White Star vs Defiant

[Sektor31]

The argument about a ~4 GW powering a phaser bank is really moot, because even a regular particle/laser could have as much power as 10 tons and still do damage, although small.

Also, PTs and QTs are rated in isotons, not megatons. Isotons is basically a fancy way of saying regular tons, just for some reason Trek writers put it like that.

A PT is rated 64 tons and QT is 128 tons. Iso means equal, so isoton means "equal to a ton".

[seanrobertson]

Don't take this the wrong way. But your smoking crack .

Ah-HEM. Heroin, for God's sake, Moriartty. Get
it right

Btw, I snort it. Ahhhh...

1. You cannot arbitrarily chose the firepower of the WS. Find proof or base it on something. Such as:

Oh, I quite agree. That's why I said it was really rough, and why
I thought it was a "golden mean," placing it somewhere between
the firepower of a Minbari fighter and that of a Shadow spider (which
I tend to rate at a few megatons/sec. based on their drilling
ops).

The trouble with coming up with an objective assessment of the
WS's firepower is that it really only can yield lower or upper-limits.
I was working with neither for Defiant, really; I was trying to
come up with something I felt accurately reflected her abilities.
Likewise, to cite the 12,500 TW upper-limit for WS firepower (see
Babtech) or a few terawatt lower-limit (for the ability to slice up
enemy ships, or at the very least, to equal a Nial's output) doesn't
really give us a meaningful basis for this versus context comparison.

a. First WS took her jump drive offline and this allowed her main gun to kill a fullblown Shadow ship. This was one of their man class of ships not a small one.

Agreed. I'm a proud analyst at Babtech, but I didn't want to simply
reiterate Brian's work Same reason I tried to come up with a
semi-independent analysis of Defiant's likely torpedo firepower,
and not completely echo Michael.

But to speak to that example, it gives us a generous upper-limit,
for which I don't really have something similar regarding Defiant.
Comparing her likely firepower to WS's upper-limit really isn't fair.

b. Delenn's WS fired a standard strength beam and instantly cored a Drak flagship that was several miles long. Not only did it core the ship (the long way) but then the beam was played around the ship (tip of beam wiggled) and at no point did the beam stop coring through the length of the ship.

I don't remember that one. It's also hard to determine anything
firm from it...it's likely that it'd take a terawatt-ranged weapon to
carve through a ship like that (same with Warcruiser and spider
firepower), but it's not a "limit" estimate.

2. The speed of torps means nothing. It is quite obvious that ST torps are much faster than they are maneuverable. They zip along quite quickly but they also miss the most lumbering of targets. A perfect example is in ST2. Khan fired at the Enterprise BEFORE it entered the nebula. The Enterprise is going straight line and well below warp speed. The torp missed completely and there was no proximity setting on the torp.

Umm...I have to disagree inasmuch as this is the beginning of a straw man: you'll note that I *did* say their tracking ability is pretty shitty.
Still, I said that to try and demonstrate WS won't be outrunning them.
Thus, she must dodge them. And when she tries to do that, her
impressive straight-line acceleration is something much less. It's
possible the torpedoes would be too fast to miss or (more likely) would be worthwhile as proximity devices, which is my main concern. That brings us to...

Which leads to a question. I don't ever remember it happening but when has ST torps ever detonated with a prox setting? If it hasnt happened on-screen then you arent killing the Mimbari fighters with prox torps.

Well, I think the fighters *could* be taken care of with the standard
phaser emitters IF they could hit them. They're not especially tough, or really much faster than targets we've seen such phasers nail. But then again, I'm getting ahead of myself here: those fighters *do* have a unique stealth system. (Does the WS get to use fighters in this scenario?)

And we have "seen" proximity torpedoes in a sense; the Kazon
detonated torpedoes in VGR's flight path at one point in "Basics."
We saw VGR shudder from the bridge, but we didn't actually see
the torpedoes going off outside.

So, it is possible when you're dealing with a ship that's hard
to hit--at least one of VGR's size. Proximity detonations might not
actually be very effective against the fighters in this case, since
it would've been highly advantageous for the E-D to use proximity
photorps in "Arsenal of Freedom" against a small target. She
never even tried, of course.

I think they probably would be of some use against the WS.
And of course, the fact is that Defiant does have a higher
maximum firing range than WS does (300,000 km vs. less than
3,000). The phasers might be useless at that range, but the
torpedoes wouldn't necessarily be.

Since typical engagements show Defiants right on top of
a target, though, that's not very important. Besideswhich, I don't
really like the idea of one side getting blown away before they
even have a chance to strut their stuff

[seanrobertson]

The argument about a ~4 GW powering a phaser bank is really moot, because even a regular particle/laser could have as much power as 10 tons and still do damage, although small.

Also, PTs and QTs are rated in isotons, not megatons. Isotons is basically a fancy way of saying regular tons, just for some reason Trek writers put it like that.

A PT is rated 64 tons and QT is 128 tons. Iso means equal, so isoton means "equal to a ton".

We don't know exactly what an "isoton" entails, though. You're
accepting the TM's values for torpedoes (actually, it's 25 and
50+ isotons), but not the way in which we derive the yield itself.

That, too, is a moot point, since the TMs aren't admissable.

And the fact is, 64 tons doesn't cut it. A 64 ton explosion is
only equal to 267 gigajoules. Less than half that would strike
the target, of course...so we could say the NX-01's fwd. firepower
is at least double or triple a photorp/sec.? No way. (And yes,
I pretty much gave up on ENT after the first season. I
did like "Dead Stop" in season two, but much as I dislike
the show, it is supposedly canon.)

267 GJ wouldn't be adequate to destroy even the small
asteroids of "Genesis," the somewhat larger one in "Rise,"
or the 5 km wide asteroid in "Pegasus," even if we assumed
Riker was off and it'd take all 250 photorps to shatter the
'roid.

It definitely wouldn't be adequate to conduct any kind of
worthwhile planetary assault operation, which ships were
capable of in TOS (though that itself doesn't entail anything
more than kiloton torpedoes). It'd also mean that photorps
somehow magically do about ten times more energy depletion
than a single second's worth of the time the E-D spent in
the corona of a star in "Relics" (which, incidentally, she would've
withstood for roughly 12 hours with full shields, given that
23% shields were supposed to take three hours of exposure).

Maybe you were being facetious I'm not trying to bust your
balls. I'm also definitely not out to contend photorps are even
in the tens of megatons range...as I said earlier, I could see
that shields might--MIGHT--be able to withstand 25 megatons
prior to total failure. Because their burst capacity is probably
lower than what they could withstand over a long period, I
can accept something along the lines of a tenth that figure, which
helps explain why 10 250 kT photorps could kill a capable warship
in a few minutes of fighting.

But I'm just as much against the idea that Trek ships are
limited to gigajoule-ranged weapons. For them to utilize
the power sources they do and be so restricted is flat-out weird,
on top of all the other problems, some of which I've touched on.
Given the danger of antimatter, if that's the best they could do,
they'd be far better off just making a space-worthy equivalent of daisy-cutters for weapons.

