Planetoid vs. Culture ship

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-14 12:50am

100,000 people going nuts and breaking shit manually would probably come under the heading of serious impairment of combat capabilities. Under those circumstances the Planetoid's computer may have no choice but to set Condition Red 1.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-14 12:52am

consequences wrote:100,000 people going nuts and breaking shit manually would probably come under the heading of serious impairment of combat capabilities. Under those circumstances the Planetoid's computer may have no choice but to set Condition Red 1.

Which is?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-01-14 01:01am

fgalkin wrote:
consequences wrote:100,000 people going nuts and breaking shit manually would probably come under the heading of serious impairment of combat capabilities. Under those circumstances the Planetoid's computer may have no choice but to set Condition Red 1.
Which is?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Condition Red One is, presumably, self destruct. The next lowest is Condition Red Two, which involves all sections of the ship being flooded with radioactive and chemical agents. Red 1 seems a bit... draconian, for a situation like this.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-14 01:03am

XaLEv wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
consequences wrote:100,000 people going nuts and breaking shit manually would probably come under the heading of serious impairment of combat capabilities. Under those circumstances the Planetoid's computer may have no choice but to set Condition Red 1.
Which is?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Condition Red One is, presumably, self destruct. The next lowest is Condition Red Two, which involves all sections of the ship being flooded with radioactive and chemical agents. Red 1 seems a bit... draconian, for a situation like this.

Great, the Culture effectorizes the crew, causing the planetoid to self-destruct. Mission accomplished.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-01-14 01:18am

I seriously doubt that a Planetoid would self destruct just because its crew's gone wacky.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-14 01:22am

It depends on how wacky. If none of the crew are in environment suits, then Red Two Internal will kill them all, and their is no need to self destruct. However, if none of the crew are in encounter suits during a fight, then humanity deserved to be exterminated by the Aku'Ultan in that universe.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-14 09:07am

One important question:

how do an effector penetrate a shield ?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-14 12:35pm

It doesn't seem to have any trouble with the Culture's various shields, and we already know that a planetoid shield doesn't cover absolutely everything from their own ability to pop hypermissiles past them.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-14 03:32pm

consequences wrote:It doesn't seem to have any trouble with the Culture's various shields, and we already know that a planetoid shield doesn't cover absolutely everything from their own ability to pop hypermissiles past them.

Pretty strange device... if Culture can block displacers ( wormholes / dimensional transfers within the ship ), they should be able to block a effector...

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-14 10:29pm

Culture shields can't block the effector of a more advanced vessel to any real extent, the battle in Excession proved that pretty well. There are varying degrees depending upon what year the Culture vessel in question is from, but just about any Culture Mind could turn Dahak inside out before he could even perceive something going wrong.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-14 10:36pm

consequences wrote:Culture shields can't block the effector of a more advanced vessel to any real extent, the battle in Excession proved that pretty well. There are varying degrees depending upon what year the Culture vessel in question is from, but just about any Culture Mind could turn Dahak inside out before he could even perceive something going wrong.

I completely second that.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-15 06:36am

consequences wrote:Culture shields can't block the effector of a more advanced vessel to any real extent, the battle in Excession proved that pretty well. There are varying degrees depending upon what year the Culture vessel in question is from, but just about any Culture Mind could turn Dahak inside out before he could even perceive something going wrong.

Unfortunately Dahak has similar reaction times than a Culture mind, Dahak can measure/perceive the dwell times of the enchanach drive ( measured in femtoseconds ). And if culture cannot block an wormhole/extradimensional attack ( that's the only way you can get EM energy into the shields without getting through ), that's not the Imperiums problem.
The 5th Imperium has shields to deal with attacks from other dimensions, their shields block hundreds of such planes at once to counter hypermissiles.

In addition to this noone has provided an evidence that an Effector can do something except manipulate small electric charges in the opponent, which would be total ineffective against the 5th Imperiums computers.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-15 06:46am

HRogge wrote:
consequences wrote:Culture shields can't block the effector of a more advanced vessel to any real extent, the battle in Excession proved that pretty well. There are varying degrees depending upon what year the Culture vessel in question is from, but just about any Culture Mind could turn Dahak inside out before he could even perceive something going wrong.
Unfortunately Dahak has similar reaction times than a Culture mind, Dahak can measure/perceive the dwell times of the enchanach drive ( measured in femtoseconds ). And if culture cannot block an wormhole/extradimensional attack ( that's the only way you can get EM energy into the shields without getting through ), that's not the Imperiums problem.
The 5th Imperium has shields to deal with attacks from other dimensions, their shields block hundreds of such planes at once to counter hypermissiles.

