Melee weapons

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2003-01-04 11:52pm

Want a melee weapon how bout this...

A good old fashion spiked brass knuckles, i heard these could cause internal bleeding..

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-04 11:56pm

Dennis Toy wrote:Want a melee weapon how bout this...

A good old fashion spiked brass knuckles, i heard these could cause internal bleeding..

Only trouble would be...you walk menacingly towards your opponent, who then thrusts with a steel tipped quarterstaff....and breaks at the very least a couple of ribs...possibly your sternum if you are unlucky.....or....if it were me, the throat.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-05 01:00am

I actually prefer knives. Fast, concealable. Plus if only using one, the arm can still be used in unarmed attacks (there are some nasty Aikido moves using one empty hand and a knife...person ends up flat on their stomach with a knife under their ribs on one side). People actually die more from knife wounds than bullet wounds because of the extra blood loss, and in a pinch they can be thrown a decent distance with proper technique. I'm no weapons master, but I like knives, then staff, then sword (those are the three weapons of my art, so I don't know that much about most others).

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2003-01-05 03:59am

Speaking of gun/sword combinations...

I once saw a cutlass with a pistol built into the grip running parallel with the blade. I imagine it would be a nasty surprise when he thinks he's parried the blow...

And why not just use a tetsubo if you want a steel-tipped quarterstaff?

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2003-01-05 04:29am

Meh, not really the same thing. A tetsubo is more of a mace with an elongated head. I'm sure it's a fine weapon, but also slower and not as versatile. A steel-shod quarterstaff is made to be harder and more rigid, not heavier so much. Even just a steel cap will transmit the force of the strike better.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-01-05 05:05am

The Roman combination of a large tower shield and a Gladius (short thrusting sword) always seemed particularly effective combination to me. The large shield can block your opponents blows (from pretty much any concivable angle), and then you just go for the killing blow in one good stab.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-07 12:34am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:The Roman combination of a large tower shield and a Gladius (short thrusting sword) always seemed particularly effective combination to me. The large shield can block your opponents blows (from pretty much any concivable angle), and then you just go for the killing blow in one good stab.

Have you ever seen a Falcata? Its an old iberian sword, rather nasty, think a reverse scimitar, the blade is along the inside of the curve, it allows you to strike behind a shield.....similarly, anyone with an axe will kick your ass seven ways from sunday if you try and use a tower shield.....the main reason the romans were effective with such was thier usual opponents were individual warriors with long swords. The romans fought in formation allowing in general, three of them to be facing off with one opponent (the greater room required to manouver the long sword meaning that the celts were more spread out).

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-07 12:47am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:The Roman combination of a large tower shield and a Gladius (short thrusting sword) always seemed particularly effective combination to me. The large shield can block your opponents blows (from pretty much any concivable angle), and then you just go for the killing blow in one good stab.

The shield only really worked in formation, though. The right side of the body was left exposed, and the shield was too heavy to be easily maneuverable. Legions were infamous for shuffling to the right during battle as each man tried to maneuver behind the shield of the man to his right. The front right corner of each column had the highest casualty rate, as they were most exposed.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-07 01:02am

Chinese spear or pole-arm...

Once you know the techniques to use them, goddamn you can rip shit up from quite a-ways away.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-07 01:18am

The Dark wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:The Roman combination of a large tower shield and a Gladius (short thrusting sword) always seemed particularly effective combination to me. The large shield can block your opponents blows (from pretty much any concivable angle), and then you just go for the killing blow in one good stab.
The shield only really worked in formation, though. The right side of the body was left exposed, and the shield was too heavy to be easily maneuverable. Legions were infamous for shuffling to the right during battle as each man tried to maneuver behind the shield of the man to his right. The front right corner of each column had the highest casualty rate, as they were most exposed.

To demonstrate the fact that the usefulness of the tower shield and gladius is dependant on formation more than individual combat, you need only look at the disastarous outing of the legions into what is now Germany. They were ambused in forest terrain on the march and were unable to form up....and as a result were slaughtered mericlessly.

Dargos · Post by **Dargos** » 2003-01-07 02:16am

Nothing beats the good ol' Knife On A Long Stick(TM) i.e. spear, pike, lance, polearm, glave, ect ect. Proven effective in field enviroments and combat for thousands of years.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-07 02:05pm

Clearwater from the Amtrack Wars designed a pretty cool weapon.

She took an average quaterstaff, Added a iron end and a machette blade to the other end, along the shaft she added the barbs of crossbow bolts. This enabled the user to either kill or just shatter bones, the barbs were used to parry or trap any attack from a bladed weapon.

FX · Post by FX » 2003-01-07 02:42pm

Anyone thought of what modern metalurgy would do to melee weapons? Things like tungsten carbide coating the cutting edge to increase sharpness.