[Sektor31]

The argument about a ~4 GW powering a phaser bank is really moot, because even a regular particle/laser could have as much power as 10 tons and still do damage, although small.

Also, PTs and QTs are rated in isotons, not megatons. Isotons is basically a fancy way of saying regular tons, just for some reason Trek writers put it like that.

A PT is rated 64 tons and QT is 128 tons. Iso means equal, so isoton means "equal to a ton".

We don't know exactly what an "isoton" entails, though. You're
accepting the TM's values for torpedoes (actually, it's 25 and
50+ isotons), but not the way in which we derive the yield itself.

That, too, is a moot point, since the TMs aren't admissable.

And the fact is, 64 tons doesn't cut it. A 64 ton explosion is
only equal to 267 gigajoules. Less than half that would strike
the target, of course...so we could say the NX-01's fwd. firepower
is at least double or triple a photorp/sec.? No way. (And yes,
I pretty much gave up on ENT after the first season. I
did like "Dead Stop" in season two, but much as I dislike
the show, it is supposedly canon.)

Yeah...NX-01's "phase cannons" are too powerful. It's hard to believe that the Feddies downgraded their weapons. Anyway, phaser yields are variable, we've seen them melt craters into planets and barely touch a Cardassian cruiser.

267 GJ wouldn't be adequate to destroy even the small
asteroids of "Genesis," the somewhat larger one in "Rise,"
or the 5 km wide asteroid in "Pegasus," even if we assumed
Riker was off and it'd take all 250 photorps to shatter the
'roid.

50 MT is a hydrogen bomb yield, and those photorps are too weak for that. Coming to think of it, quantorps aren't that strong either...hmm.

It definitely wouldn't be adequate to conduct any kind of
worthwhile planetary assault operation, which ships were
capable of in TOS (though that itself doesn't entail anything
more than kiloton torpedoes). It'd also mean that photorps
somehow magically do about ten times more energy depletion
than a single second's worth of the time the E-D spent in
the corona of a star in "Relics" (which, incidentally, she would've
withstood for roughly 12 hours with full shields, given that
23% shields were supposed to take three hours of exposure).

We've seen shields being degraded by amounts of 10 when being fired at constantly, but after a short trip to deck X and back to the bridge, the shields are magically near that last %! I assume that inner deflector layers are more "powerful", but there are doubts.

Maybe you were being facetious I'm not trying to bust your
balls. I'm also definitely not out to contend photorps are even
in the tens of megatons range...as I said earlier, I could see
that shields might--MIGHT--be able to withstand 25 megatons
prior to total failure. Because their burst capacity is probably
lower than what they could withstand over a long period, I
can accept something along the lines of a tenth that figure, which
helps explain why 10 250 kT photorps could kill a capable warship
in a few minutes of fighting.

But I'm just as much against the idea that Trek ships are
limited to gigajoule-ranged weapons. For them to utilize
the power sources they do and be so restricted is flat-out weird,
on top of all the other problems, some of which I've touched on.
Given the danger of antimatter, if that's the best they could do,
they'd be far better off just making a space-worthy equivalent of daisy-cutters for weapons.

Eh, it's no problem, I like debates =). Trek weapons are kinda wavery when it comes to raw power. In ST:V, the Photorp exploded like a regular chemical-based bomb, but in ST:VI, roughly 5 photorps could defeat a shielded BoP. In ST:G, the Enterprise barely damaged the "defective" BoP.[/quote]

[Brian Young]

Sean,

A few points.
*It doesn't make much sense for Worf to compare the Husnok weapons to phasers' NDF thing, because phasers would only affect shields by their actual energy delivery/firepower. It is like firing a glob of antimatter at a target. If the target is shielded, this would only have the effect of kinetic energy/momentum. It has to react with the hull to cause a lot of damage. Same with phasers. If 400 gigawatt particle beam weapons can penetrate the E-D shields, I don't see why any other ship with 400 gigawatt weapons can't defeat the E-D shields.
*It is difficult to be sure, but do you feel that torpedoes would be more difficult to dodge than the fireballs from Shadow fighters?
*Slave1's cannons put out up to 2 kilotons per shot. They fire several times per second. Riker said that ~4 gigawatts is enough to power "a small phaser bank." Thus, it can deliver no more than 4 gigawatts of firepower, and this is what has to penetrate the shields, not NDF. Slave1's cannons put out many kilotons per second (confirmed by smashing several asteroids per second in AOTC), thousands of times more powerful than "a small phaser bank." If the 400 (worth ONE HUNDRED of those "small phaser banks") gigawatt number is believed, Slave1 can defeat any Trek ship's shields easily.

But some other points were raised about the Whitestar. Range is limited to a few thousand kilometers.

Good point about the warp engines offline in "The Dauphin." I wasn't aware of that.

It appears that the problem in deciding who has the advantage is with Trek's inconsistencies. One episode may show shields worth several thousand terawatts. Another may show them worth a few hundred gigawatts.

I still remain undecided in this particular crossover.

[Uraniun235]

In ST:V, the Photorp exploded like a regular chemical-based bomb, but in ST:VI, roughly 5 photorps could defeat a shielded BoP.

IIRC, we see the photorp streak down, and then out of LOS it explodes. Yet, for the time it's LOS, IIRC it should have gone farther down than the surface level before it exploded... unless you'd care to tell me it just landed on the ground, sat there for a little bit, and then decided to explode.

I think the torpedo penetrated the ground a short distance before detonating.

There's also the possibility that they deliberately under-charged the torpedo so as to not endanger the Captain... the (non-canon) TM says that torpedos are charged with AM in the tube, and given the occasional dialogue of "torpedoes, maximum yield", it seems reasonable to assume they can change the yield of the torpedo at will.

As for the "microjumps" in ST... "Peak Performance", Picard orders "warp 3 evasive" in order to reposition for an "attack" on Riker. Not necessarily a "microjump", but it shows that SF starships can make quick runs at warp in order to evade fire long enough to get in a more suitable firing position.

[Connor MacLeod]

It seems to me that if the energy that causes the NDF effect reflects off the hull, then it can't very well cause any NDF effects. There's plenty of evidence that B5 races already use particle weapons, and the Whitestar's seem to handle them perfectly well.

That might work. Depends on how it interacts I imagine (I always figured the Defense system was a forcefield-based defense) - if its reflected/deflected before touching the hull, I'd probably agree.

[Darth Wong]

Aw, fuck it. Just throw an ISD in there, and then we'll have a definitive winner

[The Dark]

Aw, fuck it. Just throw an ISD in there, and then we'll have a definitive winner

Pfft. Throw Tantive IV in there and we'll have a winner .

[Ghost Rider]

No, Slave-1 can still be there...Boba deserves his due.

