SW ground forces vs WH40k ground forces

[PainRack]

What's really funny are the fossil fuel powered starfighters

Wasn't there a short blurb about steam powered forceshields?:D

So does the guard. The latest IG novel featuring the Cadians had significant comm and sensor jamming. They have battlefield technologies dedicated to it (blind grenades and missiles, which create a smokescreen that can somehow block sensors as well as visibility). Hell even the orks have been known to do jamming, if I remember some of the novels I've read correctly.

The Imperials however one up them due to their routine interception and dissemination of such information to troops on the field. The battle of Sluis Van however saw Wedge and Han "leak" information to trick the spacetrooper.

The problems is..... the Imps appear to be utter dickwards about using their sensor superiority. Granted, this is due to the author bias regarding Rebel forces, but Imperial sensors capable of detecting and controlling weapons in a settlement, tracking of droids or even sensor probes which can differentiate between species would shut down most Rebel stories.

Who were they talking to though? Doors might not be manually operated.. they could be automated and he was just talking to the computer.

It took time for the blast doors to be closed and their requests for it to be opened was ignored until the controls were locked.

And Endor was notable for the mixed military and command structure: you had Army, Navy, and Storm troopers there and no clear lines of command beyond the Emperor. Inter-service rivalry is a well known fact in the Empire, along with all the other problems (corruption, nepotism, etc.)

The ground units are excusable. The space battle on the other hand........ Paelleon usurpation of the navy is inexcusable, even as the existence of Death Squadron, the Emperor/Grand Admiral on the Death Star and the sector navy may had split command into three.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hell even the orks have been known to do jamming, if I remember some of the novels I've read correctly.

Let me guess: an ork with a radio yelling "WAAAGH!!!" loud enough to destroy every receiver in the area...

Nope. Actual jamming. Black Admiral reminded me that the novel in question was Brothers of the Snake, but IIRC similar happened in other novels (the second space wolf novel I think too)

[Connor MacLeod]

Wasn't there a short blurb about steam powered forceshields?:D

not that I can recall offhand, but that wouldn't neccesarily be a problem. Shields are not like weapons or engines, you dont neccesarily need alot of power to create or maintain them. (if energy has to be put into something, work has to be done somehow. Does a wall require energy to maintain it?)

And really steam power isn't so much the problem (IIRC our nuclear reactors rely on the steam as well don't they?) it's that they tend to be fossil fuel powered (coal powered Gargants, for one lol.) And yet the Orks get around this somehow.

The Imperials however one up them due to their routine interception and dissemination of such information to troops on the field. The battle of Sluis Van however saw Wedge and Han "leak" information to trick the spacetrooper.

Er, the Imperium doesn't intercept/disseminate information. I'm pretty sure I remember in some cases (the Ghosts novels and Cain if nothing else) of the Guard and Astartes practicing signals intel and EW stuff. Hell in the Fire Warrior novelization an space Marine was able to hack into a Tau comnet.

The problems is..... the Imps appear to be utter dickwards about using their sensor superiority. Granted, this is due to the author bias regarding Rebel forces, but Imperial sensors capable of detecting and controlling weapons in a settlement, tracking of droids or even sensor probes which can differentiate between species would shut down most Rebel stories.

The Empire is a dickwad about efficiency in alot of ways. Palpatine set it up that way. I mean think aobut all the black projects hidden in the Death Star 2 project (EG IG88) which was ALSO hidden inside a more mundane funding issue. They're worse than the US Militry Industrial complex in that manner. And there are ALOt of capabilities they utterly fail to use. Sometimes including basic tactics.

It took time for the blast doors to be closed and their requests for it to be opened was ignored until the controls were locked.

I don't quite get it. Are you saying there are people on the DS whose job is nothing else than to figure out and open and shut doors manually? There'd have to be what - millions? billions of doors? Why the hell wouldn't they automate it?

The ground units are excusable. The space battle on the other hand........ Paelleon usurpation of the navy is inexcusable, even as the existence of Death Squadron, the Emperor/Grand Admiral on the Death Star and the sector navy may had split command into three.

