Connor MacLeod wrote:Sounds like a depowering of the Necrons, given how implied powerful the C'tan could be. Then again, maybe they still exist in some form (see below)
The C'tan almost certainly still exist. They're just no longer the only personalities in the army.
Interesting idea. I imagine that might also apply to that one White Dwarf artticle where the Imperium destrtoyed a tomb world -IIRC there was a supposed 'C'Tan" there.
That'd be last stand of the firebrands. That's a much harder one to claim is a false C'tan, given that it had supposedly been fed local stars and so forth.
This might also lead to other possibilities. Perhaps the C'tan as they existed (disregarding possible mythological implications) have all long since died out, and what we are left with are just very advanced/powerful/high end versions of what the Necrontyr themeselves are (sophisticated robots/mind imprints/space undead, whatever.) Or perhaps they're just very powerful./evolved Necron Lords impersonating them (or possessed by elements of them - thanks to GRaham McNeill we know the Nightbringer could "taint" others with his influence..)
Perhaps. But that would require some rather extraordinary proof. Especially given that other pieces of background from the necron perspective (various campaign intros) have been explicit in the idea of the star gods still existing.
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The Big I wrote:Why does the immaterium onlu have "baddies" shouldnt there also be good chaos gods???
The Immaterium generally reflects 'extremes' and so do the Chaos Gods. An artist who suddenly gets a huge spike of creativity and furiously pours emotions into a painting or concern piece for example is giving power to Slaanesh as much as someone screwing like mad.
The Big I wrote:Why does the immaterium onlu have "baddies" shouldnt there also be good chaos gods???
The warp has "good" gods depending on your side and how you define good. The GEoM is arguably a good warp god (the Imperium certainly thinks so), so are the Eldar gods and Gork and Mork. Chaos, on the other hand, is by its nature excess for its own sake. It's the compressed hate and lust and despair of trillions of sentient beings. From the point of view of the average chaos cultist, contact with such entities changes your whole view so that they are all that matters, not good or evil. They entail a purity of freedom, purpose and experience, and to their followers, that must feel very good indeed. There were more warp gods, but a lot of them were absorbed or "eaten" by the larger ones.
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The Big I wrote:Why does the immaterium onlu have "baddies" shouldnt there also be good chaos gods???
Arguably, they aren't all baddies. Tzeentch, the god of conspiracies and mutations, is also the god of hope and of change for the future. Khorne, the god of war and bloodshed, is also the god of martial honor and chivalry. Slaanesh, the god of hedonistic excess, is also the god of love, creativity, and, IIRC, ambition as well. Not all the Chaos gods are entirely evil, but I'm not sure just why Nurgle is anything but harmful. They reflect the emotions of the world, and while in 40K those will be mostly ill feelings, they also reflect the better emotions of the galaxy.
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darthbob88 wrote:I'm not sure just why Nurgle is anything but harmful.
Endurance, unconditional love, humor, joy.
The function of an emotion-spawned warp creature's existence is to propagate the emotions that empower it, and they can no more rein themselves in in this regard than can we order our bodies not to consume the oxygen in our bloodstreams. Any emotion-spawned warp creature is bound to be what we would call evil, because its aims would be to warp the entire universe to feed its nature, and any such universe would be utterly inhospitable to what we would call peaceful human life.
darthbob88 wrote:Arguably, they aren't all baddies.
I've heard this argument before, and although the idea certainly makes a modicum of sense, I have yet to hear of a Khorn worshipper doing chivalrous deeds in the name of the Blood God. All you ever see them do in the fiction (at least insofar as I've seen) is running at people waving chain-axes whilst screaming incoherently about skull thrones. Same for Tzeench, Slaanesh and Nurgle - although theoretically I'm sure there's something to be said for them embodying good traits as well, I've yet to read about a Nurgle cultist finding a cure for some horrid disease, rather than mutating into some gruesome monstrosity Blob-style.
