What if the Empire invaded modern day Earth?

[Darth Hoth]

The problem with directly contradicting the ICS is that's an impossible requirement. You could say "there's no evidence whatsoever for those numbers", and the wankers can just reply "yeah but that doesn't mean they couldn't. They just.... never want to, regardless of how useful they would be."

Star Wars wankers use identical methods to creationists. Out of universe, they can point to Lucasfilm as justification to their word of god. In universe, they have the same thing real life creationists have: the non- falsifiable word of a book.

Unfortunately, those are the rules. I did not make them, although I do like a lot of the older EU and am personally glad it is canon. But, anyway. The difference between the two cases is that, as you noted, Lucasfilm can be verified to exist. If Jehovah's existence was an easily demonstrable fact and he exercised creative control over his franchise, one would be bound to take his word more seriously than otherwise, as well.

Go to TIE fighter solar panels here: http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Analysis.html

Mike himself treats books as if they were written in universe - and thus, might be full of shit. Why are they full of shit when they describe solar panels, which are seen in the movies, but fucking stupid, while the books are considered the unassailable word of God when they describe technical capabilities that are never seen in the movies?

Do the films say that they are actually solar panels?

But, I cannot speak for him; that is his methodology, which I personally disagree with (for much the same reason as you, incidentally; I feel it is all too open to arbitrary abuse). I am more inclined towards Publius's thoughts on evidence, which distinguish between those sources written as fallible in-universe documents and those that are not.

[Junghalli]

Solar panels isn't impossible to rationalize. They're an emergency power system that keeps the pilot alive and powers an emergency beacon in the event that the main power system is knocked out or runs dry.

[Sinanju]

The problem with directly contradicting the ICS is that's an impossible requirement.

Funny how you always seem to screw up miserably when you try, though. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Star Wars wankers use identical methods to creationists. Out of universe, they can point to Lucasfilm as justification to their word of god. In universe, they have the same thing real life creationists have: the non- falsifiable word of a book.

As Hoth said, sorry, them's the rules. Also I find it interesting that you're going to try this canard now when earlier in the thread you dropped this gem:

As rare as they are in canon. If there's inconsistencies in the canon, don't blame me. Blame the writers who just didn't give a flying fuck.

This was in reply to me pointing out that proton torpedoes are used fairly regularly in the movies, and you were justifying your position based on a book quote that they're "rare". You can't shrug and go 'oh well canon is inconsistent' when it suits you and then complain about inconsistencies later.

Well, I suppose you could. But you probably shouldn't.

[Darth Hoth]

Unfortunately, those are the rules.

That leaves you with just two options:

Does it, necessarily? That there is no independent evidence for high ends in the films does not mean that all apparently low-end events are really such. Say, blowing up wanktanium space armour can easily require much higher energies than was posited by Mike Wong's iron vapour calcs, too. It depends on the magical material's capabilities.

And no, this will not work for every instance. But the footage is inconsistent enough that one can argue for higher ends than conservative observation would otherwise allow for in many cases. You are arbitrarily limiting the playing field in building up an either/or dichotomy and applying it to every aspect of the tech.

btw, as far as this thread goes, any option is the same result: the Empire gets pasted, since their technology, on the tactical scale, is scarcely better than the 1940's. In spaaaace.

Why? Did the OP specify that he did not want EU information used in his thread? If so, I missed that detail.

I don't think so, but they don't actually say X-Wings can do 3000g either. If you accept one thing as the word of God without backup, you should be consistent and accept it all.

Ordinarily, I do, even for retarded things. The problem is when the EU contradicts itself.

[Batman]

You don't get to ignore the EU just because you don't know or like it. The AOTC ICS says 1KT per shot for the Delta-7. It says 12,000kph in atmosphere and 5,000g acceleration in space. The RotS ICS gives similar numbers. So do other EU sources. UNTIL AND UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW THE MOVIES CONTRADICTING THIS THOSE NUMBERS STAND!
I've told you before. If you don't like the rules the game is played by, nobody is forcing you to play. This is a Vs , and Wars forces have the capabilities LFL SAYS they have.

As far as this thread goes, the Empire is unassailable because their technology is vastly superior to ours, they have the advantage of already having their forces in place while we would need to move ours in in a way they can easily counter and the OP takes away our nukes,and what happens when they run out of the means to MAINTAIN that technology depends on what arrangements they've made with mankind by then.

