Mimbari- pussies?

[Enlightenment]

Oh yeah…like this is reeeallly an accurate analogy. Ahem…correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that every single nation on Earth knows who the United States is and what we're like. This is no "first contact" situation…there have been none of those on Earth for centuries. That is NOTHING like meeting a totally alien species for the first time…who just happens to think flashing their fucking ships' guns won't look hostile.

First contact can excuse a lot of sins but it can't excuse unprovoked murder or the partial decapitation of a nation. The fact that EA didn't know that they were shooting at what was effectivly the Minbari capital city is irrelevant; they shouldn't have been shooting in the first place. Once that pandora's box was opened EA had to face the consequences.

WHAT?!?! Are you nuts? There's nothing retroactive here! There is no B5 Special Edition where JMS changed canon!

There is, however, ItB, which rewrote history as defined in the rest of the series.

Actually, from what I remember, they were planning on eliminating all resistance, then coming back later for everyone else.

This is what I mean by a lack of operational evidence. The Minbari are by no means the most able strategists (the fact that they were bested and later indirectly led by Sheridan is proof of that...) but leaving the civlians for later would put them at about the same intellectual level as the pakleds. Occupying territories is a complete waste of resources if you intend to wipe out the population later.

[Stormbringer]

And the Nazis only slaughtered 6 million jews during the holocaust, there were still Jews alive after the war

They were willing and planning to commit genocide. That makes them evil. Note that they're entire race went along with it, even those who thought it was wrong. That makes them evil.

Some of the Minbari were in a genocidal mood. Not all of the were or they never would spared the planetay populations. That to me implies there is debate among the Minbari. One sufficiently powerful as to delay the "final solution".

Sparing the planetary populations could have been an act of convenience. If they had slaughtered them outright they would be facing stiffer resistance from a world whose inhabitants knew that they weren't going to live anyways. It's the same thing as what happened on the fourth flight on 9/11, the one that went down in Penn. The passengers knew they were going to die if they stayed still, so they risked fighting back.

Except the humans on the colonies pretty much did resist to the death. They took casulaties that they didn't have to to take thos planet. If they really wanted to slaughter them all they would have had to do is kill them all from orbit or drop bioweapons they .

And if you didn't notice, the less genocidal faction did try to make peace and avoid genocide. They couldn't stop the war, the warriors had the ships and guns and the mandate to use them. Instead they did the best they could to stop them. And luckly succeeded.

They conducted secret negotiations, and from what I gathered from the show, they never spoke out publically about ending the war. Remember that the original vote for war was tied 4-4 before Delenn voted. Why weren't they proposing an open embassy to arrange a peace treaty? The warrior caste may have the ships and guns, but they would still have to follow the will of the counsel if it sought an end to the war other than genocide.

Probably because there already was a declaration of war! They were making the first tenative steps towards open negotiations. If you remember Lenonn was simply there to get things set up for formal negotiations. Instead he got killed and the war went on.

They would have been overruled or flat out deposed. Remember, they could have stripped Delenn of her councel position if they had tried. The warriors were firmly in charge at that point. What had to happen was the council as a whole would reconsider the war.

BTW, they only succeded at the end because they convinced the Grey Counsel that there were religious reasons why they couldn't kill humans, never that the war should be stopped because it was wrong.

Given that Earth Alliance did start a war they have ever reason to finish it. I think the Minbari had ever reason to go to war. We would in similar circumstances. EarthForce killed their leader and demi-messiah, shot up their ships, and left and you think that isn't an act of war?

Actually those religious reasons did make it wrong.

[Enlightenment]

Amen, Alex. I think far too many people have been making excuses for the Minbari because:

1. Many think they have the coolest ships in B5.
2. They initiated the Rangers and the Army of Light, plus were a major reason for the ISA getting started.

1. The boneheads' ships are posterchildren for bad design.

2. The ISA was a moronic idea. "Lets give our strategic technologies to a bunch of races who deeply hate our guts." What fucking idiots thought that was a bright move? Oh, wait, Sheridan and Mrs. Bonehead. Enough said.

