Avatar review thread

[Junghalli]

Keep in mind Eywa provides the Na'Vi with an actual honest to goodness afterlife. If they die they just get uploaded into Eywa. This actually makes them in at least one major way much better off than First World humans today, and possibly even Avatarverse humans (Quaritch at least was visibly aged so there's some evidence they don't have bio-immortality, although he could have kept that look for a similar reason he kept the scars for all we know, and if they had uploading they'd probably have used that in the Avatar program and would have been sending personnel to Pandora as information in comm lasers because it would probably be a lot cheaper). I also vaguely remember a mention about something from the EU about them not suffering from infectious disease, probably due to Eywa's gardening of the microbial kingdoms. Put those two things together and the two biggest reasons why a primitive lifestyle sucks filthy goat dick disappear.

Granted we don't really know what their afterlife is like, but given that Sully didn't hear horrible agonized screaming when he tapped into Eywa and heard the voices of the ancestors I think it's a fairly safe bet it's at least not actively torturous. Also I doubt Eywa could upload somebody who got their brain destroyed when they died, for obvious reasons, so people falling off high cliffs and the like would still be a problem. Banshee breaking would probably still involve a serious risk of "real" death because of the possibility of falling or getting thrown down the dozens or hundreds of meters to the ground.

[Serafina]

They outright state that you have to "learn fast or die".

No, Jake says that learning from Neytiri (someone who, you may have noticed, didn't want to teach him) was "learn fast or die". This may just be Neytiri's attitude, or it might have been because Jake was an adult and an avatar and thus she wasn't going to cut him slack.

Soo - the enviorment is dangerous enough that a trained special-forces soldier risks dieing in learning things that are basic for the Navi?

Tell me, with all those dangerous creatures around, how is their life safe?

The taming of a flying beast is very dangerous, and every Hunter has to attempt it.

They have to climb a lot and then try to wrestle a banshee to the ground. The Na'vi seem quite capable of climbing around on various precarious objects (remember the spiral structure inside Hometree?) and only the banshee that chooses them will try to harm them. Sure, it's dangerous, but that doesn't mean a lot of them died. We don't see any prospective hunters get killed in the trial, and not every Na'vi is a hunter anyway.

Yeah - and that climbing IS pretty dangerous, no matter how good you are.
Someone is going to make an error sooner or later - and a fall from that height IS deadly.

Furthermore, we are outright TOLD how dangerous that taming is. Jake was nearly killed, and he was capable of beating an experienenced Navi in HTH-combat.

Do you have any other evidence?

Sure - how about the predators?
They ARE attacking the Navi - or what about that giant flyer that nearly killed Jake and the Navi-girl?

Furthermore, what about illnesses or injuries? The Navi clearly do not have advanced medical technology -they were not able to treat Graces wound, and we do not see any kind of medical technology.
Of course, you can explain away diseases with a super-powerfull immune system or absence of diseases (but new ones should evolve, since Eyhwa is unlikely to controll every single bacteria or virus). But that still does not cover injuries.

Furthermore, Eyhwa does NOT take care of all of the needs of the Navi - they did not even THINK of asking for help against the most serious threath they ever faced, so why should they do so for minor things?

Face it, the Navi ARE a bunch of primitives. Their life is NOT easy, even if we assume that there are no diseases, the predators do not attack them, they never make any errors while climbing and that there is an abundance of easily accessible food (all of those are ludicrous assumptions).

[Serafina]

Keep in mind Eywa provides the Na'Vi with an actual honest to goodness afterlife. If they die they just get uploaded into Eywa. This actually makes them in at least one major way much better off than First World humans today, and possibly even Avatarverse humans (Quaritch at least was visibly aged so there's some evidence they don't have bio-immortality, although he could have kept that look for a similar reason he kept the scars for all we know, and if they had uploading they'd probably have used that in the Avatar program and would have been sending personnel to Pandora as information in comm lasers because it would probably be a lot cheaper). I also vaguely remember a mention about something from the EU about them not suffering from infectious disease, probably due to Eywa's gardening of the microbial kingdoms. Put those two things together and the two biggest reasons why a primitive lifestyle sucks filthy goat dick disappear.