[Sinanju]

btw, as far as this thread goes, any option is the same result: the Empire gets pasted, since their technology, on the tactical scale, is scarcely better than the 1940's. In spaaaace.

Hint: Repeating your arguments after they've been decimated repeatedly doesn't a good counter make.

Besides, my argument has had some specific failings, but overall remain unchanged. There is not a single instance in the films of starfighters or ground technology throwing around anything even remotely close to 1 kt. Even if we accept the utterly unjustified main site numbers, not a single one of them - not one! - shows walkers or TIEs at that level. (A kilotonne of TNT is 4 terajoules)

If there's inconsistencies in the canon, don't blame me. Hey, this is fun.

How many times now have you tried to 'debunk' the numbers only to shoot yourself in the foot? Maybe you should just give up.

a) Naboo is fighting for its life, and has nothing to lose by going all out.
b) The Rebellion is fighting for its life, and has nothing to lose by going all out. (And in this case, everything to lose by failing.)

If they were rare and considered 'omg top end!' by the galaxy at large, how do you propose for a small planetary government in the galactic equivalent of the ass end of nowhere to stockpile enough of them to equip its fighters? How do you explain the New Republic continuing to use X-Wings with proton torpedo launchers long after it's past the need to be "going all out"? For that matter how do you explain the ARC-170, which also has proton torpedo launchers and was issued to a galactic navy? Or the Y-Wing, which also had proton torpedo launchers and was sold to civilians?

Are you starting to see how nonsensical that argument is? Given past precedent I'm guessing 'no', but hey.

[Junghalli]

Like I said, is TIE solar panels necessary a contradiction? Sure they aren't enough for the engines, and if we assume MJ-GJ weapons they probably aren't enough for that either, but there's real life precedent for using different power sources for those things. I mean, imagine a hard SF combat spacecraft, it's moved around by chemical rockets, it's got a more-or-less conventional minigun for armament, and it's got solar panels for the electronics and stuff. The solar panels, in that context, make sense. TIEs could be similar (in terms of using different energy sources for rockets, weapons, and everything else).

The main problem is that they're probably too big but maybe the wings double for some other function and/or they feed powerful active sensor and communications equipment. The other problem is they wouldn't function away from a star, but maybe they have some different back-up power source but solar panels are favored because they don't need expensive fuel or something.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

The main problem is that they're probably too big but maybe the wings double for some other function and/or they feed powerful active sensor and communications equipment. The other problem is they wouldn't function away from a star, but maybe they have some different back-up power source but solar panels are favored because they don't need expensive fuel or something.

You could reconcile it by saying the radiator wings have solar panels on them as a secondary function, similarly to how the current trend seems to be saying that the Star Destroyer sensor globes include shield generators on them so as to reconcile the EU material that calls the globes themselves shield generators.

[Lord Insanity]

b) Those capabilities are only usable under a very specific set of circumstances. This works somewhat well for acceleration: it might take a long time to ignite the engines, they only work in one direction, they have to be slowly ramped up to full acceleration, that kind of thing. The advatage of this, to the writers, is they can make the characters jump around solar systems with relative ease, even without invoking the hyperdrive. The Hoth asteroid belt, for example, might be very far away from the planet, but they got to it quickly thanks to 3000g.

The canon explanation for why combat happens at slower accelerations then what we routinely see from ships leaving planets is ECM and/or jamming. We even see this happening on Darth Vader's targeting computer in ANH. The ship on the targeting screen is wobbling all over when we can't see the real ship doing that at all. Vader has to manually adjust his computer to get a lock. (A better question might be why the magic user was screwing around with his computer when he should have just used his magic powers of precognition and shot the ship that way.) Regardless jamming/ECM neatly explains the disparity between combat accelerations and the fact that SW ships while leaving a planet make the space shuttle look like a prehistoric relic.

[Junghalli]

You could reconcile it by saying the radiator wings have solar panels on them as a secondary function, similarly to how the current trend seems to be saying that the Star Destroyer sensor globes include shield generators on them so as to reconcile the EU material that calls the globes themselves shield generators.