As I recall they had Death Squadron there and the local sector group (or at least thats the logic I've heard) so some argument over chain of command makes sense. the Navy is just as politicized as any other segment of the Navy, and its got a fair number of holdovers from the Republic Era (As I recall the WOTC RPG covered this with a specific term but I dont remember it.. basically the "old naval families" and old guard resisted the more pro-Palpatine/Imperial elements nad it created friction.)

Really Endor was a military clusterfuck on so many levels nowadays you can basically say that it was just cuz Palpy wanted it that way - the moron.

[Connor MacLeod]

Anyways if you wnat to discuss it lets start with a group fairly fresh in my mind. Say, the Tyranids.

Big question is: how big a threat? Single system/planet, a group of systems (eg a sector),
or a large scale threat? Does the SW side get any advanced warning (EG have planets been
consumed, etc.)

Some sorts of limits have to be put on it. System level you'd have to limit resources (what about resupply,
reinforcements, etc?) but it might give the best results as for a "tactical level" engagement without
seeming too artificial.

Sector level is a bit more complicated but balances tactical and strategic, I think.

Galactic is more for "stragetic" but would be the most complicated and the most speculative.

As a Tyranid enemy? I'd suggest a single hive fleet. billions of Tyranids and thousands (mililons?) of ships is
good for anything up to a Sector level. If its on an individual planet scale. Failing that maybe a splinter
fleet for a a local attack

A possible subset there is looking at Genestealer cults, since they're a bit differnt from the Tyranids
but a related issue.

[Simon_Jester]

Hell even the orks have been known to do jamming, if I remember some of the novels I've read correctly.

Let me guess: an ork with a radio yelling "WAAAGH!!!" loud enough to destroy every receiver in the area...

Nope. Actual jamming. Black Admiral reminded me that the novel in question was Brothers of the Snake, but IIRC similar happened in other novels (the second space wolf novel I think too)

With sufficient WAAAGH! in the area, it's entirely conceivable that an ork yelling into a radio loud enough to disrupt enemy communications so that all they hear is yelling orks would be actual jamming, or duplicate the effect.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Erm. You do realise that signal processing is sophisticated enough to pick out weak signals of particular frequencies? This is basic modulation/demodulation technique.

The signals in question that have to be jammed have to be a similar enough frequency. On the other hand, if one has a precise enough oscillator, some of this "jamming" might be overcome.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, it should be a trivial Fourier transform to subtract out the noise generated by a guy yelling on some random radio frequency. In a universe where the laws of electromagnetism play no favorites, it is. In 40k, though, the laws of physics do play favorites, so all bets are off.

The Warhammer 40k orks' entire schtick is that they can take a piece of technology that by all rights and sanity shouldn't work, and make it work by believing that it will work. They can actually build giant mecha out of cast iron, steam power, and one warboss's dreams, for example. They can paint their vehicles red to make them go faster. And it works; the difference in speed is measurable.

Compared to making a truck faster by dousing it in red paint, being able to jam other people's radios just by yelling into your own transmitter at the top of your lungs is easy.

[NecronLord]

In any case, orks use actual jamming machines, just like they use actual rocketry.

[Darksider]

In any case, orks use actual jamming machines, just like they use actual rocketry.

I thought the orks idea of guided munitions was a sticking a grot in a flying bomb and then laughing their asses off while they fly it into the enemy.

[Connor MacLeod]

In any case, orks use actual jamming machines, just like they use actual rocketry.

I thought the orks idea of guided munitions was a sticking a grot in a flying bomb and then laughing their asses off while they fly it into the enemy.

They do, but you have to admit its a pretty jammer-proof way of delivering your payload.

[Sea Skimmer]

It wouldn’t be if someone had the sense to use laser blinders against them, something already used to bring down several Argentinean aircraft in the Falklands War.

[Connor MacLeod]

Good point. Although Starwras could probably do one better and just shoot the guidance system now that I think of it

[Sea Skimmer]

That they could though the advantage of a laser blinder would basically be that it can be effective at long range (up to 10km at least) in a lightweight handheld package even today. So some Stormtroopers standing on the edge of the hanger deck or looking out portholes could keep busy blinding the enemy while waiting for boarders to fight. Since IIRC Stormtroopers don’t have actual viewports but display screens inside the helmet they’d be less vulnerable to blinding in return, as presumably they could switch to wavelengths not being affected. Within limits anyway. At least the eyeballs won't boil if they stare too long.