Granted we don't really know what their afterlife is like, but given that Sully didn't hear horrible agonized screaming when he tapped into Eywa and heard the voices of the ancestors I think it's a fairly safe bet it's at least not actively torturous. Also I doubt Eywa could upload somebody who got their brain destroyed when they died, for obvious reasons, so people falling off high cliffs and the like would still be a problem. Banshee breaking would probably still involve a serious risk of "real" death because of the possibility of falling or getting thrown down the dozens or hundreds of meters to the ground.

This is not evidence of an afterlife. Some memories may be stored, and it is certainly feasible that the Navi can acces recordings of them - but that does not mean that they have a full brain upload of every Navi.
We do not know if they are actually conscious individuals any more. You are assuming something for which there is little evidence.
It is quite likely that the Navi-afterlife is no more than pictures, audi-recordins and memories of the death.
WE can do that TODAY - if i die right know, there will be much left of me, not only in the memory of others, but also in video, audio, pictures and written text.

[Eldy]

Soo - the enviorment is dangerous enough that a trained special-forces soldier risks dieing in learning things that are basic for the Navi?

I don't recall Sully being mentioned as special-forces so out of curiosity, where does that come from? Anyway, what do we see that is truly risking death? He has to hunt and go precariously high (and jump onto the leaves), but Na'vi have those reinforced skeletons to help them. In addition to the possibility that Neytiri pushed Jake further and faster than young Na'vi would have been, it's also possible that the quote reflects Jake's attitude more than the reality of the situation. I can't imagine many (if any) humans surviving the leaf-jump, but Jake managed to even though he didn't do it particularly well. Or perhaps he just exaggerated, it's not like that's uncommon.

<snip>

And your evidence that "a lot of your people die doing it" is...? A few people every now and then != a lot of people. Some humans die in climbing accident or by picking fights with wild animals too, but that doesn't mean that our lives hard.

Furthermore, what about illnesses or injuries? The Navi clearly do not have advanced medical technology -they were not able to treat Graces wound, and we do not see any kind of medical technology.

The Na'vi did not want the humans' medicine; I think it stands to reason that they had medical practices of their own sufficient for their needs. Also, we don't know if they could have tried to treat Grace's wounds since they skipped that and went straight to the "permanently move her mind to the avatar body" step.

Furthermore, Eyhwa does NOT take care of all of the needs of the Navi - they did not even THINK of asking for help against the most serious threath they ever faced, so why should they do so for minor things?

The RDA are not comparable to anything else the Na'vi have faced. In a war between two Na'vi clans Eywa wouldn't take sides because she only preserves balance, so it doesn't occur to the Na'vi that she might intervene in a war against humans. Jake, not having been raised in their society, tries anyway and Eywa intervenes to prevent the humans from destroying more natural life on Pandora. This doesn't mean that the Na'vi wouldn't think to ask for help in other cases.

[Serafina]

I don't recall Sully being mentioned as special-forces so out of curiosity, where does that come from? Anyway, what do we see that is truly risking death? He has to hunt and go precariously high (and jump onto the leaves), but Na'vi have those reinforced skeletons to help them. In addition to the possibility that Neytiri pushed Jake further and faster than young Na'vi would have been, it's also possible that the quote reflects Jake's attitude more than the reality of the situation. I can't imagine many (if any) humans surviving the leaf-jump, but Jake managed to even though he didn't do it particularly well. Or perhaps he just exaggerated, it's not like that's uncommon.

She told him right before that jump that he had to learn quickly or die. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that his training was pushed faster than normally.

Besides, Jake is a marine - comes pretty close to "special forces", especially since he was a recon-marine.

And your evidence that "a lot of your people die doing it" is...? A few people every now and then != a lot of people. Some humans die in climbing accident or by picking fights with wild animals too, but that doesn't mean that our lives hard.

