Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:
Captain Gavin Bledsoe sat in his own command chair, watching the icons on his plot move steadily closer, and an odd, euphoric terror gripped him. He, too, saw the shell of light attack craft maintaining careful watch on Grayson One and Queen Adrienne, and he'd heard enough about the recently declassified craft to know how lethal they were. He didn't know any details about armament, power plants, or electronics; the Alliance wasn't in the habit of handing out that sort of information in the middle of a war. But he knew his ore freighter could never evade them if they came after him.
Some of the new-model LACs, I'd use Ferrets, escorting the VIPs.
Or, hell, they might be the Katana-class or prototypes of same. We know Grayson uses roughly the same LAC mix as Manticore, but the very existence of the Katanas proves they're not identical.
The underground, at least some Masadans are helping to police their fellows. Once again Masada is far more populous than Grayson, the wonder of living on a planet that isn't trying to kill you constantly.
Or at least not trying very effectively; Masada has hellacious weather but it's just weather, not arsenic.
Two missiles inside a sublight asteroid hauler. Operation Hassan realized. Saint-Just cultivated these Masadan contacts so one day he could initiate a key assassination or bit of sabotage in the Yeltsin system. In this case, the missiles will home in on the beacons inside Elizabeth and Mayhew's gifted memory stones. Though, really, how and why Saint-Just would arrange those contacts after the last time Haven and Masada tried working together, I cannot say.
He may be working through Solarian cutouts, so the Masadans do not know the plan is Haven-backed. He may be using separate InSec channels that have been established in Masada for decades and have nothing to do with the military mission. Also note that as far as I can recall, Haven never actually betrayed Masada- so the Masadans might not be as soured on Haven as you'd think.
"Vampire! Vampire! Inbound missiles, bearing zero-three-zero zero-zero-two from Grayson One!"
Good thing Honor is both suspicious and easily bored.
That's a good combination.
Solly stealth systems, at least in this one case with a surprise launch from spitting distance, are good enough to baffle Manty point defense.
Yes. At least with a recon drone. I think Weber may have forgotten that later in the series, especially since these are or really ought to be Ghost-Rider-capable LACs.
She started to bark an order, but the screen commander had already seen what she had, and his own order beat her to it. The countermissiles vanished from her plot as the LACs which had launched them sent the self-detonation commands, and she breathed a sigh of relief as she managed to find the missiles again.
Countermissiles ineffective, and the first time I can remember missiles self-destructing on command from their mother-ship, though they've always had the capability. Keeps them from flying into planets or into deep space.
Honestly, blind-firing salvoes of countermissiles along the incoming threat vector would have a pretty good chance of killing the missiles; missile wedges are not narrow and you could easily sweep a volume several hundred kilometers wide with a barrage of them. But... yeah, I could see it either way.
The weapons pursuing the yachts were the best Solarian hardware money could buy, but they were special-use devices, not regular weapons of war, designed for ambush scenarios. The people who'd designed them for the Solarian League Navy had waxed poetic about the capabilities they would confer upon the SLN. The SLN Weapons Division, however, had taken one look at them, yawned, and passed, for they were useful only as ambush weapons against an unsuspecting foe. Worse, their slow speed made them sitting ducks when their seekers were forced to go active over the last portion of their attack run.

The SLN's rejection, however, had left the firm who'd designed them with a large R&D expenditure and no legal way to recoup it. Because the weapons incorporated the very latest SLN stealth technology, their sale to anyone but the SLN was an act of treason, but no one really worried about that. The firms who built and equipped the SLN's warships had gotten into the habit of ignoring the technology transfer prohibition clauses in their contracts centuries ago, and no one had ever gotten more than a slap on the wrist for it. So when Oscar Saint-Just's StateSec representatives on Old Earth went shopping, an obliging salesman pointed them straight at the rejected weapons.
The obvious reasons the SLN doesn't use these missiles, the homing beacon lets them get away with no active emissions, other wise they'd have to light up in the last minute or two of flight and probably lose surprise. But wait til you hear why Oscar wanted them.
Although this really does suggest that SLN stealth should be reasonably effective against RMN systems... at least close to parity, or this shouldn't work. This is, after all, equivalent to a League recon drone being able to sneak that close to a Manticoran starship.
If it was a contact nuke, she would probably survive, for her impeller wedge, though much smaller than Grayson One's, was just as impenetrable. But if the weapon was a laser head and detonated even slightly above or below her ship, it was virtually certain to kill her.
Except that its lasers would be pointed at Grayson One, not her... so I'm not sure about that part.
20 MT nuke versus civilian craft, a most miraculous rescue, the royals are safe. A significant part of the Centrist Government, however, is dead.
At that range?

The X-ray and neutron flux from a twenty-megaton spherical blast, at fifty kilometers, would be something like... energy release is 7.8*10^16 joules, thank you this source for the percent of the energy release that is instantaneous and would actually hit anything in the immediate term.

Energy is spread over a sphere fifty kilometers in radius, with surface area four pi times r squared... 31.4 billion square meters.

