Palpatine vs. the God Emperor of Mankind (WH40K)

[18-Till-I-Die]

The fact a Bloodthirster was able to injure, for a second or two, a Primarch (Sanguinus) is quite impressive. One Primarch supposedly lifted a mountain and carried it for a while on his back (Iron Hands Manus if i recall).

Of course i'm not sure if all Primarchs are created equal, but i havent raed anything that says otherwise either.

[NecronLord]

Well, don't be so sure that Wankatine couldn't take out at least a lesser Bloodthirster. Those critters can be blasted with anti tank weapons and Wankatine's force storms can take out battlefleets - and those are Wars ships with neutronium laced armour.

Unfortunately, uber-super-hyper-wankatine was finally destroyed by Han Solo shooting him in the back. Any non-Khornate greater demon would just end him right away by looking at his askance and filletting him, as he is clearly not immune to physical damage.

[Lord Zentei]

Well, don't be so sure that Wankatine couldn't take out at least a lesser Bloodthirster. Those critters can be blasted with anti tank weapons and Wankatine's force storms can take out battlefleets - and those are Wars ships with neutronium laced armour.

Unfortunately, uber-super-hyper-wankatine was finally destroyed by Han Solo shooting him in the back. Any non-Khornate greater demon would just end him right away by looking at his askance and filletting him, as he is clearly not immune to physical damage.

They can fillet each other then (as can a close combat Terminator and a trooper with a meltagun). To be fair though, that particular incarnation of Palps was already in pretty bad shape from being in a genetically unstable clone body, as I recall.

[NecronLord]

They can fillet each other then

The demons can do it with a sideways glance. Palpatine, in contrast, seems to preffer either a lightsaber, or a relatively tiring force-lightning barrage to kill someone who's in close to him.

[Lord Zentei]

They can fillet each other then

The demons can do it with a sideways glance. Palpatine, in contrast, seems to preffer either a lightsaber, or a relatively tiring force-lightning barrage to kill someone who's in close to him.

Though overconfident, Palpatine is not a complete idiot, and Bloodthirsters can be banished by lesser beings. Sorry, I really can't see this as a foregone conclusion.

[NecronLord]

Though overconfident, Palpatine is not a complete idiot,

Oh yes he is. I-will-use-myself-as-bait ring a bell? I do believe that there have been many highlightings of his numerous Dr Evil style 'you just don't get it, do you Scott' moments on this board, but I could recap in the morning if you want.

He is successful at deception only because he has extensive power. He's not even very cunning at all. Suppose Anakin decided to kill him? He let Anakin hold a lightsaber to his neck. One hand twitch, and the Sith are destroyed. What if Captain Needa had done just a little more damage to the Invisible Hand and he'd been slammed into the ground at hypersonic speed?

[Lord Zentei]

Though overconfident, Palpatine is not a complete idiot,

Oh yes he is. I-will-use-myself-as-bait ring a bell?

Indeed. As I pointed out myself in another thread currently active in this very forum. However, it pays not to assume that your opponent is going to be stupid:


Advesary: Now I shall ambush the overconfident Palpatine where he stands in the middle of the room and slay him. KSAAAA! - Huh? Where is he?

Palpatine: PWNED!!! <Force Storm> <Drop invisibility cloak>

Advesary: <hack, cough!> I... I was overconfident...

Palpatine: Yes... Ironic, isn't it? Oh, and Mwa ha haa!

[NecronLord]

it pays not to assume that your opponent is going to be stupid:

In planning, no, but in vs. we do it all the time. Just like we presume that the United Federation of Planets won't immediately smarten up in a vs, introduce virus scanners, proper ground forces, real doors on their cells, etc etc ad infinitum, we don't presume that Palpatine will act smarter than he canonically did.

[technomage]

Unfortunately, uber-super-hyper-wankatine was finally destroyed by Han Solo shooting him in the back. Any non-Khornate greater demon would just end him right away by looking at his askance and filletting him, as he is clearly not immune to physical damage.

Yeah, and then Empatojayos Brand had to absorb Palpy's soul and imprison it while he died, thus dragging Sidious into death once and for all. Otherwise, Sidious would have just taken a new body, most likely Anakin Solo.

And whether a Force soul is anything like a Warp soul is highly questionable.

[Lord Zentei]

it pays not to assume that your opponent is going to be stupid:

In planning, no, but in vs. we do it all the time. Just like we presume that the United Federation of Planets won't immediately smarten up in a vs, introduce virus scanners, proper ground forces, real doors on their cells, etc etc ad infinitum, we don't presume that Palpatine will act smarter than he canonically did.

