Realistic wanked out swords/close range weapons in sci-fi.

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PeZook
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Post by PeZook »

Connor MacLeod wrote: Hm, I suppose not. Then again, it would still be of some use in getting the drop on someone (ambushing), ,though I suspect if you're trying to infiltrate or scout, you might still need to take someone out quick or silent. (just maybe not large numbers of people.)
If you encounter a large patrol, then you typically hide and wait it out, and a lone sentry will rarely cause much trouble even if you outright shoot him. In WWII, there was rarely a need to stab anybody, and operations were always planned in a way that taking out a sentry with absolute silence was never crucial to their success - for obvious reasons.

The most popular kind of "stealth" operation was actually carried out by infantry, all the time - it was the "intelligence gathering" patrol where a small squad went out to nab an enemy soldier. Again, rarely a need to stab anyone, and it was often a "smash and grab" style action,with grenades and batallion-level fire support. The key is always to confuse more than to stay silent.

Take note, though, that when the need did arise, it was absolutely crucial the takedown was done fast - not necessarily silent, but fast, so commandoes trained with their knives far more than grunts.

Once you start killing sentries, you only get a few minutes untill your surprise is ruined, anyway, no matter how silent you are. Unless you are fighting completely incompetent idiots, that is :)
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Post by Gunhead »

Silenced pistols work best if the weapon doesn't work the action after the round is fired. This eliminates the sound generated by the slide, which can be almost as revealing as the sound generated by the round itself.
I've fired subsonic 9mm rounds from a semiauto MP5 with a silencer attached, and the sound generated by the action was very audible even at a distance.

Revolvers are not easily made into silenced weapons because of a gap between the cylinder and the barrel. Notable exception would be the Nagant revolver that due to the ammunition and weapon design overcomes this problem. This makes the nagant one of the quietest pistols when equipped with a silencer.

Bolt actions are also easy to silence and can facilitate larger bullets and extended range.

Silenced weapons suck at penetrating. Subsonic ammo doesn't generate the velocities needed to penetrate body armor. And by body armor I mean anything from common stuff like pasgat and upwards. Using AP ammo might work, but even then I have my doubts.

Silencing a rifle also cuts into the effective range of the weapon. This is a bad thing if a firefight ensues and you need to get the fuck out of there.
With submachineguns and pistol the problem is not as great, but those weapons are out ranged by rifles anyway.

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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Ok, Connor, what you say seems to make sense. Melee weapons are useful in the context of a quiet ambush, but not so much on the open field of battle.

That I can agree with.
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Post by Thunderfire »

Drooling Iguana wrote:The same is true for submarines right now, but submarine crews don't carry swords.
Even minor damage means trouble for a space vessel. Getting a replacement isn't easy and unlike submarines a space station needs friend boarders from time to time. Starting a gun battle on the ISS isn't a good idea if you ask me.
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Thunderfire wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:The same is true for submarines right now, but submarine crews don't carry swords.
Even minor damage means trouble for a space vessel. Getting a replacement isn't easy and unlike submarines a space station needs friend boarders from time to time. Starting a gun battle on the ISS isn't a good idea if you ask me.
The ISS hull can withstand micrometeorite impacts, can it not? Which should be handily more dangerous than mere bullets...
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Post by Zixinus »