I've read that titanium is too weak per cubic centimeter to produce a normal blade. You could make such a blade, but to get it as strong as steel you would need the blade to be much larger.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » 2003-01-07 03:05pm

Actually, almost nobody in modern times, despite superior mettalurgy, can make a sword as well as they could in the middle ages in Europe.

All those swords you see in the movies... around 8 pounds, or aluminium and to weak to be useful. A watered-steel longswrod made back in fuedal times was about 2-3 pounds, with the balance point only inches abouve the crossguard.

As to whats the best weapon... No such thing. What's best depends on the situation, the opponent, and the environment.

If you're going up against a guy in plate armor armed with a sword and sheild, your ideal is going to be a mass weapon of some sort (a warhammer, pick, axe, etc...) combined with a good round sheild. Or alternatelya greatsord or a doppelhander used in half swording style.

In a one-on-one duel against an unarmored opponent, a rapier is a good choice.... just so long as you don't go into it expecting to be able to effectivel parry the other guys Longsword.

A full blown battle trying to stop a charge of heavy horse? Better have some pikemen up front to recieve the charge or you're fucked.

In a bar with a short ceiling and little room to manuver... throw away that otherwise deadly quarterstaff or longsword and grab a shorter weapon...

Need to get through a wall of pike or spear so you can engage the enemy up close where you have the advantage... put a bunch of really big guys up front armed with Doppelhanders where they can literally chop the tips of the enemies weapons off and open a hole for your forces to get through.

But in any case, every weapon has it's merits and it's purpose, and every weapon is the best weapon for a given situation. They were all developed by people who had to use them and tested in battle for hundreds of years, so they all work, and work well. If you use them properly.

(Oh, and to whoever commented about spears being the wepon of choice... a large part of that has to do with cost and ease of use... one guy with a spear or pike against someone skilled with a longsword is not typically a good idea.)

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-07 07:16pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Clearwater from the Amtrack Wars designed a pretty cool weapon.

She took an average quaterstaff, Added a iron end and a machette blade to the other end, along the shaft she added the barbs of crossbow bolts. This enabled the user to either kill or just shatter bones, the barbs were used to parry or trap any attack from a bladed weapon.

Its good in theory, but one of the strengths of the quarterstaff is in the handling that can be done, otherwise an opponent can move within your reach.

Moonstone Spider · Post by **Moonstone Spider** » 2003-01-07 08:17pm

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but what about a Chainsaw? Granted it's not a standard weapon but I'm willing to bet it would make hash of just about any armor or melee weapon your opponent could bring to the field.

Anyway one problem with pole-arms and maces and the like is their weight. In the field you're going to be lugging those suckers through woods, across ditches and creeks, etc. That's a pain. For melee work give me a dagger, if somebody shows up with a broadaxe I'll run away, (Not carrying such weight I'll be faster) then when they camp cut their throat in their sleep. A good secondary Melee weapon would be a jar of poison, to be applied to food, weapons, or whatever. I'm not really much for playing fair in real-life combat.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2003-01-07 08:30pm

Moonstone Spider wrote:I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but what about a Chainsaw? Granted it's not a standard weapon but I'm willing to bet it would make hash of just about any armor or melee weapon your opponent could bring to the field.

I've never seen a chainsaw do more than scratch metal armor under combat conditions.

Anyway one problem with pole-arms and maces and the like is their weight. In the field you're going to be lugging those suckers through woods, across ditches and creeks, etc. That's a pain. For melee work give me a dagger, if somebody shows up with a broadaxe I'll run away, (Not carrying such weight I'll be faster) then when they camp cut their throat in their sleep. A good secondary Melee weapon would be a jar of poison, to be applied to food, weapons, or whatever. I'm not really much for playing fair in real-life combat.

That would work against one person. Groups can keep a more effective lookout. All that a dagger is good for is very close combat or murders. Battles require heavier weapons.
Additionally, you'd be amazed at how fast a healthy person can run with large weapons in hand. Your speed advantage is not as great as you would wish.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-07 08:32pm

Moonstone Spider wrote:I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but what about a Chainsaw? Granted it's not a standard weapon but I'm willing to bet it would make hash of just about any armor or melee weapon your opponent could bring to the field.

That presupposes that you get to hit your opponents weapon rather than them hitting your hand as you try to wield the chainsaw.....

Anyway one problem with pole-arms and maces and the like is their weight. In the field you're going to be lugging those suckers through woods, across ditches and creeks, etc. That's a pain. For melee work give me a dagger, if somebody shows up with a broadaxe I'll run away, (Not carrying such weight I'll be faster) then when they camp cut their throat in their sleep. A good secondary Melee weapon would be a jar of poison, to be applied to food, weapons, or whatever. I'm not really much for playing fair in real-life combat.