A solar panel would probably make a pretty shitty radiator and visa versa. With a radiator it's advantageous to run it as hot as you can get away with to reduce the necessary area, whereas a solar panel would probably have delicate machinery that would be damaged by too much heat. I'm also not sure how well the material qualities of a good radiator vs a good solar panel (highly emissive vs highly absorbent) would mesh.

Regardless jamming/ECM neatly explains the disparity between combat accelerations and the fact that SW ships while leaving a planet make the space shuttle look like a prehistoric relic.

I don't really see why as this jamming doesn't seem to do anything to visible light so they should still be able to see where they're going.

[Ford Prefect]

UNTIL AND UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW THE MOVIES CONTRADICTING THIS THOSE NUMBERS STAND!

You know, the numbers in the AotC ICS were true, then there is exactly zero way for Obi Wan to have survived Jango firing that missile at him. After all, he's pretty clearly not pulling 5000g, the missile is stuck on his ass for what, a minute, and never catches him? You could say that it had to be moving slowly in order to get around intervening debris, but that there are whole seconds where there is nothing but open space between the missile and Kenobi's Delta-7. It should have just gone to its full acceleration and crossed the distance in less than a millisecond. I suppose you could assume that starfighter just have way better acceleration than missiles, but I'd find that extremely difficult to swallow.

[Darth Hoth]

Yeah, but you can't apply that everywhere. Was the snow on Hoth wanktastic armor? Were the trees on Endor made of wanktastic armor? Is the flesh of humans made of wanktastic armor? Is the ground on Naboo made of wanktastic armor? Is the air on Geonosis made of wanktastic armor?

All the ground events contradict high power. It directly shows that ground equipment isn't very spectacular, and indirectly shows that space tech isn't up to snuff either, since there's no consideration of orbital bombardment in the last two examples. (Hoth escapes this due to the rebel shield, and Endor due to its own shield. But, Naboo and Geonosis didn't have those shields - if they did, why didn't they raise them to keep the bad guys out? It doesn't make sense for troop transports to make it through, but starfighters can't.)

Naboo arguably gets away because the TradeFed wanted a limited war to avoid bad publicity. Kind of why people accept, say, the moronic tactics and equipment the RDA used in Avatar. (Although I revile them, but that is a question for another thread.) Geonosis, of course, has no such excuse.

And yes, I know that the result appears stupid and inconsistent. But then, weapons and technology are rather inconsistent in the series itself. Say, if one compares Han's handgun in the original film and the damage it does to the concrete walls in the docking pit with blaster damage to people elsewhere, particularly in RotJ. For just one thing. But in the end, we have both high and low ends, both in the films and the EU. And the best we can do is assume they switched power settings, or whatever. Even if in some instances, that looks retarded.

I really hate wanktastic armor stylistically too. If you are going to have super weapons, but then add super armor so it never has any effect beyond mundane weapons, why bother with the super weapons in the first place? What purpose does it serve to your story?

At least some stories do actually make the power of the tech a plot point. In the "Golden Age" there was a lot of "Uber Civilisation X discovers Primitive [Earth-like] Planet Y and impress everyone there because they are so awesome! Their ships put out trillions of teratons, and they have psychic powers/ubertech that can turn people's minds inside out!"*

Although I generally find those irritating, but they are there.

Otherwise, you can have more innocuous "flavour" reasons for it. Say, you want to have Age of Sail in Space and need technobabble to justify it.

The EU can't be contradicted by the movies. If you accept the fancy numbers, you still have to make up a reason why all the movie scenes mimic WW2. Either everybody is stupid (so they stupidly won't use it in the OP either), or the tech isn't available in those circumstances for whatever reason, which should also apply in the OP scenario.

The movie sample size is small enough that I feel I can get away with those forces being more retarded than usual fare. Also, there are still mitigating factors in many cases: The TradeFed are not military professionals, there are theater shields, jamming (Yeah, this is no panacea, but it does help some), the Rebels/TradeFed are running their battles on a shoestring, Vader/Tarkin/The Emperor are running political meddling or idiosyncratic tactics, whatever.

However, the point still remains that ultimately the aim should always be reconciliation of the sources, not exclusion. And nearly always, it is much easier to explain away a low end than a high one, if one is to accept both as part of the continuity.


(*In modern versions, they usually also have AI that is vastly superior to human intelligence, post-scarcity societies, and whatever.)