Bit different since the issue at hand was more power levels than anything. See the post that spawned this tangent.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Still not sufficient for a logical argument. A little difference goes a long long way in a fight, as you may find out if you take up a martial art. If you imply that the number of "<" symbols means something, you are implying you have at least a rough quantification (normally one '<' means less than, while '<<' implies order(s) of magnitude less than. '<<<' and up don't mean anything in particular that I'm aware).

Possibly, but we can get a vague grasp of the power level involved.
We would know that the Death star had better firepower than a ship that can't blast through planets for example even if something was changed in the scene to make quantification difficult (Shooting near a black hole or with a overchargeding malfunction etc').
Another example is that someone who can laugh off (Be totally unaffected by) a nuclear bombing will be tougher than someone who can resist quite easily a grenade (With a small blast radius), due to the fact that while both may be shown in a way that's all but impossible to quantify, the nuclear bomb would be shown as far larger than the grenade and there would be no migitigating circumstances for us to think that the grenade creates a small black hole.
Nuclear bomb of any size>>>Hand grenade [which merely makes a moderate explosion] in other words.

Yeah, and then Empatojayos Brand had to absorb Palpy's soul and imprison it while he died, thus dragging Sidious into death once and for all.

Saying that a warp demon can't catch a soul travelling through the force is very arguable. (Especially considering the similiarities between the pre chaos gods warp and the force [especially the dark side]).

Advesary: Now I shall ambush the overconfident Palpatine where he stands in the middle of the room and slay him. KSAAAA! - Huh? Where is he?

then blast the whole damn room apart.

Palpatine: PWNED!!! <Force Storm> <Drop invisibility cloak>

Force storms need concentration, Palpatine has not shown the ability to multitask while using one.
In addition where has he shown invisibility?
The fight with Luke in front of Leia is allmost certainly a blur due to the speeds involved (As I have said before when I mentioned the damn fact in the first place from the DE audiobook).

Well, don't be so sure that Wankatine couldn't take out at least a lesser Bloodthirster.

Lesser being one a few dozen meters tall outside of the warp? (Just checking to see that I understand you- that's a bottom of the rung thirster)

Those critters can be blasted with anti tank weapons and Wankatine's force storms can take out battlefleets - and those are Wars ships with neutronium laced armour.

While palpatine can be blasted and killed by a blaster or a lightsaber.
Also, when has Palpatine used a forcestorm fast enough to be useful against his immediate opponent? (For example when fighting Luke- he used the storm on the Rebel fleet, not the two jedi in front of him)

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, don't be so sure that Wankatine couldn't take out at least a lesser Bloodthirster. Those critters can be blasted with anti tank weapons and Wankatine's force storms can take out battlefleets - and those are Wars ships with neutronium laced armour.

Unfortunately, uber-super-hyper-wankatine was finally destroyed by Han Solo shooting him in the back. Any non-Khornate greater demon would just end him right away by looking at his askance and filletting him, as he is clearly not immune to physical damage.

You realize this was also at the point where his body had degenerated horribly (which was in part due to excessive force usage, and also in partt to direct sabotage done on his clones.) He was also quite clearly mad at that point in the comics.

[NecronLord]

You realize this was also at the point where his body had degenerated horribly (which was in part due to excessive force usage, and also in partt to direct sabotage done on his clones.) He was also quite clearly mad at that point in the comics.

Meh. If Luke's lightsaber wouldn't bounce off him, he would still be vulnerable to all the various means of inflicting physical damage available to the demons..

Of course, this is a weakness he somewhat shares with the Emperor (it was physical wounds that did for him) but the Emperor managed to continue fighting long after his body had been truly fucked over by warp-magic. That's why the Emperor of Man is actually better off on the Golden Throne - he's in much less physical danger than he was walking around.

Yeah, and then Empatojayos Brand had to absorb Palpy's soul and imprison it while he died, thus dragging Sidious into death once and for all. Otherwise, Sidious would have just taken a new body, most likely Anakin Solo.

Doesn't really matter. If he has to keep ressurecting, and die whenever he goes near his enemy, that counts as a loss, no?

And whether a Force soul is anything like a Warp soul is highly questionable.

Not quite. They are quite dissimilar, but I'd count it as such for vs purpouses, mainly because people tend to assume that one form of magic/psi/whatever can interact with another.