2.5 megajoules per square meter, in one big thwack. Which is, I'm pretty sure, noticeably worse than you'd get from one second flying through interplanetary vacuum at 0.8c. I forget where I did the calculation on that, but I did once.

Ow.
"I submit to you," Elizabeth continued, "that however firmly united you may be at this moment, your fundamental policies and principles are too basically opposed for that unity to last. You can, if you choose, use it at this moment to ignore my wishes, but you do so at your peril, for it will come to an end . . . and the Crown will still be here."

There was a moment of dead silence, and even High Ridge sounded slightly shaken when he broke it.

"Is that a threat, Your Majesty?" he asked almost incredulously.

"It is a reminder, My Lord. A reminder that the House of Winton knows its friends . . . and also those who are not its friends. We Wintons have long memories, Baron. If you truly wish to have me as an enemy, it can certainly be arranged, but I urge you to think very carefully first."
Also note, Elizabeth III has basically no interest in compromising with any of these people. As I noted when putting in House of Steel quotes last year, it seems pretty clear that the House of Winton and its rearmament program have been headbutting with the Liberals and to a lesser extent the Conservatives, and so firmly in bed with the Centrists, for so long that there is basically no chance of them being anything but polarized at a crucial moment.
Impotent fury, for now, anyway. And so we get a High Ridge Government. Baron High Ridge shall be the new PM, New Kiev the Exchequer. The Progressive leader Descroix gets to be Foreign Secretary, even Pavel Young's little brother Stefan gets to be Minister of Trade. Janacek, the First Space Lord who intentionally tried to cripple Roger IIIs military buildup, assigned only screwballs to Basilisk Stations etc. is back on the horse.
Intentionally cripple? Hm?
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Ahriman238
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

He'd been bitterly disappointed when the preliminary reports indicated that Benjamin Mayhew and Elizabeth III had both escaped, and he'd ground his teeth when he discovered who'd made that possible. There were very few points upon which Oscar Saint-Just and the late, unlamented Cordelia Ransom had ever been in perfect agreement, but Honor Harrington was one of them. The only difference between Saint-Just and Ransom was that Saint-Just would simply have had her quietly shot and stuffed in an unmarked grave without ever admitting he'd even seen her.

But as the first, fragmentary reports about the domestic Manty reaction to Hassan came in, Saint-Just had begun to realize it might actually be better this way. If he'd gotten Elizabeth and Benjamin but not Cromarty, Elizabeth's son would simply have assumed the throne with the same Government in place. At best, the result would have been only to delay the inevitable, not stop it. But by killing Cromarty and leaving Elizabeth alive, Saint-Just had inadvertently created a totally different situation. When the Manty Opposition's leadership announced its decision to form a government which excluded Cromarty's Centrists and the Crown Loyalists, a dazzling opportunity had landed squarely in Oscar Saint-Just's lap, and he had no intention of letting it slip away.
So here's something he never could have pulled on the old Centrist Government.

"We just received a dispatch boat, My Lord. From the Peeps."

"From the Peeps?" White Haven repeated very carefully, and she nodded.

"Yes, Sir. She came over the hyper-wall twenty-six minutes ago. We just picked up her transmission five minutes and—" she glanced at a chrono of her own "—thirty seconds ago. It was in the clear, Sir."

"And it said?" he prompted as she paused as if uncertain how to proceed.

"It's a direct message from Saint-Just to Her Majesty, My Lord," Granston-Henley said. "He wants— Sir, he says he wants to convene peace talks!"
A historic message, even if not precisely sent in good faith. Oscar would love peace, just long enough to cement his rule and duplicate Eighth Fleet's technology.

"Your Majesty, violence never settled anything," Home Secretary New Kiev said. The countess looked uncomfortable under the scornful glance the Queen turned upon her, but she shook her own head stubbornly. "My opposition to this war has always been based on the belief that peaceful resolution of conflicts is vastly preferable to a resort to violence. If the previous government had realized that and given peace a chance following the Harris Assassination, we might have ended the fighting ten years ago! I realize you don't believe that was possible, but I and many of the others in this room do. Perhaps you were right at the time and we were wrong, but we'll never know either way, because the opportunity was rejected. But this time we have a definite offer from the other side, a specific proposal to end the killing, and I feel we have an imperative moral responsibility to seriously consider anything which can do that."

" 'Specific proposal'?" Elizabeth repeated, and jabbed a contemptuous index finger at the memo pad before her. "All he proposes is a cease-fire in place—which neatly saves him from the loss of Lovat and his capital system—to provide a 'breathing space' for negotiations! And as for this sanctimonious crap about 'sharing your pain at the loss of your assassinated leaders' because the same thing happened to them—!"
And the new government snaps up the offer, wanting to be the victors in the press.

He nodded to the new First Lord of the Admiralty, Sir Edward Janacek, and the civilian head of the Navy straightened in his chair.

