Babylon 5's best and worst moments

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Post by Junghalli »

Stofsk wrote:- Minimalism. Earth has only 10 billion people by the mid-23rd century. Mars has only 2 million (!) people after what, 2 centuries of colonisation? Also the number 250K gets repeated like JMS has a love affair with it. B5 has 250K transient population. The largest Narn colony has 250K pop. Kill count for the Earth Minbari war? 250K. SLOPPY WRITING.
The minimalism is in most respects not implausible. Earth's population explosion is levelling off, I would be surprised if it peaks at much higher than ten billion. And my impression of Mars was that the air was still unbreathable, which would make it rather hard to support a large population.
Agree about the 250K thing, especially the Earth-Minbari War having only 250K casualties. It ruins the whole dramatic feeling of it, it should have had millions of people die like WWII.
Addendum: in regards to minimalism under 'Ugly', also include Centauri Prime having a grand total of 3 BILLION people. Honest to god.
What's so bad about that? Maybe the Centauri don't breed as fast as humans? Maybe they didn't have a huge population explosion? Maybe they just like to keep their population in check so they can have more room? Three billion people is a perfectly respectable population for a homeworld; Earth had less than one sixth that for most of human history. What do you want, every planet to look like Coruscant?
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Post by Nephtys »

Well, Centauri prime has smaller cities from what we've seen. No sprawling Manhattan-style metropolis, but rather a lot more of 'well decorated, highly elegant' towns, like you'd find in say.. Italy. It fits with their entire (for the most part) lifestyles of elegance, pride, and a pinch of hedonism.

I don't see why 3 billion isn't that bad a number, given what we know. Perhaps the landscape is also less inhabitable, having more deserts or oceans? Perhaps the planet is smaller, period. Perhaps many more centauri live off-world than Humans do comparatively...
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Post by The Wookiee »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I thought that was where Kartagia, the mad emperor, died. G'kar got loose and killed Reefa, which was the distraction, but Vir killed Kartagia at the same time.
You're getting your episodes confused. And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place was where Refa was killed by angry Narns. Cartagia was killed in The Long Night, when G'Kar broke out of his chains, providing enough distraction for Vir to kill Cartagia.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

The Wookiee wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I thought that was where Kartagia, the mad emperor, died. G'kar got loose and killed Reefa, which was the distraction, but Vir killed Kartagia at the same time.
You're getting your episodes confused. And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place was where Refa was killed by angry Narns. Cartagia was killed in The Long Night, when G'Kar broke out of his chains, providing enough distraction for Vir to kill Cartagia.
Its been a while, I guess. I could've sword it was all in one episode.
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Post by The Wookiee »

Batman wrote:I agree some of the dialogue was...not fit to comment upon but what was wrong with the special effects? They were certainly not Oscar material but I rather liked the PPG effects,
Moving lens flares don't really impress me.
Batman wrote:and one of the things I'm proud of B5 for is that they didn't even try to make the CGI space battles look real and instead apparently went 'They're going to look CGI anyway. Let's make it GOOD CGI!'.
That's exactly my problem with the effects. They LOOKED like CGI. It was downright amateurish at times.
Batman wrote:About the only complaint I have is that in some of them, considering the number of vessels involved, the intensity of fire exchanged is rather on the low side ('Into the Fire' comes to mind).
That's another thing. When the Whitestar fired, it looked like it was shooting candy.
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Post by Skylon »

The Wookiee wrote:
Batman wrote:and one of the things I'm proud of B5 for is that they didn't even try to make the CGI space battles look real and instead apparently went 'They're going to look CGI anyway. Let's make it GOOD CGI!'.
That's exactly my problem with the effects. They LOOKED like CGI. It was downright amateurish at times.
Well, it was the first TV show to fully use computer generated visual effects. The problem was, with the scope of the show, they couldn't blow all their budget on one really, really cool effects shot in an episode, and had to go for a ton of half-decent ones.

I seem to recall some of the over the hill trekkies at the time saying Star Trek would always stick with models and never go CGI. B5 showed what you could do with CGI on a shoe-string budget in the mid 90's, we're seeing today what can be done with a good budget.

The PPG blasts I always liked simply because they weren't typical sci-fi weapons fare, like Star Wars blaster bolts, beams like Star Trek's phasers or, the safe old "bullets still in use" approach of films like "Aliens".