A dagger is a good weapon, but well made swords etc are not as heavy as people seem to believe....neither is armour. It is possible (provided you're able to do it in the first place) to turn cartwheels in full plate armour....dont count on a lighter weapon garunteeing you can out distance someone.....

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2003-01-08 06:32pm

I read somewhere that the most deadly melee weapon is a katana in trained hands? Certainly their craftmanship is (present tense...many of the things are still around, despite being centuries old) incredible, and easily cut a man in half.

As an aside, I once saw a WWII US Army pamphlet instructing what to do when faced with an sword-weilding enemy trained in classical Western swordsmanship. I doubt they faced many in Europe, but I wonder how many casualties were caused by katanas in the Pacific, since Jap officers definitely carried katanas around with them...

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-08 07:50pm

kheegan wrote:I read somewhere that the most deadly melee weapon is a katana in trained hands? Certainly their craftmanship is (present tense...many of the things are still around, despite being centuries old) incredible, and easily cut a man in half.

As an aside, I once saw a WWII US Army pamphlet instructing what to do when faced with an sword-weilding enemy trained in classical Western swordsmanship. I doubt they faced many in Europe, but I wonder how many casualties were caused by katanas in the Pacific, since Jap officers definitely carried katanas around with them...

The superiority of the katana is a terrible brain bug.....did you know the katana is one of the easiest types of blade to shatter?
The way it is created resuts in a very hard cutting edge and a soft back edge, hit the back of the blade with force and it will break. Dont believe highlander etc where you see a katana take on heavy european weapons....if you connect anything but edge on even once you can kiss your katana goodbye.....

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-08 07:55pm

kheegan wrote:As an aside, I once saw a WWII US Army pamphlet instructing what to do when faced with an sword-weilding enemy trained in classical Western swordsmanship. I doubt they faced many in Europe, but I wonder how many casualties were caused by katanas in the Pacific, since Jap officers definitely carried katanas around with them...

I forgot before to add this....I'm guessing this was relating to the marines?
By classical western swordsmanship the marines tend to mean that awful style of theirs known as west point, it is an almost completely useless style against anyone with skill in using a blade.
West point is in reality a variation on sabre styles and the movements they incorporate are geared towards cavalry use....which in part means very poor defense for the legs. There are other deficences in the style, the footwork taught in it is no good and the style makes poor use of attacks and blocks compared to every other I've encountered.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2003-01-08 08:06pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
kheegan wrote:I read somewhere that the most deadly melee weapon is a katana in trained hands? Certainly their craftmanship is (present tense...many of the things are still around, despite being centuries old) incredible, and easily cut a man in half.

As an aside, I once saw a WWII US Army pamphlet instructing what to do when faced with an sword-weilding enemy trained in classical Western swordsmanship. I doubt they faced many in Europe, but I wonder how many casualties were caused by katanas in the Pacific, since Jap officers definitely carried katanas around with them...
The superiority of the katana is a terrible brain bug.....did you know the katana is one of the easiest types of blade to shatter?
The way it is created resuts in a very hard cutting edge and a soft back edge, hit the back of the blade with force and it will break. Dont believe highlander etc where you see a katana take on heavy european weapons....if you connect anything but edge on even once you can kiss your katana goodbye.....

But I thought that no trained kenjutsu swordsman would ever use his back edge in combat? Because it seems to me that in samurai combat the risk of getting the katana shattered is the same as in combat against a European weapon. Even in kendo the shinai has a clearly defined "cutting edge"...

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-08 08:20pm

But I thought that no trained kenjutsu swordsman would ever use his back edge in combat? Because it seems to me that in samurai combat the risk of getting the katana shattered is the same as in combat against a European weapon. Even in kendo the shinai has a clearly defined "cutting edge"...

You dont delibretly let your opponent hit the back edge...but if you are using another weapon against a katana then you have a very good chance of shattering it, particular if you use a less angular style.
Also, melee weapons such as a well made flail can be used to hit the back edge easily.
No weapon is perfect or inherently better than any other in terms of melee combat....the best for a situation and a particular warrior is all you can hope for.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-08 08:30pm

kheegan wrote:I read somewhere that the most deadly melee weapon is a katana in trained hands? Certainly their craftmanship is (present tense...many of the things are still around, despite being centuries old) incredible, and easily cut a man in half.

As an aside, I once saw a WWII US Army pamphlet instructing what to do when faced with an sword-weilding enemy trained in classical Western swordsmanship. I doubt they faced many in Europe, but I wonder how many casualties were caused by katanas in the Pacific, since Jap officers definitely carried katanas around with them...

Very few. Japanese officer also had a habit of leading attacks and charges with them. The lead guy charging troops armed with automatic and semi automatic weapons doesn't last long. I'd bet twice or more times swords got shipped home with returning troops then inflicted wounds.

jodathalas · Post by **jodathalas** » 2003-01-08 09:09pm

Chains with blades on the end. I forget what they are called. They are cool though.