"I've considered the military position in some detail, Your Majesty," he said with the patronizing air of a professional, although he'd last held a spacegoing command over thirty years before. "It's certainly possible that Saint-Just's motive is, in part, at least, to buy a military breathing space. But it won't do him any good. Our qualitative edge is too overwhelming. Nothing they have can stand up to the new systems developed from Admiral Hemphill's work." He beamed, and Elizabeth ground her teeth together. Sonja Hemphill was Janacek's cousin . . . and the First Lord acted as if all of her ideas had come from him in the first place.

"Certainly they haven't been able to stand up to Earl White Haven so far," Elizabeth conceded, enjoying Janacek's wince at the name "White Haven." The enmity between the two admirals went back decades, and it was as bitter as it was implacable. "But who's to say what they can come up with if we give them time to catch their breath and think about it?"

"Your Majesty, this is my area of expertise," Janacek told her. "Our new systems are the product of years of intensive R&D by research people incomparably better trained and equipped than anything in the People's Republic. There's no way they could possibly be duplicated by the PRH in less than four or five T-years. Surely that should be enough time for us to either conclude a reasonable peace settlement or else prove Saint-Just has no intention of negotiating seriously! And in the meantime, I assure you, the Navy will watch them like hawks for any sign of future threats."
Or why it's a Bad Idea to make the Conservative talking head expert on naval matter the man in charge of the actual navy.

"And if our Allies disagree with you, My Lord?" she asked finally.

"That would be regrettable, Your Majesty," High Ridge acknowledged, but then he smiled thinly. "Still, it's the Star Kingdom which has footed by far the greatest share of the bill for this war, both economically and in terms of lives lost. We have a right to explore any avenue which might end the conflict."

"Even unilaterally and without our treaty partners' approval," Elizabeth said.

"I've examined the relevant treaties carefully, Your Majesty," High Ridge assured her. "They contain no specific bar to unilateral negotiations between any of the signatories and the People's Republic."
Specifically because no one thought any signatory to the Alliance would just break ranks like that in an all-or-nothing, victory-or-slavery war.

She should have kept her mouth shut, controlled her temper, and bided her time; instead, she'd come out into the open too soon. Every one of High Ridge's fellow cabinet members knew she'd become their mortal enemy, and it had produced an effect she hadn't anticipated. The threat she posed to them—the vengeance they all knew she would take as soon as the opportunity offered—had driven them closer together. The natural differences which ought to have been driving them apart had been submerged in the need to respond to the greater danger she represented, and there was no way any of them would break lockstep with the others to support her against High Ridge, New Kiev, and Descroix. And without a single ally within the Cabinet, not even the Queen of Manticore could reject the united policy recommendations of her Prime Minister, her Foreign Secretary, her Home Secretary, and the First Lord of the Admiralty.
Oops.

"Citizen Admiral Tourville," Heemskerk replied in a flat, formal voice, "I must request and require you to join me aboard my flagship immediately, pursuant to the orders of Citizen Chairman Saint-Just."

"Are we going somewhere?" Tourville's heart thundered, and he discovered his palms were sweating heavily. Odd. The terror of combat had never hit him this hard.

"We will be returning to Nouveau Paris," Heemskerk told him unflinchingly, "there to consider the degree of your complicity in Citizen Secretary McQ—"

His voice and image cut off, and Tourville blinked. What the—?

"Jesus Christ!" someone yelped, and Tourville spun his chair in the direction of the shout, then froze, staring in disbelief at the main visual display.

Twelve glaring spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of deep space. They were huge, and so hellishly brilliant it hurt to look at them even with the display's automatic filters. And even as he stared at them, he saw another ripple of glaring light, much further away. It was impossible to make out any details of the second eruption, but it appeared to be on the approximate bearing of Javier Giscard's flagship . . . and the StateSec battle squadron which had been assigned to ride herd on him.

Lester Tourville wrenched his eyes back to the fading balls of plasma which had been the ships of Citizen Rear Admiral Heemskerk's squadron. The silence on his flag bridge was total, like the silence a microphone picked up in hard vacuum, and he swallowed hard.

And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from the console from which she had just sent a perfectly innocent-seeming computer code over the tactical net to one of the countless ops plans she'd downloaded to the units of Twelfth Fleet over the last thirty-two T-months.

"Oops," she said.
Shannon Foraker sneaks a kill-code into all the countless data of ops plans and sims sent out to the StateSec SDs, without telling anyone. So when they try and arrest Tourville after learning Eighth Fleet isn't coming to Lovat after all, ka-boom. Shannon Foraker is occasionally a very scary woman.

Kersaint was doing wonders on the diplomatic front. He'd talked the Manties into holding the first round of negotiations here on Haven, and he had the fools High Ridge and Descroix had sent tied up in endless discussions over the shape of the damned conference table! The Citizen-Chairman allowed himself a rare chuckle and shook his head. At this rate, it would take six months to get anywhere close to a substantive issue, and that was fine with him. Just fine. Much of the PRH was in a state of shock at the abrupt pause in hostilities, and some people were probably going to be upset, at first, at least, over the Republic's "surrender," which was how the Manties and the interstellar news services all seemed to view what was happening. But those upset individuals were going to discover very shortly that what was really happening was that the Manties were no longer slicing off Republican star systems virtually at will.

