Your thoughts on the Gundam series

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Double Fake, while I haven't actually read it, is the sort of thing I kind of had in mind.

[VF5SS]

Is that pump action beam shotgun? I think it is. It's things like this that make me remember just how vast the amount of Gundam media actually is. :)

The one I'm really curious about is Gundam's own Macross style story starring the Gundam GT-Four. It's a sweet looking design.

[Ford Prefect]

The one I'm really curious about is Gundam's own Macross style story starring the Gundam GT-Four. It's a sweet looking design.

That is a cool design, pretty unusual as Gundams go, actually. Mind you, I can't find any quick information about MS Generation, but everyone knows I love Macross, so ...

[Commander 598]

Maybe it gets better or something, but I just can't get past how stupid the ZAFT helmets look*.
.

The later half of the series is better than the first half.

Hahahaha.

The latter half of the series is all about mysteriously powerful racial purists, drug addicts, plot holes, and a faction composed of three ships headed by a pacifist pop-star and beamspamhax while pwning two massive military forces while nobody important on their side dies.

At least the first half had UC nostalgia going for it.

[Ford Prefect]

He may be referring to the later twenty five episodes of SEED, compared to the entirety of Destiny, which is supposedly a different series.

[Commander 598]

I was referring to the latter twenty five episodes of SEED, compared to basically everything.

The only things vaguely definable as good about Destiny are the first few episodes and the semi-colony drop.

[Ford Prefect]

I was referring to the latter twenty five episodes of SEED, compared to basically everything.

My bad. I didn't realise that the stuff you listed, such as Lacus Clyne's political group, came into being during SEED. Certainly I didn't think we got the Strike Freedom nonsense until GSD.

[Ryushikaze]

Unless Bandai and Sunrise have since done some retconning, the version* of MS origins in UC I'm familiar with specifies that mobile suits were developed by Zeon scientists specifically as anti-ship space combat weapons, and only said they were construction equipment as a cover story following leaks and during demonstrations. The only MS I'm aware of that originated as construction equipment is the Ball, which was sort of a wartime improvisation, long after the EFSF started Project V (besides IIRC, some sort of "Gunball" proof of concept thing).

I think it was only in Wing where mobile suits as a whole directly originated from utility machines.

*I'm easily about 4-5 years out of the loop when it comes to the wider Gundam canon and continuity.

You're right that only the Ball was construction equipment turned tool of war directly ( to my knowledge, anyways. though Hathaway did pretty good with unmodified construction equipment), but Mobile Suits are an outgrowth of the technologies and machines originally used to construct the colonies, though there were several phases of development, taking some thirty years between the initial thought of 'hey, we're could make a pretty spiffy warmachine if we could do XYZ with this' and the first truly bipedal Mobile Suit (At least as best as I recall. It's been years since I originally read the bit about the development of Mobile Suit technology).

He may be referring to the later twenty five episodes of SEED, compared to the entirety of Destiny, which is supposedly a different series.

Nope, that's the last, ten I want to say, episodes of Seed. I should also add that all the casualties the good guys do take happen in a ten minute span in the last episode.
Though the last 25 eps of Destiny are just as bad.

[VF5SS]

One of the interesting things at the now defunct Bandai museum was a timeline of MS development that actually had pictures from the Japanese edition of Starship Troopers with Miyatke's version of the powered suit. Mobile Suits are in some ways supposed to be ultimated evolution of a powered spacesuit.

[Commander 598]

I was referring to the latter twenty five episodes of SEED, compared to basically everything.

My bad. I didn't realise that the stuff you listed, such as Lacus Clyne's political group, came into being during SEED. Certainly I didn't think we got the Strike Freedom nonsense until GSD.

Freedom was pretty bad by itself, to say nothing of it's use of METEOR before the series was over.

Nope, that's the last, ten I want to say, episodes of Seed. I should also add that all the casualties the good guys do take happen in a ten minute span in the last episode.

I'd say it was at least as far back as realizing that Kira was in fact alive after that...incident, and somehow at PLANT in a very short period of time because "The Priest" apparently has a seemingly experimentally high powered craft capable of surface to lunar orbit travel at his remote island orphanage.