On a side note, this was something I always felt was bad about Babylon 5 and is tied to the effects was our conception of the station itself. I bought that Babylon 5 was a "self-contained world". You can see they tried for it, in the shots of the zen garden that show us the core, but most of it is shot in typical wall sets that could just as easily be any space ship. In season 2 they even added windows to Sheridan's office and Londo's quarters showing the gardens of the station, but its something I feel was never well portrayed.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Skylon wrote:The PPG blasts I always liked simply because they weren't typical sci-fi weapons fare, like Star Wars blaster bolts, beams like Star Trek's phasers or, the safe old "bullets still in use" approach of films like "Aliens".
They were also retarded. If they heated the air quickly enough to change its index of refraction in their bow wave, this heat would not instantly dissipate as they pass.

And quite frankly, I've grown to hate anything in space that carries the word "organic". It smacks of a flimsy excuse to use low-complexity models and tell people that the cheesy squid-like things are actually better than real-looking ships because of that whole "organic technology" brainbug.
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Post by Nephtys »

Darth Wong wrote:
Skylon wrote:The PPG blasts I always liked simply because they weren't typical sci-fi weapons fare, like Star Wars blaster bolts, beams like Star Trek's phasers or, the safe old "bullets still in use" approach of films like "Aliens".
They were also retarded. If they heated the air quickly enough to change its index of refraction in their bow wave, this heat would not instantly dissipate as they pass.

And quite frankly, I've grown to hate anything in space that carries the word "organic". It smacks of a flimsy excuse to use low-complexity models and tell people that the cheesy squid-like things are actually better than real-looking ships because of that whole "organic technology" brainbug.
I figured it was better than real ships, because of being oh.. hideously more advanced by the order of thousands of years? References to Vorlon organic technology could be interpereted as such by humans, but could be other things in reality. Polymorphic materials, with expert systems/AI would be close to what they display. It's not like they're explicitly showing ships with organs.

After all, the White Stars were 'organic', but had very clear conventional machinery running the thing. It was the material in the hull that repaired itself and adapted over time, tis all.

and DW, you're not being fair to the PPG. At least they made it so even a glancing hit causes horrendous thermal damage, like G'Kar's shoulder, or Garibaldi's injury. More believable character injury shields than 'Phasers always set to stun on a main character' or 'Staff weapons never, ever hit, except to glance theighs' or 'Oops, my blaster knicked your wrist/shoulder'
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

I figured it was better than real ships, because of being oh.. hideously more advanced by the order of thousands of years?
I thought it was billions of years?
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Post by Stofsk »

Junghalli wrote:
Stofsk wrote:- Minimalism. Earth has only 10 billion people by the mid-23rd century. Mars has only 2 million (!) people after what, 2 centuries of colonisation? Also the number 250K gets repeated like JMS has a love affair with it. B5 has 250K transient population. The largest Narn colony has 250K pop. Kill count for the Earth Minbari war? 250K. SLOPPY WRITING.
The minimalism is in most respects not implausible. Earth's population explosion is levelling off, I would be surprised if it peaks at much higher than ten billion. And my impression of Mars was that the air was still unbreathable, which would make it rather hard to support a large population.
It is the ridiculousness of having 10 billion people on Earth and a mere 2 million on Mars, who we are often told is the EA's biggest colony. Fine if Earths population leveled off. (I would like to know how, but whatever) But if you settle a planet for 200 years why do you only have a smaller population than New Zealand?

Nevermind the fact that B5, a space station that was constructed in a few years, can support 250K population. So the 'air isn't breathable' angle doesn't matter, because no one said they had to live in the Martian sky. They can live in pressure domes for all I care. If B5 the space station can have such a high population for being ~8KM long, and be constructed in so short a time, then why can't Mars have a population in the tens, or hundreds of millions? It is meant to be the second-biggest EA planet.
What's so bad about that? Maybe the Centauri don't breed as fast as humans? Maybe they didn't have a huge population explosion? Maybe they just like to keep their population in check so they can have more room? Three billion people is a perfectly respectable population for a homeworld; Earth had less than one sixth that for most of human history. What do you want, every planet to look like Coruscant?
Not quite like Coruscant, but the Centauri Republic has been around for hundreds of years. Again, like with Earth, I would like to know what happened to all that population.

Fine if there was never a population explosion, or it leveled off. Or if Centauri Prime is the noble's capital and all the plebes live on the colonies (kind of a small section of a modern city being the 'rich suburbs' while everywhere else is poor or middle-class, or if Centauri Prime is the 'Forbidden City' of the Republic). It still strikes me as too little.