[Connor MacLeod]

Aw, fuck it. Just throw an ISD in there, and then we'll have a definitive winner

HAH! Now you're just attempting to change the rules of the scenario

Besides which, I'd say a Corellian Gunship would be a better choice

[Sarevok]

In a battle between a defiant and a whitestar the defiant wins easily. The defiant has greater firepower and can take more damgage than the whitestar making it the winner by default. However some rabid babylon 5
fans refuse to accept the obvious facts and continue to belive babylon 5
ships are stronger than star trek ships.

Pulse phasers and quantom torpedoes are defiants main weopens. Quantom torpedoes of yields of 128 megatons while pulse phasers appear
to be at least as powerful as photon torpedo since they can destroy ships capable of surviving the 64 megaton blast of a photon torpedo. Considering the fact that the whitestar was destroyed by 2 megaton nuclear devices the defiants weopens will tear it apart easily.

The defiant has shields capable of withstanding hundreds megatons of energy. The 400 GW husnock particle beam fallacy does not hold as it was a shield draining weopen like a borg shield disruptor. Even if the whitestar uses highly unlikely tacticts of ramming her fighters into the defiants shields to bring them down it still loses. The structral integrity fields holding the defiants hull togather can withstand multiple 64 megaton torpedo blasts before failing. So it is clear that there is no way the whitestars kiloton level weopens can destroy the defiant.

Much has been said on the whitestars organic armor which can supposedly learn to deal with damage more efficiently. However organic armor is no substitute for the whitestars lack of shields. Though organic armor can adapt to reduce the amount of damage from enemy weopens the ship still takes damage. Shields on the other hand protect the ship completly untill the go down. Even after the shields fail organic armor is still inferior to metallic armor see the brainbugs page as to why. Furthermore federation phasers are extemely effective against organic materials just see how hand phasers vaporize people. A single hit from the
defiants phasers would totaly disinegrate the whitestar.

The stealth capability of the whitestar would be no use against the defiant.
Every type of stealth technlogy designed foil a specific type of sensors. The whitestars stealth system can defeat babylon 5 sensors. However since the defiant has subspace sensors it would not be effected since babylon 5 does not have subspace technology. Furthermore the defiant has a cloaking device making totaly invisible to tha whitestar. Even if the defiant does not employ the cloak it still might be invisble. In Futures end Voyger demonstrated how shields can be modulated to defeat EM sensors.
Since the whitestar uses EM sensors it would not be able to detect the defiant.

Whitestars superior maneuverability would not be useful against the defiant. Photon torpedoes have ranges of 3.5 million kilometers compared only 3000 kilometers for the whitestar. The whitestar would be destroyed before it can close in for a dogfight. Furthermore the defiant can engage targets while moving faster than light using warp drive. So the whitestar won't be able hit the defiant or avoid incoming torpedoes.

[DocMoriartty]

In a battle between a defiant and a whitestar the defiant wins easily. The defiant has greater firepower and can take more damgage than the whitestar making it the winner by default. However some rabid babylon 5
fans refuse to accept the obvious facts and continue to belive babylon 5
ships are stronger than star trek ships.

Pulse phasers and quantom torpedoes are defiants main weopens. Quantom torpedoes of yields of 128 megatons while pulse phasers appear
to be at least as powerful as photon torpedo since they can destroy ships capable of surviving the 64 megaton blast of a photon torpedo. Considering the fact that the whitestar was destroyed by 2 megaton nuclear devices the defiants weopens will tear it apart easily.

The defiant has shields capable of withstanding hundreds megatons of energy. The 400 GW husnock particle beam fallacy does not hold as it was a shield draining weopen like a borg shield disruptor. Even if the whitestar uses highly unlikely tacticts of ramming her fighters into the defiants shields to bring them down it still loses. The structral integrity fields holding the defiants hull togather can withstand multiple 64 megaton torpedo blasts before failing. So it is clear that there is no way the whitestars kiloton level weopens can destroy the defiant.

Much has been said on the whitestars organic armor which can supposedly learn to deal with damage more efficiently. However organic armor is no substitute for the whitestars lack of shields. Though organic armor can adapt to reduce the amount of damage from enemy weopens the ship still takes damage. Shields on the other hand protect the ship completly untill the go down. Even after the shields fail organic armor is still inferior to metallic armor see the brainbugs page as to why. Furthermore federation phasers are extemely effective against organic materials just see how hand phasers vaporize people. A single hit from the
defiants phasers would totaly disinegrate the whitestar.

The stealth capability of the whitestar would be no use against the defiant.
Every type of stealth technlogy designed foil a specific type of sensors. The whitestars stealth system can defeat babylon 5 sensors. However since the defiant has subspace sensors it would not be effected since babylon 5 does not have subspace technology. Furthermore the defiant has a cloaking device making totaly invisible to tha whitestar. Even if the defiant does not employ the cloak it still might be invisble. In Futures end Voyger demonstrated how shields can be modulated to defeat EM sensors.
Since the whitestar uses EM sensors it would not be able to detect the defiant.

Whitestars superior maneuverability would not be useful against the defiant. Photon torpedoes have ranges of 3.5 million kilometers compared only 3000 kilometers for the whitestar. The whitestar would be destroyed before it can close in for a dogfight. Furthermore the defiant can engage targets while moving faster than light using warp drive. So the whitestar won't be able hit the defiant or avoid incoming torpedoes.

Get the facts.

1. The origional Whitestar was destroyed when it crashed into a planet carrying TWO 500 megaton bombs onboard which detonated.

2. There is no proof the Husnok weapon was a shield drainer. That is a straight out lie. When the E-D was hit with the weapon this ship shook violently. This means the shields and ship were battered by the energy. This would not have happened if the shields were drained.

3. When has the SI field of the Defiant ALONE stopped multiple torps? This would be a neat trick since the SI field is only focused on stress points of the hull to protect them from deformation.

4. Bullshit. How often do consoles explode when a ship takes a hit that has not yet penetrated the shields? How often does Riker report damage to this or that deck from hits even though the shields are not yet down? This shows that either a portion of the power penetrates the shields with every hit or the feedback does the damage. On the other hand WS reflectic armor reflects 90% plus of the energy back into space and the self-repairing hull fixes any damage caused by the energy that gets through.

5. Minbari ships were undetectable from day one to EArthforce ships. This was before they had any idea what kind of tech the Earthforce ships had. So lack of knowledge about enemy tech does automatically mean stealthy won't work.

6. Tell me one specific line where they tell you EM sensors are used on the WS and are the only sensors used. You won't be able to because yet again you are lying your moronic ass off. Bab5 rarely if ever went into details about such things.

7. ROFLMAO!!! Show me one fucking time a torpedo on screen was fired at a target more than a few hundred miles away. Torps can't do shit unless the target is well within visual range. What the show fanboy whore.

[seanrobertson]

Sean,

A few points.
*It doesn't make much sense for Worf to compare the Husnok weapons to phasers' NDF thing, because phasers would only affect shields by their actual energy delivery/firepower. It is like firing a glob of antimatter at a target. If the target is shielded, this would only have the effect of kinetic energy/momentum. It has to react with the hull to cause a lot of damage. Same with phasers. If 400 gigawatt particle beam weapons can penetrate the E-D shields, I don't see why any other ship with 400 gigawatt weapons can't defeat the E-D shields.

