A defense of Female Space Marines

[Gullible Jones]

In other news, there's only one guy who ever drank the Water of Life and lived to tell the tale, and that's because fate was on his side. Oh yeah, and he's the only one who can remember all the stuff his male ancestors did, because women can't understand their male ancestors or something.

And at 11:00: why Lenses are simply not compatible with human women, even though no such incompatibility exists in any sex of any known alien species.

(Arbitrary divisions by sex are not uncommon in SF. This one is pretty much the least obnoxious one I've seen so far, in that it actually makes a bit of sense and isn't blatantly sexist; the one in Dune stretches a reader's suspension of disbelief, and the one in the Lensmen series is frankly insulting.)

[Stark]

I already made it clear that I understand the fluff states, indirectly, that women can't be made into Marines because female+geneseed=failure. My point is basically that if the Imperium could make female Marines they would, they can't, so they don't.

Um, what? You're the guy who just said there should be gender equality, even though it doesn't work! Are you saying they should redesign their entire augmentation technology to get one that works on women too, for the tiny net benefit it'd bring? It's not like number of candidates is a problem that's going to be solved by letting women in.

[Ford Prefect]

I can't be entirely sure Stark, but I think Adrian is trying to agree with us. Maybe.

[Gullible Jones]

I think what he's saying is that, although it is clearly part of the back story, the requirement that the recruit be male seems somewhat random and arbitrary.

[Stark]

I can't be entirely sure Stark, but I think Adrian is trying to agree with us. Maybe.

I just don't know anymore.

I think what he's saying is that, although it is clearly part of the back story, the requirement that the recruit be male seems somewhat random and arbitrary.

They found a technology that works and don't want to change it. Oh noes, call the PC police.

Or at least the waaahmbulance.

[Ford Prefect]

I think what he's saying is that, although it is clearly part of the back story, the requirement that the recruit be male seems somewhat random and arbitrary.

No, I'm pretty sure he's saying that the reason why there are no female Space Marines is that it is impossible; if it was possible, there would actually be female Space Marines, given that the imperium does not generally discriminate based on gender, and if a woman was hard enough, the Astartes would get her in on the act.

[Gullible Jones]

No no no... I'm not referring to the decision of the Imperium in WH40K (that makes perfect sense in-universe), but the decision of the people at Games Workshop who created the back story. It *seemed* to me that he was questioning the reason for putting that stuff in the back story (which I had earlier ascribed to marketing); I may have lost what he was saying at some point though.

[Adrian Laguna]

No no no... I'm not referring to the decision of the Imperium in WH40K (that makes perfect sense in-universe), but the decision of the people at Games Workshop who created the back story. It *seemed* to me that he was questioning the reason for putting that stuff in the back story (which I had earlier ascribed to marketing); I may have lost what he was saying at some point though.

Yes! In-universe the no female Space Marine thing makes sense. It's not that the Imperium won't induct women into the Astartes, it's that they can't. What I'm questioning is why that part of fluff was necessary in the first place. More than that, I'm questioning it in light of the fact that the Imperium of Man is otherwise treats all their people more or less the same. My point is that it would have been nice if the decision makers at Games Workshop hadn't forced the Imperium to make that one exception. However it's hardly a big complaint.

[Ford Prefect]

If you're wondering why the people at Games Workshop said 'no female Space Marines', it's probably got something to do with not wanting to have such a dehumanising set of proceedures performed on women. Space Marines are no longer men after they finished, they're something else, and it's not necessarily positive.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Not everyone wants female Marines so they can look at hot chicks in power armour, some just want gender equality.

Tell that to everyone who's ever sculpted female space marines. They need to lay off the humongous triple-E bosoms and tiny belly-baring waistlines in that case.

Don't forget the Guardswomen, EEE-cups and asses so big that when they sit down they get taller.

[NecronLord]

All the rest have primary worlds they draw from. Their homeworlds or founding planets mostly. For example the Raven Guard draw mostly from their homeworld, IIRC. Which is a heavily mutated industrial world.

Khaivar and Deliverance are not heavily mutated (if anything, I'd expect them to be less so than other worlds at the same level of industrialisation). The Raven Guard turn white/black due to the gene seed, not because of their recruitment stock.

As for breasts; the fact that a female Cadian looks pretty much like a male one, with maybe a different head (humm... If I ran forge world...) is the reason for the EEE cups and all that. Much like the guns are out of scale, the breasts have to be out of scale to be noticable.

[Teleros]

And at 11:00: why Lenses are simply not compatible with human women, even though no such incompatibility exists in any sex of any known alien species.

I believe this was also done for other species too. They were made to be incompatible with women, probably so that the Arisians wouldn't have to intervene constantly to stop lots of Lensman families sprouting up early. After all, Clarissa Kinnison née MacDougal got one, and I didn't get the impression that she was that much of a freak .

If you're wondering why the people at Games Workshop said 'no female Space Marines', it's probably got something to do with not wanting to have such a dehumanising set of proceedures performed on women.