Realistically any kind of pilot or anyone who could see outside on a spaceship directly would need really serious flash protection gear like PLZT goggles as is used by strategic bomber pilots, but you just never see this in Sci Fi. Not just because of nuclear explosions either but also I’d suspect that if you had anything like the epic reactor explosions that seem to plague spacecraft you’d probably get a huge flash from that too. Plus coming close to stars and other radiation sources.

[Sarevok]

Indeed. The game Repunlic Commando gives you the view from a stormtrooper / clonetrooper helmet. They dont have any actual transparent visors. Instead there is a day / night vision capable camera system that also cleans itself when blocked by dirt.

[PainRack]

Er, the Imperium doesn't intercept/disseminate information. I'm pretty sure I remember in some cases (the Ghosts novels and Cain if nothing else) of the Guard and Astartes practicing signals intel and EW stuff. Hell in the Fire Warrior novelization an space Marine was able to hack into a Tau comnet.

I'm not implying that the Imperium doesn't practise such tactics. I'm stating that the Empire has superiority in this field due to their more rapid interception and dissemination of battlefield intel.

I don't quite get it. Are you saying there are people on the DS whose job is nothing else than to figure out and open and shut doors manually? There'd have to be what - millions? billions of doors? Why the hell wouldn't they automate it?

More that there are checkpoints and other security measures maintained by a security detail. It could be droid operated, but it isn't automated.
And that in this scenario, stormtroopers had lateral communications and command authority to them.

[Serafina]

Frankly, opening doors is not that impressive of a feat - it's hardly surprising that a stormtrooper could order it. Especially as it was an emergency situation, where the men in the field are always the most important (there is a saying for this which i can not recall right now).

[PainRack]

Frankly, opening doors is not that impressive of a feat - it's hardly surprising that a stormtrooper could order it. Especially as it was an emergency situation, where the men in the field are always the most important (there is a saying for this which i can not recall right now).

You haven't worked in a military bureaucracy, have you?

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm not implying that the Imperium doesn't practise such tactics. I'm stating that the Empire has superiority in this field due to their more rapid interception and dissemination of battlefield intel.

Have you done a comparison of the two? What do you base that off of?

More that there are checkpoints and other security measures maintained by a security detail. It could be droid operated, but it isn't automated.

I'd count droid control as a form of automation.

And that in this scenario, stormtroopers had lateral communications and command authority to them.

fine, but why would this neccesarily prove "the rule" for the Empire? For one thing the Storm troopers are different from the other branches of the military in a number of ways, and for another the Death Star is arguably a different animal from the Empire at large (being a largely self contained secret project under the absolute control of one guy, for one thing.)

[PainRack]

Have you done a comparison of the two? What do you base that off of?

The RAS along with Rebel Snare has the Rebel Alliance constantly concerned about Imperial interception of their communications and security leaks for one.The granting of superiority is just a guess, but given that SW computer analysis is arguably superior to the Imperium based off the New Rebellion novel, one can argue that SW forces enjoy a superior ability to analyze and then disseminate actionable information than the Imperium.

I'd count droid control as a form of automation.

Lol. True. My point was that there existed of some form of counter-checking going on, rather than just blind obedience.

fine, but why would this neccesarily prove "the rule" for the Empire? For one thing the Storm troopers are different from the other branches of the military in a number of ways, and for another the Death Star is arguably a different animal from the Empire at large (being a largely self contained secret project under the absolute control of one guy, for one thing.)

Granted.

[Connor MacLeod]

The RAS along with Rebel Snare has the Rebel Alliance constantly concerned about Imperial interception of their communications and security leaks for one.

Interception of commuincations in what manner? Tracking/catching couriers? Eavesdropping on subspace communications, or what? Context does matter here.

The granting of superiority is just a guess, but given that SW computer analysis is arguably superior to the Imperium based off the New Rebellion novel, one can argue that SW forces enjoy a superior ability to analyze and then disseminate actionable information than the Imperium.