And in the meantime, the People's Navy—or, rather, the unified armed services which would absorb and supplant all the regular services under SS command—was already making some progress on ways to handle the new Manty weapons. Or at least to mitigate their effectiveness. In fact, Citizen Admiral Theisman was about due for the regular Wednesday conference, and Saint-Just permitted himself a brief moment of self-congratulation. Theisman had turned out to be an inspired choice for Capital Fleet. He'd reassured the regulars, his obvious lack of political ambitions had calmed the frenzied speculation about yet another coup attempt, and he understood perfectly that he would remain in command of Capital Fleet, and alive, only so long as he kept Saint-Just happy.

Once Saint-Just got Giscard and Tourville home and tidied up those loose ends, he could turn to the general military housecleaning, and—
All according to plan. I'm really thinking the unified SS military would be more like the old military than anything.

The door vanished in a cloud of splinters a moment before he could reach it. The force of the explosion hurled him backwards, sending him sprawling, and the pulser flew out of his hand as he lost his grip on it. The weapon thudded into the wall and tumbled to the carpet beside the doorway, and Saint-Just shook his head and levered himself back up onto his hands and knees. Blood coated his face, oozing from the countless shallow cuts and scratches the disintegrating door's fragments had clawed into his skin, but there was no time for that. He began to crawl doggedly towards the pulser. His entire universe was focused on reaching the gun, then getting to his feet, and from there escaping down the corridor outside his secretary's office to the secret lift shaft to the roof hangar.

A foot slammed into the floor before him, and he froze, for the foot was in battle armor. He crouched there, staring at it, and then, against his will, his eyes traveled up a soot-black leg of synthetic alloy. His gaze reached a point twenty-five centimeters above his head, and there it stopped, focused on the muzzle of a military-issue pulse rifle.
Small hitch in his plans there.

"You made two mistakes," Theisman said. "Well, three actually. The first was choosing me to command Capital Fleet and not assigning a different commissioner to keep an eye on me. The second was failing to have Admiral Graveson's data base completely vacuumed. It took me a while to find the file she'd hidden there. I don't know what happened when McQueen made her move. Maybe Graveson panicked and was afraid to move when McQueen didn't get you along with Pierre in her initial sweep. But whatever happened, the file she left behind told me who to contact in Capital Fleet when I decided to pick up where McQueen left off."

He paused, and Saint-Just stared at him for a heartbeat, then tossed his head.

"You said three mistakes," he said. "What was the third?"

"Ending hostilities and ordering Giscard and Tourville home," Theisman said flatly. "I don't know what's happened at Lovat, but I know Tourville and Giscard. I imagine they're both dead by now, but I doubt very much that either of them just rolled over and played dead for your SS goons, and I imagine you've suffered a few losses of your own. But more importantly, by issuing those orders, you warned every regular officer that the purges were about to begin all over again . . . and this time, we're not standing for it, Citizen Chairman."

"So you're replacing me, are you?" Saint-Just barked a laugh. "Are you really crazy enough you actually want this job?"

"I don't want it, and I'll do my best to avoid it. But the important thing is that the decent men and women of the Republic can't let someone like you have it any longer."

"So now what?" Saint-Just demanded. "A big show trial before the execution? Proof of my 'crimes' for the Proles and the newsies?"

"No," the citizen admiral said softly. "I think we've had enough of those sorts of trials."

His hand rose with Saint-Just's pulser, and the Citizen Chairman's eyes widened as the muzzle aligned with his forehead at a meter's range.

"Good-bye, Citizen Chairman."
The end.

No, really. That's the end of the book.

Probably going to end this thread shortly, since we've come to a nice narrative point with the end of the war and the Committee. Plus there's a five-year timeskip between here and the next book.

But to tide you over, Theisman holds the role of dictator for maybe a few weeks before appointing a provisional civilian government comprised of various figures of resistance against the Committee and former Aprilists, with Eloise Prichart as the provo President. The first order of business, along with crushing various rebellions and SS strongpoints is to hold a constitutional convention to reform the messed-up government of the last several decades and finally get the Dole under control.

This actually reverses things, now it's Manticore stalling the negotiations. Why? Well the one way to keep their "everyone but the Centrists" coalition together was to slash the navy budget to almost nothing, freeze all new construction, but keep the wartime taxes and duties because, after all, the previous Government's war is still ongoing though the new Government is working hard to secure the peace. This lets them pay for every party's pet projects, and when the Centrists complain about the lack of new construction? "The Invincible Eighth Fleet will protect us, no force in the universe can match them or will ever be able to." The High Ridge Government also decides that they are NOT bound by the promises of the previous Government, including those that sort of made the Alliance work, and take a great pleasure in pissing off, and over, their allies. Especially Grayson.