[Darth Hoth]

UNTIL AND UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW THE MOVIES CONTRADICTING THIS THOSE NUMBERS STAND!

You know, the numbers in the AotC ICS were true, then there is exactly zero way for Obi Wan to have survived Jango firing that missile at him. After all, he's pretty clearly not pulling 5000g, the missile is stuck on his ass for what, a minute, and never catches him? You could say that it had to be moving slowly in order to get around intervening debris, but that there are whole seconds where there is nothing but open space between the missile and Kenobi's Delta-7. It should have just gone to its full acceleration and crossed the distance in less than a millisecond. I suppose you could assume that starfighter just have way better acceleration than missiles, but I'd find that extremely difficult to swallow.

Perhaps the missile was atypical? Just because we see one kind of rocket does not mean that all others are like that one.

[Batman]

Say, blowing up wanktanium space armour can easily require much higher energies than was posited by Mike Wong's iron vapour calcs, too. It depends on the magical material's capabilities.

Yeah, but you can't apply that everywhere. Was the snow on Hoth wanktastic armor? Were the trees on Endor made of wanktastic armor?

These are relevant to starfighter acceleration and firepower how? So the Wars equivalent of an AVR DOESN'T carry KT range guns and the AT-ATs at hot were not using their main guns /at full power to shoot up INFANTRY.

Is the flesh of humans made of wanktastic armor?

I can't recall a single human in all of the 6 movies being hit by starfighter guns.

Is the ground on Naboo made of wanktastic armor?

Same here.

All the ground events contradict high power.

No they don't, as none of them involve starfighter guns. Nobody ever argued Wars INFANTRY weapons are KT range.

It directly shows that ground equipment isn't very spectacular

I don't know about you but if I HAVE to shoot somebody I'm taking an E-11 over a MP5every day

and indirectly shows that space tech isn't up to snuff either, since there's no consideration of orbital bombardment in the last two examples.

It does most certainly NOT. ALL it shows is that for WHATEVER reason, they chose not to orbitally bombard.

But, Naboo and Geonosis didn't have those shields - if they did, why didn't they raise them to keep the bad guys out? It doesn't make sense for troop transports to make it through, but starfighters can't.

Where, pray tell, was it said that starfighters COULDN'T make it through? And what would have been the POINT of orbital bombardment in those situations? At Naboo, the TF was trying to maintain a shroud of legitimacy (kinda hard to do when you obliterate cities from orbit) and by the time of their faceoff with the Gungan army essentially owned the planet.
Geonosis, they were trying to rescue the Jedi. Kinda hard to do if you just nuked them from orbit. And (note-this is IIRC so the information may be from noncanon sources as I can't remember WHAT I recall it from) I think the Republic was trying to take Geonosis intact, which again says BDZing it from orbit is contraindicated.
Under LFL canon rules it's not enough that they don't. You have to show they CAN'T.

Or, you accept all these capabilities and come to the conclusion that everybody in the setting is just stupid.

You accept those capabilities period because that's what LFL's rules say, OR you stay out of the game. It's that simple.

I really hate wanktastic armor stylistically too. If you are going to have super weapons, but then add super armor so it never has any effect beyond mundane weapons, why bother with the super weapons in the first place? What purpose does it serve to your story?

I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say here.

Why? Did the OP specify that he did not want EU information used in his thread? If so, I missed that detail.

The EU can't be contradicted by the movies.

It's the other way round, actually? Are you sure you actually KNOW LFL's canon policy?

If you accept the fancy numbers, you still have to make up a reason why all the movie scenes mimic WW2.

Maybe you do. 'I' just accept the fact (and that's assuming any of your complaints actually holds any water but that's irrelevant).

Either everybody is stupid (so they stupidly won't use it in the OP either), or the tech isn't available in those circumstances for whatever reason, which should also apply in the OP scenario.

Because-you say so. This ISN'T movies only. It's Wars vs modern day Earth. Everything they do in the EU that doesn't involve resources they don't have in this scenario, they can DO in this scenario. Which includes using TIE fighters to the best of their abilities.

[Junghalli]

The problem with them as a backup is people based rather than technical. This is the same Empire that (allegedly) gives its soldiers shit tech out of fear that everyone is a traitor. This is the same empire that (allegedly) gives most people cheap fighters since they are expandable anyway.