I'm not making excuses for the Minbari; I'm aruging that EA was nothing more than a bunch of worthless hatfuckers who deserved to get cut down to size and that xenocide--even if the Minbari intended to go that far--wouldn't have removed anything of value from the B5 universe.

[Stormbringer]

Actually, from what I remember, they were planning on eliminating all resistance, then coming back later for everyone else.

Not to mention that came from Earth Force Command, not exactly the most objective and informed source. It's at best informed speculation.

[Malecoda]

Part of the reaosn is that the Minbari were WIPING THE FLOOR up with humanity and Sheridan's act was their biggest defeat, not only just the warcruiser but it happened to be crewed by the finest officers and men in the military (I don't think the US hasna ship like that)

Any aircraft carrier... There is enough "fineness" in the human race that you can find a large number of "the finest". CVs, BBs when they were elite, subs, just abt any ship, requires their crew to be shit hot.

Think of it this way. It would be as if on the last day of the Gulf War when the hundred hour ground war is nearly up and we've just KICKED Sadaam's ass up and down the desrt with relatively light casualties, an unknown Iraqi commander manages to sink an aircraft carrier by hitting it with underwater mines or some such.

They were expecting a cakewalk and when the enemy wasn't as stupid and as weak as they were led to believe they got pissed. Check out the movie "In the Beginning" it shows you alot of what went on in the war and you can see the arrogance in the Minbarri warrior cast as the war wound down. They were kicking ass and taking names and suffering light casualties and everyone likes to be in that position.

Sure. that's war. You don't have to make up situations to show us an example. An easy one would be Bismark vs. Hood. Were the Brits pussies bec they got pissed? Was Jellicoe a pussy? What abt us, when the Sammy B. got mined. Did sinking Iran's whole navy make us weak somehow?

[MKSheppard]

*parachutes in*

this thread has been liberated by its creator!

(throws PPSh-41 to Vympel)

[MKSheppard]

EA launched an unprovoked attack against the Minbari government, killing both its leader and several members of the GC.

Gee, so the EA ships should have just let anyone point weapons at then?

If it locks onto you, or is coming towards you in a hostile manner, it dies.

[Stormbringer]

EA launched an unprovoked attack against the Minbari government, killing both its leader and several members of the GC.

Gee, so the EA ships should have just let anyone point weapons at then?

If it locks onto you, or is coming towards you in a hostile manner, it dies.

Shep, the exact circumstances are a little different than that.

The EA ships invaded Minbari space before they ever fired the shots. The EA ships fired first and killed their leader.

That's like Mexico making an incursion into Texas and when confronted with drawn guns, responding by opening fire and killing our President and several cabinet members. The EA was clearly in the wrong.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, the exact circumstances are a little different than that.

The EA ships invaded Minbari space before they ever fired the shots. The EA ships fired first and killed their leader.

uh no

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/universe/ ... -line.html

Originally written by J. Michael Straczynski on GEnie
The Earth/Minbari war began as a misunderstanding. The first time a Terran ship encountered a Minbari starship, they studied each other closely. The Minbari ship made a move that they thought would be considered non- threatening. It wasn't. Even in the present of our story, no one is quite sure who fired first. The Minbari ship was greater in power, but taken by surprise, was destroyed, and the Earth ship limped back to base with tales of a terrible new enemy. Minbari ships, arriving to investigate, were interpreted to be the first wing of an invasion force by the base commander, and ships were launched in response before receiving formal authorization from Earth Central.

So basically, human/minbari ships meet in deep space, and the minbari
have the FUCKING BRIGHT idea of pointing their guns at the unknown
ship to show "respect"

Fucking morons have never heard of saluting cannons, eh?

[Stormbringer]

Shep, the exact circumstances are a little different than that.

The EA ships invaded Minbari space before they ever fired the shots. The EA ships fired first and killed their leader.

uh no

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/universe/ ... -line.html

So basically, human/minbari ships meet in deep space, and the minbari
have the FUCKING BRIGHT idea of pointing their guns at the unknown
ship to show "respect"

They met in deep space outside a Minbari transfer point (aka jumpgate) as stated in ItB, Shep. That's bonehead territory by definition.

Fucking morons have never heard of saluting cannons, eh?

Yeah, I have. Are you trying to make the case for the EA's itchy trigger fingers for me?