As diehard Centrists and high-profile war heroes, Honor and White Haven become the big names of the Opposition, though Willie remains leader of the Centrists. And yeah, for the next five years not a lot happens until things begin to build towards a head, and Haven has actually had time to get their own MDMs, LACs, carriers and podnoughts up to snuff....
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Darth Nostril »

Ahriman238 wrote:Haven has actually had time to get their own MDMs, LACs, carriers and podnoughts up to snuff....
Thanks to a certain sometimes scary tac witch ....
So I stare wistfully at the Lightning for a couple of minutes. Two missiles, sharply raked razor-thin wings, a huge, pregnant belly full of fuel, and the two screamingly powerful engines that once rammed it from a cold start to a thousand miles per hour in under a minute. Life would be so much easier if our adverseries could be dealt with by supersonic death on wings - but alas, Human resources aren't so easily defeated.

Imperial Battleship, halt the flow of time!

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Terralthra »

Ahriman238 wrote:
The Jamie Candless had proven all she'd hoped for, though she'd had precious little time to play with her new toy. Despite her eleven thousand two hundred-ton mass, Candless was almost as maneuverable as a pinnace, and Silverman's had gotten permission from the Navy to build in a next-to-last-generation military compensator. They never would have gotten it if they'd been building the ship for anyone else, but this time Honor had decided to go right ahead and trade on who she was, and the result was a ship which could crank close to seven hundred gravities. Without one of the lightweight fission piles used in the new LACs, Candless had precious little internal volume to spare, and her maximum designed passenger load was only eight, but she was also designed with the latest system-management AIs. In an emergency, Honor could have managed the entire runabout by herself from the flight deck, but she was too experienced a spacer try it except in an emergency. Besides, Alexander would have had a fit if she'd tried to take "his" boat away from him!
Honor's runabout, named for her fallen armsman.
Also gives a close reading of what the most overpowered compensators allow for on a really freakishly small ship: damn near 700g.
Ahriman238 wrote:
The final delay while they awaited the last piece of hardware had been infuriating, and Bledsoe suspected Donizetti had intentionally drawn it out—and exaggerated the difficulties he faced—to negotiate his fees upward, but it had been delivered at last. And Donizetti's ship had suffered an "accident" as it left Masadan orbit.
And the Solly weapons dealer who provided these won't be talking to anyone. Or providing the Masadans with more weapons for that matter. So wasteful.
It's stated elsewhere that the Faithful didn't vape Donizetti, Saint-Just did, in order to ensure that the only person who really knew where the Masadans got their weapons couldn't possibly be interrogated.
Ahriman238 wrote:
Countermissiles streaked out, but that only complicated the problem. The fantastically over-powered countermissiles were even less effective than their mother ships'. Worse, their wedges and emissions could be picked up . . . and blotted out even the feeble ghost returns Honor had managed to detect.

She started to bark an order, but the screen commander had already seen what she had, and his own order beat her to it. The countermissiles vanished from her plot as the LACs which had launched them sent the self-detonation commands, and she breathed a sigh of relief as she managed to find the missiles again.
Countermissiles ineffective, and the first time I can remember missiles self-destructing on command from their mother-ship, though they've always had the capability. Keeps them from flying into planets or into deep space.
Perhaps a minor note, but it's nice that Honor isn't the Only Competent Officer (Mary Sue) here. The screen commander noted the same thing Honor did about the CMs drowning out the stealth missiles' signature and detonates them before she even gets out an order.

Ahriman238 wrote:
They were closer, and her mouth dried as the time to attack range counter spun downward on her HUD. Some of the LACs were firing their own point defense clusters, though the range was long for those weapons, and even their grasers at their best-guess positions on the missiles, but they had virtually no chance of hitting them. Grayson One and Queen Adrienne were also responding, turning away from the threat and rolling ship in an effort to interpose their wedges. Neither yacht carried any armament, but both were equipped with comprehensive EW fits, and their electronic defenses sprang to life. Yet there was little for those defenses to defend against, for the silently pursuing killers radiated no active targeting systems to be jammed, and they seemed utterly oblivious to the efforts to confuse them with decoys.
Laser clusters and EW also way less effective against stealthy homing missiles.
Well, of course EW is useless against a target seeker like that, though I'm perplexed as to why the jamming fields wouldn't jam the beacons in the fake memory stones. It's noted later that the wedge blocks off their transmission...
Ahriman238 wrote:Mueller found out and executed off-screen like a chump. Elizabeth is right both that Saint-Just was behind Hassan and that no one will ever prove it.
Well, spoilers, yeah, someone will.
Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Solly stealth systems, at least in this one case with a surprise launch from spitting distance, are good enough to baffle Manty point defense.
Yes. At least with a recon drone. I think Weber may have forgotten that later in the series, especially since these are or really ought to be Ghost-Rider-capable LACs.
We have only the Masadans' word that they're purely Solarian tech. Saint-Just got them from Sollies, but he could have had their stealth tech quietly tinkered with by the (by now) mildly-superior-to-Solarian/inferior-to-RMN Havenite techs and gotten something that could hide from Ghost Rider. Or, looked at another way, this thing could easily be way more stealthy than an RD because an RD has to emit something back to its mother ship to be at all useful. No matter how stealthy its drives and passive its sensors, anything that's emitting a signal is inherently easier to detect than something that is passively receiving a homing signal with its entire design focused on stealth.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Mr Bean »

In the time skip it's noted that Bolthole is a Manhattan project. Shannon Foraker is in charge but they reference a dozen Peep engineers and scientists who take her napkin ideas and turn them into stuff like the triple ripple and super dreadnaught LAC carriers.

