, ground limestone, and such). But it's more than just "add water" - you need to add all the chemicals and nutrients required by the planets to the water that percolates/circulates on the plant roots. Including trace elements. If the plants are deficient in something, YOU will be deficient down the road. Not a problem for my family - our hydroponics supplemented our diet, we didn't depend on them for everything we ain't. In BSG, what they grow will be all they have. Where are they going to get those? You'll need a steady supply because the plants absorb it and incorporate these chemicals into their parts, so they need a constantly replenished supply - food for the plants, in other words.

No doubt some of it can be refined from human waste, but you can't use raw human waste, it will need to be processed. And given the inefficiency of biological systems, and the need to expand their "biosphere", they will need a source of fresh supply. Soon.

And while hydroponics works very well on leaf, stem, and fruit crops, it's not very good for root vegetables (as a general rule). There probably are techniques to grow root veggees hydroponically, but using dirt might be more efficient for any number of reasons. Certainly, if they have dirt already there's no reason not to use it. It would also give them a use for composting.

But with the hydroponics I used, we had to constantly be on guard for algae, mold, and various other fungi - periodically we had to sterilize the substrate (dad, being a guy, preferred a propane torch for this - I think he just enjoyed playing with fire :) ) Using hydroponics for a civilization's food supply, even if the power needed to run the lights and such is essentially unlimited, is still going to be labor-intensive. Either you use a lot of piping, tubing, pumps, etc. which will require checking and maintenance, or you use a low-tech system like my family did, which requires human labor. Actually, given the limited space for exercise, utilizing human labor would probably help maintain human health and strength.

BSG also has to be careful about putting all their eggs in one basket - they need more than one agroship, just in case they lose one. There's probably no reason they could utilize space on ALL ships for at least some hydroponics. People benefit psychologically from having green living stuff around them, and it would also help with oxygen recycling. May not help a lot but these folks are on the margin anyway, can't hurt, right? I could see trays of, say, strawberries on the BSG - don't require a lot of room, provide lots of healthy stuff like vitamin C and fiber, help recycle the air...

Depending on how much agro capacity they have already, it MIGHT be feasible to keep small stocks of, say, rats and rabbits for meat. Chickens - hens to lay eggs, then to the soup pot when too old for that, keep just a few roosters and eat the rest... Small livestock. People still need a source of B12, and that's animal-origin. But you won't see cows.
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Post by Knife »

Broomstick wrote: If they didn't pull on board every last bit of ammo or fuel they could they're damned fools.

Re-supply is a HUGE problem. Eventually everything wears out or runs out. They're past human space - there will be no more Ragnar achorages.
Agreed.
Let's say they need more bullets -- where do they get the raw material? Space, of course - it's not like there are alternatives. You have to find some sort of lump of appropriate material (possible - we know such things exist in our own solar system), catch it, refine it, shape it... they'll need a foundary of some sort. They'll probably have to convert a civilian ship.

Does anyone still alive have any clue how to locate, mine, refine, and process ores?

If not, do they have any sort of information on the process?
Which is one of the hurdles they sidestepped in the original by going with 'lasers'. The projectile weapons give the new one a different look, and a cool one too, but it will cause some problems down the road, especially the rate in which those thing pump out rounds.
This is like the food problem - WHERE are they going to get food? Grow it? OK... that means either dirt or hydroponics, and I presume they have strictly limited supplies of either. Which means you either make dirt (mix dust with organic matter) or make chemicals (I didn't see a refinery ship, did you? Same problem as for metals), then devote some of their very finite space to growing food.

Colonel Tigh mentioned meat requirements -- I don't think they have the living space for that much of a food chain. Meat is a luxury they can't afford.
I would assume that the Colonial fleet has some semblence of pre packaged rations for their deployments. MRE's if you will. If they stocked up at the depot, then it might be likely they stuffed as many 'emergency rations' as possible. These don't solve their food problem, just delays it a bit like the ammo and fuel problems.
If they increase their numbers the living space problem becomes even worse - more cubic units needed for living bodies, less available for storage and processing of materials.

What they need to do is either find a safe haven to build a new colony (or colonies) or build new ships -- BUT, if those new ships don't have an FTL drive they're sitting ducks. How feasible is it for them to build a new FTL drive? Alternatively, could they expand the size of some ships?

Sure, they can hobble along as-is for a couple years (assuming the food and other stores hold out that long) but sooner or later things will start to run out. Then what?
I don't know, with the sheer size of the Galactica and the various other ships in the fleet, and only ~50 thousand people, I really don't see to much problems with space. Air, water, fuel, and bullets yes. Space, no.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Knife
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Post by Knife »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
Knife wrote:Conceed on the size, but if they have any sort of Marines onboard, that takes a hunk out of the 2000 for crew and actually vice versa.
The Galactica shouldn't carry too many Marines. I doubt they were expecting boarders or invaders anytime soon.
Doesn't matter. Adama and the Pres were discussing sending Marines to the ships that were rioting over water. With only 2000 military personel, divided into command persone, pilots, engineers, maintance, assorted crew memebers, cooks, techies, and Marines, any chuck out of one leaves little for the others.

Even a skeleton crew for something the size of the Galactica should have been larger. If they don't wink and nod a couple thousand more people into the military, you're going to no have enough to run the ship/fighters ect....

They better show a huge recruitment effort soon or it will get to the Voyager redshirt/shuttle stage of unbelievability.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Jadeite
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Post by Jadeite »

Mayabird wrote:Ah, okay. Sorry about being paranoid, Broomstick.

I have a slightly silly request. A friends told me that one of the ships in the fleet had a ripoff PanAm logo and is called PanGalactic, but I haven't seen it. Does anybody have a screenshot or a picture of it? I'm just oddly fond of seeing little puns and jokes like that stuck in.
You can find it on the official website. Its the same type of ship like the Olympic Carrier that was destroyed.
Image
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StarshipTitanic
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Mayabird wrote:Ah, okay. Sorry about being paranoid, Broomstick.

I have a slightly silly request. A friends told me that one of the ships in the fleet had a ripoff PanAm logo and is called PanGalactic, but I haven't seen it. Does anybody have a screenshot or a picture of it? I'm just oddly fond of seeing little puns and jokes like that stuck in.
PanGalactic space liner
Broomstick wrote:Depending on how much agro capacity they have already, it MIGHT be feasible to keep small stocks of, say, rats and rabbits for meat. Chickens - hens to lay eggs, then to the soup pot when too old for that, keep just a few roosters and eat the rest... Small livestock. People still need a source of B12, and that's animal-origin. But you won't see cows.
That was a very informative post! I suppose we'll just have to wait until we get more info on the ships of the fleet.
Knife wrote:Doesn't matter.
Again, we don't know the level of automation onboard a battlestar, or even what it looks like on the inside. There could be a ton of null space.

A little (actually 600kb, sorry) graphic I made about the amount of Vipers the Galactica is carrying.
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