40k computer tech is hard to quantify, other than I vaguely recall it running off crystals suggetsing photonic capability. Another bit from one of the novels had a Space Marine drop pod uploading "thousands" of gigabytes worth of data to a Dreadnought while deploying to the planet (minutes?)

There's also the variability issue.. Guard issue cogitators wont be the same as say, what the Inquisition uses. A big problem on the "infiltration/monitoring" point though is going to be the psychic angle. Nevermind possibilities of mindreading (within limits), but I know it is technically possible for them to use psychic stuff to interpret/read mechical messages (It happened in a short story, IIRC.)

Lol. True. My point was that there existed of some form of counter-checking going on, rather than just blind obedience.

How does that neccesarily follow? We dont know much about the procedures involved with door operations, its largely just guesswork. I mean its entirely possible they do have millions of people manually operating the doors (or millions of droids). SW can be retarded that way.

[PainRack]

Interception of commuincations in what manner? Tracking/catching couriers? Eavesdropping on subspace communications, or what? Context does matter here.

Arguably, in all their aspects. The Imperials have managed to break apart Rebel cells and bases via infiltration, probe droids, the interception of communications...

40k computer tech is hard to quantify, other than I vaguely recall it running off crystals suggetsing photonic capability. Another bit from one of the novels had a Space Marine drop pod uploading "thousands" of gigabytes worth of data to a Dreadnought while deploying to the planet (minutes?)

There's also the variability issue.. Guard issue cogitators wont be the same as say, what the Inquisition uses. A big problem on the "infiltration/monitoring" point though is going to be the psychic angle. Nevermind possibilities of mindreading (within limits), but I know it is technically possible for them to use psychic stuff to interpret/read mechical messages (It happened in a short story, IIRC.)

Its going to be hard to top up the New Rebellion, in which Krugan Death mask was analyzed via a galactic historical search within minutes. Cultural match too.
Not to mention the rapid analysis of the Death Star plans by General Dodonna.

[Connor MacLeod]

Arguably, in all their aspects. The Imperials have managed to break apart Rebel cells and bases via infiltration,

Who does the infiltration? And in what manner? Are we talking about special forces type infiltration, or are we talking cloak and dagger spy and agent stuff? IF its Imperial intelligence doing it, then there are lots of examples of Imperium institutions, least of which being the Inquisition, doing likewise.

probe droids

Devices which are not unknown to the Imperium. The smallest of which being a Servo skull, which is similar to what remotes do in Clone Wars. The Imperium is also known to use orbital satellites (as well as orbiting starships) and IIRC Epic 40K has mentioned recon drones of some type before.

the interception of communications...

The Imperium has done this too. Even with psychic communications, which is something SW arguably cannot do. Psyker powers offer alot of ways of obtaning information from the inanimate that I could think of being useful in this context.

Its going to be hard to top up the New Rebellion, in which Krugan Death mask was analyzed via a galactic historical search within minutes. Cultural match too.

Off the top of my head, one source discussing Ahriman mentions a guy doing a word search on a single inquisitor, through at least global data networks containing accumulated data (over decades if not centuries, and not including millenia of other accumulation) on all sorts of events that may or may not be related, in a matter of hours TOPS (the guy was afraid of getting caught.) A bit on the high end its implied, but there you go.

Not to mention the rapid analysis of the Death Star plans by General Dodonna.

As I recall from Dodonna specific sources, he discovered it in one of those "at the last moment 'AH HA!' revelations' that you usually see towards the end of a STar Trek episode while perusing the data late into the night or something.

Edit: Actually its worse than I feared

At first, the situation seemed hopeless, as the station's defenses exceeded Dodonna's worst fears; the only strategy he could conceive that stood any chance was crashing wave after wave of the Alliance's heaviest vessels into the station, on the slim chance there would be sufficient damage to neutralize it; this would effectively destroy the Rebellion, but would allow a new one to grow without the Death Star threatening them. Dodonna prepared to go to sleep, but instead wandered the halls for fresh air. While doing so, he encountered a small child, weeping over a nightmare about a dragon coming to burn her village. Dodonna comforted her with an old tale of a Jedi Knight finding a hole in the dragon's scaly armor, killing it. Inspired, Dodonna ran back to his quarters and scoured the plans for a similar hole, eventually finding one in the form of a small exposed thermal exhaust port that led directly to the main reactor

[Simon_Jester]

That strikes me as an explanation that can reasonably be treated as "contradicted by movie canon;" there isn't time for Dodonna to be wandering the halls and going to sleep before the enemy shows up, not unless he wants to be killed in his bed when the Death Star blows up the base. Likewise, the story raises the inherent improbability of children being present in the middle of a guerilla base in inhospitable terrain.