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:
Captain Gavin Bledsoe sat in his own command chair, watching the icons on his plot move steadily closer, and an odd, euphoric terror gripped him. He, too, saw the shell of light attack craft maintaining careful watch on Grayson One and Queen Adrienne, and he'd heard enough about the recently declassified craft to know how lethal they were. He didn't know any details about armament, power plants, or electronics; the Alliance wasn't in the habit of handing out that sort of information in the middle of a war. But he knew his ore freighter could never evade them if they came after him.
Some of the new-model LACs, I'd use Ferrets, escorting the VIPs.
Or, hell, they might be the Katana-class or prototypes of same. We know Grayson uses roughly the same LAC mix as Manticore, but the very existence of the Katanas proves they're not identical.
Quite possible, though I personally believe the Katana came out of the next couple of years' development of the concepts.

Two missiles inside a sublight asteroid hauler. Operation Hassan realized. Saint-Just cultivated these Masadan contacts so one day he could initiate a key assassination or bit of sabotage in the Yeltsin system. In this case, the missiles will home in on the beacons inside Elizabeth and Mayhew's gifted memory stones. Though, really, how and why Saint-Just would arrange those contacts after the last time Haven and Masada tried working together, I cannot say.
He may be working through Solarian cutouts, so the Masadans do not know the plan is Haven-backed. He may be using separate InSec channels that have been established in Masada for decades and have nothing to do with the military mission. Also note that as far as I can recall, Haven never actually betrayed Masada- so the Masadans might not be as soured on Haven as you'd think.
He is working thorough at least one Solarian cut-out. The thing is, Saint-Just should know, in great detail how often and vigorously the Masadans screwed over Theisman and Yu the last time with their combined ignorance, pursuing their own agenda and finally outright betrayal. Seriously, what part of the reports from their 'Masadan' repatriates would make Saint-Just think it was ever a good idea to deal with these people again?

Solly stealth systems, at least in this one case with a surprise launch from spitting distance, are good enough to baffle Manty point defense.
Yes. At least with a recon drone. I think Weber may have forgotten that later in the series, especially since these are or really ought to be Ghost-Rider-capable LACs.
Well, I'm sure this high-profile incident gave the Manties' R&D establishment a lot of motivation to overcome that in the future. Still, until Ghost Rider Manticore only had, what, sixteen or seventeen percent more effective EW purely in terms of hits avoided?

Although this really does suggest that SLN stealth should be reasonably effective against RMN systems... at least close to parity, or this shouldn't work. This is, after all, equivalent to a League recon drone being able to sneak that close to a Manticoran starship.
I think part of the idea was that this would only be an ambush weapon detected at all only when it's much too late. It was implied at least that it would be fairly useless against alert warships. Now, even a relatively secure civilian craft with no warning whatsoever? That's a kill. I suspect that like recon drones it has lower accel but a lot more endurance than missiles so it's possible it even has better range, and we've seen that Honorverse ships generally don't fire up the defenses until the last minute.

20 MT nuke versus civilian craft, a most miraculous rescue, the royals are safe. A significant part of the Centrist Government, however, is dead.
At that range?

The X-ray and neutron flux from a twenty-megaton spherical blast, at fifty kilometers, would be something like... energy release is 7.8*10^16 joules, thank you this source for the percent of the energy release that is instantaneous and would actually hit anything in the immediate term.

Energy is spread over a sphere fifty kilometers in radius, with surface area four pi times r squared... 31.4 billion square meters.

2.5 megajoules per square meter, in one big thwack. Which is, I'm pretty sure, noticeably worse than you'd get from one second flying through interplanetary vacuum at 0.8c. I forget where I did the calculation on that, but I did once.

Ow.
Yes, the wedge catches almost all the blast but enough heat and rads get around the edges to singe and damage the ship even through the rad shielding.

"I submit to you," Elizabeth continued, "that however firmly united you may be at this moment, your fundamental policies and principles are too basically opposed for that unity to last. You can, if you choose, use it at this moment to ignore my wishes, but you do so at your peril, for it will come to an end . . . and the Crown will still be here."

There was a moment of dead silence, and even High Ridge sounded slightly shaken when he broke it.

"Is that a threat, Your Majesty?" he asked almost incredulously.

"It is a reminder, My Lord. A reminder that the House of Winton knows its friends . . . and also those who are not its friends. We Wintons have long memories, Baron. If you truly wish to have me as an enemy, it can certainly be arranged, but I urge you to think very carefully first."
Also note, Elizabeth III has basically no interest in compromising with any of these people. As I noted when putting in House of Steel quotes last year, it seems pretty clear that the House of Winton and its rearmament program have been headbutting with the Liberals and to a lesser extent the Conservatives, and so firmly in bed with the Centrists, for so long that there is basically no chance of them being anything but polarized at a crucial moment.
She was sincere, I'm sure, in offering to form a coalition until the conclusion of the war. The thing is, she wanted everyone to be on one page and end this thing her way, and had nothing to offer the Opposition or threaten them with, just an appeal to principle and common sense which was always going to be a waste of breath. Further I suspect she would be open to reasonable compromise, but as she herself says of the Opposition (now Government) leaders, their priorities and principles are so divergent they have almost no common ground.

