Shivans vs. Empire

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-30 01:14pm

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:I've personally not seen any calcs for Shivan weapons, sensors or shields (and no I am not baiting) and I would be very interested in that kind of reading material if anyone has it to hand...

Thanks.

The highest calculations (and I'm talking wet dream calculations here) put the best of the weapons some where in the 10-20 gigaton range.

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-01-30 01:21pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:
I hate to tear you away from your monkey spanking session but your the one wrong here.
In practice, one could prove that group Y cannot do action X successfully. While not a perfect from a deductive standpoint, if you have reasonable evidence that Y has been trying to the best of its ability to accomplish X, and fails, it is not inductively illogical to assume that Y cannot succeed when trying action X. The questions presented is fair, if slightly inaccurate due to the imposition of language.

In this case, we have demonstrated abilities that the Empire can and has detected small craft at long ranges - ranges exceeding by far the size of a solar system. Since Shivan vessels do not differ in composition wildly from Imperial/SW vessels, we can logically conclude they could be detected. Imperial Star Destroyer sensor technology seems to be less effective at super-close range, and this is logically not a problem since its primary function is as a heavy capital ship rather than a fighter-killer. If someone can provide good evidence that Imperial sensor technology is blind or has some specific flaw related to Shivan jamming technology, one could reasonably conlude the Shivans have a sensor advantage.

While some of my fellows here are less than polite, they were baited and insulted by a trollish poster with a chip on his shoulder.

Finally, I have played Freespace II. The Shivans [and terrans too in some ways] are arguably the least threatening space fleet I have ever seen since the Kilrathi.

1) They have "maximum velocity" in space.

2) They have very... stupid tacticas and strtategy, with no clear goals other than to kill.

3) Their capital ships are less than impressive compared to Imperial vessels. Their largest heavy ships actually are bigger than a Star Destroyer, but wastes most of the space in comparison. A full volley rom a Star Destroyer easily equals a full fleet of Shivan heavy capital ships. Moreover they seem to need to be at ludicrously close ranges to fire effectively (within a few km), although this may be due to heavy jamming.

4) I personally slew over two thousand enemy fighters, not to mention the capital ships I helped take out. My character, on average, died once for every 250 enemy. That is *not* an acceptable kill ratio. Moreover the speeds and firepower of the craft I was using do not compare to the Imperial TIE. And in flight combat, speed and firepower are almost everything.

Also, fighter are far more effective against Shivan capital ships, barring a lucky shot such as the A-Wing that, against all odds, took out the Executor. (I've always wondered if the Force didn't give a wee little bit of help there.)

Playing the game in Easy-Medium mode doesn't show Shivan strength.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-30 01:35pm

Sektor31 wrote:Playing the game in Easy-Medium mode doesn't show Shivan strength.

Even in hard mode you can rack up lots of easy kills. The Shivans are flat out pathetic.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-30 02:19pm

DocMoriartty wrote:No wonder so many people avoid this site like th plague. With assholes like you posting 24-7 its amazing anyone comes here.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There's more "research" than just watching the fucking films and reading the novels, you stupid cunt.

Just because I'm blunt doesn't make me an asshole or my posts of any less value.

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-01-30 03:03pm

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:I've personally not seen any calcs for Shivan weapons, sensors or shields (and no I am not baiting) and I would be very interested in that kind of reading material if anyone has it to hand...

Thanks.

Ok, FS1 tech room says Harbinger bombs are 5GT or 5000MT. They do 3200 damage (from ships.tbl), meaning 1 damage point is 1.6MT. A BFRed is rated at 2100 damage points. Beams do this damage around every 1/6 of a second, meaning the BFRed does 12,600 per second or 20.2GT. A Sathanas has 4 BFReds, giving it a 80.8GT per second volley with all four guns.
An Accalamator's medium guns are 200GT apiece. An ISD II has 64 Heavy Turbolasers, which are even bigger and more powerful. The Sathanas has 1,000,000 hitpoints, or 1600GT, which means an ISD will kill it in 8 hits. The Shivans have revealed 80 Sathanases; the Empire has at least 24,000 ISDs.
Notice that just about every effort has been made on inflate Freespace - the Harbinger is used instead of the fighter missile yields, which are rated in the kilotons and do a couple hundred damage; the beam cycle is considered 1/6 instead of 1/5.5 of a second; the fact that only half of the Harbinger will hit the ship is disregarded, effectively doubling firepower....