Real-world figures?
Yeah, yeah - the Navi are clearly superior to humans, got that. But still - if your normal way of life includes many deathtraps, then it is imperative that a significant number of people will die from it. The noted incidents are by far not the only ones.

The Na'vi did not want the humans' medicine; I think it stands to reason that they had medical practices of their own sufficient for their needs. Also, we don't know if they could have tried to treat Grace's wounds since they skipped that and went straight to the "permanently move her mind to the avatar body" step.

Ooor they are simply ignorant of the possibilites of human medicine.
"sufficient for their own purposes" does not mean much. You can say we had that in the Stoneage (the population did not die out) - or you could say that we do not have suffiecient tech today (people still die).

The RDA are not comparable to anything else the Na'vi have faced. In a war between two Na'vi clans Eywa wouldn't take sides because she only preserves balance, so it doesn't occur to the Na'vi that she might intervene in a war against humans. Jake, not having been raised in their society, tries anyway and Eywa intervenes to prevent the humans from destroying more natural life on Pandora. This doesn't mean that the Na'vi wouldn't think to ask for help in other cases.

Which is - well, pretty much my point.
Eywa is clearly NOT "build" to care for every need of the Navi. Such a belevolent AI would have helped them on their own incentive.

Show me evidence for your theory that Eywa does take care of the Navi, instead of preserving the balance of the ecosytem as it is stated to do.

[Junghalli]

This is not evidence of an afterlife. Some memories may be stored, and it is certainly feasible that the Navi can acces recordings of them - but that does not mean that they have a full brain upload of every Navi.
We do not know if they are actually conscious individuals any more. You are assuming something for which there is little evidence.

I'll grant it's possible that what gets uploaded is just a recording and not a sapient personality. I don't see why this should be a default assumption though. Without any evidence one way or another they're about equally likely.

Also, we don't know if they could have tried to treat Grace's wounds since they skipped that and went straight to the "permanently move her mind to the avatar body" step.

There's also the matter of Grace being a different species with an alien biochemistry. If a Na'Vi got dumped on Earth today and run over by a car the doctors probably wouldn't be able to do much for him besides crude first aid and maybe some surgery (without anaesthetic) because probably none of our drugs would work on him. That doesn't mean that our medical techniques for treating other humans are similarly poor.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if their medicine was no better than that of cultures of comparable technology level on Earth. But if they have an afterlife this wouldn't be so bad because the worst thing that happens is they go chill in the brain-tree. Like I said, an actual afterlife eliminates or at least reduces many of the reasons a primitive lifestyle sucks hard.

[Darwin]

Eywa is clearly NOT "build" to care for every need of the Navi. Such a belevolent AI would have helped them on their own incentive.

Show me evidence for your theory that Eywa does take care of the Navi, instead of preserving the balance of the ecosytem as it is stated to do.

By her existence, Eywa takes care of the Navi. They have everything they need. but then again, they have to work for it. The 'back to nature' precursors of the Navi probably wanted it this way, along with a planetary intelligence that works to maintain the balance, but not interfere or act preferentially towards the spiritual luddite sect who want to live there. Maintaining the balance insures that the Navi will continue to have everything they need to maintain their primitive society.

And as stated before, though Pandora seems to be an inherently dangerous environment (for aliens who don't know shit)
we go through the whole 2.5 hour movie without seeing a single bluecat get killed or even injured by the environment (Though the Toruk attack was admittedly a close thing, we're talking about the planet's alpha predator.)

It seems to be manageably dangerous for those who have lived their whole lives on Pandora. It's probably comparable to our own highways: put a primitive in a car at 70mph in traffic, and they'll have similar bloody failure rates as human PMC and scientists out in the wild on Pandora. The Navi don't die in droves because they simply know how to live there and we don't.

[mr friendly guy]

I suppose it's telling that so far except for Saverok, pretty much everyone who's on the RDA side is from a wealthy First World Nation. Your perspective chances somewhat if you are from a country whose national history is one where the East India Company raped the landscape (for Tin, mind you. TIN.), co-opted the local rulers and surpressed revolt with military force.