In addition to this noone has provided an evidence that an Effector can do something except manipulate small electric charges in the opponent, which would be total ineffective against the 5th Imperiums computers.

The Trapdoor system negates any chance the Imperium craft has of getting munitions through the Culture defence grid.

Additonally, since Culture Minds work in hyperspace and use practically every type of quantum particle to work with(Ref: CP, Exc) and can be effectorised then Dahak hasn't a chance.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-15 08:26am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The Trapdoor system negates any chance the Imperium craft has of getting munitions through the Culture defence grid.

Imperium missiles don't get through the defense grid, they come out of hyperspace within the defense grid. Would be interesting for a Culture ship to be INSIDE the event horizon of a black hole.

Additonally, since Culture Minds work in hyperspace and use practically every type of quantum particle to work with(Ref: CP, Exc) and can be effectorised then Dahak hasn't a chance.

They work in hyperspace to use the higher speed of light ( that's what someone told me ). They can be manipulated by an effector ( which is described as an EM manipulator. That does say nothing about the abilities of Dahak (esp. in the "new" version ).

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-15 08:41am

HRogge wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:The Trapdoor system negates any chance the Imperium craft has of getting munitions through the Culture defence grid.
Imperium missiles don't get through the defense grid, they come out of hyperspace within the defense grid. Would be interesting for a Culture ship to be INSIDE the event horizon of a black hole.

Be interesting to see the missile even do this from another dimension which it will inevitably end up in as soon as it even tries to appear in or near the Culture vessel.

Additonally, since Culture Minds work in hyperspace and use practically every type of quantum particle to work with(Ref: CP, Exc) and can be effectorised then Dahak hasn't a chance.

They work in hyperspace to use the higher speed of light ( that's what someone told me ). They can be manipulated by an effector ( which is described as an EM manipulator. That does say nothing about the abilities of Dahak (esp. in the "new" version ).

They can and have worked through hyperspace to work against other units (Ref: Exc) so why would they not work in hyperspace if they only used it to travel FTL? Seems a bit silly like saying an infrared remote doesn't work through water, just air.

Khemri · Post by **Khemri** » 2003-01-15 09:20am

You people do know that Hypermissiles only move at 4000 c. It will be childsplay for any Culture ship to dodge it.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-15 09:48am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
HRogge wrote:Imperium missiles don't get through the defense grid, they come out of hyperspace within the defense grid. Would be interesting for a Culture ship to be INSIDE the event horizon of a black hole.
Be interesting to see the missile even do this from another dimension which it will inevitably end up in as soon as it even tries to appear in or near the Culture vessel.

Would be a matter of timing. If only one missile explodes before the trapdoor gets it the Culture ship is in DEEP shit. Nothing works in an instant...

They work in hyperspace to use the higher speed of light ( that's what someone told me ). They can be manipulated by an effector ( which is described as an EM manipulator. That does say nothing about the abilities of Dahak (esp. in the "new" version ).
They can and have worked through hyperspace to work against other units (Ref: Exc) so why would they not work in hyperspace if they only used it to travel FTL? Seems a bit silly like saying an infrared remote doesn't work through water, just air.

*arg* I said that the fact that minds work in hyperspace doesn't make them "better" than Imperium computers. According to the "effector = EM manipulator" theory ( that's the only thing I heared that has been said in the books ) Minds work with electrical circuits ( but VERY advanced and small ones ). Imperium computers don't work with electricity at all, so the Effectors might be totally ineffective.

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Khemri wrote:You people do know that Hypermissiles only move at 4000 c. It will be childsplay for any Culture ship to dodge it.

Just as easy as a planetoid use it's enchanach drive to dodge something from the Culture ship. They just don't stay long enough in the same position...

In the end it's just the question how fast a Culture/Imperium ship can ACTIVATE it's engine if surprised... as soon as both are flying the battles would be very boring.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-15 09:52am

The Culture has never said the Effectors work only on electrons, just that they are energy manipulation fields from the human brain to Minds and since Minds have mechanical, positronic and god knows what else for computing power, I'd say they were more than capable of a variety of feats.

The Trapdoor system is also always on, unless you have permission, nothing enters the ship. Simple as.