[qyote]One of the interesting things at the now defunct Bandai museum was a timeline of MS development that actually had pictures from the Japanese edition of Starship Troopers with Miyatke's version of the powered suit. Mobile Suits are in some ways supposed to be ultimated evolution of a powered spacesuit.[/quote]

They...kind of are. For all the MS vs Tank debates, I don't think they're ever actually used as or perform like tanks. They always seem to function more like giant powered armor.

[Ford Prefect]

Freedom was pretty bad by itself, to say nothing of it's use of METEOR before the series was over.

It's got some technicolour attacks, that's for sure.

One of the interesting things at the now defunct Bandai museum was a timeline of MS development that actually had pictures from the Japanese edition of Starship Troopers with Miyatke's version of the powered suit. Mobile Suits are in some ways supposed to be ultimated evolution of a powered spacesuit.

They...kind of are. For all the MS vs Tank debates, I don't think they're ever actually used as or perform like tanks. They always seem to function more like giant powered armor.

To be honest, they don't operate much like giant powered armour, which is generally supposed act in the same role as infantry. Mobile Suits and other mecha don't have any reasonably familiar military roles - they are literally just for blowing up other mecha.

[Ryushikaze]

They're actually much like old WWII fighters and bombers in mission profile, small targets capabe of brigning some nifty firepower to ships and installations. Or it is in space, anyways. On earth, yes, their role is mostly mecha v mecha.

[Saxtonite]

Hahahaha.

The latter half of the series is all about mysteriously powerful racial purists,

hmm, the Blue Cosmos and ZAFT extremists were explained in sufficient detail though in the earlier half of the series as being people who believed Coordinators were a threat to the Earth's Existence, and Radical Coordinators who were mad at how the Earth Oppressed them.

drug addicts, plot holes,

where were the Plot Holes?

and a faction composed of three ships headed by a pacifist pop-star and beamspamhax while pwning two massive military forces while nobody important on their side dies.

Erm, they didn't pwn the two forces, they simply tried to keep them from destroying either side's civilian population, the METEORs of Justice and Freedom destroyed the nukes and helped to take down the 4 Agennamon-class carriers which carried the nukes. Both forces were too busy annihilating each other to notice or care about the Three Ships Alliance, which AFAIK tried to avoid getting too involved in the fighting and mainly went through the weak points in ZAFT's defense after dealing with the Agennamons.

My bad. I didn't realise that the stuff you listed, such as Lacus Clyne's political group, came into being during SEED. Certainly I didn't think we got the Strike Freedom nonsense until GSD.

The three ships alliance became allied with Terminal and grew in the later parts of Gundam Seed Destiny.

I'd say it was at least as far back as realizing that Kira was in fact alive after that...incident, and somehow at PLANT in a very short period of time because "The Priest" apparently has a seemingly experimentally high powered craft capable of surface to lunar orbit travel at his remote island orphanage.

Malchio was living close to the Orb Union which has a mass-driver-and he is a mediator between the Earth Alliance and PLANT so how is it odd?

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

I'd say it was at least as far back as realizing that Kira was in fact alive after that...incident, and somehow at PLANT in a very short period of time because "The Priest" apparently has a seemingly experimentally high powered craft capable of surface to lunar orbit travel at his remote island orphanage.

Malchio was living close to the Orb Union which has a mass-driver-and he is a mediator between the Earth Alliance and PLANT so how is it odd?

In order to get the full story behind Kira being brought alive to Father Malchio, you'd have to read the Astray manga. It's a particularly bad case of All There in the Manual; lots of people watched SEED, but relatively few actually picked up Astray.

[Commander 598]

Malchio was living close to the Orb Union which has a mass-driver-and he is a mediator between the Earth Alliance and PLANT so how is it odd?

Because they tend not to let unconscious and notably wounded people board standard flights, much less take trips to the moon requiring impressive amounts of Gs?

To be honest, they don't operate much like giant powered armour, which is generally supposed act in the same role as infantry. Mobile Suits and other mecha don't have any reasonably familiar military roles - they are literally just for blowing up other mecha.