So they are willing to let them die out of distrust and callousness... but burns half the figher's size on a lifepod function. It could happen, but it is out of character.

Well, as I suggested a bit earlier, another possibility is that whatever they use in their engines and weapons isn't easily adapted to being tapped for electrical power. Like if you had a hard SF spacecraft with chemical rockets, a minigun, and a solar panel for the electronics (that's three different energy sources being used, only one of which is the solar panel).

The main problem is this would mean they could only work close to a luminous body. Maybe they have a secondary power system for use where there isn't a convenient sun, but they keep the solar panels because it's higher endurance or just cheaper (no need to spend money on fuel). The latter might explain why the rebels don't use it; being a guerilla force rather than an army of galaxy-wide occupation they don't need to maintain such a huge starfighter fleet, so there's less benefit in such cost-cutting measures.

[Batman]

UNTIL AND UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW THE MOVIES CONTRADICTING THIS THOSE NUMBERS STAND!

You know, the numbers in the AotC ICS were true, then there is exactly zero way for Obi Wan to have survived Jango firing that missile at him. After all, he's pretty clearly not pulling 5000g, the missile is stuck on his ass for what, a minute, and never catches him? You could say that it had to be moving slowly in order to get around intervening debris, but that there are whole seconds where there is nothing but open space between the missile and Kenobi's Delta-7. It should have just gone to its full acceleration and crossed the distance in less than a millisecond. I suppose you could assume that starfighter just have way better acceleration than missiles, but I'd find that extremely difficult to swallow.

I don't. Consider that Star wars capital ships have accelerations half that of fighters a minuscule fraction their size (if not better, a Venator actually out-accelerates an ARC-170). HOWEVER Star Wars sublight propulsion works, it apparently gets BETTER the bigger the ship the engines are mounted on are. Remember Han expected the ISDs in ANH to catch him in realspace, and the Falcon is supposed to be FAST.

[Sinanju]

All the ground events contradict high power. It directly shows that ground equipment isn't very spectacular, and indirectly shows that space tech isn't up to snuff either, since there's no consideration of orbital bombardment in the last two examples. (Hoth escapes this due to the rebel shield, and Endor due to its own shield. But, Naboo and Geonosis didn't have those shields - if they did, why didn't they raise them to keep the bad guys out? It doesn't make sense for troop transports to make it through, but starfighters can't.)

Uhm...the Gungans did raise their shields. More importantly, the Droid Control Ship was the only ship remaining from the blockade. And it had problems of its own. Remember the big dogfight scene? That was happening at the same time?

The EU can't be contradicted by the movies. If you accept the fancy numbers, you still have to make up a reason why all the movie scenes mimic WW2. Either everybody is stupid (so they stupidly won't use it in the OP either), or the tech isn't available in those circumstances for whatever reason, which should also apply in the OP scenario.

If there's inconsistencies in the canon, don't blame me.

Oh hey, more fun.

You're so utterly retarded. I'm getting sick of this.

The megajoule observation has never been countered. The closest you got was the scaling of that tower, but you agreed it was glowing before it was shot anyway, so that whole line was moot.

Think harder, young Padawan. Remember why you suddenly switched to that lame-o tower example? Hint: it involved a strafing run and your getting spanked.

Also I like how you still keep with the 'hurf-durf I am your intellectual superior!' shit after proving you apparently can't do math, or notice a several-minute-long movie sequence, or spot clouds of gas/vapor/smoke being kicked up by a laser blast. Projecting much?

It's okay, maybe you'll become competent one of these days.

If nuclear missiles are so rare and considered 'omg top end!' by the world at large, how do you propose for a small regional government in the middle of the desert to stockpile enough of them to have an effective deterrant?

You're comparing apples to oranges. Who gives a shit about WMDs? If something is so common that it's used by the front-line fighters of a galactic navy it can't, by definition, be considered rare.

If they were available on the open market, you know they'd starve their people to buy one. Naboo seems to be pretty well off, they wouldn't even have to starve anyone to make an arms purchase.

And yet proton torpedos, unlike nukes, are available on the open market, at least to licensed users, or do you think the Naboo were getting their torpedoes off the black market? I suspect your analogy is starting to crumble.