[Kojiro]

[quote=""18-til-I-Die]Of course i'm not sure if all Primarchs are created equal, but i havent read anything that says otherwise either.[/quote]
It's clear from their differing powres at the least they're not all created the same. Sanguinius for example was capable of flight, which indicates some sort of variation in his musclature (anyone have any idea what he'd need to keep himself aloft?). Then again, perhaps his wings were useless and his flight came from advanced anti-grav devices in his armour but I'm pretty sure he flew on his own.

Either it seems reasonable to assume that the various blends of powers either enhanced or diminished the primarchs. It seems unlikely they made some with powers and some without if there was nothing to be lost.

It's also worth noting that the primarchs did have a nice litte trip through the warp as babies, which may or may not be the source of their 'powers'. Even if they were created equal it seems some were enhanced and possibly some diminshed.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It's clear from their differing powres at the least they're not all created the same

Agreed, they had different specialities and temperaments, there was also a difference in the amount of time it took them to take over the planet they landed on. (Granted, this can also be attributed to the difference between the planets).
However Horus was stated to be far above Sanguinius even before his enhancement so we have that for a fact.

[Lost Soal]

Of course i'm not sure if all Primarchs are created equal, but i havent read anything that says otherwise either.

It's clear from their differing powres at the least they're not all created the same. Sanguinius for example was capable of flight, which indicates some sort of variation in his musclature (anyone have any idea what he'd need to keep himself aloft?). Then again, perhaps his wings were useless and his flight came from advanced anti-grav devices in his armour but I'm pretty sure he flew on his own.

Either it seems reasonable to assume that the various blends of powers either enhanced or diminished the primarchs. It seems unlikely they made some with powers and some without if there was nothing to be lost.

It's also worth noting that the primarchs did have a nice litte trip through the warp as babies, which may or may not be the source of their 'powers'. Even if they were created equal it seems some were enhanced and possibly some diminshed.

Sanguinius' wings were fully functional, and had been from the age of 1 or 2 yrs. All the Primarchs had different abilities, strength and speed. For example during the fight between Russ and El'Johnson, where told that Russ was a bit stronger while Johnson was faster.

[NecronLord]

Sanguinius probably had the same as demons do - demonic flight. Namely, while the wings aren't up to the job, they serve a psychosomatic purpouse in what is actually warp-powered flight.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I vote for the Immortal Turk.

[Lord Zentei]

Still not sufficient for a logical argument. A little difference goes a long long way in a fight, as you may find out if you take up a martial art. If you imply that the number of "<" symbols means something, you are implying you have at least a rough quantification (normally one '<' means less than, while '<<' implies order(s) of magnitude less than. '<<<' and up don't mean anything in particular that I'm aware).

Possibly, but we can get a vague grasp of the power level involved.

No, we cannot!

We would know that the Death star had better firepower than a ship that can't blast through planets for example even if something was changed in the scene to make quantification difficult (Shooting near a black hole or with a overchargeding malfunction etc').
Another example is that someone who can laugh off (Be totally unaffected by) a nuclear bombing will be tougher than someone who can resist quite easily a grenade (With a small blast radius), due to the fact that while both may be shown in a way that's all but impossible to quantify, the nuclear bomb would be shown as far larger than the grenade and there would be no migitigating circumstances for us to think that the grenade creates a small black hole.
Nuclear bomb of any size>>>Hand grenade [which merely makes a moderate explosion] in other words.

Arguing from analogy is bad, mmmkay? What you need is concrete examples.

---------------------------------

The following are only of passing interest, as it is a bit of a tangent.

Advesary: Now I shall ambush the overconfident Palpatine where he stands in the middle of the room and slay him. KSAAAA! - Huh? Where is he?

then blast the whole damn room apart.

What are you attempting to argue here?

Palpatine: PWNED!!! <Force Storm> <Drop invisibility cloak>

Force storms need concentration, Palpatine has not shown the ability to multitask while using one.

Wow. Place the first <> behind the second. Assuming you are correct.

In addition where has he shown invisibility?
The fight with Luke in front of Leia is allmost certainly a blur due to the speeds involved (As I have said before when I mentioned the damn fact in the first place from the DE audiobook).

No, as NL has pointed out, it was a power. And in any case, even if you are correct quanntification would still be needed here, since blur like movement is an advantage.

Well, don't be so sure that Wankatine couldn't take out at least a lesser Bloodthirster.

Lesser being one a few dozen meters tall outside of the warp? (Just checking to see that I understand you- that's a bottom of the rung thirster)

Don't presume to lecture me on 40K, kiddo. Nor did I unequivocally state that Palpatine would win, merely that the difference is not automatically as high as you seem to assume.

Those critters can be blasted with anti tank weapons and Wankatine's force storms can take out battlefleets - and those are Wars ships with neutronium laced armour.