I know what you mean.

I'm not entirely sure that phasers are limited to their kinetic
energy when striking shields, however. The NDF effect needs
matter w/ which to interact, true, so the antimatter beam model
holds up well in that respect.

I don't think it holds up well when we consider shield resistance
to photorps and solar radiation. We have examples of torpedoes
used against inert materials like asteroids, and they appear to
yield at least several kilotons. I'd contend hundreds of kilotons
are likely.

Even if a shield has to cope with only a quarter of that energy or
so, it's still deflecting dozens of terajoules, and at a decent
rate as well; i.e., forgetting the nanosecond detonation nonsense,
photorps appear to release their energy in a frame or two of video.
Thus, the shields can withstand perhaps...oh, say, 80 TW minimum,
since single photorps don't knock those shields down (albeit
the fact they *do* seem to bleed through and knock the ship around,
cause damage to some systems, and so on).

Same story with an episode like "Relics." My guess of the shield
resistance in that episode is 2.8 TW, I think. I can't remember
my estimate of the frontal area, but it's not far from Michael's.
I also might've used a refined estimate of the star's power (?).

Anyway, they could stand up to that for 3 hours, ignoring solar flares, with shields at roughly a quarter of full strength. So their total energy
absorption is on the order of 120,000 terajoules. We know their
burst capacity has to be lower, but it's at least enough to protect
the ship from a small spread of torpedoes; e.g., a five photorp
spread did "moderate damage to their [K'Vort's] fwd. shields"
in "Yesterday's Enterprise."

With even an effective yield of five kilotons/torpedo, that's
a 250 TW burst capacity. Since I think torpedoes are more like
250 kT apiece, 5 of them detonating in a tenth/second
would mean the shields could withstand 12,500 TW without
failing.

Boy, that's a convenient no. I swear I didn't mean for it
to turn out that way!

Obviously, they cannot sustain this level of bombardment
very long. If sustained for two or three seconds, the shields
would drop, based on the K'Vort's performance anyhow.
So it'd appear the shields can handle roughly 10-20% of
their long-term capacity if such energy is delivered rapidly...say,
within a couple of minutes?

I can't explain why gigawatt-ranged phasers and disruptors
would have effects similar to sizable kiloton hits, since they
don't really have anything they can react with. Perhaps
the charged particles interfere with shield function, or perhaps
it's a variant on the bane of TNG+ Trek, subspace interaction?

Ultimately the effects are all that's important. The alternative
is to somehow rationalize how torpedoes are limited to
gigajoule-ranged yields, which doesn't account for their
observed abilities. It makes very little sense, however
anal the crew might be, in fearing photon detonations at
ranges ~5-10 km in episodes like "Q Who?" And it would require
that, in episodes like "Relics," the stars the ship orbits would
be severely underpowered--to the extent that the Dyson Sphere
interior would be frozen over rather than somewhat lush.

It'd also mean that the NX-01 would have more firepower than
the E-D, and perhaps stronger defenses to boot, as per
the NX's ability to survive a quarter kiloton mine in a Romulan
system, their 500 GJ phase cannons which should be quantified
as gigawatts, anyway...grr...

I do not want that...I'll grant them bigger boobs on ENT, but the line
must be drawn HERE!

*It is difficult to be sure, but do you feel that torpedoes would be more difficult to dodge than the fireballs from Shadow fighters?

No, you're right...I had totally forgotten that WS could dodge
those. Photorps may well be limited to proximity detonations.

*Slave1's cannons put out up to 2 kilotons per shot. They fire several times per second. Riker said that ~4 gigawatts is enough to power "a small phaser bank." Thus, it can deliver no more than 4 gigawatts of firepower, and this is what has to penetrate the shields, not NDF. Slave1's cannons put out many kilotons per second (confirmed by smashing several asteroids per second in AOTC), thousands of times more powerful than "a small phaser bank." If the 400 (worth ONE HUNDRED of those "small phaser banks") gigawatt number is believed, Slave1 can defeat any Trek ship's shields easily.

I still think the effective firepower is what's most important, but
now that you mention it, 2 kiloton shots (per bolt?) times about
five shots/barrel/sec. does translate to shield-draining firepower,
even if you went with my interpretation of things. It might take
her a little while, but if Slave's shields are at all like
those on the MF or similar-sized craft, she could probably
take the E-D's entire photorp inventory several times over before
being in real trouble!

That is, at least, if I'm not butchering things...Amidala's SR-71
had million terawatt level shields, didn't it? It's mostly a defense-oriented
ship, but you'd expect the Fetts' ship would have *roughly* comparable
shields.

But some other points were raised about the Whitestar. Range is limited to a few thousand kilometers.

I don't think that'll be a problem in dealing with a Defiant,
even if her torpedo range is greater. The WS might have time to
destroy inbound torpedoes as they enter the periphery of her
effective weapons range.

It appears that the problem in deciding who has the advantage is with Trek's inconsistencies. One episode may show shields worth several thousand terawatts. Another may show them worth a few hundred gigawatts.

I still remain undecided in this particular crossover.

Yeah. I make a real effort to try to piece all of the Trek puzzle
together, but in the end, you truly are left with a damned inconsistent
bunch. It requires a LOT of rationalizations, like some of the above,
to make a half-way clear picture...

I don't know that this crossover will ever be concluded to my
satisfaction either. It makes for an interesting comparison, though...
and hey, at least no one has mentioned anything about the
two ships' SIZES. If, ah-hem, *some* people were to be believed,
an onscreen Defiant consistently scaled to about 120m in
length would be "all wrong"; we'd have to run with the so-called
"official" figures for both subjects, which would mean the WS
is well over twice as long as Defiant.

I shouldn't be surprised that such hasn't come up in some form
over here, as this is the Star Destroyer B [no] BS. But I can't
get used to it

[seanrobertson]

Get the facts.

1. The origional Whitestar was destroyed when it crashed into a planet carrying TWO 500 megaton bombs onboard which detonated.

Yep. Cat had it confused with the Black Star.

2. There is no proof the Husnok weapon was a shield drainer. That is a straight out lie. When the E-D was hit with the weapon this ship shook violently. This means the shields and ship were battered by the energy. This would not have happened if the shields were drained.

Hmm...I've never really thought it was a "shield
drainer" as such, either, any more than a photorp would be.
It's possible I suppose, but possibilities don't good arguments
make.

I would qualify again, I do not think 400 GW from any source--even
particle beams--would knock the shields down. That would mean
a single NX-01 phase cannon shot could leave the E-D defenseless.
I rationalize the gigawatt number--and various other such figures,
including the 900 MW power build-up of a satellite's
phaser in "Battle Lines"--as the initial output, not the final effects
(even, yes, against shields, for reasons stated in the previous post).

3. When has the SI field of the Defiant ALONE stopped multiple torps? This would be a neat trick since the SI field is only focused on stress points of the hull to protect them from deformation.