Actually I think they are just morally bankrupt nerds with some pseudo military fantasy about how they would write the story. Maybe in their ideal sci fi verse every one has their own mini death star or something. Its telling when you use their own logic against them, its perfectly ok for someone to do the same to us. Naturally they try and weasel out of this with contradictory bullshit justifications like its ok for both sides to be right so we can be right in fighting back were the positions reverse. This boils down to might makes right. Yep, thats the people arguing this shit.

Though on the other hand, they built schools. And roads. And hospitals. And what do you know, I speak english. But then again, the ungrateful British educated elite ultimately still came to demand the British grant independence and self rule. Go figure. Traitors.

The thing is, its quite possible to build some beneficial infrastructure without destroying or forcing people from their homes. RDA built a school without destroying home tree, and resource hungry China offers to build African countries hospitals and other infrastructure in exchange for minerals.

[Eldy]

She told him right before that jump that he had to learn quickly or die. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that his training was pushed faster than normally.

Did you watch the same movie as everyone else? The line was Jake in a voiceover and he said "with Neytiri it's 'learn quick or die'." Neytiri didn't tell him anything of that sort. I agree that there's nothing to suggest that his training was different than normal, but on the flip side we don't know if it was like anyone else's. The quote does say "with Neytiri" which suggests that 'learn quick or die' is a philosophy more or less unique to her.

Besides, Jake is a marine - comes pretty close to "special forces", especially since he was a recon-marine.

Where does it say that he was a 'recon-marine'? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't recall him being mentioned as anything but a Marine.

Real-world figures?

Google turns up with:
Climbing: 15 fatalities in the U.S. in 2007 (the link has more data)
Animals: An average of 177 deaths per year in the U.S.
I'm not sure how this is relevant, however. I made a comparison with the real world since I don't think anyone can say that "lots" of humans are dying because of animals, but the real question is how many of the Na'vi die because of animals. We really don't know, and that's why I'm reluctant to agree with your statement.

Yeah, yeah - the Navi are clearly superior to humans, got that. But still - if your normal way of life includes many deathtraps, then it is imperative that a significant number of people will die from it. The noted incidents are by far not the only ones.

They do things that might be lethal to humans, but we can't judge their activities based on that. All the 'yeah, yeah's in the world won't change that. What makes it so imperative that a significant number of them will die?

Ooor they are simply ignorant of the possibilites of human medicine.

When are you going to stop with pointing out all sorts of possibilities and show some evidence for your claim that lots of Na'vi die because they are a hunter-gatherer society?

Eywa is clearly NOT "build" to care for every need of the Navi. Such a belevolent AI would have helped them on their own incentive.

You somehow know that Eywa wouldn't have done anything if Jake didn't ask?

Even if she wouldn't, you completely missed the point of what I wrote. Just because Eywa did not help against the RDA didn't mean that Eywa wouldn't help the Na'vi survive in day-to-day life.

Show me evidence for your theory that Eywa does take care of the Navi, instead of preserving the balance of the ecosytem as it is stated to do.

Darwin has already dealt with this, but just look at the situation the Na'vi live in. They have a fairly large (several hundred people at minimum) population living in a sedentary village. The village, being in a tree, obviously can't move; yet they are a hunter-gatherer society. Real world hunter-gatherer societies were nomadic or semi-nomadic because they had to follow the migrations of animals and if they stayed in one place too long they would gather all the food that was available.

Also, the Na'vi believe that Eywa provides for them. Normally I'd say this doesn't prove much but since Eywa is a scientifically measurable (to a degree) entity, I think we can accept the Na'vi's belief.

This is somewhat of a red herring though since my initial post to you was in response to your statement that "I mean, putting aside the fact that they are utterly defenseless against any spaceborne thread -their lifestyle is not exactly that great. Hunting and gathering may be fun, but not if a lot of your people die doing it" (my bold). Care to provide evidence?

[Eldy]

<accidental double post>

[PeZook]

Where does it say that he was a 'recon-marine'? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't recall him being mentioned as anything but a Marine.