So, I totally imagined all those mecha operating in small teams, taking cover, hurling grenades, and having at least one person kitted out with a squad support weapon? At least that's how I'd even vaguely class them as a form of infantry giant or not.

They're actually much like old WWII fighters and bombers in mission profile, small targets capabe of brigning some nifty firepower to ships and installations. Or it is in space, anyways.

I'd argue that it'd be more accurate to compare them to some kind of space gunship what with the heavy firepower and seemingly decent armor they bring and the early OYW counting of ship kills over anything else.

In universe fighter craft were quite lacking with 20mm MGs and a small assortment of small missiles in comparison to a Zaku that first went into combat carrying a 120mm recoilless autocannon, a 280mm bazooka, substantially greater armor, and not inferior maneuverability.

[Ryushikaze]

I'm not denying that in universe they beat the pants off of fighter craft (which really were superfluous aside from the core fighters, and had been all but phased out by Zeta), just saying their role, at least early on, was like that of fighters and bombers in WWII. Fast, relatively small targets capable of dropping reasonably heavy firepower onto distant enemies, or operating beyond the scopes of the capital ships. It's not a perfect analogue by any means,and specifically did not try and cover their terrestrial usage.

[Ford Prefect]

So, I totally imagined all those mecha operating in small teams, taking cover, hurling grenades, and having at least one person kitted out with a squad support weapon? At least that's how I'd even vaguely class them as a form of infantry giant or not.

Dude, the average Mobile Suit is eighteen meteres tall and can weigh anywhere between ten and a hundred and thirty tons. Pretty much anything they can take cover behind, a tank can as well. A Mobile Suit can not occupy ground any more successfully than a tank can. A Mobile Suit is not appropriate to use on patrol missions, because when they walk, the ground shakes. They're just a seriously weird armoured unit which is cool because at the end of the day, it can kick you in the face.

[VF5SS]

I believe Mobile Suits tend to follow the idea put forth by Heinlein's powered suit. Their size was always a conceit to the original toy sponsor, Clover, who wanted them even bigger. However even with their size, I think they can fulfill the idea of being a highly mobile unit that delivers heavy ordinance with high precision. Oddly enough, 0083 really got the concept behind MS battles and 08th MS team really fucked it up by trying to copy Votoms (specifically the Kummen arc) but not really accounting for the huge difference in scale. It's like trying to turn the Gunbuster into a Solid Snake robot.

[DPDarkPrimus]

They were originally meant to be used in orbital battles, to transition from space combat to combat inside the colonies, so if you think of them as more than just a replacement for a tank...

[Ford Prefect]

However even with their size, I think they can fulfill the idea of being a highly mobile unit that delivers heavy ordinance with high precision.

I actually like that, now that I think about. It fits with my preference for everything to be ... fast.

Oddly enough, 0083 really got the concept behind MS battles and 08th MS team really fucked it up by trying to copy Votoms (specifically the Kummen arc) but not really accounting for the huge difference in scale. It's like trying to turn the Gunbuster into a Solid Snake robot.

That is unusual. Isn't Stardust Memory supposed to be terrible, going by an earlier comment you made?

[VF5SS]

Well yeah. Tomino was borrowing a lot from Starship Troopers. This one passage is pretty much what I think Tomino was going for, "It isn't a tank-but a single M.I. private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted..." and also being difficult to take out from the air. Although that doesn't work quite as well with MS being ten times the height of M.I, but then again an MS can shoot a plane pretty well. Especially if it has beam weapons. The original Gundam was a real monster when it came down to thrashing anything that wasn't a Mobile Suit.

[VF5SS]

That is unusual. Isn't Stardust Memory supposed to be terrible, going by an earlier comment you made?

Stardust Memory is terrible, but they MS combat scenes are fairly good. Stardust Memory takes the idea of Gundam-jacking to the ultimate extreme of stupidity where the new Gundam that was just armed with a ungodly powerful nuclear warhead was taken by a guy who just walked up to it, opened the cockpit, and turned it on. And that was just the first episode. Actually now that I think about it, maybe I just really liked the mock battle between the Powered GM and the Zakus. The rest of it probably doesn't stack up very well.