And on top of that, Dodonna is established in numerous pieces of low-level canon as a competent tactician, so there is no need to assume that he was inspired to search for a gap in the Death Star defenses by telling a random story to a child.

[PainRack]

[quote="Connor MacLeodWho does the infiltration? And in what manner? Are we talking about special forces type infiltration, or are we talking cloak and dagger spy and agent stuff? IF its Imperial intelligence doing it, then there are lots of examples of Imperium institutions, least of which being the Inquisition, doing likewise.[/quote]
Not able to continue discussion on this aspect. I concede.

Devices which are not unknown to the Imperium. The smallest of which being a Servo skull, which is similar to what remotes do in Clone Wars. The Imperium is also known to use orbital satellites (as well as orbiting starships) and IIRC Epic 40K has mentioned recon drones of some type before.

The servo skull does not have hyperspace capabilities. Similarly, they do not have interstellar communicaions capability.

The Imperium has done this too. Even with psychic communications, which is something SW arguably cannot do. Psyker powers offer alot of ways of obtaning information from the inanimate that I could think of being useful in this context.

The Marvel comics has had telepaths available to the SWU and its mentioned in one of Kevin J Anderson SW guide that there exist telepathic races, which the Empire uses as spies. (The guide in question, said author was a member of such a race, using his telepathic skills for archaelogical purposes).

Its also stunning how....... under-utilised psychic powers are. For example, in Killing Ground, the sanctioned pysker available to the governor was used to spy on local leaders and give information to the governor. Yet, she was utterly unable to locate the existence of the Sons of Salina resistance leaders, which led to the massacre there. To make things worse, she was unable to detect that the local medicae was assisting the resistance movement and had actually hidden and kept Thyler alive.

Off the top of my head, one source discussing Ahriman mentions a guy doing a word search on a single inquisitor, through at least global data networks containing accumulated data (over decades if not centuries, and not including millenia of other accumulation) on all sorts of events that may or may not be related, in a matter of hours TOPS (the guy was afraid of getting caught.) A bit on the high end its implied, but there you go.

The New Rebellion example is an high end source too, but I believe it does trump this. The information was not historical in nature but rather cultural and combed pre Republic cultural legends. All while conducting a population search and historical leader search.

As for Dodonna, I think the radio and movie trumps this. Detailed analysis of the plans had revealed a weakness.....

[Connor MacLeod]

Not able to continue discussion on this aspect. I concede.

If I may ask, why not? I'm a bit puzzled you would claim the capability existing and not being able to reference it more explicitly. Are we talking about the existence of intel officers in the army itself, or something else?

The servo skull does not have hyperspace capabilities.

Granted, but this isnt an inherent capability of the probe droid is it? The droid itself has to be deployed via a single-use pod, and I dont remember how often that was actually employed. IIRC we actually saw them deployed via starship in TESB, for example. Besides which, we KNOW from many sources they still use recon and scout ships, so the probe droids are complementary assets more than anything else.

Could 40K have somethign like that? Perhaps. Weapons technologies exist that can teleport missiles through the warp (Titans can carry them) and psychoportive weaponry is known to exist (soul Drinkers) - likely it would simply be a scaled down and simplified warp vechile, little better than a disposable scout ship (large fighter probably?). Probably bigger than a probe droid, though. More likely they would just use psychic divination of some kind or send a scout or null ship (like they do with the Eye of Terror) or just deploy probes via another ship (again like STar Destroyers)

Similarly, they do not have interstellar communicaions capability.

Probe Droids use Holonet access, which requires the existence of a holonet network to function. I dont know if they carry subspace and the size/capability of such, but I know the "realtime" capability of subspace is VASTLY lower.