While palpatine can be blasted and killed by a blaster or a lightsaber.
Also, when has Palpatine used a forcestorm fast enough to be useful against his immediate opponent? (For example when fighting Luke- he used the storm on the Rebel fleet, not the two jedi in front of him)

When has Palpatine used a forcestorm fast enough against his immediate opponent - except when he has. SNORE! There was no rebel fleet in the Bloodthirster scenario that needed toasting.

If the force storm can toast SW fleets, it can toast a Bloodthirster. End of issue. The only question is who gets the first shot in.

----------------------------------------------

PS:

Couldn't say about Aslan, given that I haven't read the Narnia Chronicles, though one can presumably infer lower limits at least indirectly. There is a good number of anecdotes about the accomplishments of the various heroes and villains of the Imperium, though.

And now having watched the flic, I can suggest that the upper limit involves his inability to defeat an army of several thousand minions of evil without help from several thousand talking animals and four British kids from the 1940s.

[Lord Zentei]

When has Palpatine used a forcestorm fast enough against his immediate opponent - except when he has. SNORE! There was no rebel fleet in the Bloodthirster scenario that needed toasting.

If the force storm can toast SW fleets, it can toast a Bloodthirster. End of issue. The only question is who gets the first shot in.

And to clarify this: the first paragraph refers to the fact that this is a combat power and has been used as such on numerous occations.

The second is not meant as a continuation of the first, but more a summary on the issue, especially the previous point (re. the fact that BTs are 12 m tall, yadda yadda).

[Utsanomiko]

WRAAAGH

Seriously, you're such a tool.

[The Grim Squeaker]

WRAAAGH

Seriously, you're such a tool.

It's WAAAAAAAgh

What are you attempting to argue here?

That you should just destroy the room rather than wander into a trap, throw a grenade in (For example), or keep your guard up.

No, as NL has pointed out, it was a power. And in any case, even if you are correct quanntification would still be needed here, since blur like movement is an advantage.

True (As I said), but how do we quantify "Really fast, I can't see them move"?

Don't presume to lecture me on 40K, kiddo.

Sorry O revered Farseer

or did I unequivocally state that Palpatine would win, merely that the difference is not automatically as high as you seem to assume.

Then how big is it? When even Palaptine's force storms are nothing compared to the Emperor's wrath Palaptine really does not have a chance in 100 fights.

When has Palpatine used a forcestorm fast enough against his immediate opponent - except when he has. SNORE! There was no rebel fleet in the Bloodthirster scenario that needed toasting.

If the force storm can toast SW fleets, it can toast a Bloodthirster. End of issue. The only question is who gets the first shot in.

When did he do it in a fight with opponents near him, he didn't use it against Luke/Leia, and it required concentration- hardly a rapid fire attack (Same reason a ritual type spell in D&D will get you killed if you try it while being threatened by multiple melee fighters- you don't have the breathing room for it, even if you can destroy a castle [for example] or lift a mountain top given time and opportunity).

And now having watched the flic, I can suggest that the upper limit involves his inability to defeat an army of several thousand minions of evil without help from several thousand talking animals and four British kids from the 1940s.

Technically it's roaring/singin the world of Narnia [not just Narnia] into existence without any trouble, and while being limited by his Father the Emperor over the sea.
He's basically Illuvatar/Jesus light (He all but states that he is Jesus in our world- "I have many guises").

The White witch had eaten from a tree that made her part of creation as well as granting power, wishes and eternal youth), which was why Aslan couldn't destroy her until later on.

[18-Till-I-Die]

WRAAAGH

Seriously, you're such a tool.

And what, pray, does that mean? I spelled it wrong or something?

What did i say something insulting, am i missing a joke, what?

[Duckie]

And what, pray, does that mean? I spelled it wrong or something?

What did i say something insulting, am i missing a joke, what?

There's no R in WAAAAAGH.

[NecronLord]

Technically it's roaring/singin the world of Narnia [not just Narnia] into existence without any trouble, and while being limited by his Father the Emperor over the sea.
He's basically Illuvatar/Jesus light (He all but states that he is Jesus in our world- "I have many guises").

Neither Aslan nor Jesus (or his Biblical father, who managed, taking the bible literally, to create a flat world) have demonstrated powers on the order of Ilúvatar's - even discounting Tolkien's statements that he's omnipotent he has demonstrated the capability to preform instant (though of course, having his own timestream, this is meaningless) reshaping of the universe from a one planet flat earth to a cosmos like our own. It is incorrect to claim that either are comparable in the scope of their abilities.