Still think the Shivans have a chance?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-30 03:53pm

Are those calcs done with figuring in the BFRed's 7-second duration? That would make it like 140 GT or something right??

(I'm not saying that Shivans beat Empire, just trying to get something clarified)

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-01-30 04:00pm

Shinova wrote:Are those calcs done with figuring in the BFRed's 7-second duration? That would make it like 140 GT or something right??

(I'm not saying that Shivans beat Empire, just trying to get something clarified)

Nope, it's 80.8GT per second from all four guns.

Ignorant Boy wrote:A Sathanas has 4 BFReds, giving it a 80.8GT per second volley with all four guns.

Besides, the BFRed has a 25 second duration and a 10 second cooldown.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-01-30 05:49pm

I hate to tear you away from your monkey spanking session but your the one wrong here.

It is impossible to prove a negative. Completely and utterly impossible. Anyone with even the most minute skill in debating will tell you that.

Look at this simple item as an example.

"Prove to me you don't beat your wife."

Wrong carpet muncher. You made a ridiculous claim, a claim that you didnt bother to back up sufficiently. The only evidence you used was a quote, taken out of context, that could be interpreted in multiple ways. You have too support your opinion, even though you cant prove it, with evidence. Or at the very least refutation of what we have already said.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-01-30 05:58pm

Tell me, do freespace ships have energy emissions? If they do they can be tracked. Howabout a reactor with a power core? Or weapons? Or we could simply use visual(sensors that pick up light) and target your ships that way. Or we could track your gravitic fields. Or we could target your ships manualy, they are moving slow enough.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-30 06:19pm

Ignorant_Boy wrote:
Shinova wrote:Are those calcs done with figuring in the BFRed's 7-second duration? That would make it like 140 GT or something right??

(I'm not saying that Shivans beat Empire, just trying to get something clarified)
Nope, it's 80.8GT per second from all four guns.

Ignorant Boy wrote:A Sathanas has 4 BFReds, giving it a 80.8GT per second volley with all four guns.
Besides, the BFRed has a 25 second duration and a 10 second cooldown.

80.8GT for all four guns * 7-second duration = 560~GT?

btw: BFRed has a SEVEN second duration, not 25, and 10 second cooldown (about the cooldown: 10 seconds is what's listed but in-game it's often 7~ seconds for some reason)

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-01-30 06:57pm

Also, your argument that Imp sensors cant track Shivan vessels is based off the assumption that they are inferior to Terran sensors, an assumption that you DO have to prove in order for your argument to work.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-30 07:26pm

And DocMoriartty, considering who you are and your behavior, you have no fucking stance to insult me from, you God damn fucking son of a bitch.

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-01-30 08:04pm

Shinova wrote: 80.8GT for all four guns * 7-second duration = 560~GT?

btw: BFRed has a SEVEN second duration, not 25, and 10 second cooldown (about the cooldown: 10 seconds is what's listed but in-game it's often 7~ seconds for some reason)

Oops, my bad; was looking at the wrong "lifetime" in the weapons.tbl.
Yeah, I guess it's 560GT for all four guns hitting for all 7 seconds. Remember though that these calcs assume that the Harbinger does 5GT on the hull instead of 2.5 (because of the spherical blast). Using the given kilotons for the Phoenix V or other FS1 missiles or the megajoule Banshee will result in lower firepower.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-31 12:25am

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:The Shivans were almost impossible to track with Terran sensors, I doubt Empire sensors (which fucking suck) would be able to see them at all.

"They went into a high-speed power-dive, perpendicular to the long axis of the Imperial vessel; vertical drops were hard to track."
- Return Of The Jedi: Chapter Nine
Can't shoot something you can't see.

Hard to track, not to detect. I read it as that it moves it too fast for the radar computer or operator to follow.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-31 12:30am

I would like to add that in Freespace2, sensors could not detect a warship covered by an asteroid until Command finally detects it (barely) with their own sensors.

I'm talking about the Iceni, by the way.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-31 12:31am

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:1.) The SD in "The Empire Strikes Back" couldn't see the Millenium Falcon LATCHED ONTO it

Geez, maybe the Falcon was smart enough not to latch onto a radar dome.