Are you seriously asking what a military would want with a weapons platform?

I'm asking how something issued regularly to a starfighter used by the Republic Navy could possibly be considered 'rare'. Your delusions of adequacy are showing.

[Darth Hoth]

That might work. Even if they don't care for Gungan lives, the environmentalists would be all over their ass for just nuking that beautiful field. (Though, earlier in the film, they knocked down trees left and right... perhaps that was easier to cover up as well, being so far away from the city.)

I am fairly certain knocking down trees would not be considered as offensive by the Galactic community as wiping out the aboriginals.

My theory as to their alleged abuse of Naboo citizens is that it is all a show; a bluff to get the Queen's concession by playing on her young emotions, which is why we never actually saw it on screen. (I went into this in a PSW thread a few months back. It isn't conclusive, but I like it.) That'd fit right in with the desire to keep things limited too.

I remember thinking the same thing (although not reading your thread). It makes good sense. If I recall correctly, this was supported by some EU book, as well - a "Young Reader" one I bought for a younger cousin, but skimmed just for fun.

[Junghalli]

On the subject of proton torpedos, isn't the point of contention whether it's sensible for them to be used as an anti-starfighter weapon? So they wouldn't have to be particularly expensive or rare for "they're too expensive" to work; they'd just have to be more expensive than a starfighter. That would nicely explain why fighters carry them too; they may be more expensive than a fighter but still cost-effective to use against bigger things, like ISDs.

It really puts a cool spin on their motivations - much more depth than just evil aliens lol.

Seconded.

[Lord Insanity]

Regardless jamming/ECM neatly explains the disparity between combat accelerations and the fact that SW ships while leaving a planet make the space shuttle look like a prehistoric relic.

It isn't neat at all! That jamming doesn't affect the naked eye, which means there's plenty of wavelengths to pick up on that are unaffected. It doesn't explain why we still see the same thing, even when the enemy has every advantage (chasing Han around Hoth or blasting off from Tatooine). It doesn't explain the X-Wings failure to use it on the Death Star - they could have punched it relatively blindly down that trench and stopped to hover over the port based on inertial calcs and naked eye fixes. Easy shot.

stopped to hover

Do I even need to... I am pretty sure that the canon explanation of the Death Star's turrets not being designed to track small fast ships and having their targeting screwed by jamming would be irrelevant, to say nothing of the fighters.

I do agree that the pod race was pretty cool, though.

[Batman]

These are relevant to starfighter acceleration and firepower how?

Those, specifically, show a pattern in the technology.

They don't use KT firepower in weapons used in targets meters away in infantry combat? Wow, that comes as a shock.

So the Wars equivalent of an AVR DOESN'T carry KT range guns and the AT-ATs at hot were not using their main guns /at full power to shoot up INFANTRY.

Option A: exterminate the pesky Rebel alliance in a single shot
Option B: use the lowest possible setting to drag out the engagement long enough to let the Rebellion escape almost completely

Yeah, I mean it's not like Vader wanted to actually CAPTURE anybody or something.

If starfighters had kiloton firepower,

They canonically HAVE. You do NOT get to ignore that, at least not in a Vs. EVEN IF IT MEANS EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER IN THE MOVIES IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON as a result they DO have that firepower.

they could have shot the ground around the Gungan shield, one shot from a fighter would cause an earthquake, as well as tunnel through to them. At 1kt / shot and 1 shot/second, you can shake them to death.

So? Since they DIDN'T that doesn't show beans about Wars fighter firepower as it never happened to begin with. WHY it never happened is, quite frankly, irrelevant. It didn't, and thus doesn't contradict the firepower numbers.

Yet they didn't try to send a starfighter down. Are they retards or is the tech limited, meaning it wouldn't help? They have option C though: other concerns (PR) were more important than easily winning that battle.

Um-they were easily winning the battle as it was?

Geonosis, they were trying to rescue the Jedi.

They successfully rescued the Jedi, then turned around and re-deployed them to charge the droid army. Instead, they (if the tech actually exists) could have ran to space and just glassed the place from orbit, exterminating the separatists, Dooku, the droid army, the manufacturing plants, the Death Star plans - everything, in a single shot from their troop transports.

The tech DOES exist. I'm getting tired of you ignoring LFL canon policy.