The other reason I disliked it was due to the context we were given in the show. Sheridan had to choose where to deploy his fleet, and he chose some unknown planet called 'Coriana 6' because it had 6 billion population, while Centauri Prime had 3 billion. Coriana 6 is never seen, never heard from again, and no Coriana-ian is ever introduced to the show. So how does Sheridan know about them? And why should we as an audience give a shit about them? Meanwhile we have seen Centauri Prime, we know what it is and we know who the Centauri are.

I personally would have found the whole end of the Shadow War taking place in orbit of Centauri Prime to be more fitting than some unknown backwater.
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Post by Netko »

But the whole point was that Centauri Prime was left compleatly undefended. That allowed the whole Londo and Vir angle of the story - and that was one of the most emotionaly packed parts of the whole shadow war, the final sceen where Londo is telling Vir to shoot him and tell the Vorlons that the corruption has been cleared was one of the strongest showings of Londo's patriotism - he was willing to do anything to make the Centauri strong again or, in this case, for them to survive - be it making a deal with the devil (shadows, shadow minions in the 5th season - drakh? ) or dieing himself for it. It is one of the reasons why even when he is playing the bad guy (more or less all the time, to some degree) he is a very likeable character.

The whole Centauri Prime pop. numbers is explained in the context of the overall decay of their Empire. Basicly, they became compleatly decadent and let power slip from them. I think it's actualy mentioned that their pop. numbers fell over the years. Also, because they have been in space for a long while as a expansionalistic empire their colonies have higher (proportionaly) population then colonies of most of the other races. All of this is IIRC from JMS's posts about the episodes.
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Post by NecronLord »

mmar wrote:But the whole point was that Centauri Prime was left compleatly undefended.
They weren't entirely successful. The Vorlon fleet could be seen flying through the torn up remains of Centauri starships.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Nephtys wrote:I figured it was better than real ships, because of being oh.. hideously more advanced by the order of thousands of years? References to Vorlon organic technology could be interpereted as such by humans, but could be other things in reality. Polymorphic materials, with expert systems/AI would be close to what they display. It's not like they're explicitly showing ships with organs.
Lyta, aka a formal representative of the Vorlon Empire, said quite clearly that the ships were organic, remember? And it doesn't change the fact that it looks fucking stupid to have a goddamned squid in space.
After all, the White Stars were 'organic', but had very clear conventional machinery running the thing. It was the material in the hull that repaired itself and adapted over time, tis all.
What the hell are you talking about? You saw the machinery that ran the WhiteStar? Which episode was this? I don't recall ever seeing any machinery operating inside the White Star. As far as we can tell, it's just filled with hallways.
and DW, you're not being fair to the PPG. At least they made it so even a glancing hit causes horrendous thermal damage, like G'Kar's shoulder, or Garibaldi's injury. More believable character injury shields than 'Phasers always set to stun on a main character' or 'Staff weapons never, ever hit, except to glance theighs' or 'Oops, my blaster knicked your wrist/shoulder'
Are you retarded or something? How does this affect my criticism of the visual effect in any way? And what the hell is this "believable" damage bullshit you're talking about? Garibaldi took a full-on direct hit right in the back, genius. If that were a blaster, a phaser, an SG-1 staff, or a modern handgun, he'd be dead.

Frankly, from your criticisms it sounds like you're making up bullshit to defend the show and hoping that I'm not familiar enough with it to know that you're lying.
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Post by NecronLord »

Darth Wong wrote:an SG-1 staff, he'd be dead.
Hell no. Those things have even been seen to shoot main characters in the back and not even stop them walking around a few hours later.
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Post by Darth Wong »

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:an SG-1 staff, he'd be dead.
Hell no. Those things have even been seen to shoot main characters in the back and not even stop them walking around a few hours later.
Sorry, I don't even watch the show. I was thinking of the Kurt Russell movie.
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Post by NecronLord »

Darth Wong wrote:Sorry, I don't even watch the show. I was thinking of the Kurt Russell movie.
Ah yes. The movie ones were much more effective.
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Post by Skylon »

Darth Wong wrote: What the hell are you talking about? You saw the machinery that ran the WhiteStar? Which episode was this? I don't recall ever seeing any machinery operating inside the White Star. As far as we can tell, it's just filled with hallways.