Quaritch says "I was First Recon myself, a few years before you", and then (paraphrased) "A Recon jaree in a Na'Vi body? That's something we can use." when he meets Jake in the AMP suit hangar.

[Serafina]

*snip and start over

Look, YOU have to show that the Navi are different from observed hunter-gatherer societies, even if they are specifically portrayed as one.

I am merely making the assumption that they are quite similar to other observed hunter-gatherer societies, so the burden of proof is not on me.

All your evidence is
-the lack of observed deaths. But that is not a logically sound argument - should we assume that the Navi do not die of old age due to lack of observation?
-the existence of Eywa and the statement that she "takes care", without providing any mechansim or observed "caring", and despite evidence to the contrary (the Navi not believing that they may gain assistance).

This is not sufficient to assume that Eywa is solving all the problems of the Navi.

[PeZook]

I'd also like to point out that there was a burial ceremony shown in the movie (When Jake was talking about how they believe "All energy is only borrowed"), though no cause of death was stated.

[hongi]

When are you going to stop with pointing out all sorts of possibilities and show some evidence for your claim that lots of Na'vi die because they are a hunter-gatherer society?

They take risks like climbing up Home Tree, taming the Banshees and so forth. Their environment is a hostile one. One of those big rhino looking things will crush you, or a Thanator will eat you. Their lifestyle, like other hunter-gatherer societies, is one that doesn't tolerate failure. If they're living on a sustinence-level, they're always going to be looking for food and if they don't, people are going to starve. It's just common sense.

[Shroom Man 777]

Soo - the enviorment is dangerous enough that a trained special-forces soldier risks dieing in learning things that are basic for the Navi?

The environment is dangerous enough that an ignorant moron who's never ever before set foot on Pandora, who is "like a child" in Blue Chick's own words, risks death.

Would not a child or an ignorant person from the jungle be also at risk of dying if he wanders into the big city and walks into traffic without adult supervision? Would their complete ignorance of shit like traffic lights, pedestrian lanes, gangbangers, and urban society in general also not put them in grave risk?

Jake had to learn fast or die. Blue Chick wasn't going to waste time educating him on the basics of fundamental Pandoran wilderness survival.

Tell me, with all those dangerous creatures around, how is their life safe?

By the fact that they can domesticate animals just by sticking tentacles in them? Even their equivalent of a Great White Shark in the sky can be domesticated. I mean, the Na'vi can control animals with their friggin minds!

While interfacing with Toruk or other dangerous creatures isn't really possible, the fact that the Na'vi actively commune with nature - and do friggin Vulcan mind merges with the planetary brain that can even control hordes of these dangerous animals - means that they live in harmony in ways that no Earth hunter-gatherer jungle society can even fathom.

The fact that Eywa is real, that Eywa's effects on the biosphere are fucking tangible and measurable, makes analogies to Earth societies pointless.

Yeah - and that climbing IS pretty dangerous, no matter how good you are.
Someone is going to make an error sooner or later - and a fall from that height IS deadly.

Are they all forced to climb giant floating mountains and wrestle with sky pterodactyls? Yes, Hunters do it. But are all Na'vi hunters? In real life, rock climbers also choose to climb mountains, firefighters also choose to run into burning buildings. There are lots of voluntary things that are dangerous.

Furthermore, we are outright TOLD how dangerous that taming is. Jake was nearly killed, and he was capable of beating an experienenced Navi in HTH-combat.

Because he was like a child. Notice how he was nearly killed in just one night in the jungle, when armed with a machinegun, when a half-naked Na'vi girl can just walk around the forest naked in the night without even getting a scratch? Jake nearly gets killed by a pack of xeno-dogs, but Blue Chick ends up killing all of them effortlessly in seconds.

Jake's experiences is a bullshit example because he's not a typical Na'vi. He can't even speak their language!

Sure - how about the predators?
They ARE attacking the Navi - or what about that giant flyer that nearly killed Jake and the Navi-girl?