There is also the point that Culture weapons generally have a time-in-flight of zero since they can be sent via wormhole, meaning instantly all the while the Culture vessel can be circling around at several lightyears distance.

It would be an interesting battle.

Kosh_The_Vorlon · Post by **Kosh_The_Vorlon** » 2003-01-15 12:46pm

::sighs::

Gridfire, people...

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-15 03:48pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The Culture has never said the Effectors work only on electrons, just that they are energy manipulation fields from the human brain to Minds and since Minds have mechanical, positronic and god knows what else for computing power, I'd say they were more than capable of a variety of feats.

The Trapdoor system is also always on, unless you have permission, nothing enters the ship. Simple as.

The trapdoor system is an active defense system, so it has a reaction time.

There is also the point that Culture weapons generally have a time-in-flight of zero since they can be sent via wormhole, meaning instantly all the while the Culture vessel can be circling around at several lightyears distance.

It would be an interesting battle.

Nearly zero time-in-flight... nothing happens instantly. Even the creation of the wormhole ( which might be blocked by hypershieldtech ) would take some SHORT time. Short, but more than zero.

Even the creation of Gridfire would take some time, and with sensors which can scan other dimensions you might be able to get away before the energy of the grid kills you !

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-15 05:06pm

HRogge wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
HRogge wrote:Imperium missiles don't get through the defense grid, they come out of hyperspace within the defense grid. Would be interesting for a Culture ship to be INSIDE the event horizon of a black hole.
Be interesting to see the missile even do this from another dimension which it will inevitably end up in as soon as it even tries to appear in or near the Culture vessel.
Would be a matter of timing. If only one missile explodes before the trapdoor gets it the Culture ship is in DEEP shit. Nothing works in an instant...

They Acualtani noticed the missle appearing inside them before they carved chunks off. I'd say, even if ittook only seconds, that a Mind could react in time.

Khemri · Post by **Khemri** » 2003-01-15 08:22pm

I found some interesting quotes about Hypermissiles on page 90 of The Armageddon Inheritance.

Active defenses engaged the attackers. Hyper Missisles were useless, for the could not home on evading targets, so sublight counter missiles raced to meet them, blossoming in megaton bursts as proximity fuses activated. Eye-searing flashes pocked the holographic display, and red dots began to die

So let's review.

1)Culture Ships out range 5thI Ships by quite way
2)Culture Ships almost always fight at FTL, Planetoids mostly fight at STL.
3)Hyper Missiles are useless againts .78 C STL missiles, good luck hitting a ROU Zooming around at 200,000 C
4)A Mind can react a hell of a lot faster than a human captain. Planetoids are commanded by humans.
5)A Plantoid is not going to survive a goddamn blackhole, these are ships whose shields buckle againts a few hundred 10GT M/AM warheads.

As it stands, 5thI Ships do not have the reaction time to deal with any Culture weapons being thrown their way. And please provide proof that Effectors and Displacers would not work againts Planetoids.

Shrike · Post by **Shrike** » 2003-01-16 03:57am

HRogge wrote:One important question:

how do an effector penetrate a shield ?

Sometimes, by overwhelming the shield and punching through, othertimes, by going through a wormhole (I seem to recall them doing that once, I may be wrong)

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-01-16 05:03am

Khemri wrote: 5)A Plantoid is not going to survive a goddamn blackhole, these are ships whose shields buckle againts a few hundred 10GT M/AM warheads.

Planetoids regularly survive many repeated black hole impacts; that's what gravitonic warheads are. The 10GT M/AM warheads are also probably focused in a similiar fashion to proton torpedoes based on my reading of the one described hull impact.

As it stands, 5thI Ships do not have the reaction time to deal with any Culture weapons being thrown their way.

They can manoeuvre while in Enchanach drive. That would require being able to implement course changes during the 0.75 femtosecond dwell time. Even if the course change is pre-planned, as I understand it not even the Culture can remotely compare to that capability.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-16 05:27am

[quote="Stormbringer]They Acualtani noticed the missle appearing inside them before they carved chunks off. I'd say, even if ittook only seconds, that a Mind could react in time.[/quote]

The Accuultani ( similar to the 5th Imperium ) have sensors to predict the coming of an object from hyperspace.

The fact that a hypermissile can detonate inside solid matter shows that the detonation happens at the same time the missile comes back from hyperspace.

Much less time than a second.