Okay, what the fuck is your problem?
Yes. Are you really stupid enough to believe all suppressors will magically mask all sounds of a bullet like they do in the movies? Do you even know how suppressors work?
No for the first, and only in faint concept for the second (pressure the supersonic air generated by the bullet leaving the barrel by supersonic speed to subsonic level). However, are you seriously telling me that its not worth using it at all? I mean, trying to take out a person quietly is risky procedure in the first place, and it is usually enough if the rest of of the unlucky guy's comrades aren't alerted.
Also, there are not only silencers, but special ammunition that makes very little noise. And if you are that goddamn nitpicky, let me point out towards the wonderful weapon called the "crossbow" with "poisoned bolts". And I also recall that there are very nasty poisons out there.
Provide proof to back up your assertion. Now. I want to know how weapons that can involve explosive vaporization as part of their effects woudl be "silent".
The quote I used was from here: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg172-e.htm
Red herring. Where the fuck did I say anything about charging? I'm talking CLOSE QUARTERS combat. Try to fucking pay attention.
In order to attack a foe with a ranged weapon, with a melee you have to get close. And unless you can magically behind the foe, or make him forget that you are even there, you have to charge. Close quarters combat or not. Also, does the term "close quarters" automatically mean "hand-to-hand"?
Oh, so I suppose you jumping to the conclusion that I meant something like a katana in combat (your own words, no less) was purely accidental?
Yes it was. First word that came to my head. If I mention butterfly knifes, would that be better?
Seriously, did you even read my response before making your idiotic knee-jerk reply?
Yes I have. And I pointed out that I myself described two weapons that are not super-sized swords or massive weapons, but small and concealable. I also keep pointing out that not only military use should be considered for these weapons.
The marines do. We can ask one of the marines on this board if you like. I have a feeling they wouldn't consider a knife or the ability to fight in hand to hand as "uesless" as you seem to think it is
I recall that the Marines are also equivalent of the elite (NOT special forces, elite) forces, and are trained in a wide variety of areas. I knife is not necessarily a combat weapon. I admit that it isn't unlikely that they might need it, but I wager that almost every soldier has a higher body count from his gun then his knife.
The "time spent" on either is irrelevant to that little fact. Though since you chose to bring it up, maybe you'd care to provide some further proof to back up THOSE claims too?
I need to back up the idea that modern militaries are most likely to train their soldiers with ranged combat weapons, that they are more likely to use and depend on? I mean, which one would you consider more redundant from a typical soldier's equipment, a gun or a knife? Having both is ideal, yes, but which one would you take?
What the fuck are you implying anyway? Yes, I know that soldiers are somewhat trained in melee combat, but isn't their the dominant weapon their guns?
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I'll make a sword out of a black hole, with solidified neutronium smart metals and carbonic acid nanotubulars for a handle. If I stab a planet with it, the planet explodes.

And it's hard sci-fi. The sword will be long, and strong, and hard.

In order to attack a foe with a ranged weapon, with a melee you have to get close. And unless you can magically behind the foe, or make him forget that you are even there, you have to charge. Close quarters combat or not. Also, does the term "close quarters" automatically mean "hand-to-hand"?
Battlefields are confusing. Sometimes you're navigating this bombed out urban wasteland, in an alleyway, and poof, the enemy comes out of some ruined house right next to you. He tries to draw his heavy machinegun, you take out your knife and stick it in his throat, no one makes a sound and none of his friends know you're there.
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I'll make a sword out of a black hole, with solidified neutronium smart metals and carbonic acid nanotubulars for a handle. If I stab a planet with it, the planet explodes.

And it's hard sci-fi. The sword will be long, and strong, and hard.
Why not fire your sword from a cannon?
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

A cannon in the shape, form and likeness of a flintlock (or a blunderbluss)? Sure, why not.
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Post by kinnison »

With regard to lasers:

An IR laser won't cause the problem of absorption caused by ionisation - which also makes the beam visible.

However, there is another problem. Light is an alternating electric and magnetic field 90 deg out of phase and at right angles, correct? This is a potential problem because at beam density high enough to make a useful weapon, the electric field component is intense enough to cause breakdown and ionisation of the air in its path, thus absorbing the beam energy, making it inaccurate because of various refraction effects, and of course the beam is visible - I've seen photos of a very high power IR laser beam, made visible by the line of sparks.
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
In order to attack a foe with a ranged weapon, with a melee you have to get close. And unless you can magically behind the foe, or make him forget that you are even there, you have to charge. Close quarters combat or not. Also, does the term "close quarters" automatically mean "hand-to-hand"?
Battlefields are confusing. Sometimes you're navigating this bombed out urban wasteland, in an alleyway, and poof, the enemy comes out of some ruined house right next to you. He tries to draw his heavy machinegun, you take out your knife and stick it in his throat, no one makes a sound and none of his friends know you're there.
Congratulations. In a contrived situation where you obviously have no support and are fleeing the enemy, you can find a use for a knife.