Never. I don't recall SIFs ever protecting a ship from torpedo weapons.
Reinforced SIF helped the E-D avoid heavy damage from probably low-powered Cardassian phaser shots in "The Chase," but that's about it.

4. Bullshit. How often do consoles explode when a ship takes a hit that has not yet penetrated the shields? How often does Riker report damage to this or that deck from hits even though the shields are not yet down? This shows that either a portion of the power penetrates the shields with every hit or the feedback does the damage. On the other hand WS reflectic armor reflects 90% plus of the energy back into space and the self-repairing hull fixes any damage caused by the energy that gets through.

Not exactly.

I agree that Trek shields almost always show bleedthrough and/or
feedback. (It's probably both.) But the WS's defenses were never
stated to reflect X percentage of energy harmlessly away from the
ship. That wouldn't hold up, anyway, once you reached a certain
power threshold; e.g., deflecting 90% of the DS's blast wouldn't
be feasible.

All that's really said of the WS "defense system" is that
it learns from experience, and when it does "learn," it "[reflects]
most of the energy away, leaving only the physical impact."
Regardless of adaptation, capital ship-level hits deliver too
much energy for the defenses to do much good.

The trick is to find out what's "much energy" in B5.

7. ROFLMAO!!! Show me one fucking time a torpedo on screen was fired at a target more than a few hundred miles away. Torps can't do shit unless the target is well within visual range.

That's not entirely true, though they usually are limited to visual
range use.

As for examples, the torpedoes used in "Half a Life" travelled
thousands of kilometers to penetrate a star's core, and the
Phoenix nailed a Cardassian ship at about 300,000 km.

Neither of those examples are really workable in the context
of this thread, however. A WS isn't a lumbering Cardassian
warship or a star sitting still

[Sektor31]

In a battle between a defiant and a whitestar the defiant wins easily. The defiant has greater firepower and can take more damgage than the whitestar making it the winner by default. However some rabid babylon 5
fans refuse to accept the obvious facts and continue to belive babylon 5
ships are stronger than star trek ships.

I can assume you're also a rabid trekkie as well?

Pulse phasers and quantom torpedoes are defiants main weopens. Quantom torpedoes of yields of 128 megatons while pulse phasers appear
to be at least as powerful as photon torpedo since they can destroy ships capable of surviving the 64 megaton blast of a photon torpedo. Considering the fact that the whitestar was destroyed by 2 megaton nuclear devices the defiants weopens will tear it apart easily.

As I said before, it's NOT megatons. A 50 megaton weapon would equal a hydrogen bomb, and that's TOO overpowered. Also, you're confusing the Whitestar with the Black Star from In the Beginning.

The defiant has shields capable of withstanding hundreds megatons of energy. The 400 GW husnock particle beam fallacy does not hold as it was a shield draining weopen like a borg shield disruptor. Even if the whitestar uses highly unlikely tacticts of ramming her fighters into the defiants shields to bring them down it still loses. The structral integrity fields holding the defiants hull togather can withstand multiple 64 megaton torpedo blasts before failing. So it is clear that there is no way the whitestars kiloton level weopens can destroy the defiant.

Um...the Husnok weapon wasn't a shield killer. SI fields aren't that powerful. And the Defiant's weapons aren't godly like you may think.

Much has been said on the whitestars organic armor which can supposedly learn to deal with damage more efficiently. However organic armor is no substitute for the whitestars lack of shields. Though organic armor can adapt to reduce the amount of damage from enemy weopens the ship still takes damage. Shields on the other hand protect the ship completly untill the go down. Even after the shields fail organic armor is still inferior to metallic armor see the brainbugs page as to why. Furthermore federation phasers are extemely effective against organic materials just see how hand phasers vaporize people. A single hit from the
defiants phasers would totaly disinegrate the whitestar.

Whitestar organic armor can deflect pulse phasers if they take enough beating to "learn" it. Also, it can regenerate itself. The organic armor is like 8472's, except no technobabble virus can destroy it. Also, if organic armor was so inferior, then how was 8472 able to beat up Borg ships silly? Shadows and Vorlons in the B5 'verse as well. Also, ship phasers most certainly CANNOT vape a ship in battle, not only have we not seen it, but if that was the case the Dominion war would not have lasted as long as it did. Also, ship phasers cannot become more powerful than a photon torpedo.

The stealth capability of the whitestar would be no use against the defiant.
Every type of stealth technlogy designed foil a specific type of sensors. The whitestars stealth system can defeat babylon 5 sensors. However since the defiant has subspace sensors it would not be effected since babylon 5 does not have subspace technology. Furthermore the defiant has a cloaking device making totaly invisible to tha whitestar. Even if the defiant does not employ the cloak it still might be invisble. In Futures end Voyger demonstrated how shields can be modulated to defeat EM sensors.
Since the whitestar uses EM sensors it would not be able to detect the defiant.

Agreed, subspace sensors would penetrate the stealth. Also, the Defiant cannot fire while it's cloaked. Now, which body part did you pull EM sensors out of?

Whitestars superior maneuverability would not be useful against the defiant. Photon torpedoes have ranges of 3.5 million kilometers compared only 3000 kilometers for the whitestar. The whitestar would be destroyed before it can close in for a dogfight. Furthermore the defiant can engage targets while moving faster than light using warp drive. So the whitestar won't be able hit the defiant or avoid incoming torpedoes.

WHAT THE HELL? Photon torpedoes are NOT atomic bombs. Also, photon torpedoes cannot fly that far and be entirely accurate, they'll always miss by a distance. Whitestars could avoid Shadow slicer beams, and they certainly are VERY accurate (note the scene when SBCs annihalated a Narn fleet). Discounting the Enterprise scene, phasers cannot fire in warp, and ships can only battle in warp when they are both in warp, and Whitestars cannot warp. Also, note the Picard maneuver, you can't maneuver around a ship in warp because a half-second warp blast would ram into the enemy.

[seanrobertson]

I can assume you're also a rabid trekkie as well?

No offense to Cat, but heavy reliance on the TM tends
to indicate at least "newbie" status.

As I said before, it's NOT megatons. A 50 megaton weapon would equal a hydrogen bomb, and that's TOO overpowered. Also, you're confusing the Whitestar with the Black Star from In the Beginning.

Agreed.

I do think it's remotely possible that very high-yield photorps
are in the low megaton range. See my findings for proximity-detonation
photorps (250 kT minimum at 5 kilometers to hit the ship with
a mere 200 gigajoules, where the actual energy we're dealing
with is probably five or more times that before the ship is
truly in danger of destruction).

But 50 MT photorps? No. I can't find any evidence for torpedoes
of that power. 1-3 megatons perhaps, but that's pushing it IMO.

Um...the Husnok weapon wasn't a shield killer. SI fields aren't that powerful. And the Defiant's weapons aren't godly like you may think.