Unless those Toruks occur very frequently, what exactly is the problem? Flying has risks. You might crash and die, your plane may break and you'll die, you might hit a bird and crash and die, you might go into bad weather and crash and die. Having a rare and legendary predator being an occasional aerial hazard is not indicative of any massively increased mortality rate, especially when it comes to something as naturally dangerous as aviation.

Furthermore, what about illnesses or injuries? The Navi clearly do not have advanced medical technology -they were not able to treat Graces wound, and we do not see any kind of medical technology.

A wound caused by a weapon that does not naturally occur in Pandora at all. Would you say that modern medicine's inability to save a man who got shot by an alien laser cannon is indicative of the inherent danger of living on Earth?

Oh, also... you don't see any kind of medical technology because their fucking home just got blown up by the RDA assholes. Should I go on about how Earth lacks modern medicine because those refugees in New Orleans who evacuated into the Superdome died?

Furthermore, Eyhwa does NOT take care of all of the needs of the Navi - they did not even THINK of asking for help against the most serious threath they ever faced, so why should they do so for minor things?

How would you know that the Na'vi lack any medicine or healthcare practices at all? If I saw an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie and noted how the girl or unlucky partner died from a gunshot wound that couldn't be treated, would that mean that Earth lacks any and all medicine?

For all we know, the Navi might or might not have a whole crap of medical literature written by a Blue-Skinned Hippocrates or something. Just because it doesn't show us these things doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you don't see hospitals or operating rooms on your walk down the street, doesn't mean that hospitals or operating rooms don't exist.

Face it, the Navi ARE a bunch of primitives. Their life is NOT easy, even if we assume that there are no diseases, the predators do not attack them, they never make any errors while climbing and that there is an abundance of easily accessible food (all of those are ludicrous assumptions).

It isn't easy. But it's unfair to compare them to Earth societies, even primitive hunter-gatherer societies, because they are incomparable. Earth primitive hunter-gatherer societies can't commune with nature, Earth primitive hunter-gatherer societies don't live in a planet with a fucking Eywa, Earth primitive hunter-gatherer societies don't have the ability to control animals and auto-domesticate them with their dreadlocks. Earth primitive hunter-gatherer societies don't ride pterodactyls.

You bring up wild animals and disease when, fact is, the ecology of Pandora is fundamentally nothing like Earth's ecology, it's nothing like the environment Earth societies live in. Who KNOWS how shit works in Pandora? Just look at those flying mountains and bioluminescent trees! I mean, geeze, when the whole planet looks like it's "intelligently designed" with practically everything on the planet - even certain trees - sporting a neural net plug that can be exploited by the Na'vi.... isn't that a clue that nothing's what it seems like at all?

As Theo Nering says:

Darwin has already dealt with this, but just look at the situation the Na'vi live in. They have a fairly large (several hundred people at minimum) population living in a sedentary village. The village, being in a tree, obviously can't move; yet they are a hunter-gatherer society. Real world hunter-gatherer societies were nomadic or semi-nomadic because they had to follow the migrations of animals and if they stayed in one place too long they would gather all the food that was available.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, the Na'Vi certainly are superior to Earth hunter-gatherers. Yes, their life is not easy and their life level is miles below that of an industrialized society, quite probably - but that doesn't mean you can just compare them to Earth tribes. After all the Na'Vi do live in harmony with nature, and their hunter-gathering society also seems to walk around forests without any fear, which means the dangers of predatorial death must be fairly low - else they would only travel in heavily armed groups of hunters, nothing like the lone walkers we see in the movie.

Clearly their environment, and especially for non-hunter classes, is superior to what Earth offers the humans.

And since the Na'Vi detest killing even animals they need to kill for nutrition so much as to make special practices to not feel guilt before the slain animal, I doubt their tribes are also engaged in ultraviolent primal warfare against each other for nutrition. In fact, nothing in the movie ever indicates the Na'Vi fight or kill each other.

[PeZook]

Indians had little rituals to appease the spirits of dead animals they hunted, too, and it didn't stop them from waging war on each other. Though Indian wars were curious things, rarely waged for total victory - more like a summer sport or rite of passage, a way to gain fame and perhaps a woman.