[MKSheppard]

Yeah, I have. Are you trying to make the case for the EA's itchy trigger fingers for me?

The US Navy has done the same before. Go look up the USS Vincennes
Incident.

[Stormbringer]

Yeah, I have. Are you trying to make the case for the EA's itchy trigger fingers for me?

The US Navy has done the same before. Go look up the USS Vincennes
Incident.

And I seem to recall that being a bad thing.

If Iran hadn't been a thrid world power we would have been in deep trouble for that. And that's ordinary civilians. Shep, the EA killed their leader and messianic figure.

Now, start making sense or shut the fuck up!

[Graeme Dice]

... none of which continue to trumpet the glory of those ancient slaughters in "Scriptures".

"I felled 3,000 of their fighting men with the sword. I carried
off prisoners, possessions, oxen and cattle from them. I burnt
many captives from them. I captured many troops alive, I cut
off some of their hands and arms; I cut off of others their
noses, ears and extremities. I gouged out the eyes of many
troops. I made one pile of the living and one of heads. I
hung their heads on trees around the city. I burnt their
adolescent boys and girls. I razed, destroyed,
burnt and consumed the city."
-- Assyrian Royal Annals (Quoted in J. Oates, Babylon)

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah, I have. Are you trying to make the case for the EA's itchy trigger fingers for me?

The US Navy has done the same before. Go look up the USS Vincennes
Incident.

And I seem to recall that being a bad thing.

If Iran hadn't been a thrid world power we would have been in deep trouble for that. And that's ordinary civilians. Shep, the EA killed their leader and messianic figure.

Now, start making sense or shut the fuck up!

If Iran wasn't a third world power there would be no tanker war, and thus tighter ROE for USN vessels that require VID.

[Alex Moon]

EA launched an unprovoked attack against the Minbari government, killing both its leader and several members of the GC.

Gee, so the EA ships should have just let anyone point weapons at then?

If it locks onto you, or is coming towards you in a hostile manner, it dies.

Shep, the exact circumstances are a little different than that.

The EA ships invaded Minbari space before they ever fired the shots. The EA ships fired first and killed their leader.

That's like Mexico making an incursion into Texas and when confronted with drawn guns, responding by opening fire and killing our President and several cabinet members. The EA was clearly in the wrong.

Except that doesn't really tell the whole story of what happened. The EA task force tried to flee when they were spotted, but their jump drives were disabled by the Minbari scanners. The captain tried to communicate that they meant no harm, but got no response except the Minbari approaching with gunports open. It was only then that he fired. Once the scanners on the Grey Council's ship were damaged enough, the EA ships were able to flee.

[SyntaxVorlon]

1. The boneheads' ships are posterchildren for bad design.

2. The ISA was a moronic idea. "Lets give our strategic technologies to a bunch of races who deeply hate our guts." What fucking idiots thought that was a bright move? Oh, wait, Sheridan and Mrs. Bonehead. Enough said.

I'm not making excuses for the Minbari; I'm aruging that EA was nothing more than a bunch of worthless hatfuckers who deserved to get cut down to size and that xenocide--even if the Minbari intended to go that far--wouldn't have removed anything of value from the B5 universe.

1: The Minbari ships are designed to give the fastest, most destructive blasts of energy in the shortest amount of time, cutting through other ships like butter. Their best defense is good offense. Their ships are based on aesthetic value. The Sharlin is the most powerful ship amongst the young races, but it is not the best armored.

2: If you can call an idea that apparently worked moronic go ahead. The Minbari were not giving all of their technology away, but enough to make the humans join the league and bring non gravetic tech races up to standards. They were forcing the entire league to join the ISA, and they also provided a provision that made it so that if any power attacked another, then the rest of the ISA would move in defense of the attacked. The ISA had the most valuable military force in the area at that point, with the WhiteStars and Minbari Fleet. And if you weren't watching plenty of humans hate the EA's guts already and were ready to join the rangers. The EA itself is powerful but still lacks a definate military presense.
Also the League had been united under the Shadow war and had come together again to free the EA of the Clarke fasists. Also nobody but the EA conservatives had reason to dislike the Minbari.