I think they're more powerful than my friends and fellow associates
at Babtech would generally contend, but not by a whole lot. To
be sure, they're not godly

Whitestar organic armor can deflect pulse phasers if they take enough beating to "learn" it. Also, it can regenerate itself. The organic armor is like 8472's, except no technobabble virus can destroy it. Also, if organic armor was so inferior, then how was 8472 able to beat up Borg ships silly?
Shadows and Vorlons in the B5 'verse as well. Also, ship phasers most certainly CANNOT vape a ship in battle, not only have we not seen it, but if that was the case the Dominion war would not have lasted as long as it did. Also, ship phasers cannot become more powerful than a photon torpedo.

Largely agreed here, though I do think if the pulse phaser cannons
score several clean hits, there would not be a WS around *to* adapt.

[Sektor31]

Largely agreed here, though I do think if the pulse phaser cannons
score several clean hits, there would not be a WS around *to* adapt.

Which, given the Defiant's rather astounding accuracy and the Whitestar's maneuverability, wouldn't be much of a problem to adapt to.

[The Silence and I]

Defiant wins, greater coverage, firepower, defense. Whitestar gets marks for accuracy and maneuverability- but lacks punch. If a 2 MT detonation does bad things to a Black Star, presumably similar to a White Star, then a few proximity torps should do it in. I would go as far as say a direct PPC hit should severely damage a Whitestar: It may not have the energy to take out the Whitestar through its energy defenses, but NDF must be considered. Phasers are stated to be particle weapons, and for once I agree with the dialog- phaser particles are easier to explain than some mysterious energy that turns atoms to neutrenos, and they will reach the hull=bad things. If fragmentation energy is used in Peagasus (which assumes Feds are smart enough to tell the torps to bury into the center) you will get a few KT per torpedo. If you use cratering energy, you get a handful of MT per torp. QTorps are supposed to be better. Well, doesn't look good for the Whitestar. (By the way, quotes from the show are almost never reasonable, consistent, smart, educated, etc when dealing with firepower and energy) So if a QTorp is oh, 12 MT, with half lost in space, then the whitestar can expect nearly 6 MT in a direct hit-far more than necessary when dealing with BlackStars. A single PPC pulse should be somewhere around 50-100 KT, based on the high rate of fire obseved. Even if PPC's can't hit the Whitestar, they can force evasive actions, break off attack runs, etc. I don't see anyway for the Whitestar to win this.

[Connor MacLeod]

Most people already handled this, but I want to get my licks in.

In a battle between a defiant and a whitestar the defiant wins easily. The defiant has greater firepower and can take more damgage than the whitestar making it the winner by default. However some rabid babylon 5
fans refuse to accept the obvious facts and continue to belive babylon 5
ships are stronger than star trek ships.

That depends on the firepower estiamtes you use for the Defiant. Some of the Trek firepower figures are truly pathetic.

That also depends on your B5 calcs.

Pulse phasers and quantom torpedoes are defiants main weopens. Quantom torpedoes of yields of 128 megatons while pulse phasers appear
to be at least as powerful as photon torpedo since they can destroy ships capable of surviving the 64 megaton blast of a photon torpedo. Considering the fact that the whitestar was destroyed by 2 megaton nuclear devices the defiants weopens will tear it apart easily.

Thank you for tossing in the Tech Manual upper limit figures for torpedoes. Now if we do it on something more reliable, like "Night Terrors" or "Insurrection" - or we go with the traditional "isoton" definition, the Defiant gets bitchslapped by the Flying Organic Plucked Chicken of Death. (In "A View From a Gallery" the White Star was described as looking like a "plucked chicken", hence the name.)

And as others have pointed out, it was the Minbari cruiser Drala Fi (black Star) done in by the 2 megaton nukes. and if you WATCHED the incident, you'd note the War Cruiser survived largely intact (there was some damage - fin blown off, some damage to the guns - but the main body section was largely unharmed by a point blank, 2- megaton detonation.)

The defiant has shields capable of withstanding hundreds megatons of energy. The 400 GW husnock particle beam fallacy does not hold as it was a shield draining weopen like a borg shield disruptor.

<snort> Hundreds of megatons? Let me hand you a hanky so you can wipe when you're done wanking, fanboy. The upper limit on shields is at best maybe 200,000 TJ (~48 megatons) for purely EM radiation - IE photorps. Against charged particle weapons its significantly less (thousands of TJ, max.)

Provide evidence that the "400 GW particle beam" was a shield drainer please, becauser this is the first I've ever heard of it.

Even if the whitestar uses highly unlikely tacticts of ramming her fighters into the defiants shields to bring them down it still loses. The structral integrity fields holding the defiants hull togather can withstand multiple 64 megaton torpedo blasts before failing. So it is clear that there is no way the whitestars kiloton level weopens can destroy the defiant.

I see you subscribe to the "Massive techno-masturbation as evidence" debating methodology - and are therefore too busy to do actual research. If we again go with the OTHER figures, such as Night TErrors and Insurrection, its quite probable that Minbari FIGHTERS (which have hundreds of GW to a few TW of firepower) could ass-rape the Defiant without ramming.

Provide proof that the Structural integrity fields provide protection against EM radiation (IE photorps), and that this extends to multiple detonations.

I also point you to trhe fact White Star firepower is in the upper limit of ~12,500 TW. I tend to give it somewhat higher than that, but it works. Of course, since you're too busy wanking to your "uber-defiant" fantasy, you no doubt neglected to research B5.

Much has been said on the whitestars organic armor which can supposedly learn to deal with damage more efficiently. However organic armor is no substitute for the whitestars lack of shields.

Get your head out of your ass and look at B5 Wars. They have shields, even if they aren't the same kind as the Defiant uses. And its not "organic armor" - the h ull is quite clearly non-organic, but uses some sort of forcefield based "Vorlon defense system" which has organic elements to it (the learning ability, etc.)

Though organic armor can adapt to reduce the amount of damage from enemy weopens the ship still takes damage. Shields on the other hand protect the ship completly untill the go down.

Ah, buit what does it matter if the shields are so sucky they can be dropped in the case of a GW-level particle beam (as we saw with the E-D?) Minbari fighters are capable of hundreds of GW to a few TW of firepower (as stated before) - Shadow Fighters would be at least comparable to this. And as we've seen repeatedly in the series (such as War without end) - the White Star can easily shrug of fighter-scale attacks with little to no damage.

See, maybe you should actually provide some "numbers" to back that statement up, rather than keeping your head up your ass and pretending
that you haven't been disproven.

Even after the shields fail organic armor is still inferior to metallic armor see the brainbugs page as to why.

Its not metal. Go re-read the first couple pages, dumbass. Mike and I already went over this.

Furthermore federation phasers are extemely effective against organic materials just see how hand phasers vaporize people. A single hit from the
defiants phasers would totaly disinegrate the whitestar.

Thank you for not bothering to read the debate in its entirety before shoving in to torture us with your stupidity. I pointed out already to Mike, the White Star has demonstrated a distinctly "non organic" sound and reaction to impacts (into the fire).

Prove that a single hit would disintegrate the White STar.

The stealth capability of the whitestar would be no use against the defiant.
Every type of stealth technlogy designed foil a specific type of sensors.

Proof?