The bottom line seems to be that Chaos might theoretically be able to do good, in reality it only kills people in a variety of interesting but almost invariably spectacularly gruesome ways. (Either that or we're getting an enormously slanted perspective on the dealings of the Ruinous Powers.)
The Ruinous Powers are evil, not because the emotions they embody are intrinsically evil, but because they embody them totally without regard to morality, restraint, or limits. They hook worshipers with the more restrained versions of the emotions (hedonistic parties, warrior societies, scholarly fraternities, etcetera), but to truly serve them one has to serve passion without limits and that means destruction of anything that imposes limits. Like civilization.
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darthbob88 wrote:Arguably, they aren't all baddies.
I've heard this argument before, and although the idea certainly makes a modicum of sense, I have yet to hear of a Khorn worshipper doing chivalrous deeds in the name of the Blood God.
Codex Daemons also describes the Chaos gods as being more evil than simply extreme. For example:
Codex Daemons wrote:
With raw anger and violence, the legions of Khorne cut a swathe through enemy territory...
...
The dominion of Khorne is a monument to fury and bloodshed. It is built upon the foundations of murder and conflict, and is home to every facet of battle and conquest. This blood-soaked realm echoes constantly with Khorne's bellows and the clash of weapons, the cracking of whips and the clarion calls of unnumerable brass war-horns.
Khorne is the Blood Good, Lord of War, Taker of Skulls. He is wrath incarnate, filled with a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy, to conquer and kill.
...
Under Khorne's urgings, his endless tide of soldiers are whipped into a blood frenzy, and will fall upon each other in their desire to spill blood if no other foe can be found.
For it is war - constant, mindless bloodletting and destruction - that is all Khorne cares for. He cares not who is victorious and who is slain, just that they fight until they can fight no more. All that Khorne exists for, all that his entire being is bent towards, is the flow of blood from fresh wounds and the taking of skulls.
Not much about martial honour and the like there. And although the other Chaos gods aren't necessarily as one-dimensional as Khorne is (Nurgle being perhaps the most "humane" of them judging by the descriptions), they're a lot darker and more evil than they have been in the past.
Yes, but we Eldar still get the trickster god aspect. So does that mean that those followers of Raven, the Monkey King, Tai Malice, & Coyote are really empowering Cegorah?
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
I think the difference between the Eldar & Chaos gods is that the latter are more universal, and less dependent upon a particular species (although the Chaos gods do depend a lot on humans from the Codex: Daemons it seems). Presumably Cegorach can't benefit from / chooses not to benefit from human tricksters and the like.
Swindle1984 wrote:Ok, I'm finally gonna jump into the 40k pool and see how the water is.
What's a good novel for a total n00b to start with? I'd prefer something that doesn't involve Chaos, the Eldar, or the Tyrannid for the most part.
....orks?
I'd say that most novels will involve at least one of them in some fashion. There's been a few threads already discussing good starting places among the books. The Horus Heresy ones arent bad at all if you want to understand the background to the current state of things, and some people swear by either the Cain books or the Ravenor ones as great starting places.
"Prodesse Non Nocere." "It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president." "I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..." "All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism. BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
Cain, while great, is bad for noob. Too many in jokes and references will sail right over your head.
Eisenhorn is better than Ravenor and as a bonus, comes chronologically before Ravenor.
The Last Chancers are a good place to start (Imperial Guard version of the Dirty Dozen).
The Brothers of the Snake is a beginner friendly Marine novel.
Gaunts' Ghosts are pretty good place to start as well.
Execution Hour if you like starship on starship action.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
The Big I wrote:Just a point what I "quoted" above is is purely fictious on my part.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Many thanks! These darned computers always screw me up. I calculated my first death-toll using a hand-cranked adding machine (we actually calculated the average mortality in each city block individually). Ah, those were the days.
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Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
NecronLord wrote:I think he's saying his last post was a lie.
Yep thats correct not used to being able to edit my own posts.
You.. you lied! You're a liar!
We don't like your kind around here!
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