When it came down to one tribe fully mobilizing against another, though, it was total war.

[hongi]

Are they all forced to climb giant floating mountains and wrestle with sky pterodactyls? Yes, Hunters do it. But are all Na'vi hunters? In real life, rock climbers also choose to climb mountains, firefighters also choose to run into burning buildings. There are lots of voluntary things that are dangerous.

Don't the Na'vi of that particular clan live in/on Home Tree? It's not voluntary if they have to climb the tree in order to sleep.

[NecronLord]

Are they all forced to climb giant floating mountains and wrestle with sky pterodactyls? Yes, Hunters do it. But are all Na'vi hunters? In real life, rock climbers also choose to climb mountains, firefighters also choose to run into burning buildings. There are lots of voluntary things that are dangerous.

Don't the Na'vi of that particular clan live in/on Home Tree? It's not voluntary if they have to climb the tree in order to sleep.

I'm pretty sure they lived among its roots, not high up it, for the most part.

[Serafina]

Are they all forced to climb giant floating mountains and wrestle with sky pterodactyls? Yes, Hunters do it. But are all Na'vi hunters? In real life, rock climbers also choose to climb mountains, firefighters also choose to run into burning buildings. There are lots of voluntary things that are dangerous.

Don't the Na'vi of that particular clan live in/on Home Tree? It's not voluntary if they have to climb the tree in order to sleep.

I'm pretty sure they lived among its roots, not high up it, for the most part.

Jake had to climb and jump to get to his sleeping place.

Overall, even IF we assume that an adult Navi is so skilled that he survives all this without trouble - what about the children?
How are they going to LEARN all of this - where is the giant training ground where they can train climbing, jumping, balance and fighting with safety nets?
If they learn it like Jake (in the wilderness), they are going to have a significant attrition rate - no matter how good they are in the end.

[Eldy]

Quaritch says "I was First Recon myself, a few years before you", and then (paraphrased) "A Recon jaree in a Na'Vi body? That's something we can use." when he meets Jake in the AMP suit hangar.

Ah, okay. I forgot about that part, thanks for refreshing my memory.

[Eldy]

Look, YOU have to show that the Navi are different from observed hunter-gatherer societies, even if they are specifically portrayed as one.

I am merely making the assumption that they are quite similar to other observed hunter-gatherer societies, so the burden of proof is not on me.

I feel like I'm going to be repeating what several other people and myself have already said, but you simply can't assume that the Na'vi are similar to Earth hunter-gatherer societies. For one, as I pointed out earlier, they are sedentary. That's a huge difference right there and it means that there must be food just lying around (or walking around) in the vicinity of Hometree. Pandoran ecology being largely under the control of Eywa, I think it's reasonable to suggest that she is the cause of this.

As Shroomy pointed out, they are able to interface with Eywa who can control wild animals and they go into the forest alone sometimes (like Neytiri when we first meet her). The Na'vi also have a huge physiological advantage over humans in that they are bigger, stronger, and tougher; so things that would be fatal to humans would not necessarily be fatal to the Na'vi. Even on Pandora this is evident; the humans are constantly wary of many of the animals on Pandora, yet the Na'vi show no signs of fear about them (as Stas pointed out).

I'm not saying I can prove anything conclusively, but I think there are enough differences between the Na'vi and humans that we can't make the assumption that they are similar to human societies that easily. Without this assumption there's no reason to think that lots of them died due to their lifestyle.

-the lack of observed deaths. But that is not a logically sound argument - should we assume that the Navi do not die of old age due to lack of observation?

Slightly off-topic, but the one dead Na'vi that we saw was a significantly aged individual.

-the existence of Eywa and the statement that she "takes care", without providing any mechansim or observed "caring", and despite evidence to the contrary (the Navi not believing that they may gain assistance).