The whitestars stealth system can defeat babylon 5 sensors. However since the defiant has subspace sensors it would not be effected since babylon 5 does not have subspace technology.

And what makes you think that the subspace sensors will detect the White Star if B5 has no subspace technology? Isn't possession of subspace tech required for subspace sensors to detect anything?

Furthermore the defiant has a cloaking device making totaly invisible to tha whitestar.

As I recall, cloaking devices can be detected through a variety of means that would not be beyond B5. For that matter, cloaking and decloaking is not an instantaneous event, which has in the past given most opponents enough time to pound on the cloaked attacker.

Even if the defiant does not employ the cloak it still might be invisble. In Futures end Voyger demonstrated how shields can be modulated to defeat EM sensors.
Since the whitestar uses EM sensors it would not be able to detect the defiant.

Wow, an actual reference! Now maybe you can prove that the White Star uses ONLY EM sensors? We know, for example, they use tachyonic communications - sensors would not be impossible.

Likewise we know they can detect gravitational drives (or at least the sources generating gravity) and possibly other kinds. Again, you fail to actually back your claim with proof.

Whitestars superior maneuverability would not be useful against the defiant. Photon torpedoes have ranges of 3.5 million kilometers compared only 3000 kilometers for the whitestar.

1.) prove the range.

2.) PRove that its an effective range.

3.) what are the velocity of these torpedoes? They can't travel from point A to B instantly.

4.) Torpedoes can be shot down

5.) Prove the Torpedoes can lock onto the White Star with the stealth system in place.

6.) Mike has said before that 3.5 million km would not be a special range for torpedoes - the fact they are a physical warhead that relies on a propulsion system to propel them (as well as a little thing called inertia) can give them an effectively limitless range. B ut if they're slow moving, they can take so long that they get shot down, or outrun, or evading.

The whitestar would be destroyed before it can close in for a dogfight. Furthermore the defiant can engage targets while moving faster than light using warp drive. So the whitestar won't be able hit the defiant or avoid incoming torpedoes.

White Star's don't have warp drives. How the hell can the defiant fight it at FTL? And Warp Strafing is a myth - more of your techno-wanking.

[Connor MacLeod]

Defiant wins, greater coverage, firepower, defense. Whitestar gets marks for accuracy and maneuverability- but lacks punch. If a 2 MT detonation does bad things to a Black Star, presumably similar to a White Star, then a few proximity torps should do it in.

I repeat for the umpteenth time, IT DEPENDS ON YOUR CALCS. The ST side has some truly pathetic calcs out there that would literally give the White Star ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater firepower (and defense).

And again with teh Black Star - the first nuke didn't do tremendous damage (it did SOME, but not massive amounts of damage) - suggesting it could survive at least several proximity detonations of a low-megaton warhead at a distance of several hundred meters. (B5 Wars infers it might take as many as 10-16 at the most to insure a definite kill on 1-2 war cruisers)

I would go as far as say a direct PPC hit should severely damage a Whitestar: It may not have the energy to take out the Whitestar through its energy defenses, but NDF must be considered.

Of course, Whiet Stars as I poointed out are not completely organic, and do appear to be at least partly metallic (or something similar ) - I suspect that phasers are going to be less effective than one might think.

[

Phasers are stated to be particle weapons, and for once I agree with the dialog- phaser particles are easier to explain than some mysterious energy that turns atoms to neutrenos, and they will reach the hull=bad things. If fragmentation energy is used in Peagasus (which assumes Feds are smart enough to tell the torps to bury into the center) you will get a few KT per torpedo. If you use cratering energy, you get a handful of MT per torp. QTorps are supposed to be better. Well, doesn't look good for the Whitestar. (By the way, quotes from the show are almost never reasonable, consistent, smart, educated, etc when dealing with firepower and energy) So if a QTorp is oh, 12 MT, with half lost in space, then the whitestar can expect nearly 6 MT in a direct hit-far more than necessary when dealing with BlackStars. A single PPC pulse should be somewhere around 50-100 KT, based on the high rate of fire obseved. Even if PPC's can't hit the Whitestar, they can force evasive actions, break off attack runs, etc. I don't see anyway for the Whitestar to win this.

I point out that one of the potenial upper limits for the White Star is around 12,500 TJ (~3 megatons) per second. And again I repeat that if we use the FAR LOWER calcs like Night Terrors, firepower on the Defiant side drops. Neglecting the truly pathetic accuracy Wong was discussing earlier.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Aw, fuck it. Just throw an ISD in there, and then we'll have a definitive winner

Definitely an overkill. Slave-1 can do the job just fine.

[seanrobertson]

I repeat for the umpteenth time, IT DEPENDS ON YOUR CALCS. The ST side has some truly pathetic calcs out there that would literally give the White Star ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater firepower (and defense).

I have to respectfully disagree here...you can definitely cook
up some figures that might Trek and Babylon 5 ships' firepower
look bad (Narn-Drazi bombardment of Centauri Prime, a
WS's attack on Mars, ST:FC), but the consistent set is what
we're really after.

That might sound like an oxymoron when dealing with Trek,
but I don't actually think portrayal of firepower is *that* inconsistent,
even including "The Die Is Cast."

If it was inconsistent, I wouldn't have been able to cite several
examples to support the hundred kT photorp (and commensurate
shield resistance thereto) idea.

However, I am taking what you're saying a bit out of context,
Adam...you're responding to someone who's citing the TM
figures (which I feel are up to 50-100x too high in the case of
quantum torpedoes). In that case, you are right.

Of course, Whiet Stars as I poointed out are not completely organic, and do appear to be at least partly metallic (or something similar ) - I suspect that phasers are going to be less effective than one might think.

I agree.

The idea that phasers are magical against organic components
isn't true; one needn't look any further than 8472 for proof of
that.

Against metal, phasers can be *somewhat* effective...depends
entirely on the metal. It appears that phasers daamage tritanium/duranium hulls at a rate roughly consistent with their
actual output (assuming phasers are now roughly up to one
terawatt or so). Maybe a little moreso. Hard to tell.

In any event, I don't see one regular phaser blast killing WS's
hull. Same story with pulsed phasers, most likely.

I point out that one of the potenial upper limits for the White Star is around 12,500 TJ (~3 megatons) per second. And again I repeat that if we use the FAR LOWER calcs like Night Terrors, firepower on the Defiant side drops. Neglecting the truly pathetic accuracy Wong was discussing earlier.

Well, IMO, "Night Terrors" is pretty much worthless. We know what
the ship's weapons can do from other episodes anyway.

I also don't fully agree that Defiant has terrible accuracy.
It's not going to be good enough to consistently nail WS, however,
unless proximity detonation photorps are used.

I can still see it going either way, even if I do slightly favor
Defiant for her offensive/defensive strength.