The Admech does have what is known as transmat links that use psychic servitors to create some sort of psychic "internet" type hookup (or a separate astropathic network I suppose) but its not neccesarily realtime (not specified.) And given that some astropaths I've seen/read about are little better than psykers themselves, you probably could make some sort of serivtor astropath to simulate FTL transmissions. Would it be common? Probably not, but the capability exists (NL and I once discussed the idea that alot of the FTL "comm/detection" stuff that seems to exist in 40K in a non-astropathic ocntext may just be some complicated form of servitor device which is plausible because the line between 'organic/inorganic" tech for some of 40K's psychic shit is very thin indeed. Hell, Eldar tech even qualifies as "organic" on some level.)

The Marvel comics has had telepaths available to the SWU and its mentioned in one of Kevin J Anderson SW guide that there exist telepathic races, which the Empire uses as spies. (The guide in question, said author was a member of such a race, using his telepathic skills for archaelogical purposes).

Telepathic races also showed up in the NR, as the fleet commander chasing the vagabond in Black Fleet Crisis. That doesnt tell us anything about their range or capabilities relative to the Imperium though. Can they obtain information from inert objects (psychometry), or communicate across interstellar distances? Are they even used as an alterantive means of communication for, say, military forces when the regualr comms are inoperable?

Its also stunning how....... under-utilised psychic powers are. For example, in Killing Ground, the sanctioned pysker available to the governor was used to spy on local leaders and give information to the governor. Yet, she was utterly unable to locate the existence of the Sons of Salina resistance leaders, which led to the massacre there. To make things worse, she was unable to detect that the local medicae was assisting the resistance movement and had actually hidden and kept Thyler alive.

As I recall in The Killing Ground there was that crazy ass undead leader who was some sort of psychic gestalt ghost army that was fucking things up and wanted to kill the regiment responsible for killing them (sort of a mini Emperor, since he was in a coma). IT was bad enough they needed to dispatch Grey Knights at least to deal with them. It was hardly "ideal" conditions to be claiming tht they could be doing all this shit you claim.

In any case, I can think of other examples. Psykers were used to discover the fact Ahriman murdered the Savant who was seeking information on him (as I described before) via psychometry. Eisenhorn did something similar in the third Eisenhorn novel with his astorpath I believe. Astropaths are used to monitor events in the Eye of Terror both from outposts as well as the deployment of null ships as I recall. In Execution hour, one Astropath was able to locate a single man amidst an entire world in uprising, and in the Inquisition War novel the astropath tracked someone even through the warp (a sort of psychic tracking device IIRC).

The New Rebellion example is an high end source too, but I believe it does trump this. The information was not historical in nature but rather cultural and combed pre Republic cultural legends. All while conducting a population search and historical leader search.

The example I quoted also featured not just the search for Czevak's name in relation to specific activitie,s but also involved some osrt of pattern-recognition stuff which ended up tying his activities (and fate) to other events ongoing (about the time of the 13th Black Crusade, and involved reports of the Ulthwe Eldar) which was what led to the discovery of Ahriman's intentions. Whereupon Ahriman appeared and killed the dude. (Which as I noted above, was later uncovered.) I daresay to uncover ANY mention of a particular person over a span of time, particularily one whose data is believed to be almost totally deleted, involves searching far more areas than just the ones you would name. You're actively hunting for something that they think isn't there.

I think similar was done with the Soul Drinkers in the soul Drinkers novels as well.. I'd have to check that. I know the novel Iron Hands had a Techmarine that sifted through thousands of years of computer data (visual and audio and probably textual) to uncover specific answers (what was on the planet, what happened thousands of years ago, etc.) in a matter of minutes, tops, IIRc.

I have to ask though: what's the point of using "high end* examples anyhow? Its not as if we're actually quantifying this stuff (and I have no idea where I'd begin quantifying it, anyhow.)

As for Dodonna, I think the radio and movie trumps this. Detailed analysis of the plans had revealed a weakness.....

Which means.. what exactly? That could just as easily mean "I got this crazy idea in a stupid way and then we did a detailed analysis because I knew where to look" Why should we favor one specific interpretation over another?