They tried to kill as many of those as they could. If they had 200 GIGATON firepower, they could have taken them all down in a single shot.

They HAVE.

Under LFL canon rules it's not enough that they don't. You have to show they CAN'T.

The alternative is that every character we see is a retard. If you're ok with that, well, ok, accept it and bow out.

The alternative is that for WHATEVER reason they didn't do it. The ICS says 200GT MTLs on an Acclamator, which is MASSIVELY LESS than you get by downscaling from the DS1, and NOTHING IN THE MOVIES CONTRADICTS THIS.
You don't have to LIKE those numbers but you WILL either ACCEPT them or show they're WRONG. By LFL's rules, not yours.

[Ford Prefect]

Perhaps the missile was atypical? Just because we see one kind of rocket does not mean that all others are like that one.

Then why would Jango have an anti-fighter missile which is capable of accelerations a tiny fraction of other anti-fighter missiles, or which would literally be incapable of catching a fighter pulling its full acceleration? I mean if it was some down-on-their-luck cash-strapped wannabe, then maybe I could accept them just being really awful missiles, but this is Jango Fett. I don't know, it just seems a little, well, silly that he would actually own missiles which Slave 1 could actually outrun with a fraction of its engine power, you know? Especially seeing that by his attitude when firing it he seriously thought Obi-Wan was screwed, so unless it was a very specific missile for fighting in asteroid fields where everyone has to fly really slowly ... I'm sure you get my gist.

[Lord Insanity]

stopped to hover

Do I even need to...

Better to put one fighter at extreme risk to save the rebel base than to put the Rebel base at extreme risk to protect one fighter.

(It isn't certain death either - they could zip there, stop, fire, and zip away in the time it takes those slow towers to turn. Risky, yes, but it'd play to their strengths.)

And the fighters that were following them? The only one in a position to take the chance versus just the towers was Luke, and he had the magic powers so it doesn't really matter.

I do agree that the pod race was pretty cool, though.

What I liked about it is I actually felt some tension there: the rest of the movie was like, I know how this will end, there's no real danger, but the pod race managed to capture that feeling. It was fun.

Well I kind of knew Anakin had to win, but yeah it was one of those fun random things that the OT was full of.

[Sinanju]

And they couldn't spare a single bolt to eliminate the ground army? Even through the shield, they could have surrounded them in a moat of lava, or killed them with earthquakes.

If that bolt was better-served keeping them from getting blown up immediately and dealing with the Gungans later, then yes.

And that ended with we both noting that we missed an important observation that made the whole thing moot. I mentioned this in my last post in response to you!

Didn't think hard enough, I guess. Remember, before you finally started doing some work on your tower example? Here. Go to page 23 and search for the phrase "Based on your 'feelings' again, I take it?" Remember, when you were nitpicking the 60GJ figure based on your expert analysis of a black scorch mark that you were sure would have shown a 1 cubic meter hole? And your inane theory about Tibanna gas being the reason Star Wars blasters blow smoking holes in things in spite of the fact that a much simpler explanation is 'energy weapons burn things'?

Because the canon says it is rare, and they apparently outclass fighters, yet aren't used. Two options:

1) The EU is right, and they are too expensive to use outside of special circumstances.
2) Proton torpedoes aren't as impressive as they look at first glance - see Sea Skimmer's objections a couple pages ago.

Either works for me.

If there's inconsistencies...ah, fuck it, you know how the rest of that goes by now. I'll quit doing that, but if you'd like to know why I'm harping on that it's because it's incredibly disingenuous of you to use that argument and then loudly and repeatedly complain when it's turned against you.

Incidentally, I remembered that this whole thing got started because you insisted "Star Wars missiles" (sweeping generalization) "can't" (another sweeping generalization) outperform modern missiles. Since you're so gracious as to admit their abilities (having turned to nitpicking about how often they're used), can I assume you're conceding that argument?

[Connor MacLeod]

Wow.. This'll teach me from taking a break.

Well, anyhow since there's some 3-4 different people already engaging D13, if he doesn't mind, I'll bow out until the debate thins out a little since I don't want to get into dogpiling (it already looks like a borderline dogpile to me.) Or maybe I'll lose interest if something else comes up and it can be taken as a concession I've never decided.