[SyntaxVorlon]

The mars excuse to underpower the WS is not valid, the Whitestar was keeping it's Jump Engines at full power and had to keep it's fire power nice and low so that the energy wouldn't feed back, there is air on mars, and superheating it would be a bad thing to a flying craft. It was pulling it's punches.
Also the ISA forces attacking Centarui Prime were only hitting military targets. And the whitestar was not attacking at that time so one cannot gleam information from that. Though one Whitestar and two heavy narn beams were enough to kill a Shadow ship, that could not defend itself due to Lyta Alexander.
And sean could you please only hit enter after you finish a paragraph, and not when you get to the end of the post box, the margins you set are making the pages longer than they need to be.

[seanrobertson]

Most people already handled this, but I want to get my licks in.

Thank you for tossing in the Tech Manual upper limit figures for torpedoes. Now if we do it on something more reliable, like "Night Terrors" or "Insurrection" - or we go with the traditional "isoton" definition, the Defiant gets bitchslapped by the Flying Organic Plucked Chicken of Death. (In "A View From a Gallery" the White Star was described as looking like a "plucked chicken", hence the name.)

In my judgment neither of those examples are reliable since they involve unknowns (and in the case of "Insurrection," dare I say, yes, metreon gas has "subspace properties" according to VGR. I hate it, but anything subspace seems damned magical in TNG+ Star Trek). Now, of course, in spite of the unknowns, "Night Terrors" implies that the photorp inventory is less powerful than a large chemical explosion, like, perhaps, a daisy cutter;
but this episode doesn't occur in a vacuum, no pun intended. How
it compares to episodes from which we can derive empirical conclusions
is highly suspect, though.

For example, how would torpedoes yielding gigajoules apiece, or no
more than ~750 GJ for the entire inventory (overestimate), do any damage to the asteroid in "Pegasus"? Riker might be inept, but he's fired
photon torpedoes before. To think he's off by over five orders
of magnitude stretches the incompetence dismissal to the extreme.

If we assume the asteroid itself was 75% hollow (probable overestimate; the entrance into the one chasm we saw barely gave enough clearance for the E-D to slip inside), it would have a volume slightly greater
than a 2690m wide, solid asteroid. To blow that apart, they'd need
19.5 megatons.

Even if all 250 torpedoes were used (perhaps greater than Riker's
expectation of "most of our photon torpedoes), that's still 78 kilotons/torpedo.

Needless to say, a photorp rated solely according to the criteria laid
out in "Night Terrors" could not equal this even if it magically gained
1,000x greater yield. The kT no. also matches up very well with torpedoes used against other asteroids, like in VGR's "Rise" and "Cost of Living."

You'd also have to think that a photorp would be capable of
leveling a city if the TOSite's beloved "General Order 24" was to
be at all feasible--so, again, kilotonnage. Probably not much more,
but it's easier to rationalize "Night Terrors" as treknobabble
than to suggest all of these asteroids were made of marshmellows
(as even ice wouldn't suffice), that the stars we've seen ships orbit
were very underpowered even when they keep vegetation green
and water from freezing on the Dyson S's interior, etc.

Another knock against the superiority of chemical explosions
over photorps (and what that must mean about the photorps
yield) is something else I've talked about a little in this thread:
the threat of destruction from proximity detonations. In "modern"
Trek this is mentioned at least twice when the firing ship is
unshielded, and it might be the case that the crew is overreacting.
Then again, they *should* know something of their own weapons'
effectiveness.

Let's say they're being a bit overprotective of the ship, but still
have a rough idea--within a couple orders of magnitude--what might
threaten them. Further, since we're talking about chemical explosions, a proximity blast from a < daisy cutter level torpedo could at least damage the ship.

In "Q Who?" those torpedoes exploded about 5 kilometers from the E-D; thus, with a frontal area of no more than ~60,000 m^2, a 5 GJ torpedo
would strike the ship with almost one megajoule total!
Even a 500 GJ torpedo would only deliver 95 MJ at that range.
That wouldn't even vaporize one adult male, and it's about
600 times less energy than you'd need to vaporize a single
cubic meter of iron. Hand phasers can do that (well, not the iron,
but the "vaporizing people" thing).

We know that a quarter kiloton device sitting on the NX-01's
hull blew out a nice chunk of her but certainly didn't result
in destruction (unfortunately, though I would've gotten Hoshi
and T'Pol off the ship first, so long as I could gag T'Pol to not
hear her bullshit. Oh, and Porthos. Gotta get Porthos). So
the ship was probably struck with about 500 GJ, itself. Surely
the E-D could withstand more.

At 5 kilometers, to nail the E-D with the same amount of
energy, we'd need a 600 kiloton torpedo. Even if spreads
of multiple torpedoes (standard of 3) were involved, obviously,
we've still got 200 kT photorps.

This is definitely not contraindicated by something like "Pegasus,"
or the shields' ability to field a terawatt or so of solar EM for
hours on end. (I'm told "Descent" involved a scene break before
we're told the shields only had minutes left, but that episode
might've involved the charged particle weakness, as Michael
has long contended.) It's about as high as I'm probably willing
to peg photorps these days.

Regardless, it's pretty conclusive IMO. I waver in my understanding
of Trek as consistent, since superficially it's definitely NOT. But with
a little work--reasonable work--the picture is relatively clear; i.e.,
Federation ships like Defiant should be on a rough par with
White Stars and bigger Federation capships should be a match
for Minbari Warcruisers. Each side probably holds advantages...torpedoes
would probably be the most powerful weapon fielded, whereas Minbari
beam weapons would be better overall than phasers. And the stealth
is potentially the entire debate, though the Federation ships do have
better defensive strength, which could afford them a little more time
to fight back and score hits.

And as others have pointed out, it was the Minbari cruiser Drala Fi (black Star) done in by the 2 megaton nukes. and if you WATCHED the incident, you'd note the War Cruiser survived largely intact (there was some damage - fin blown off, some damage to the guns - but the main body section was largely unharmed by a point blank, 2- megaton detonation.)

Yes. I don't necessarily subscribe to some people's understanding
that the event was a total fluke, nor do I really think Minbari armor
is "all that" (I see that Starfury ramming through a fin every time
I even think of the Minbari), but then again, that's not their primary
strength. Their firepower and stealth is.

<snort> Hundreds of megatons? Let me hand you a hanky so you can wipe when you're done wanking, fanboy. The upper limit on shields is at best maybe 200,000 TJ (~48 megatons) for purely EM radiation - IE photorps. Against charged particle weapons its significantly less (thousands of TJ, max.)

Probably, yes. I used one of my own upper-limits earlier when I
threw out a 120,000 TJ figure, but I didn't mean to. I meant to
use a no. more along the lines of 50-60,000 TJ, which I think is
a more realistic assessment of the shield strength.

I also point you to trhe fact White Star firepower is in the upper limit of ~12,500 TW. I tend to give it somewhat higher than that, but it works. Of course, since you're too busy wanking to your "uber-defiant" fantasy, you no doubt neglected to research B5.

I tend to stand by that upper-limit, though without something similar
for Defiant I'd like to use something a little more conservative.
I guess that the WS oughta be relatively close to Defiant's
firepower, however.

On everything else we're in pretty firm agreement. And please note
that these torpedo ranges are as much or more for the folks who
want to use the TM