I don't know the mechanism but that doesn't mean Eywa doesn't do things. We didn't use to know the mechanism by which the sun generated heat, but it was obvious that the sun was generating heat somehow. As for your 'evidence' to the contrary, I've already responded to it:

The RDA are not comparable to anything else the Na'vi have faced. In a war between two Na'vi clans Eywa wouldn't take sides because she only preserves balance, so it doesn't occur to the Na'vi that she might intervene in a war against humans. Jake, not having been raised in their society, tries anyway and Eywa intervenes to prevent the humans from destroying more natural life on Pandora. This doesn't mean that the Na'vi wouldn't think to ask for help in other cases.

If you don't like my arguments how about you rebut them? Your list of my arguments didn't include everything I'd said, such as what is perhaps the most important point: that they are sedentary.

[Serafina]

I feel like I'm going to be repeating what several other people and myself have already said, but you simply can't assume that the Na'vi are similar to Earth hunter-gatherer societies. For one, as I pointed out earlier, they are sedentary. That's a huge difference right there and it means that there must be food just lying around (or walking around) in the vicinity of Hometree. Pandoran ecology being largely under the control of Eywa, I think it's reasonable to suggest that she is the cause of this.

Sure, there are differences.
But are they sufficiently large that they change the fact that survival mostly depends on ones survival skills?

Furthermore, they can travel very far (flying mounts), so they have a HUGE area. It is a damn rainforest, too - lots and lots of food.
There are/were hunter-gatherers with more or less fixed homes on earth, too. As long as you do not have agriculture, you are a hunter-gatherer.

As Shroomy pointed out, they are able to interface with Eywa who can control wild animals and they go into the forest alone sometimes (like Neytiri when we first meet her). The Na'vi also have a huge physiological advantage over humans in that they are bigger, stronger, and tougher; so things that would be fatal to humans would not necessarily be fatal to the Na'vi. Even on Pandora this is evident; the humans are constantly wary of many of the animals on Pandora, yet the Na'vi show no signs of fear about them (as Stas pointed out).

Sure - and did they ever USE it for anything?
Eywha has a will on her own, they did not even think of asking her for help in a huge crisis, much less commanding her to do so.

The size compared to humans is irrelevant - it is the size compared to the Fauna&Flora that matters.
In that comparision, the Navi are no better off than humans on earth.

Slightly off-topic, but the one dead Na'vi that we saw was a significantly aged individual.

How many old Navi do we see?IIRC, only the two wise leaders, no more.
Not untypical for a society with a harsh lifestyle - they can not support members that can no longer contribute to the society. But if most are dieing due to the enviorment already, that is not a problem.

I don't know the mechanism but that doesn't mean Eywa doesn't do things. We didn't use to know the mechanism by which the sun generated heat, but it was obvious that the sun was generating heat somehow. As for your 'evidence' to the contrary, I've already responded to it:

Then tell me - what does Eywa do?
So far, you have only used it as an explanation for things that do not need one (such as having enough food for a society of a few hundreds in an gigantic area) or taken her as an explanation for speculative assumptions (such as the lack of diseases).

If you don't like my arguments how about you rebut them? Your list of my arguments didn't include everything I'd said, such as what is perhaps the most important point: that they are sedentary.

Hey, the burden of proof is still on you.
YOU have to show that Eywa does something on a regular base for the Navi. All that we see it doing is calling a lot of wild animals against the humans - but that is self-protection. It even waited to see if the Navi could pull it off on their own - so the intention was clearly not "protect the Navi".

I answered the "sedentary"-point already, and it is a red herring anyway - being sedentary doesn't push them out of the "hunter-gatherer" category - and it does not disprove the point that they have a very hard life.

[K. A. Pital]

How many old Navi do we see?IIRC, only the two wise leaders, no more.

No, much more - look the Home Tree destruction scene.

[hongi]

As Shroomy pointed out, they are able to interface with Eywa who can control wild animals and they go into the forest alone sometimes (like Neytiri when we first meet her).

Neytiri is an accomplished hunter. I guarantee you that it'd be suicide to send anyone who isn't a hunter, i.e. an ordinary Na'vi into the wild.

Furthermore Eywa doesn't take sides, it maintains the balance of life. That means Eywa is probably very willing to kill Na'vi if that means an animal will get to eat for the day.