Impotent fury, for now, anyway. And so we get a High Ridge Government. Baron High Ridge shall be the new PM, New Kiev the Exchequer. The Progressive leader Descroix gets to be Foreign Secretary, even Pavel Young's little brother Stefan gets to be Minister of Trade. Janacek, the First Space Lord who intentionally tried to cripple Roger IIIs military buildup, assigned only screwballs to Basilisk Stations etc. is back on the horse.
Intentionally cripple? Hm?
Yes, or at least limit the abilities of his navy to engage in dangerous foreign adventures. Turning Basilisk into the Fleet dumping ground was the least part of this, he also played partisan budget games and throttled down the number of BCs and heavies equipped to act as small task force flagships so subtly they didn't really notice the gaping holes until the war began.

Haven has actually had time to get their own MDMs, LACs, carriers and podnoughts up to snuff....
Thanks to a certain sometimes scary tac witch ....
Who else would they find able and willing to take up the challenge? Or even to believe it was possible? I mean, besides her large staff.

Honestly, even after years of work they remain qualitatively inferior to the Manty equivalents, the MDMs are bigger and still a bit slower, the LACs aren't super enough. But because of the building freeze they build a lot more of them and use what they've got to good advantage. Like using bigger carriers to carry a lot more LACs.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by VhenRa »

Bolthole also completely up and running by this point. Yards might not entirely be, but the R&D department there by the end of this book is running.

And yeah, the RHN versions of the RMN's new toys are still inferior. But they are still within shouting distance until Apollo came online. They have MDMs that can engage Manty vessels, they have LACs, ect ect. And sure, quality wise they aren't as good... except quantity is a quality all of it's own.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Highlord Laan »

And even then, RHN ships are more than capable of gutting whole SLN fleets alive with little risk to themselves.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

So I've just read Honor Among Enemies and the relevant pages of this thread on it and there's one thing I don't get: Double Broadsides. It's frequently used by ships in this book. Caslet's CL, Hawkwing and even a Peep Battlecruiser (with its bowchasers so its not really a double broadside but its the same firing pattern)

Now I sort of get it.If you can spin your ship 180 degrees along the long axis faster than you can reload your tubes then you can fire salvoes faster and will be interposing your invincible wedge between broadsides. That sounds win-win to me.

But that's not how its described. It described as throwing twice the number of missiles per salvo with the double interval between them. So they dump a load of missiles and delay the firing the drives off until the next broadside is fire and therefore twice the missiles. Except isn't the first broadside going to be quite a way behind you if you've kept accelerating, so its not so much a double broadside as two distinct ones. One that's coming from behind and has bugger all velocity compared to the second one? (since the tubes are supposed to give it a significant amount of kick to it? Which was why pods were supposed to use before book 3.)

I especially don't get how doubling up the bowchasers work. If the battlecruiser was still acclerating wouldn't the first volley from the tubes end up getting overrun?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Terralthra »

The grav drivers in missile tubes kick them out with a decent kick of acceleration.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by VhenRa »

And could always kill the acceleration for the time it takes for the tubes/spin to cycle.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah. You have Salvo A which launches at time T, then Salvo B which launches at, say, time T+15 seconds.

Salvo A is already hundreds or thousands of kilometers downrange by T+15. But if you fire up Salvo B's engines first, then Salvo B will rapidly accelerate until it's moving at the same speed as Salvo A.

Once that happens you fire up Salvo A's engines, and the combined salvo, now moving at the same velocity, heads downrange toward the enemy.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

Okay that makes sense. Though I take then that Salvo B is the one you actually have to fire with less initial velocity given it to by the tubes? Rather than Salvo A as I was imagining.

it seems rather complicated to pull off in in battle conditions but I guess if you pre-program a fire program and practise it enough in drills then you could pull it off.

but even if they're at the same velocity doesn't that still leave you with two separate salvoes coming in from different angles. Salvo A is still going to be firing off velocity times gap between salvoes metres behind the ship/target's current position? Unless they can angle the first salvo forward a lot. they're still not going to sync exactly unless you're at relative rest to your target right?