I wonder if they even thought that much about it to be honest:
"Hmm, how to keep the image of big badass guys in power armour?"
"Oh, make it for men only."

[Sidewinder]

Not everyone wants female Marines so they can look at hot chicks in power armour, some just want gender equality.

Tell that to everyone who's ever sculpted female space marines. They need to lay off the humongous triple-E bosoms and tiny belly-baring waistlines in that case.

Don't forget the Guardswomen, EEE-cups and asses so big that when they sit down they get taller.

Do you have a link to a gallery where I can see these Guardswomen for myself? (Just want to know whether or not you're exaggerating what lonely men do to "sex up" their WH40K armies.)

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Believe me, we're not exaggerating in the least.

[SAMAS]

But the question, again, is "why?" Why do you think a Marine without Y chromosomes is so special?

You can make the same argument about female guardsmen, inquisitors, pilots, drivers, magii, sanctioned psykers, etc. Not everyone wants female Marines so they can look at hot chicks in power armour, some just want gender equality.

Except that there are Female Guardsmen, Inquisitors, pilots, drivers, magii, psykers, etc, because the Imperium is capable of making/hiring/inducting them. The Imperium is incapable of making female Space Marines. It's not gender inequality, it's chemical/genetic incongruity.

You don't see anyone clamoring for male Sisters of Battle, do you?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Brothers of Battle!

[SAMAS]

Apparently the already gender equal Imperium (while most characters are male, it is very clear that gender is no real obstacle to getting to the highest echelons of power), the one which regularly practices genocide, racism and hatred actually needs to be political correct.

Apparently.

Nonononono. In the Imperium, they're too worried about Green and Grey to care about Black and White.

[Cykeisme]

It's important to note that this discussion has two levels: in-universe, and out-of-universe.

In-universe, we're all aware that the procedure for Space Marine creation doesn't accept women, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. The geneseed from each Primarch is only compatible with a tiny fraction of the percentage of the populace; this was described as being like organ donor compatibility, but matches are even rarer than that.
Despite stringent screening rituals, there are still many neophytes who pass the screening procedures but still end up crippled, insane or dead due to tissue rejection.
Never mind that women can't be Space Marines, even most men can't.

Out-of-universe, they're often described as "warrior monks". This is self-explanatory, so elaboration is not necessary even if it were possible. However, I will say that there is already a separate force comprised of warrior nuns; you'd think this would satisfy people.

[Junghalli]

However, I will say that there is already a separate force comprised of warrior nuns; you'd think this would satisfy people.

Yeah, but let's face it, Sisters of Battle just don't have anywhere near the badass factor of Space Marines.

[SAMAS]

Speak for yourself. SoB are their own class of badass.

[18-Till-I-Die]

All the rest have primary worlds they draw from. Their homeworlds or founding planets mostly. For example the Raven Guard draw mostly from their homeworld, IIRC. Which is a heavily mutated industrial world.

Khaivar and Deliverance are not heavily mutated (if anything, I'd expect them to be less so than other worlds at the same level of industrialisation). The Raven Guard turn white/black due to the gene seed, not because of their recruitment stock.

I'm fairly sure they're the ones i'm thinking of...

Corrax was found on a moon where the colonists were enslaved by the people on the planet, and he leads a rebellion and frees them, then the Emperor shows up and declares him awesome and he becomes a Primarch and creates the Raven Guard.

That the one you talking about? Cause i distinctly recall it mentioning that the planet's level of mutation was only allowed because of their industrial output.

Of course this may have been old fluff thats retconed by now, so it may be we're both right. I'll see if i can find the exact quote later.

[Black Admiral]

The only mention of mutation I can recall in relation to the Raven Guard is those mutations resulting from Corax's efforts to restore the Legion to effective combat strength after Istvaan V using flash-cloning; efforts which were .... less than successful.

[NecronLord]

You might be right on that.

Of course, galaxy wide mutation rates have skyrocketed since then due to psyker-ness. And conditions causing it may have changed under the post-Corax regime.

[NecronLord]

The only mention of mutation I can recall in relation to the Raven Guard is those mutations resulting from Corax's efforts to restore the Legion to effective combat strength after Istvaan V using flash-cloning; efforts which were .... less than successful.

Well. Hell, it produced a few combat-viable soldiers. It was just that the spoilage rate was so titanic.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ok here is the quote itself...

The planet Kiavahr is populated by billions of workers and craftsmen, with huge fabrication plants and hive cities covering its surface. The planets atmosphere is highly toxic from centuries of pollution and incidences of mutation are far higher than normal. This stretches the tolerance of the Adeptus Ministorium, but such is the quality and quantity of material that comes from the two worlds that more leeway is granted than would normally be the case.

...highlighted the important bits.

This is a page where it is mentioned. http://redelf.h1.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_rg.html

It also goes over the previously mentioned "Were-ravens" created by Corrax being a dick with his geneseed. Let this be a lesson, if the only plan you can come up with requires days of fevered effort to convince yourself it's a good idea...dont do it.