[Commander 598]

So, I totally imagined all those mecha operating in small teams, taking cover, hurling grenades, and having at least one person kitted out with a squad support weapon? At least that's how I'd even vaguely class them as a form of infantry giant or not.

Dude, the average Mobile Suit is eighteen meteres tall and can weigh anywhere between ten and a hundred and thirty tons. Pretty much anything they can take cover behind, a tank can as well. A Mobile Suit can not occupy ground any more successfully than a tank can. A Mobile Suit is not appropriate to use on patrol missions, because when they walk, the ground shakes. They're just a seriously weird armoured unit which is cool because at the end of the day, it can kick you in the face.

NO WAI! Also, can imagine that they might be vaguely useful for the fact that their combat radius is limited only by how prone to breakdown it is.

They were originally meant to be used in orbital battles, to transition from space combat to combat inside the colonies, so if you think of them as more than just a replacement for a tank...

The only ground battles in the novel are inside colonies. There was concern about Core Fighters being very useful in colonies since a giant enclosed cylinder with varying levels of gravity isn't all that conducive to fighters. We don't really know, they were getting turned into shrapnel by Zakus stomping around on the ground before they could ever do anything.

That is unusual. Isn't Stardust Memory supposed to be terrible, going by an earlier comment you made?

The protagonist pilot and his girlfriend are the primary reason why people might list it as bad. You watch it for giant robot action, nothing else.

[Ford Prefect]

Well yeah. Tomino was borrowing a lot from Starship Troopers. This one passage is pretty much what I think Tomino was going for, "It isn't a tank-but a single M.I. private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted..." and also being difficult to take out from the air. Although that doesn't work quite as well with MS being ten times the height of M.I, but then again an MS can shoot a plane pretty well. Especially if it has beam weapons.

You know, the more I think about, the weirder it is for Mobile Suit Gundam to have basically 'invented' the Real Robot genre. Sure, The 08th MS Team did the sand in joints problem before Gasaraki, and they're not exactly treated like robot heroes, but then again, they are enormous. I think Mobile Suits are among the largest 'real' robots around. The only one I can think of with similarily large mecha is Armored Core

In any case, being a Real Robot series is more about attitude compared to your actual plausibility

The original Gundam was a real monster when it came down to thrashing anything that wasn't a Mobile Suit.

The original is the best.

[VF5SS]

You know, the more I think about, the weirder it is for Mobile Suit Gundam to have basically 'invented' the Real Robot genre. Sure, The 08th MS Team did the sand in joints problem before Gasaraki, and they're not exactly treated like robot heroes, but then again, they are enormous. I think Mobile Suits are among the largest 'real' robots around. The only one I can think of with similarily large mecha is Armored Core

Heavy Metals from L-Gaim are mostly in the 18-22 meter range. Then again, they're like the kid gloves versions of what Mamoru Nagano would eventually do with robots around the same size in Five Star Stories with their trillions of horsepower and super buster weaponry. Also the Metal Armors from Dragonar are the same size. Then again, those are both Sunrise shows and one of them had Tomino as a director. Sometimes the merchandise is really important to the size of the robot. I've heard of sketches for Southern Cross having rough calculations for how big the robot will be in various model scales (1/100, 1/144, 1/48, etc) if they made the robot a certain size in the show. Compared to some later shows, Real Robots ran the gamut of sizes. SPTs from Layzner are in the 9-10 meter range. Valkyries from Macross get a pass for being airplanes as well as robots and with the exception of the Koenig Monster, aren't that huge. Combat Armors from Dougram were also in the 9-10 meter range. Combat in Dougram is pretty interesting. Here's a clip. There's a lot of hopping and heavy punching.

In any case, being a Real Robot series is more about attitude compared to your actual plausibility

The same can be said of most sci-fi. I definitely like Japan's idea of a real robot over the closest western counterpart which is Battletech. Battletech's attempts at "realism" are just plain bad.