Replace the dead guy's heavy machine gun with an assault rifle or carbine , have him actually holding it (instead of lugging it behind him like a retard), and watch what happens when he bumps into you. :roll:
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Congratulations. In a contrived situation where you obviously have no support and are fleeing the enemy, you can find a use for a knife.
Why are you just making shit up? They could just as easily be advancing to take an objective; battlefields, especially urban battlefields, can be confused. There won't necessarily be any neat battle lines drawn up when you're invading a city; pockets of resistence could be scattered everywhere, and moving essentially indpendantly.
Replace the dead guy's heavy machine gun with an assault rifle or carbine , have him actually holding it (instead of lugging it behind him like a retard), and watch what happens when he bumps into you. :roll:
Oh yeah, he'll automatically win, because long arms are always the best weapon for any combat situation, regardless of range or the surrounding environment. Because enemies will never, ever approach you from a position which will make it difficult for you to bring your eighty centimetre long carbine to bear on someone who is two steps away from you.
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Post by Stark »

Really, though, in a modern battle (with no superwank armour) an entrenching tool would do the same thing without needing to be a special 'melee weapon'.

Heavy and long weapons are harder to handle than smaller, lighter ones, but at anything beyond extreme close range you'd have to be lucky to knock the rising barrel out of the way and get in close. If there's one thing 40k got right, it's that close combat is a messy, dangerous, random sort of thing to get into. :)
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Congratulations. In a contrived situation where you obviously have no support and are fleeing the enemy, you can find a use for a knife.
Why are you just making shit up? They could just as easily be advancing to take an objective; battlefields, especially urban battlefields, can be confused. There won't necessarily be any neat battle lines drawn up when you're invading a city; pockets of resistence could be scattered everywhere, and moving essentially indpendantly.
Ok, and the guy just *happens* to come out a door when you're next to it and is completely unaware that you're even there until he runs into you.
Because enemies will never, ever approach you from a position which will make it difficult for you to bring your eighty centimetre long carbine to bear on someone who is two steps away from you.
Whoops--that's me getting my terminology screwed up. By carbine, I meant one of those shorter-barreled weapons, like a sub machine gun or something. Sorry.
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

That, and if the guy's holding the gun right to begin with, he won't have to swing it around, just raise it, or turn his body while backing away.
Stark wrote:Really, though, in a modern battle (with no superwank armour) an entrenching tool would do the same thing without needing to be a special 'melee weapon'.
Indeed. The butt of a rifle will do nicely as well.

Alternatively, you could use a bayonet, but that's a little superfluous for fairly obvious reasons.
Heavy and long weapons are harder to handle than smaller, lighter ones, but at anything beyond extreme close range you'd have to be lucky to knock the rising barrel out of the way and get in close. If there's one thing 40k got right, it's that close combat is a messy, dangerous, random sort of thing to get into. :)
Well, yeah, but they fail at defining realistic close combat in numerous other ways. Like pistols... A guy with a plasma pistol might as well be armed with a power weapon at the very least, for example--but he merely gets an extra attack with whatever mediocre weapon he carries already. Even short, easily maneuverable small arms like pulse carbines suddenly cease to function effectively at ranges under 2 metres or so. A Guardsman will find his bayonet to be just as useful as the lasgun itself when he charges in for "the glory of the Imperium," in spite of his weapon's ability to vapourize football-sized chunks of human flesh with semi-automatic fire. :roll:
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Post by Stark »