The closest I ever recall to "machinery" is a few interior shots of the White Star of a compartment that appears to be an engine room (some pods pulsating with energy). But that's about it. And I really wouldn't count mystery pods aglow as machinery.
Are you retarded or something? How does this affect my criticism of the visual effect in any way? And what the hell is this "believable" damage bullshit you're talking about? Garibaldi took a full-on direct hit right in the back, genius. If that were a blaster, a phaser, an SG-1 staff, or a modern handgun, he'd be dead.
Lower, back, looked like the right-kidney as I remember the episode. I'm not very sharp on medical issues, but I'd say he should be dead also from a wound like that and the duration of time before he got medical attention (he had to crawl his ass out of down below).

Of course injuries have never been a strong suit of many sci-fi works. Hell, I'd argue in neo-BSG Cdr. Adama should be dead right now after getting two bullets pumped into him.
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Post by Nephtys »

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:an SG-1 staff, he'd be dead.
Hell no. Those things have even been seen to shoot main characters in the back and not even stop them walking around a few hours later.
Daniel takes a pretty bad arm hit, which explodes on him with enough force to push him around. He's next seen using that woulded hand about five minutes later. Compare this to when the staves blast through concrete and rock walls... character shields, Daniel! :P
DW wrote:Are you retarded or something? How does this affect my criticism of the visual effect in any way? And what the hell is this "believable" damage bullshit you're talking about? Garibaldi took a full-on direct hit right in the back, genius. If that were a blaster, a phaser, an SG-1 staff, or a modern handgun, he'd be dead.
I'm talking that if someone gets hit by a PPG, it's never portrayed in the few cases that it's happened to a main character, as a minor injury. The only two cases I can think of was G'Kar getting massively screwed, and Garibaldi was fatally injured effectively. In my post, I never mentioned anything regarding the visual effect, just to note that at least it doesn't do the 'Main characters never get touched, save a flesh wound' stuff.
DW wrote:What the hell are you talking about? You saw the machinery that ran the WhiteStar? Which episode was this? I don't recall ever seeing any machinery operating inside the White Star. As far as we can tell, it's just filled with hallways.
The White Star was said to only have had it's hull provided by the Vorlons, the rest was machine/crystalwank/whatever Minbari stuff. Since I don't think the ship runs on Corridordrive, that's all.
DW wrote:Lyta, aka a formal representative of the Vorlon Empire, said quite clearly that the ships were organic, remember? And it doesn't change the fact that it looks fucking stupid to have a goddamned squid in space.
Organic describes a lot of things. You can take it in it's literal meaning, which would point towards space squid, or you can use other meanings like 'has properties associated with living things'. Organic chemical compounds are non-living, but are labeled such. There's no evidence that the polymorphic hull and such are really literally a living entity, or if it's just technology that behaves as such.
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Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

I believe the low population of Centauri Prime was caused by a war with another sentient species ( The Xon) on their planet over a thousand years ago in their timeline. After wiping out the Xon, their population must have also been nearly destroyed in the process, since every year they celebrate their survival as a species instead of mourning those who were lost.

Either that or the Centauri has hidiously low birthrates despite having six..... appendages.
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Post by Lord Revan »

Actually only top Armor of the whitestar is Organic the rest of the hull is Ceramic (minbari tech).
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Post by Dalton »

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Sorry, I don't even watch the show. I was thinking of the Kurt Russell movie.
Ah yes. The movie ones were much more effective.
SG-1 Staff weapons still have their fair share of kills - check out "The Nox", "Heroes" and "Orpheus". If Garibaldi had been hit in the back like that with a Staff weapon, he would have been killed.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:an SG-1 staff, he'd be dead.
Hell no. Those things have even been seen to shoot main characters in the back and not even stop them walking around a few hours later.
When?

All I can remember is Teal'c in Exodus and he died.
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Post by NecronLord »

Crazedwraith wrote:All I can remember is Teal'c in Exodus and he died.
There but for the grace of god. Despite Alt-Teal'c's staff punching big holes in blast doors, all he does is wound Daniel Jackson, and by the end of the episode, several hours at most, Jackson's up, walking, and ready to go.

Would you care for a screenshot?
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Post by Crazedwraith »

NecronLord wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:All I can remember is Teal'c in Exodus and he died.
There but for the grace of god. Despite Alt-Teal'c's staff punching big holes in blast doors, all he does is wound Daniel Jackson, and by the end of the episode, several hours at most, Jackson's up, walking, and ready to go.

Would you care for a screenshot?
Fair enough but it hit his shoulder not his back. Still the arm should have come off.
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Post by NecronLord »

Crazedwraith wrote:Fair enough but it hit his shoulder not his back. Still the arm should have come off.
If staff weapons had consistant effects, it should have burnt all the way through him.
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