2.) In "A New Hope" sensors on a SD didn't seem to notice the escape pod containing droids which escaped from inside the vessel itself.

Actually, they detected the pod and they said they didn't detect any lifeforms in it. Droids are machinery. The pod is full of machinery either way.

Only when they were sure the plans weren't in the ship, Vader told them to investigate the pod. (maybe you didn't see the part where the Empire was hunting for the droids... which was like, ALL THE FUCKING REST OF THE MOVIE?!)

3.) The Empire has no FTL sensors.

Sure, now provide evidence that the rebels at Hoth didn't detect the Imperial ships in the outskirts of the system immediately as they hyped in... you know, since we already have evidence that says they did.

4.) It's 3am and my own sensors aren't working properly, if I recall more I'll let you know.

Sensors aren't working? I recommend a full system diagnostics, there must be something wrong with the CPU. Maybe a virus, like brain diarrhea.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-31 12:33am

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:I just said, my bad and I take full responsibility... As I said I am very tired and when I was scrolling up I didn't see my post.

Yes, your fault. And since you ARE taking responsibility (aren't you?) I don't understand why you complain that people think you're a dumbass.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-31 12:34am

Looks like this Embracer guy has disappeared or run off.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-31 12:43am

DocMoriartty wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: Your entire argument is based off a burden of proof fallacy. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Empire CANT track shivan vessels. And considering that I have destroyed everything else you have, try to do that.
I hate to tear you away from your monkey spanking session but your the one wrong here.

It is impossible to prove a negative. Completely and utterly impossible. Anyone with even the most minute skill in debating will tell you that.

Actually no. Being stealthy is a capability of the Shivans, that was easily overcome after the first encounter with them. You have to prove that they are completely undetectable to superior sensors, or it is a no-limits fallacy.

So, kindly shut up you misogynist prick.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-31 12:45am

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:
Smiling Bandit wrote:While some of my fellows here are less than polite, they were baited and insulted by a trollish poster with a chip on his shoulder.
Finally someone with a brain, my plan has surfaced a whole *twelve hours* after being implimented... Getting up "rabid Warsie's" asses proves to be very entertaining for me when facing boredom .

As for my points, you think I didn't *know* most of them were idiotic? Come on I had one of you scrolling through the novelisation of Return Of The Jedi for fuck's sake *sigh*

Buy a clue, bored people can piss you off.

This time though, and seriously, I'm saying that I think the Shivans stand a decent chance against The Empire but I'd have to actually play the campains again and run some calcs.

Ah, so you admit that you were trolling to piss us off? I say you should be banned then.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-31 12:49am

How stupid is this guy? He says he's trying to piss us off, and it's blatantly obvious. We tell him that we aren't going to feed his stupid trolling and that we don't have to provide any evidence for his retarded points, then he says that we were hunting for our copy of the movie to refute him?

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-01-31 07:34am

[quotye]I would have to disagree with this one. Weapon range and C3 support are far more important.[/quote]

Good point. But in space range is a function of targeting capability, and supprt is matter of having other ships around. TIE pilots seem to depend on each other to survive, and are flying extemely "edgy" ships: TIEs run on the thin edge of high speed performance and pack a good punch against enemy fighters. Since TIEs don't carry missiles (something of a weakness, but I suppose IMP-Command felt they were too expensive and not effective enough.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-01-31 08:07am

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:As for my points, you think I didn't *know* most of them were idiotic? Come on I had one of you scrolling through the novelisation of Return Of The Jedi for fuck's sake *sigh*

Buy a clue, bored people can piss you off.

That's tremendously impressive, dear boy. I feel sure you've made a name for yourself now. Warsies are quaking at the mere thought of confronting you directly.

Maybe it was a successful troll, but in that case it's fairly obvious why: namely that your attempt to annoy by posting stupid, poorly thought out crap was indistinguishable from your usual debating style. Or maybe it's just really brilliant satire, and I'm missing something here. I'm almost afraid to ask.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2003-01-31 12:04pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Ah, so you admit that you were trolling to piss us off? I say you should be banned then.

Yup, definitely... And go ahead, though you'd have to ban every user of the second-largest broadband service in the United Kingdom to do it, dynamic IP's can be a bitch

.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-31 12:06pm

Actually you want to have Mike take up the Challenge?

Or do you not grasp how some BANS you from a board(or did you really think Scoot was using a 56K modem?)