Whoa whoa whoa I'm not saying 40k is good or even interesting, simply that the system reflects the chancey nature of melee combat on a battlefield. Sure, you're probably better off closing for melee because running will get you shot down like a dog, but if you're a moment to slow, you're toast.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Ok, and the guy just *happens* to come out a door when you're next to it and is completely unaware that you're even there until he runs into you.
It doesn't necessarily have to be quite so random, and really it would only occur in very close quarters like the interior of a house or a denseley packed jungle, which is probably thesort of idea that Shroomy wanted to get across.
Whoops--that's me getting my terminology screwed up. By carbine, I meant one of those shorter-barreled weapons, like a sub machine gun or something. Sorry.
SMGs, being much smaller (even if they aren't tiny MP7s) than rifles or even carbines does mean they're better for CQB, much as shorter shotguns are good for CQB. Of course, one has to work out a balance depending ont he situation: SMGs and shotties might be fine for police assaults, but in an urban combat situation where ranges aren't always very short, but sometimes are, it probably isn't such a good idea. I suppose that's why the M4 generally has a collapsible stock. :)
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Well, yeah, but they fail at defining realistic close combat in numerous other ways. Like pistols... A guy with a plasma pistol might as well be armed with a power weapon at the very least, for example--but he merely gets an extra attack with whatever mediocre weapon he carries already.


That's game mechanics for game balance. I would point out that Cypher fights with his pistols in close combat, and they do count as power weapons (master crafted, in fact).

Honestly, Gamesworkshop has admitted that the rules and scale are at best abstractions of the universe itself.
Even short, easily maneuverable small arms like pulse carbines suddenly cease to function effectively at ranges under 2 metres or so. A Guardsman will find his bayonet to be just as useful as the lasgun itself when he charges in for "the glory of the Imperium," in spite of his weapon's ability to vapourize football-sized chunks of human flesh with semi-automatic fire. :roll:
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Post by Ford Prefect »

EDIT: Err, wow. That last sentence is awesome.
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Well... not to rain on your parade, but I think you meant "The Imperial war machine is greased with the blood of its soldiers."

Good one, though. :D
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Ok, and the guy just *happens* to come out a door when you're next to it and is completely unaware that you're even there until he runs into you.
Unless he has motherfucking x-ray vision, yeah.

Shit happens in the battlefield.

In the Black Hawk Down film, the guy comes out of a door and trips. A couple of Somalis just a few feet away then end up missing him and shooting each other. Sure, you can say it's just from a movie, but such a situation is plausible. I don't know if the scene was taken from the book though, since the Black Hawk Down novel is actually Mark Bowden interviewing veterans from the Battle of Mogadishu.

The BHD novel also describes a group of Somali militamen (high on War Drugs) attacking the Rangers while riding a cow. The rangers shoot the Somali militiamen dead, but the cow is unhurt. Then a Blackhawk flies by and does a strafing run and the cow explodes.

Why am I mentioning exploding cows and helicopter miniguns? Because in the battlefield, shit happens. If a cow can explode, then some soldier can probably stick a pig-sticker in another guy too.
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Shit happens in the battlefield.
Wow, I feel enlightened. :roll:

Yes, shit happens. Some shit just doesn't happen often enough to be considered worth the time and effort required to prepare for it.
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Post by PeZook »

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Shit happens in the battlefield.
Wow, I feel enlightened. :roll:

Yes, shit happens. Some shit just doesn't happen often enough to be considered worth the time and effort required to prepare for it.
What the fuck is your position, anyway? That it isn't worth it to do the two-day hand-to-hand course any modern military provides?

Face it: bayonett fighting happened, happens and will continue to happen in warfare. And even a small amount of training and a good HTH weapon will give you an edge over an opponent who is completely untrained, so militaries all over the world do it. The situation you showed isn't as contrived as you may want.

As comparatively early as WWII, bayonett fighting could actually be decisive in an assault. So it definitely pays.
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Post by Teleros »

Yes, shit happens. Some shit just doesn't happen often enough to be spend stupid amounts of money for it.
Now that I'd agree with, given we're talking about hand to hand fighting. A bayonet is cheap, and I imagine a vibro-blade version would be relatively cheap as well, depending on how far into the future you want to go. But I'd hardly expect the price tag of your melee weapon to come close to that of your lasgun (or whatever) - which it's more likely to do if it's some fancy thing.
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Post by Aaron »

You guys do know that we still fix bayonets when assaulting an enemy position like a trench or fortification right? And bayonet drills are something run through with regular frequency.
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