It's still not say as effective as firing one salvo from twice the tubes?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Esquire »

I'd have to check, but I think double broadsides and rolling the ship are distinct maneuvers - double broadsides are what Simon described; by doubling the missiles coming in at the same time you get a higher chance of sneaking something through, but at the cost of effective rate of fire and more strain on personnel and computers. Simply rolling the ship, however, I'd expect to be standard practice any time a ship's axial rotation speed is less than its' launcher cycle time. You get increased rate of fire and small windows of invulnerability as the wedge passes between the ship and the enemy, but burn through missiles much faster and don't actually thicken the individual salvoes, so if you're a destroyer shooting at a dreadnought with more twice as many countermissile tubes as a DD has crew, double broadsides may actually allow you to hit where rolling fire will only expend the missile magazines that much faster for no gain.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by VhenRa »

Esquire wrote:I'd have to check, but I think double broadsides and rolling the ship are distinct maneuvers - double broadsides are what Simon described; by doubling the missiles coming in at the same time you get a higher chance of sneaking something through, but at the cost of effective rate of fire and more strain on personnel and computers. Simply rolling the ship, however, I'd expect to be standard practice any time a ship's axial rotation speed is less than its' launcher cycle time. You get increased rate of fire and small windows of invulnerability as the wedge passes between the ship and the enemy, but burn through missiles much faster and don't actually thicken the individual salvoes, so if you're a destroyer shooting at a dreadnought with more twice as many countermissile tubes as a DD has crew, double broadsides may actually allow you to hit where rolling fire will only expend the missile magazines that much faster for no gain.
I will point out. Whenever you roll the ship like that, you will lose telemetry links with any active missiles along the broadside. Thats what makes Keyhole such a game-changer.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Esquire »

Good catch! I had a nagging suspicion I was forgetting something.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

Esquire wrote:I'd have to check, but I think double broadsides and rolling the ship are distinct maneuvers - double broadsides are what Simon described; by doubling the missiles coming in at the same time you get a higher chance of sneaking something through, but at the cost of effective rate of fire and more strain on personnel and computers. Simply rolling the ship, however, I'd expect to be standard practice any time a ship's axial rotation speed is less than its' launcher cycle time. You get increased rate of fire and small windows of invulnerability as the wedge passes between the ship and the enemy, but burn through missiles much faster and don't actually thicken the individual salvoes, so if you're a destroyer shooting at a dreadnought with more twice as many countermissile tubes as a DD has crew, double broadsides may actually allow you to hit where rolling fire will only expend the missile magazines that much faster for no gain.
I just did a bit of checking. For Caslet (in book 6)and Theisman (in book 2) they pull off spinning and the delayed activation for double broadsides at the same time. This is specifically called that in boook 6. But Hawkwing is not mentioned to be spinning when its pulling off double broadsides vs Kerebin. And obviously for the chase guns on Achmed spinning wouldn't work.

So yeah two separate manoeuvres but they do seemed to be used together.

As to the control links. I've not got as far as to read about Keyhole but if there's an issue there its not been mentioned in the early books.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Crazedwraith wrote:Okay that makes sense. Though I take then that Salvo B is the one you actually have to fire with less initial velocity given it to by the tubes? Rather than Salvo A as I was imagining.
Why bother? As long as the accelerations match, it's not a problem.
but even if they're at the same velocity doesn't that still leave you with two separate salvoes coming in from different angles. Salvo A is still going to be firing off velocity times gap between salvoes metres behind the ship/target's current position? Unless they can angle the first salvo forward a lot. they're still not going to sync exactly unless you're at relative rest to your target right?

It's still not say as effective as firing one salvo from twice the tubes?
On the scale of missile ranges, the distance the ships move relative to one another in 15-20 seconds is not that large, so the two salvos will be coming in from very similar directions. It doesn't make much practical difference if the two broadside salvos are separated by five or ten degrees of arc, though; you still get defense saturation because the enemy's still trying to track eighteen missiles instead of nine or whatever.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Okay that makes sense. Though I take then that Salvo B is the one you actually have to fire with less initial velocity given it to by the tubes? Rather than Salvo A as I was imagining.
Why bother? As long as the accelerations match, it's not a problem.
How so?

If you fire them off at the same speed from the launchers and fire Salvo B's engines off first then when Salvo B reaches where salvo A's got to without engines. They'll be travelling faster than Salvo B and even if you fire Salvo A's engines then. Salvo B will always be heading faster than Salvo B which then cause them to split into two distinct waves for the enemy to track rather than one big one.


Now depending on the Distances and speeds this effect may be quite small but it might be quite large given that the tubes are supposed to throw them out with significant speed and Honorverse ranges are quite long.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Crazedwraith wrote:How so?

If you fire them off at the same speed from the launchers and fire Salvo B's engines off first then when Salvo B reaches where salvo A's got to without engines. They'll be travelling faster than Salvo B and even if you fire Salvo A's engines then. Salvo B will always be heading faster than Salvo B which then cause them to split into two distinct waves for the enemy to track rather than one big one.

Now depending on the Distances and speeds this effect may be quite small but it might be quite large given that the tubes are supposed to throw them out with significant speed and Honorverse ranges are quite long.
You're right. I... hm, got it. You fire off both salvos' drives simultaneously. Then their velocities will match. Their positions won't quite match, and Salvo A will arrive first, but only by, oh... I don't know, something on the order of ten thousand kilometers, which is pocket change. If you want to fine tune it you light off Salvo B's drives slightly earlier, in which case the two salvoes start out spatially separated but merge as they approach the target and Salvo B catches up with Salvo A.
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