You've presented a bunch of pointless, bad arguements for why this was a bad idea, have you got any more?

[Darth Wong]

As an aside, the "gun ports open" idea is the most fantastically stupid idea I've ever heard. It's cultural relativism gone wild. Since when did JMS think that any culture, no matter how alien, would consider bared weapons a peaceful sign?

All throughout the entire fucking animal kingdom, bared weapons (ie- teeth, fangs, claws, etc) are a sign of aggression and a warning to the wary. There is a reason for this: IT FUCKING MAKES SENSE!!! If you're preparing to fight, you don't sheathe your weapons!

But noooooo, along come the Minbari, and all of a sudden, you open your gunports to announce your peaceful intentions! What the fuck do they do when they plan to attack somebody? CLOSE their gunports? What the fuck kind of imbecilic idea was this "gun ports open to show respect" shit, anyway?

Cultural relativism only goes so far; there comes a point when something is just so illogical that even a completely fucked-up society wouldn't do it. You don't adopt a fighting posture when you want the other person to think you come in peace.

[Stormbringer]

As an aside, the "gun ports open" idea is the most fantastically stupid idea I've ever heard. It's cultural relativism gone wild. Since when did JMS think that any culture, no matter how alien, would consider bared weapons a peaceful sign?

Actually, it's not so far fetched. It's a warrior tradition similar to firing a salute to the flag. It's a show of respect for the strength of the opponent.

Not the best idea in a first contact situation but not impossible in a tradition rooted culture like the Warrior Caste Minbari.

[jaeger115]

Actually, it's not so far fetched. It's a warrior tradition similar to firing a salute to the flag. It's a show of respect for the strength of the opponent.

And guns are similar to flags how?

[Darth Wong]

I am aware of no tradition in which you approach somebody while pointing a gun at him in a show of peaceful "respect" for him.

[Crown]

The gun ports open I can understand (stretch-yes, but understandable) it's when they actually 'spiked' their weapons (or at least that's what the EA thought) that was stupid... Remember these people don't have shields, so it was sort of like; here are our weapons, you can see them, they aren't armed, but if you make a wrong move they can be. Think about it, wouldn't it be stupid for a race without shielding to be unprepared to defend themselves?

[Enlightenment]

If it locks onto you, or is coming towards you in a hostile manner, it dies.

It's statements like these that make me very glad that you're not in command of anything more dangerous than your mouth.

In naval and air warfare there are many situations where shooting first and asking questions later is the wrong response. In any case were the risk of massive escalation is high, it is vastly preferable to give the enemy a greater chance of getting in the first shots of WWIII rather than use Rambo-style ROE and run the risk of starting WWIII by accident.

In a scifi context, alien first contacts are definitely a situation where escalation is to be avoided at all costs. Running the risk of losing one ship--or even an entire taskforce--with a no-first-use ROE is vastly preferable to letting some hotheaded moron bring a superior alien power to the conclusion that your nation is nothing but a bunch of savages. It's much better to lose one ship and gain the knowledge that these aliens would really like to be left alone than to have some idiot defend his ship and doom his race at the same time.

Furthermore, as Stormbringer said, EA brought a fleet of warships right onto the Minbari doorstep. Not expecting the Minbari to respond to a possible invasion threat by telling EF to get lost at gunpoint is the height of insanity. Forget the warrior caste's idiotic gesture of respect; bring a fleet of warships near someone elses' territory uninvited and they'll be opening gunports with intent to shoot. There is absolutely no way that EF shouldn't have expected this kind of response and briefed its captains appropriately.

[Stormbringer]

Actually, it's not so far fetched. It's a warrior tradition similar to firing a salute to the flag. It's a show of respect for the strength of the opponent.

And guns are similar to flags how?

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

[MKSheppard]

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

With special saluting guns that just make lots of noise and smoke,
not with your main armament.

[MKSheppard]

It's statements like these that make me very glad that you're not in command of anything more dangerous than your mouth.

Those are the standing ROEs for US pilots over Iraq enforcing the UN No-fly
zone. If you're being painted by Iraqi Fire control radar, you don't fly
straight and level. You pump flares out and send Mr Iraqi a HARM to
put his radar out of action.